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Possible vandalism

User:220.236.152.72 (and another similar IP address) made major edits to this article. They should be checked carefully. He/she has just been blocked for exceeeding 3-revert rule after repeatedly making major edits (mostly deletions) to topics in areas related to this, ignoring requests to discuss, creating separate POV versions of articles under slightly different names, etc. Changes just might be accurate, I suggest especially checking any deletions. I won't be watching this page, so if you need to ask me something further, please ask on my talk page. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:41, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

This deals with the issue of caste in India, which attracts a lot of hate-speech, white-washing and contempt for people of 'lower' caste groups. It is essential that the moderators be sensitive to this trend.

Please be confirmed while publishing any article. Saint Pothuluri Veera Brahmendra swamy is a Vishwakarma Vaidika Brahmin. I am not getting intention with which this article was published. Why are you seperating the saints who has renounced this physical world and shown a spiritual moment to disciples,in to shudra, kshatria and all thhese.If you really wish to publish a article on Shudras, please go thorugh abundant literature availble on them, study their pathetic and penury lives thhey are living and show the discimination thhey are facing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sthapathi (talk • contribs) 05:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Misleading Userids

One user called user:VandalPatrol ia behaving as admin on this page though he has no power.Please take note of his suspect action and vandalism.Holywarrior 07:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

User:VandalPatrol who is permanently banned now has been suspected to be operating from these IP adresses.59.94.42.51, 59.94.43.28, 59.94.43.114, 59.94.43.114, 59.94.41.210, 59.94.40.253, 59.94.38.34, 59.94.41.30, 59.94.40.19, 59.94.42.197, 59.94.42.197, 59.94.43.136.Admin may take a look on his edits. HW 10:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

For detailed information plz look here.Holy|Warrior 07:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC) User:NoPOV spotted today with similar edits.Holywarrior 08:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Misinterpreted Facts

I deleted the following from the "avatar" section for the following reasons:

"*Maharshi Veda Vyas, fisherman, composed the Mahabharata, considered an avatara of Vishnu. Maharishi Ved Vyas, who is credited to have compiled/edited all the four Vedas in present format and who is believed to be author of Mahabharata, Shrimad Bhagwat Gita and all the Purans has himself laid down (Mahabharata: 1-V-4): that `whenever there is conflict between what is declared in the Vedas and provisions in any of the Smritis, Puranas, etc., what is declared in the Vedas shall prevail.` Furthermore, Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita (10.37) says, "Of the descendants of Vrishni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana.""

Vyasa Maharshi was the son of a Brahmin rishi Parashara...in no way is he a Shudra. His mom was a Shudra but he takes the line of his father in addition to doing the purificatory rites "samskaras" to become a Brahmin.

Shri Ved Vyas's mother was not Shudra. She was in care of Nishad who was Shudra but he was not her father. She was of Khastriya origin as her father was Khatriya. Ref: Devi Bhagvat Puran. As the material is scattered in various scriptures so for normal readers it is dificult to know lot of stuff.

"*Narad Muni, was son of maidservant who became a Brahmana and was taught by Vaishnava gurus, wrote the Narad Bhakti Sutra. He is mentioned as one of the 25 avatars of Lord Vishnu. Krishna also says in the Bhagavad Gita (10.26), "Of all trees I am the banyan tree, and of the sages among the demigods I am Narada. Of the Gandharvas I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila.""

Narada was the son of Brahma. A person's caste is not determined by what his birth was in the previous birth. It is what his birth is in the present that actually matters. Here he is a Brahmana from birth itself. But yes, he was a Gandharva who got cursed to be a Shudra and THEN got the most enviable birth.

"*Sukhdevji, the son of the great guru and avatar of Sri Vishnu, Veda Vyasa. He stayed inside mother's womb for sixteen years. He was the first one to say Bhagavata Purana to the great Raja Parikshita in last seven remaining days of king's life. Thus the king attained self-realization."

Again, Sri Suka, who belongs to the son of Vyasa Maharshi, gets the line of his father, which makes him a Brahmana from birth itself.

How about adding Matanga Muni here? He was the son of a Brahmin female and a Sudhra male(apparently when she was "intoxicated" she had sex with that guy(!)) and he was born as a Chandala. But I guess he rose to the level of a Brahmin(I don't know is that true? Or did he just become a Maharshi?). Whatever it is I feel Shudras should be proud of their position. It is without them that the others castes cannot survive. I am a Brahmana saying this.193.188.105.20 (talk) 13:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Lowest Caste?

Could someone please add an explanation of the difference between Shudra and Untouchable/Dalit to this article?

BTW, the only sentence currently in the article that mentions them is ungrammatical and indecipherable:

A sub-caste is a local endogenous group practising a lower end Shudras will be untouchable Dalits

- Frankie1969 (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Untouchables are not Sudras. First of all, there are two sections of Sudras. Pure Sudras (from whom Brahmins accept drinking water) and impure Sudras (who pollute Brahmins with their touch). The forward castes are made up of Brahmins, Brahmakshatriyas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Pure Sudras. The lower castes are made up of impure Sudras (like Sonar, Nai.etc). There is another division called Antyaja (Dalit) which is below impure Sudra, and therefore outside varna. Axxn (talk) 10:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Any sources for what you claim here, or is all this based on your family habits? Tomeasy _{T C} 17:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Manusmriti, there are only four castes, nothing beyond it and nothing in between it, and every human being belongs to one of them.Ikon 18:45, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree with ikonoblast manusmiriti claims only four castes,anand is quoting the nambudiri definition which is very weird.and one more thing ancient india had mobility of castes there are many brahmins who have fallen to become shudras and many shudras who have risen to become brahmins.so caste mobiltiy was there but later on castes were hardened and became hereditary.Linguisticgeek (talk) 05:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

So what does this mean to our article? Which of the four casts do Shudras belong to? And which cast do Dalits belong to?

I think, it would help a great deal if whatever your answers are, you could cite some references. To me it seems that everyone dealing with this topic is following their own personal tradition, thinking that this is the one and only truth, whereas in reality there is no truth to it. Anand, e.g., thinks that he as Brahmin would be polluted if he was touched by an impure Shudra individual. My suspicion is that this may be his very strong believe, however, lacking any codified evidence. Good reliable reference, like anywhere else on Misplaced Pages, are the only measure to resolve this suspicion. Tomeasy _{T C} 11:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again I am asking you to refrain from personally attacking me. What I wrote here was taken from historic sources and they don't have anything to do with my beliefs. Go through these pages from Mahabharata to get a better understanding. And here is the definition of impure sudra and pure sudra. Axxn (talk) 05:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

You should read this book. You would know how hinduism transformed from three varna system to four varna, and more about origin of shudra. Ikon 19:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No, this talk page's purpose is not to educate me but to improve the article. The article is in very bad shape, as it does not cite references. I cannot tell which claims are reasonable and which ones are original research, but perhaps you can. If so, you can improve the article and put appropriate references at the indicated locations. Tomeasy _{T C} 19:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Manu, the son of a Sudra father by a Sudra woman is purer than the son of a Sudra father by a woman of the highest caste (Brahmin). This means that Sudra is not the lowest caste. The Chandala (Son of a lower status father with a higher status mother) are considered to be the lowest ranking people in varna system, below the Sudra. "Manu calls the Chandala one of the lowest outcasts, because he is the son of a Sudra father and a Brahmanic mother." Here, a detailed description of these 29 lowest varnas are given. Actually most of these castes emerged in to become forward castes, like Mahishya (#2) and Khatri (#11). I don't know how accurate it is, as here he gives that Rajputs are Kshatriya + Vaishya and Karana are Vaishya + Sudra. Axxn (talk) 02:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Saints in Hinduism

Can someone explain what this section has to do with the rest of the page? It appears to be a completely unrelated (and unreferenced) list of names. Is the implication that all these saints are of the Shudra varna? If so, that needs to be clarified (an verified with references). If not, then the section is pointless, and should be removed. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 16:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

As there was no response opposing the proposed deletion, I have gone ahead and deleted the section on saints. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 12:55, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

"Undefined" varna status

Someone has edited that Kayasths and Khatris are having "undefined" varna status. But their status is not undefined. In West Bengal Kayasth are generally considered Shudra, but in some parts of UP, they claim Kshatriya or Brahmin status. Likewise, Khatris are considered to be Shudra by Gaur Brahmins and Rajputs, but they claim Kshatriya status. Saraswat Brahmins even accept food from them, which means that they are not Sudra. Both the communities were very powerful during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, so they could easily manipulate the census records to their own use. I am not sure about the sources, as I took this from here. However having heard about the rivalry these two castes are having with Rajputs, I don't think Rajput sponsored research links will provide NPOV. Axxn (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

In Bengal Kayasthas are considered upper caste (like everyplace else) although, they have been degraded into Sudra status, because Bengali Brahmins played politics and made it a two varna system, where all non-Brahmins were rendered Sudras. In UP and everyplace else, Kayasthas formally enjoy the Kshatriya status, and informally the dual Brahmin/Kshatriya status.(Gyanvigyan1 (talk) 17:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC))

Sudra should be part of an inner cleansing process, not some silly nazi system misinterpreted by controlling fools

It is ANNOYING to see that human beings have consistently misinterpreted sacred information. OF COURSE there was NOT supposed to be a caste system, these are different parts of a process all human beings should undergo. The Sudra is the last of them! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.70.121 (talk) 11:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of word Shudra

The present etymology given for word Shudra is wrong and there would not be any reference related to this. Shudra word is quite common in sanskrit which means cheap and lower. Like Shri Krishna used this word in Gita many times like in one case where He said to Arjun that how this shudra thought come in your mind which is not beffiting to you and.... in 2nd chapter.121.241.123.3 (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Notable Shudra

If the definition of who is Shudra is correct then most non-brahmin Hindus would fall under that category. This basically would be 90% of Hindu population of India or around 75% of total Indian population. I am including the "untouchables" amongst the Shudra, however other definitions may put them outside the varna system: So how about: 1. Shivaji maharaj and his descendants (Maratha) 2. The Shinde (Maratha) , Gaikwad (Maratha), Holkar(Maratha Dhangar) royal families 3. Swami Vivekanand (Kayastha) 4. Lal Bahadur Shastri (Kayastha) 5. Amitabh Bacchan (part kayastha) 6. Royal families of Vijaynagar (Kuruba/Dhangar) 7. Bal Thakaray (Kayastha, more specifically CKP) 8. Mahatma Gandhi (Bania)? 9. Sant Tukaram (Vani) and most bhakti saints) 10.Kalidasa 11. Bhimrao Ambedkar (Mahar)

I could go on and on by basically excluding brahmins, muslims , christians etc. from the list of Indian Notables and that would be the list of notable shudras.

Having said that, in day to day life, nobody, except some brahmins and a few academics care about the Varna system and certainly, no one likes to describe themselves as shudra. For example, someone belonging to the Lohar (iron-smith) caste does not put Shudra as the prefix before lohar when describing his /her caste. A number of castes would like to be designated "backward class/caste in order to receive preferential treatment in jobs and college admission but they would most certainly be vehemently opposed to being described as shudraJonathansammy (talk) 17:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed the notable sub-section.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This page has been semi protected for ten days

• WP:SEMI
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This page has been semi-protected for ten days. Semi-protection prevents edits from unregistered users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has ten or more edits to Misplaced Pages) or confirmed. Such users can request edits to a semi-protected page by proposing them on this talk page, using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template if necessary to gain attention. You can alternatively make your edit request at Misplaced Pages:Request for edit. New users may also request the confirmed user right by visiting Requests for permissions. Please contact me directly on my talk page for any clarifications. Thanks. Wifione 19:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Not exactly the case in South India

Shudras were the ruling/warrior caste in South India. They were also traders/merchants/agriculturists along with Komathis(Vaishyas). Till this day no actual Kshatriya ruled South India. Shudras don't exactly serve the other three and Shudras don't exactly get along with Kshatriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.226.74 (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Avarna is the word that you are looking for, but you need to check out (for example) Caste system in Kerala and Nair because it is more complex than you describe. As a term based on Hindu religious texts etc, shudra is as described in this article. Of course, the article is poor but it is dealing with the term rather than the lunatic asylum of castes (to quote Swani Vishkananda). - Sitush (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I just simplified it. Shudra is caste but overtime they became divided. In the article you pointed to it stated Nair is a Sudra caste and it also stated they were warrior like. Other castes of South India that were Shudra castes are Kapus, Balija Naidus, Gavara Balijas, Gajula Balijas, Setti Balijas, Munuru Kapus, Reddy, Velamas, Kammas, Naiker, etc etc. The first five are all Kapus with variation of names depending on area and profession. Gavara, Gajula, and Setti Balijas are all trader merchant Kapus. Balija Naidus and Kapus were ruler/warrior like Kapus. Munuru Kapus were warrior like Balija Naidus of Arcot. Reddys were originally Kapus that locally administered areas assigned by the Balijas and Kapus. Reddy did not officially become a seperate caste till the 1950s. There are alot of parallels in customs and behavior between Kapus and Reddys. Velamas and Kammas origin is not exactly known but they are also considered Shudra caste. Some say they were migrant Choudaries of Northern India and both subcastes mostly have neni suffix in their surname. Kammas have alot of parallels with Choudaries of Northern India as they are very money minded and clanish. Velamas are very clanish. Some Kamma and Velama communities also adopted Kapu surnames (without neni suffix) to assimilate into the community. Naiker is Naidu variation in Tamil Nadu area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.226.74 (talk) 22:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I do not disagree with much of what you say, and many articles relating to communities which you have mentioned have had a fairly significant input from me. However, this talk page is for discussion of improvements to this article. Any such discussions must ultimately have reference to reliable sources and need to focus on the subject matter of the article. Is the problem really one of defining what it is that this article is intended to address? Are we risking extending the thing to cover areas - principally, relating to the caste system - that are better dealt with elsewhere? - Sitush (talk) 22:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

This article is about Shudra caste and it was clearly stated in "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" by Thurston that rulers and warriors of southern India were Kapus/Balija Naidus and that they were Shudras not Kshatriyas. So it should be mentioned that Shudras serving the other three was not exactly the case for Southern India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.199.127 (talk) 21:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Thurston is not a reliable source. - Sitush (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Thurston is reliable. He is an ethnographer appointed by the British Government to conduct ethnographic studies in Southern India for the Ethnographic Survey of India project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.199.183 (talk) 22:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, your synopsis of him is pretty accurate. That is why he is not reliable. If you have the time to read some of the articles that I have created/expanded regarding these people - James Tod, Edgar Thurston, H. H. Risley, H. A. Rose, William Crooke etc - and perhaps you will come to understand the problems of these British amateurs, their inability to assess sources, their scientific racism, the ever-shifting sands of the census classification system etc. We need something much more recent and there is a fairly wide consensus across the numerous caste articles that this is the case. Thurston, in particular, was both a racist who sampled extremely small numbers in pursuit of the discredited anthropometry ideas of Risley/Topinard and also a "broad-brush" non-critical summariser of people often from as far back as Tod, who really did not have a clue. I seem to recall that he has been rejected at the reliable sources noticeboard for reasons such as these, but I'd have to check the archives. - Sitush (talk) 00:03, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Well his scientific racism studies have nothing to do with who Shudras were and how they were in South India. "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" was actually co-authored by Thurston and Indian ethnographer K. Rangachari so there is quite a bit of accuracy to their studies. You say his scientific racism studies are innaccurate but even today alot of his descriptions hold out to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.205.131 (talk) 23:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It is rather funny to see Sitush a 'western' guy considering Thurston as an old fashionned & racist author whose work must not be used as ref and in the other hand, there is a (stupid) indian who still consider this colonial era author as a great man & scientist. This kind of discussion shows again the slave mentality of many indians who still consider what has been said & written during colonial era as true... 86.212.201.128 (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No one said he was a great man and scientist. All that was said is his studies should not be dismissed as they are reliable because his descriptions still can be verified today just by seeing the said type of people. Also lot of what he wrote matches up with old Indian History books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.200.94 (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that the 86.* IP overstepped the mark with their comment: I can understand the sentiment but the phrasing leaves something to be desired & I was tempted to remove it. To that IP, please could you take a look at WP:CIVIL - there is no need to call people "stupid" etc.

AS for your (117.* IP) opinion, I have the feeling that the issue probably will not advance here. If you want to raise the validity of Thurston as a source at the reliable sources noticeboard then by all means do so. You'll most likely get a wider range of opinion there.

If you do raise the Thurston point at RSN then it might assist to note here that you have done so. I am most likely not going to be around for the next four days or so, but there is no rush about this type of thing. - Sitush (talk) 23:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Merge articles

Sorry, not sure what the Misplaced Pages terminology is, but shouldn't these two articles be merged? http://en.wikipedia.org/Sudra and http://en.wikipedia.org/Shudra ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.156.63 (talk) 04:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Someone kinda hijacked Sudra a few months ago, probably with good intentions. That article was intended to be a disambiguation page because there is more than one usage for the word. I've reverted the edits that caused the change and all should now be well. - Sitush (talk) 14:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Scholarly referenced content on this page is being removed.

The following referenced and balanced presentation on this topic has been repeatedly deleted without any explanation. If scholarly sources are relied on while writing[REDACTED] articles there should be no problem with the following content. NQ and Bishnoi pls note.

"Shudra is the fourth varna, as mentioned in the Purusha Sukta of the Rig veda, one of the earliest texts of what has come to be known as Hinduism. The Purusha Sukta hymn is one of the last verses to be added to Rig Veda and some scholars feel that this could have been an interpolation. The Rig Veda simply talks about the sacrifice of the cosmic giant Purusha and says that the four varnas came out of different body parts of Purusha, the Brahmins from his mouth, the Kshatriyas from his arms, the Vaishyas from his thighs and the Shudras from his feet.

Ambedkar in his book, Who Were the Shudras?, claims that there were initially only three varnas: the Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya, and the Shudras were the Kshatriyas who were denied the Upanayana or the initiation ritual by the Brahmins. The Brahmins denied the Upanayana ritual to the Shudras as there was a continuous between the Brahmins and the Shudras. "Owing to the denial of the Upanayana, the Shudras who were Kshatriyas became socially degraded, fell below the rank of the Vaishyas and thus came to form the fourth varna.

The Government of India, under the leadership of V.P. Singh, instituted the system of reservation in 1993 following the recommendations of Mandal Commission (1979) to provide social justice to the Shudras. According to the 1931 census conducted by the British government Shudras classified as backward castes constituted 43.5 per cent of the Indian population."

--Spark121212

1. Ambedkar, B.R. (1970). Who were the Shudras? (PDF). Bombay: Thackers. p. xiv.
2. "Counting Caste". The Caravan.

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