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Violence against men category

It qualifies as it was a gendered attack against men for their gender. The edit summaries given by Sceptre are not sufficient imho. Indeed, the edit summary Provide sources that his hatred of men was not out of hatred of women, and we'll talk implies that that it was a gendered attack, so I'm not exactly sure where that fits on the opposing side. However, http://www.politicususa.com/2014/05/27/no-fact-rodgers-killed-men-women-doesnt-change-fact-misogynist.html describes Rodger as hating men as well, and since it was provoked by this, it makes it a gendered attack. Though I do note that it was primarily against women, the men did and were hated by him, evident by his manifesto and videos. Tutelary (talk) 00:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Rodgers didn't hate men for being men, he hated men out of their relationship towards women. There is a strong effort on Misplaced Pages to not paint this as what it was: misogynist violence. And yes, misogynist violence can hurt men too. These two comment pieces – – explain it more than I have the effort or the willingness to. Sceptre 01:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The articles that you're citing make it quite clear that it was a gendered attack against men as well. Therefore I'm a bit confused on why you're so opposed to the category that qualifies as it. I'm not proposing that we remove the 'violence against women' category, but add the 'violence against men' category. The category text Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys. makes it quite clear that they were killed mainly out of spite for taking women, but that is still considered a gender based attack. He hated men, though not overshadowing your point of misogyny, but he did hate men and that would make this a gendered attack against them, thereby fitting the category. Tutelary (talk) 01:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, and Hitler hated Jews because he thought they were less than human, and the KKK hates the blacks because X, and the Westboro Baptist Church hates the gays because they violate god's law. Who cares WHY these lunatics hate someone? Hatred is not some sort of logical chain that you can perform logical operations o - e.g. X hated Y because of Z, therefore, X didn't really hate Y?? It doesn't make any sense. Many analyses have said that his hatred of women actually derives from his own failings to achieve the masculine ideal. And maybe his failings to achieve the masculine ideal stem from our society. and maybe our society stems from 1000 years of patriarchy. and maybe 1000 years of patriarchy derives from... We don't need to do root causal analysis just to place a category - his clear and often-reported hatred of men and, most importantly, the fact that men were targeted as victims of his violence is the important thing. Even if we accept that men were victims BECAUSE of misogyny, it is still gendered violence against men, and reliable sources POINTED OUT that misogyny can harm men, thus the category is clearly relevant.

The key question is, was any of his violence motivated by hatred for men? Let's look at sources:

"But his hatred of femininity is tangled with hatred of other men—and himself"

"As long as masculinity is based in hatred of and fear of femininity, it will be expressed in violence—against men, against gay people, and against the marginalized. And most of all, it will continue to motivate violence against women.”

"Rodger’s male victims included men he envied as well as roommates he perceived as getting in his way."

"It is not uncommon for men who resent women to take out their aggressions on other men, but unlike public violence against women, male-on-male attacks slip more easily underneath our cultural radar."

"Elliot Rodger targeted women out of entitlement, their male partners out of jealousy, and unrelated male bystanders out of expedience. This is not ammunition for an argument that he was a misandrist at heart—it’s evidence of the horrific extent of misogyny’s cultural reach."

"Sure, we can admit that we hated men, but only if we accept that his hatred for men stemmed from his feeling of entitlement towards women."

"The reason why he hated men was because they received the thing he thought he deserved," she said. "He did not think he was entitled to men's bodies. He did not think he was entitled to sexual submission from men. What he was resentful about was that some men got those privileges and he did not. So that was part and parcel of his sexism and part and parcel of his misogyny."

Thus, sources seem to pretty much agree that he hated men, and that he targeted, directly, men that he hated, and several men died or were shot. Now, the bulk of sources claim that the root cause of his hatred of men is actually misogyny. Fine, we don't need to argue that here - the reliable sources are all competing to decide who gets to be the root cause. But you're misunderstanding the category. The violence against women category is not "Violence, based in the final root cause analysis, on misogyny", and the violence against men category is not "Violence, based on final root cause analysis, on misandry". A single level of gendered hatred suffices, and both his manifesto AND reliable sources note his hatred of men - we don't need to to final root cause analysis. If a guy goes to shoot up a school full of girls and shoots the male guard, fine, that's not "violence against men" - but that's NOT what happened here. When the Taliban slaughter girls at a school, we don't say "Well, their hatred of women stems from radical interpretations of Islam, therefore, it's not really violence against women" - NO. From whence that hatred of men derives is not that relevant, it doesn't DIMINISH his hatred of men, and this hatred was expressed very clearly in his manifesto and, begrudgingly in some cases, accepted by reliable sources. The Violence against men category is about gendered violence, men targeted because they were men. The sources above demonstrate that he hated men and that he targeted men that he hated - this was not random. This also does not diminish the misogyny, nor the violence against women. Categories are NOT either/or - we can have both. When someone sets off a bomb in Iraq at a market, and men women and children are killed, we don't call that gendered violence, since specific genders aren't targeted. Here, we do have gendered violence, on BOTH sides (the Srebrenica massacre is a similar example of gendered violence on both sides - men were slaughtered, and women were raped) - thus this was also a case of both violence against men AND violence against women, in both cases based on gender).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Rodgers clearly expressed hatred toward men and killed them. However, he indicated he hated a subset of men, sexually active men. According to the sources, his hatred of men was fueled by his rage that other men had sexual access to women, while he did not, so they deserved to be punished. He hated women because they were women and hated men because of their access to women. I'm not sure the "Violence against men category" fits here because he did not seem to target men for being men. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:53, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• Note: Previously discussed at Talk:2014_Isla_Vista_killings/Archive_1#Violence_against_men_category. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if he hated only a subset of men - see my examples below for "subsets of men" that were nonetheless targeted for violence. Sexually-active men with access to women - and hating them and wanting to kill them - is a classic example of a gendered target. It's not "I wanna kill everyone" - it's "I want to kill people of this gender that did this, and people of that gender who did that"--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Let's look further at Srebrenica - this is a classic example, oft-spoken of, of violence against men - something like 8000 men were massacred. Now, was this done BECAUSE the Serbs just hated men? Probably not. Did they hate everyone, like Rodgers seemed to? Probably not either - I assume the Serb killers went home to their wives and families afterwards and had beers with their friends - like Nazi death camp guards, they were probably rather ordinary people. The Serbs hated muslims, more specifically Bosniaks, and they enacted that hatred by gender-separating the men and boys and slaughtering them, and then later, raping the women. In both cases these are incidences of gender-based violence since the violence was discriminate, but stemming perhaps from a deeper hatred of a whole people. Did the Nazis hate Greek men when they massacred all the men in a village at Massacre_of_Kalavryta? It's hard to say, they were an occupying army, and wanted to punish the village. So maybe they didn't hate all greeks, maybe they just hated the greeks in that village - the massacre of men was unlikely to be caused by hatred of men, but it's nonetheless a prime example of VIOLENCE against men. Sceptre is confusing the root cause final cause analysis of that motivation - with the proximate hatred that he expressed towards men and the direct violence he enacted against them as a result. Now, you may claim "No, it was gender-based violence against the women, but it wasn't gender-based violence against the men, they were just in his way" - but that's not what the sources above state, they state that he targeted men he was jealous of, he targeted men that he hated! The violence against women category is full of instances of violence against women that aren't driven by misogyny - sometimes mental illness, sometimes "extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code" 2002_Mecca_girls'_school_fire, there are always analysis of proximate and deeper causes, but that doesn't matter for categorization, what matters is whether violence was enacted against people based on their gender, and we have strong evidence that both men and women were targeted accordingly.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

We can also do a very simplified hypothetical. Suppose a killer posts a video saying "I hate all of you women, I can't stand you. To punish you, I'm going to kill all of your boyfriends and husbands" - and then goes on to massacre their boyfriends and husbands. Articles will say "Well, this was clearly motivated by hatred of women" - ok, fine, but it was still "violence against men"! A more complex version is what actually happened here - he didn't just hate women, he also hated men - perhaps he only hated a certain type of men - e.g. ones who had sex with women - but that's still a pretty broad list, and that list remains gendered, and his violence was accordingly gendered. We should also look for sources to see if this was also racially motivated - I think all of his roommates killed were Asians, and he seemed to despise Asians.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

As far as we know, none of the men he killed was with a woman at the time. As far as we know, he didn't know whether any of them were sexually active. All of them could have been virgins just like him, for all he knew. Whatever the ideas beneath his rage, they didn't seem to affect which men he chose to kill. So it doesn't make sense to form ANY kind of link between those ideas and those killings. Mandruss (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

see the quote above: "Rodger’s male victims included men he envied as well as roommates he perceived as getting in his way." - not all victims were killed, fwiw.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

That's very much the point. He didn't know whether they were virgins or bachelors, he didn't know that those men weren't the ones who had countered him. He killed them because of his hatred for their gender, and that's the point of the category. Look above with Obi's links to the reliable sources, stating his hatred for men. I thought this was a plain cut dispute giving the reliable sources, but it appears to not be. Tutelary (talk) 02:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

As far as we know, none of the women Rodger killed rejected Rodger or even knew him. I think Rodger's stated motive and why victims were targeted matters for the category. The victims who were strangers to Rodger were white, does that mean this belongs in a category "violence against whites"? I'd say no because according to his stated motive he did not target whites for being white. Similarly, he did not target men for being men but he was very clear on targeting women for being women. I saw no sources that indicated Rodger hated men for being men but rather for their (imagined) relation to women. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The root cause of the root cause of the root cause doesn't matter Bobo. He hated men, and RS sources point out that he targeted men, as well as women. Again, I point you to how these categories are being used for every other article - do the Taliban hate women for being women, or because that's how their interpretation of the Koran instructs them, or because that's what they were taught in school? It doesn't matter for the category to apply - if someone targets women for violence, the category fits. He targeted men for violence, that much is clear.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:00, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

According to that category it is supposed to reflect "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys.". I don't think this case fits. I don't think his violence against men was gender based. I actually don't care that much either way, but personally, if I were to go to that category to find articles on "gender based violence against men", I wouldn't be looking for stories like this. This isn't gender based violence against men imo. I think adding this to the category does a disservice to the category and those who might wish to use that category to find a specific type of article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

So his attack on women was gender based, but his attack on men was not? Sources disagree with you Bobo. His manifesto goes into extreme detail on how much he hates men. From CNN: "He also said he despised men who had luck with women and said he would eliminate them, too. "I will kill them all and make them suffer, just as they have made me suffer," he added. "It is only fair."" . How can you imagine that this isn't gender-based violence on both sides? This wasn't "I'm going to kill the sorority girls, and any security guards who happen to be in the way" - this was "I'm going to kill women because X, and I'm going to kill men because Y". Both genders were targeted, explicitly. When someone says "I'm going to kill all men", we obviously consider that gender-based violence. If someone says "I'm going to kill all men over the age of 15", that is still gender-based violence. If someone says "I'm going to kill all men who are more sexually successful than me" again, that is STILL gender.. based... violence.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Support: The sources do appear to support that this was a misandrist as well as a misogynist-motivated attack. I support inclusion of the category. Cla68 (talk) 07:07, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support the inclusion of the category violence against men based on the sourcing and the location he specifically chose to target. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support - reading parts of his manifesto as well as RS coverage, this guy hated some men and women, and it's easily demonstrated he lashed out at both. I'll be so bold as to say that making this only about women is political, not encyclopedic.Mattnad (talk) 18:40, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Question - Have reliable sources used the word "misandry" or "misandrist" to describe Elliot Rodger? I've seen many RS refer call Rodger misogynistic, but only seen the misandrist label given to him by non-neutral groups such as mens rights advocate, blogs, comments section of articles, etc. What I'm hearing from a lot of supporters of the category sounds like "I read his stuff and deemed it misandrist" or "his actions seem like misandry to me" and while that may be a very reasonable conclusion, that's original research or synthesis. To be encyclopedic, we need to simply reflect the reliable sources. Have reliable sources specifically labeled him a misandrist? --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The terms 'misandry' and 'misandrist' are not requirements to add the 'violence against men' cat nor any other cat (that I'm aware of). The cat specifically refers to gender-based violence, which is what Rodgers had committed, and Obi had demonstrated a few posts up. Also, I am all for sticking to the sources, which is why we cited them in terms of him hating against men and for the attacks. Though him being a 'misandrist' as demonstrated by reliable sources is not required to add the category, just the demonstration of gender based violence. Also, the sources cited (as you can see above in Obi's post, he demonstrated it rather clearly) that the sources did describe him as hating men. We're not arguing for the addition of a 'misandrist' cat (if such one exists), but purely for the cat already being discussed. One last thing; just because a source is biased does not mean we can't use it. See WP:BIASED. There may be other factors that may disqualify its credibility, but being biased is not one of them. Tutelary (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

It's undeniable Rodger killed males and was full of hatred, but the violence against men category says it is specifically for "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys." I do not think the reliable sources have established his killing of males was gender based. If we are going to add this to the violence against men category, seems we could go ahead and add Columbine and World Trade Center attack and countless other cases where clearly men were killed and the killers expressed hatred, but seems that category is specifically looking for gender based hatred, and I'm simply trying to determine if the RS state Rodgers had gender based hatred of men.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't even know how to parse "gender-based hatred of men" - what other kind is there? Or are you suggesting he harbored gender-based hatred of women, but had no such feelings about men, and just killed them incidentally? Did you actually read his manifesto?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I gave plenty of examples above of RS who claim that he hated men - and not just individual men, but broad cross-sections of men.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:20, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Do they use a phrases such as "Rodgers was a guy who hated men"? Seems the sources state he hated men who he imagined had sexual access to the women he felt entitled to. Reading over his stuff, the guy seemed full of hate, but have reliable sources said Rodger hated men or used word "misandry" or "misandrist" to describe him?--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Please see the sources I linked at the top, and yes the sources say that. Maybe he didn't hate all men, I'm not sure, but he certainly hated large numbers of them, e.g. any sexually successful man, which is Isla Vista a college party town was probably lots of them.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• support inclusion of category, per arguments given above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Some excellent arguments above. It's just as worthy of inclusion as the violence against women category.--Shakehandsman (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I'd call it misomania, the syndrome characterized by delusions of persecution and hatred. Not au currant, but most accurate. I don't think a misogynist would lust after women. I don't think a misandrist could have lived with male roommates or have had a relationship with a little brother. But he clearly had portions of misogyny and misandry, just not the complete package in either case. That misomania includes delusions of persecution seems right to me. snug (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Note: we're not discussing adding the Category:Misandry category here, this is about the Category:Violence against men category. I pointed out elsewhere that many instances of violence against women are not necessarily driven by misogyny, and acts of violence against men aren't all driven by misandry - all that is necessary is someone is targeted for violence based on their gender. The sources above establish this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The category "violence against men" is a subcategory of the "Misandry" category. Similarly, the category "violence against women" is a subcategory of "Misogyny" category. There appears to be some misunderstanding of the category purpose. Just because men (or women) were targeted violently doesn't make the article appropriate for either of those categories. For example, the World Trade Center attack and Columbine are not included in the violence against men or women categories, even though men and women died, because for inclusion in these categories, it needs to be gender based violence. I have not seen any RS that say Rodger engaged in gender based violence against men, but I have seen multiple[REDACTED] editors arguing that they interpret various things they read in reliable sources that way. I've repeatedly asked for RS quotes that clearly say Rodger was either a misandrist or clearly describe his violence against men as gender based violence. I'm still waiting for such quotes. These quotes are easy to find with respect to Rodger and Misogyny/gender based violence against women, but not so about Misandry/gender based violence against men. All I've seen so far is arguments that editors here think it was misandry or gender based violence against men, but we need to find a reliable sources interpreting it that way, not just[REDACTED] editors intrepreting it that way. BTW, I'm by no means saying the interpretation is unreasonable, but it can't just be our interpretation. Please find quotes from commentators from reliable sources that clearly interpret Rodger's violence against men as gender based violence and/or call Rodger a misandrist, if you want to place the article in this category. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't read too much into that parenting structure of the categories. While violence against men and women can be a manifestation of misandry and misogyny, it isn't always the case - and it's besides the point. You're asking for the sources to say one very particular set of words, and refusing all of the other words the sources are using - like the fact that he targeted men he was jealous of (that comes from CNN), or that he proposed a virus that would eliminate all of the men, or that his manifesto detailed how he wanted to kill the sexually successful men he saw around him, and then, he does so- killing several, wounding several others. And you seem to forget that his targeting of men was not random - he butchered his roommates with a knife, before doing anything else. We're not talking about 9/11 here, this was personal, gender-based violence that both men and women were victims of. i suggest you re-read the sources I provided above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I verify that violence against men is a subcategory of misandry. I also think misogyny and misandry and their subcategories are too small to capture Rodger's issues. A little like convicting Capone on tax evasion. snug (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

We don't have a misanthropy category for now...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Just putting my thoughts in to this. Does the addition mean he killed men or that he killed them because they were men? from the manifesto (that is generally believed to be his motive) it seems the women were killed because they were women and the attempt at the sorority house was inspired by this. then again, he did seem to kill in discriminatory, which gives the idea that, in intent, he wanted to kill lots of women, but in reality, he killed people on both gender. If anything they should both be removed, although in that, we have the issue that we are removing somebody who frequently contributed to anti-female hate websites and wrote an anti-female manifesto not categorised by his shooting of women. it's sort of like if somebody posted on anti-jewish websites and wrote an anti-jewish manifesto but killed jewish people and non-jewish people in a similar shooting. would Misplaced Pages categorise by both even though his sentiments were pejoratively against women? he was not a misandronist but he did murder men. How do you categorise by that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.191.143 (talk) 13:36, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

"Would Misplaced Pages categorise by both?" I think the answer is no. The vast majority of sources describe this as violence against women, based on evidence such as his manifesto. The rest is really academic; I can't find any sources categorising this as anti-male violence, so that category doesn't warrant inclusion. Secondly, the argument against removing the "violence against women category" — namely "he hated men too" — is a fringe viewpoint of conservative op-eds, and there are much more voices stating that deal with what is effectively a logical fallacy of saying "therefore he wasn't a misogynist". To remove the VAW category on that basis — as has happened several times — is a violation of WP:UNDUE. So is stating that his murder of his flatmates was for any other reason than to turn his apartment into a torture chamber and killing room, as there are no sources to that effect. Sceptre 13:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

While most sources fixate on his anger towards women, there are some that mention he had issues with men as well. That there are more sources focusing on his hatred of women is more a product of the success that women's rights groups and feminist theory has had raising awareness of societal inequality. There are more voices out there who have been educated with that perspective (myself included - I took nearly dozen courses on feminist theory, and women's literature in college). Your hypothesis about why he killed his roommates is interesting, but not really relevant. I'm a little surprised by the pushback on including this category. It's not like we're saying that there was no violence against women - both can coexist.Mattnad (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a hypothesis, it was a well covered aspect of his manifesto; example source. Sceptre 20:10, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

This has also been discussed as a possible race-based issue that intersected with gender. see - his racist ravings were mostly directed at men of color, not people of color more generally. so it had an intersection of gender + race involved. also covers how he posted specific messages of hate about black and asian men (he considered himself to be "white").--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

All which, I hasten to note, still doesn't warrant the VAM category. Sceptre 16:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support However Obi-Wan please don't mention anything about race being involved, it will take away from the feminists wanting this incident to be solely about women and the female gender. Mattnad they cannot co-exist with feminists, that's not how it works. Feminists thrive on victimhood, that is how they get their power. If males/men can also be victims (in various ways throughout society), then that means feminist women will lose some of their power. If men can also be victims it exposes the feminist lie/propaganda tool of "patriarchy". NotHowItWorks (talk) 03:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• " This template must be substituted.

@NotHowItWorks:, please consider editing your comment to not group all feminists together. This is an emotionally charged topic, but I think we should focus on our reasons for adding or removing the category without decrying large groups of people.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

So it's categorized under both violence against women and violence against men? Is there some other gender that he was neutral about? Or is this simply a hate crime by a severely warped individual, driven by jealousy. He even wanted to kill his own brother. That wasn't "gender-driven", any more than were the other mass-shootings in the news the last few years. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the case. There are other examples of same, but rarely with a spree killer like this. You would never gain consensus to remove this from Category:Violence against women and that category is clearly applicable - the question is was his targeting of the other men based on their gender? I believe so - because he named them as "men" and critiqued their specific sexual access to women, which is a gendered role. He wasn't jealous of rich people, he was jealous of and wanted to kill specifically men ( as well as women, obviously). His brother was a different issue, that one seems more personal to me - so this killing is full of motives of all sorts.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't we have RS that supports this prior to voting?

I haven’t voted because I'm not sure a vote is appropriate yet. If we had reliable sources, even only a few, or even just one, that described this as a gender based attack on men, or referred to Rodger as a misandrist, then a vote would seem appropriate. However, as far as I can see, we have zero reliable sources which describe the Isla Vista attack as a gender based attack on men. Rather, what we have are some editors who have referred to content and quotes in reliable sources, and then come to conclusion that it was misandry/gender based attack on men based on things they pulled out of various articles, while the sources themselves did not come to that conclusion. As far as I can tell regarding[REDACTED] policy, it shouldn't work this way. First we need a reliable source commentator, not a wiki editor, coming to conclusion that Rodger was a misandrist, or that this was gender based attack on men.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

re "misandrist", that isn't required - the category is not "Violence inspired by or primarily driven by misandry". The sources are already given above, in any case, illustrating that he hated sexually successful men and targeted them as part of his rampage.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

To be specific, the "violence against men category" is a subcategory of "misandry" and is described as "gender based violence against men and boys." Above, you made it clear that you interpreted things in RS as supporting gender based violence against men with respect to these killings, but as far as I can see, those sources didn't come to that conclusion, you did. We need a reliable source commentator calling it misandry or gender based violence against men. If we can find even one reliable source that does either of these things, I would support a vote, but at present we don't have that. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It's plain from how the Violence against Men and Women categories are used that they are not simply intended for any act of violence where the victims were men or women. For the categories to be useful, their scope needs to be observed properly, and that means reliable sources that show that the category is applicable. As of right now including the category is OR. You can't vote to override policy. -- TaraInDC (talk) 20:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

We've already discussed the RS above, so I'm not going to repeat them here. It is clear from those sources that Rodgers intended to target males that he hated, his manifesto is full of hatred towards these males, and a number of men were killed or wounded, painting them as bystanders in a purely misogynistic crime is POV and not supported by sources.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but like I keep saying, I see there are RS quotes above, and I agree that wiki editors here have looked at those quotes and interpreted those quotes to mean either that Rodger was a misandrist, or that this was a gender based attack against men, however, that is the view of the wiki editors only, the reliable sources above do not come to the conclusion that Rodger was a misandrist or that these attacks were gender based violence against men. Unless, I'm missing something. If even one reliable source comes to that conclusion, please link it here and I will withdraw my objection to the voting.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

By that logic any hate-motivated violence against someone who has a gender is gendered violence. Sources demonstrate that he hated men who had sexual access to women, but not that he targeted men for being men. -- TaraInDC (talk) 20:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

By that logic, this wouldn't belong in the violence against women category, because he hated mainly women who rejected him. All of his victims were college-age, he didn't shoot at grandmothers or school girls. In both cases, his hatred of a gender was focused on a subset of that gender - attractive women who spurned him, and sexually active men who had access to those same women. Just because there was context to his hatred of men, it remains the fact that he targeted these men because they were men + (their access to these women).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

By that logic, this wouldn't belong in the violence against women category, because he hated mainly women who rejected him. This is incorrect, and not supported by the sources. The killer's misogyny is well sourced and well supported. The claim that he hated men, or wanted to kill men, specifically for being men is not similarly sourced. -- TaraInDC (talk) 20:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

See the sources above, which demonstrate otherwise. I don't think he hated "all" men, any more than he hated "all" women, but he certainly did hate certain subsets of men and targeted them for death.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not relevant what you or I think: what's relevant is what the sources say, and having sources that say that he hated some men for specific reasons is very different from sources saying that he hated men for being men. Hating particular members of a group is not the same thing as hating the group itself. We have sources for this being violence motivated by misogyny, but not for it being gendered violence against men. -- TaraInDC (talk) 21:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

For example, from the CNN source, "The incident made him realize he "was capable of killing them," he wrote. "I wanted to kill them slowly, to strip the skins off their flesh. They deserve it. The males deserve it for taking the females away from me, and the females deserve it for choosing those males instead of me." . He didn't divide the world into "female" and "everyone else who I might randomly kill otherwise on my way to kill females" - instead he had specific targets of men he hated. When he got out of the car and walked into the deli to shoot one man there, he knew he was shooting a man. We have sources above that note that he targeted men he was jealous of, and planned to kill them, and he succeeded in killing or wounding several. He hated a lot of people, but it's not true to state that he only hated "particular" men - he hated broad subsets of men - e.g. basically any college-age man who had sex, which is a lot...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

But it's still a logical leap to go from 'he hated men who had sex' to calling this gendered violence against men. The sourcing for the violence against women category is much stronger and does not require that type of logical leap. Calling this gendered violence against men when the targets were men who had sexual access to women is original research, because we have to interpret what sources are saying rather than simply report what they're saying, as we can for the violence against women category. -- TaraInDC (talk) 21:34, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I've successfully avoided this debate, but I'll offer some observations. (1) There is disagreement about the meaning and intent of the categories; (2) Each side has made its position clear and is understood by the other side; (3) Neither side is changing its mind or giving up. We might as well be debating religion or party politics. It seems to me it's time to give up on the debate and seek a determination by an outside group, but I don't know what mechanisms exist for that. Dispute resolution? Mandruss (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right. It could probably go on like this forever. Since this has been called OR, I brought issue to WP:Original research noticeboard. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

• I disagree with listing this in the category Violence against men. The motivation for the killings wasn't hatred of men (in general), it was jealousy of sexually active men (and extreme anger and frustration towards women), so I don't see a reason to consider it a true gender-based crime. Kaldari (talk) 17:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Is that also a requirement for Category:Violence against women? e.g., in order for an event to be listed in Category:Violence against women, the perpetrator must have stated and be acting based on a hatred of all women? That's not how the category was used traditionally. Rather, it has been used for instances where people were targeted for violence, IN PART, based on their gender (many other reasons come into violence, such as religious hatred, ethnic hatred, political reasons, jealousy, etc) - do you really think your average garden variety rapist hates "ALL WOMEN" and that his rape of a single woman is an express of hatred of "all women"?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:07, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

For the category "violence against women", it appears the reliable sources either need to call the perpetrator a misogynist or alternately, reliable source commentators need to come to the conclusion that it was gender based violence against women. We have neither of these with the Isla Vista killings. However, I would not be at all surprised if there are articles in the category "violence against women" that are miscategorized, but that's not a good argument to also miscategorize here. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:21, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps that's the problem, and maybe this is best solved by having a broader discussion about inclusion criteria for both of these categories. However, it is a complete red herring to say "the killer didn't hate all males, he only hated some of them" - that is not the inclusion criteria, the gendered nature of the relationships these males had with women that he desired sexually was the driver of his hatred and the reason for his targeting of them, he made this quite clear and reliable sources make this quite clear.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The inclusion criteria is "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys." Based on one reading, which is the one being done here, the violence, which was directed by the killers anger against the gender "women" and the sub-category of gender "men who get to have sex with women," which also involved stabbing and shooting men, it is valid for inclusion - because the category in question was created as a violation of WP:POINT to push a POV. The violence was gender based (against women) and some men or boys. However, I ignore that rule, and remove the category. "men who get to have sex with women" is not a gender. Hipocrite (talk) 22:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I have a suggestion since this debate/conversation has gone on and on and there still seems to be two very differing opinions on what to do. As I see it this person Elliot Rodger was a deranged lunatic (most likely suffering from a mental disorder and almost certainly suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder) who hated just about everyone if you read his writings. How about we remove both categories, since in some way having them there almost legitimizes Rodger as a sane person. I always felt that neither category was appropriate, and almost sort of silly seeing as how crazy and out-of-touch with reality the guy was. NotHowItWorks (talk) 05:13, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll give you points for suggesting a solomonic decision. This may be the way to go, although I don't see how having both makes him appear sane. It's not as if his hatred of both men and women somehow cancels each other out. Still, my mind boggles at the double standard - Rodger hated those women he desired (a subset of women) which prompted violence against some women, but somehow his hatred towards men who had relationships with these same women (a subset of men) did not prompt violence against some men. I can readily accept the duality. I have to questions the logic (and motivations) of those who cannot. Still, if we cannot have one cat, then it would follow we cannot have the other.Mattnad (talk) 12:19, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

As I see it this person Elliot Rodger was a deranged lunatic (most likely suffering from a mental disorder and almost certainly suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder) But it's not about how any of us sees it, it's about how secondary sources see it. That's pretty much Misplaced Pages Principle Number One. You, presumably not a mental health professional, just based a large part of your argument on your own amateur diagnosis (almost certainly - really?), ignoring the fact that it is well established that Rodger was never formally diagnosed with anything, let alone Narcissistic Personality Disorder!. We simply can't do that. By the way, a mental health professional would never offer a diagnosis without having examined the subject, or if he did he would be putting his career at risk. Mandruss (talk) 12:50, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Mandruss and am concerned that so many still don't seem to understand how it works on[REDACTED] (or is suppose to work). We don't go by what we, as wiki editors, think is reasonable or fair. We go by the reliable sources. RS have been very clear in calling Rodger a misogynist and this gender based violence against women, so removing violence against women cateogry would be violation of due weight. Zero RS (that anyone has been able to produce) have called Rodger a misandrist or come to the conclusion that this was gender based violence against men. All we have are wiki editors cherry picking quotes out of RS and saying those quotes mean to them that it was gender based violence against men, when the sources themselves did not come to that conclusion. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

If we were going by reliable sources, then we'd include the VAM category. The tortured logic used to dismiss it is not WP:RS in the least. You can't have it both ways.Mattnad (talk) 14:32, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

If there was even one reliable source that calls Rodger a misandrist, or one reliable source commentator that comes to the conclusion that this was gender based violence against men, the voting would make sense, and keeping category in article while we debate would seem OK too, but currently we have zero such sources. All we currently have is wiki editors cherrypicking quotes out of various articles and saying those quotes mean to them that this is gender based violence against men, while the sources themselves did not come to that conclusion. If someone has managed to find a reliable source that calls Rodger a misandrist or a reliable source that comes to the conclusion that this was gender based violence against men, please link it here, as that would significantly change the course of the debate. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

There's no requirement in the category that he had to be a misandrist. That's your invention. The category only requires that "men" were targeted because they were men. There's no cherry picking when multiple reliable sources say he "hated men" and there's no dispute he killed several and injured others. It's at this point when the tortured logic, and arbitrary criteria starts to come in that he had to hate ALL men. I'll add that there is no similar requirement for the Violence against women category. So in it you find it attached to articles relating to war such Declaration on the Protection of Women and Children in Emergency and Armed Conflict.Mattnad (talk) 19:07, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to be very clear about what's going on here since it's the "elephant in the room", so to speak. The reason there are no RS showing Rodger was a misandrist is because the media and news organizations are going to follow the standard line of thinking, which is that any violent event where women were targeted must mean this was simply a woman-hating misogynist attack. They can't accept any complexity when it comes to gender issues (very politically correct) and can't accept the fact that maybe this lunatic Rodger also hated men. NotHowItWorks (talk) 22:52, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

"There aren't any sources because they're concealing the truth!". Sorry, this ain't conspiracypedia. Sceptre 23:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

No conspiracy. That's just the way it is in terms of mainstream media and journalists. And I'm completely sure that Sceptre is neutral and unbiased, she only identifies as a queer, lesbian, trans, feminist activist... NotHowItWorks (talk) 01:00, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey, Not, that's uncalled for. We have all types here, and everyone is entitled to participate and everyone is expected to edit according to NPOV no matter how they identify. You may say "Sceptre's edit here appeared to violate NPOV because x, y, z" but picking on sceptre b/c of how they've revealed themselves on their homepage isn't fair, I suggest you strike. Thanks,--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Being a new editor, Not, you may not know what Mr. Kenobi means by "strike". It means retracting a prior statement in a discussion. It's considered better form to draw a line through it rather than delete it outright. To do that, you put <s> and </s> around the text you want to strike. Also you might want to read some of WP:AGF. One good way to make Misplaced Pages fail is to start questioning the motives and objectivity of editors who disagree with us. Mandruss (talk) 02:14, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Correct. However, to be fair, I've been accused of POV pushing and misogyny more times than I can count since the whole category tree of Category:Violence against men was put up to be deleted, and I've dished out my own accusations of POV from time to time. It happens. However, I do think it is going a step further to accuse someone of POV because of their gender, sexuality, or what not, as opposed to "You're pushing a feminist POV b/c you're an avowed radfem" - we all know that sort of POV pushing happens, but while one can choose their political views, one can't really chose one's gender or sexuality. I guess my point is, you will definitely see and be subject to accusations of POV pushing, and occasionally you may suggest that an editor is pushing a POV - just don't try to tie that POV to their stated or assumed gender or sexuality, that in my mind takes it a bit too far, and makes it a touch too personal. Does that make sense? Of course, it's better to never accuse someone of pushing a POV, but we aren't all saints...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources that explicitly state Rodger hated men and committed very violent acts against them. What's at work here is that a few editors have created an artificial threshold (with no similar equivalent in the VAW category) that it must be called "misandry" if we want consider the violence as an act against men and include the category. They are so motivated that they'd rather eliminate the VAM category completely than have any mention that Rodger hated men and women. RS samples below:Mattnad (talk) 23:52, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Perhaps the most prominent theme through Rodger's autobiography is envy—his envy of everyone who was succeeding where he was failing. He not only hated women for not fulfilling his needs, but he hated men for being successful with women.,
• "Elliot had made it very clear to his friend that he hated men who could attract women",
• ....{his hatred of women} was only a subset of a general hatred of humanity, and was matched by hatred of men who had better romantic and sexual success....Some have argued that hating other men because they get to have sex with women and you don't is still a form of misogyny; but that seems like a good example of stretching the concept into meaninglessness—or turning it into unfalsifiable quasi-religious dogma.

Sceptre, there is a consensus for inclusion of the category, and claiming that 'there are no sources' when there are at least 20 is misleading at best. Tutelary (talk) 05:21, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

• Given the amount of controversy regarding considering these killings a gendered act of violence against men combined with the guidance provided by Misplaced Pages:Categorisation#Articles, it's more or less clear that these killings don't belong in catVAM even if some sources consider them such. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:34, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Controversy does not merely exclude a category from being added. Additionally, what counts as consensus for one article may not count as consensus for another. See the discussion at the very top of the page, where multiple editors !voted to include the category per the sources that Obi garnered. That was the consensus that the editor who reverted was talking about. Additionally, I'd like to hear specific qualms about this category which you're talking about. It's clear from the sources that this was a gendered attack against the men who he was envious about, and a gendered attack against women who would not sleep with them. It easily fits into both categories; violence against men in north america and violence against women. Tutelary (talk) 01:41, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

It's clear from the sources that some sources considered it to be gendered violence against men. It's also clear from taking a quick look at reliable sources about the incident that there are more than a few sources that don't consider the shootings to have represented a gendered act of violence against men. And WP:Categorisation makes it pretty clear that in the event that sources disagree about whether or not a cat applies, the cat shouldn't be put in the article. Although WP:Categorisation is only a guideline rather than policy, I don't see a strong enough consensus on this page to overrule it. (Despite my barb against Cla in my editsum, I hadn't noted the existing talk page discussion before changing the cat, as I had just been going through a tree of related cats, or I would've participated in it before making a change.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 02:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Image

I'd like to start a discussion on inserting an image of Elliot Rodger into the 'perpetrator' section, as it is encyclopedic for people to see the shooter in this instance. For precedent, see other major shooting articles, like Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting and 2012_Aurora_shooting. Tutelary (talk) 01:45, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a particular image in mind? Mandruss (talk) 02:01, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Since we may be allowed to use fair use regard in this, it's not limited to simply freely available images. Although if we do use the 'fair use' exception, someone else will need to write a fair use rationale for it, as I'm not really qualified to do so. I don't have any particular image in mind, though it does need to necessitate 'not over the top' criteria. So him smiling I think wouldn't be appropriate. Just to start this discussion off, how about this image? http://i.imgur.com/Fo1Qc3W.jpg (Though a fair use rationale may disqualify this one, as I believe it might qualify for only low-medium resolution images.Tutelary (talk) 02:09, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I generally think images add to an article, but I've yet to be inclined to learn all that copyright crap. I'm even less qualified than you, I'm sure. This article has been a pretty lonely place for a few days, so you may have to seek help with that elsewhere. Mandruss (talk) 02:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I did a search a while back looking for images for this article at WM, none of Rodger I could find, plenty of Isla Vista and the college campus though. It's really a fairly simple process to upload an image, if you use this upload wizard, it pretty much walks you through it step by step. For example, in this photo of Lanza, if you look below it, you will see a section titled "Summary", these are the questions you will have to answer when you upload the image through the wizard. Immediately after you upload an image under the fair use rationale, it will be tagged for review, and usually if it's going to be deleted for some reason, it's actually pretty quick. The "purpose of use in article" and "not replaceable with free media because" questions are really important to get right as the answer to those questions will be scrutinized closely. This policy WP:IUP is a good place to start.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 14:53, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I've uploaded the image and given it a fair use rationale. I'm not sure if I botched it or not, I guess we'll have to see. Though I know the resolution is a problem...I don't know how to fix that. Tutelary (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Nice try. The image was deleted, and along with it my path to the related talk page. I would have been interested in the rationale, if any additional was given. Where is the copyright issue when the image was a screen shot from a video whose author is deceased? Did his parents inherit the copyright? Mandruss (talk) 03:01, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I challenged the deletion in this post: User talk:TLSuda#Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion.2F2014 June 16.23File:Elliot Rodger Screenshot From Youtube Video.jpg; the closing admin gave an expanded explanation for the deletion. I still disagree with the decision, but fear it will stand.—D'Ranged 1 VT 20:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. For me, it was mostly about article aesthetics---in the Internet age, we're used to having some pictures mixed with the text. I'd bet money that most GA articles have a tasteful number of images. I'd also bet money that many of the images in GA articles aren't critical to one's understanding of those articles; they merely enhance understanding, or even just enhance aesthetics. But there will always be an abundance of Elliot Rodger photos just a Google away, for those who want to know what he looked like. Mandruss (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Roommates

Clarification on the roommates is now available in the LA Times article. Can simplify discussion of victims now.snug (talk) 14:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

In fact, the victims section should be slightly expanded with a bit more information on each victim, just a bit. The article feels too asymmetric... too much info on Rodger, too little on the victims.snug (talk) 00:11, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

We could try something like in the infobox here. Gives "just a bit" more while keeping things neat and uncluttered. Mandruss (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is a step in the right direction. Probably an explanatory sentence in the `victims' section for each group would be useful. That Hong & Wang were (randomly selected) roommates and Chen lived on campus that frequently visited; how they died remains unexplained. That the 3 TriDelta sisters were walking home, that Martinez was getting a sandwich. Probably their majors & home towns could go in the info box.snug (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Sandwiches? Home towns? That is just non-notable minutiae that has no place in an encyclopaedia? I will strongly oppose. WWGB (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, the sandwich only arose because it described the activity of one victim prior to death. I agree it is not particularly notable in describing him, but describing his actions prior to being shot has some merit. It is the incident that is notable, not the people, I guess. But one could definitely question the degree of detail about the perpetrator; he is not in any way notable, he is merely notorious. One could fairly conclude that the description of the victims could be bounded from below by the description of the perpetrator. I suppose I can put up with details about the perpetrator, but very minor descriptions of the victims should be OK.snug (talk) 21:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

While it's possible to cross a line into tabloid territory, and I think the article does that to some extent, most articles of this type attempt to understand the tragedy by exploring the background of the perp. I think there's something to be said for that, and I disagree with the notion that it favors the perp over the victims. It's just a fact that Rodger's background is more relevant to the subject than those of the victims, who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Mandruss (talk) 02:03, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I think we should limit the biographical information about the victims as well. It is unfortunate that murderers get more press than their victims, but I suppose as Mandruss points out, the story isn't really about the victims, who were unlucky and did nothing wrong - people are interested in why this happened, and to understand that you need to understand the killer, so much more ink will be spilt on him than on his unfortunate victims.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Victims DOB?

I considered just removing this outright, but that might become unrevertable and there would be a certain amount of work to put it back in. So let's get consensus here first.

The question is simple: Given that we already have ages, what do the DOBs add that justifies the increased length of the box? This seems clearly excessive to me. Mandruss (talk) 01:14, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
For those to whom precedence means anything, the following similar articles have two things in common: they include victims boxes, and those boxes don't include dates of birth. VA Tech, Columbine, Luby's, UT Austin. Mandruss (talk) 01:41, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm against DOB being reported, it is excessive detail. The victims' ages are sufficient to place them in a particular age group. The reader's understanding of the topic is not enhanced by further detail of the exact date. WWGB (talk) 01:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

oppose DOB of victims. This is undue detail. The age is useful, since the demographic targeted seems to be pretty tightly bounded to college age students. But date of birth isn't needed - and more importantly, these are not public figures so in the interests of privacy we should absolutely not put their dates of birth here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

support DOB of victims. The added length is trivial, and Misplaced Pages is not paper. Their dates of birth are public and published already; for private living people, like the surviving victims, propagating DOB is inappropriate; but once people have passed, dates of birth are generally freely available. At the moment, the DOB may seem excessive detail, but years from now it will not be; there is substantial value in this information. Agree that in some other cases DOB not present, but I view that as a shortcoming in those articles. I keep track of the age of my car and my pets in years; for people generally (at least in the US) the specificity of the DOB is appropriate. snug (talk) 15:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

strong oppose WP:BLP applies to any living person (or recently deceased) mentioned in an article, whether or not that person is the subject of that article, and we must have regard for the subject's privacy. WP:DOB says: With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, people increasingly regard their full names and dates of birth as private. I see no encyclopedic value in listing their dates of birth. In fact, I believe it's an invasion of their privacy (and their families privacy) and as such, we should err on the side of caution and remove their dates of birth immediately.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Good points. They apply to the perpetrator too, I assume. Deleting all DOB would be fine with me.snug (talk) 19:45, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok I've removed all of the DOBs in the Victims box. I agree with snug that the privacy issue would also apply to the perp, but I suppose the perps in these things are seen to deserve less privacy consideration. And again I give weight to precedence and all of the aforementioned articles give the perps' DOBs. Anyway it's a separate issue and could be discussed further, or not. Mandruss (talk) 22:49, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Perpetrators DOB?

I see no encyclopedic value difference between the perps' DOB and the victims' DOB. Precedence does not convince me; a precedent that supports veneration of a perpetrator of a gruesome crime is not a good one.snug (talk) 05:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I would dispute the notion that to include DOB is to in any way honor or elevate the perp --- let alone venerate him (you might want to look that up). The date of birth is shown on the first line of the article on Adolf Hitler. Better to stick to the privacy question. As for precedence, I would have thought the above might have changed your view on that just a little. It turned out that the right thing to do, as you came to agree, was consistent with the precedent. That just might be true in this case, too. Mandruss (talk) 05:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

A ton of collaboration by very experienced editors goes into the design of infobox templates, and infobox criminal includes a birth_date field. I would have a serious problem with the suggestion that you, or I, or any of us here has better judgment than they did in choosing to include that. Mandruss (talk) 06:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much is gained from the actual date of birth, vs just the year. That said he is now by default a public figure, he very publically declared a great deal about himself - unlike the victims - so I don't think a presumption of privacy can work here. This article is now acting as a mini biography for him - he's probably notable enough for a bio of his own, but it probably won't happen - that said a birthdate is standard practice for a biography thus while I don't see a lot of value in it I don't see much reason to delete either.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I was more convinced by the policy aspect mentioned before… that until about 2 years after death, no DOB. So much for Hitler, we are way more than 2 years past his death. Seems to me there is a conflict between policy and precedent in this case. Using a DOB is a mark of respect for people; that is why (at least in US culture) we celebrate birthdays, put dates on tombstones, etc. I don't feel it is proper to show more respect for the perpetrator than the victims. By any measure of notability, the victims exceed the perpetrator, although the victims notability is meager; the perpetrator is merely notorious.snug (talk) 14:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Point taken as to Hitler, and he was a bit more of a historical figure than Elliot Rodger will ever be. It was a bad comparison. Following text retracted But you didn't respond to the point about the infobox template. As I see it, you can't hold your current position without claiming to be smarter than that group of very experienced editors. I'm wondering whether you actually believe that or are just ignoring that point. Mandruss (talk) 16:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Following is a list of articles taken from Category:Criminals of Los Angeles, California. These are common criminals, much more like Rodger than Hitler. Each one shows date of birth (actually very few of the articles in the category don't show date of birth). But these differ from Rodger in one respect: they are all still living, according to the articles. I don't see any evidence that anyone is concerned about showing them undue respect, or violating their privacy. Rodney Alcala, Kenneth Bianchi, William Ray Bonner, Doug Clark, Tiequon Cox, Nino Durden, Heidi Fleiss, Jesse James Hollywood, Patricia Krenwinkel, Barry Minkow, Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris, "Freeway" Rick Ross, Joe Saenz, Victor Salva, Sanyika Shakur, John Floyd Thomas, Jr., Chester Turner. Mandruss (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

If you're not swayed yet, there's not much else I can say. I'll of course respect the consensus.
strong oppose removal of perp's DOB, for reasons already stated. Mandruss (talk) 17:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, there is no doubt that publishing this perp's DOB until something like 6-24 months after their death violates Misplaced Pages policy, as documented above. There are two justifications: 1)it has been done before, although the perps mentioned in the above list who are still alive are non-sequiturs; but in any case the underlying thinking is 2)we want to punish perps; concerns about theft of their identity can therefore be disregarded. Wanting to punish perps by including information of no encyclopedic value doesn't seem to me to be an attractive use of Misplaced Pages.snug (talk) 21:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll confess to failing to look deeper into the "policy" you refer to until now. I'm not sure why; call it temporary insanity. Now I'm having trouble finding this policy that so clearly supports your position ("above" is kinda vague). It's also notable that Mr. Kenobi didn't see that strong policy connection. Please clarify for me. Mandruss (talk) 02:21, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The policy I think. Personally, I lean toward inclusionism, Misplaced Pages's not Paper, after all. I would have included just about everything; for me, being a victim of a high-profile crime is sufficiently notable for most Misplaced Pages thresholds. But in the long haul it is clear that the Misplaced Pages community disagrees with me. snug (talk) 18:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

References

1. Kate Mather (Jun 20, 2014). "UCSB friends were victims of circumstance". latimes.com. Retrieved Jun 21, 2014.

Rationale for removing perpetrator from Victims box

1. After this edit, the rest of the names in the box are in alphabetical sequence by surname. This makes as much sense as the attempt at chronological sequence, considering that a good part of the chronological sequence is unknown (apartment deaths).
2. To me, it doesn't seem appropriate to place Rodger in the middle of that alphabetical sequence.
3. The box is in a section titled "Victims". Is Rodger to be considered his own victim for the purposes of this section?
4. None of the body text in the Victims section refers to Rodger's death. Therefore, according to the body text, he is not his own victim. The box should be consistent with the body text. Mandruss (talk) 11:55, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. The perp was not a victim. His death is properly reported elsewhere in the article. WWGB (talk) 12:03, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Support also.snug (talk) 18:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Page protected

I've protected this page for three days owing to the edit warring (four reverts in 24 hours, four different editors; blocking would be a bad idea). Please discuss the category on the talk page, rather than reverting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:29, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

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