| Revision as of 22:22, 8 December 2014 view sourceWillhesucceed (talk | contribs)1,771 edits →Data analysis← Previous edit | Revision as of 22:22, 8 December 2014 view source Willhesucceed (talk | contribs)1,771 edits →Data analysisNext edit → | ||
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| Thanks for the threats, Tarc. Is everyone really saying the guy who's involved in "big data engineering" https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisvoncsefalvay (linked in the source, this is not "doxing") wouldn't have a clue what he's talking about when it comes to analysing data? ] (]) 22:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC) | Thanks for the threats, Tarc. Is everyone really saying the guy who's involved in "big data engineering" https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisvoncsefalvay (linked in the source, this is not "doxing") wouldn't have a clue what he's talking about when it comes to analysing data? He went to Oxford University. ] (]) 22:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
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RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)
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Lede improvement
Moved from the Gamergate ArbCom thing for a chance for a productive discussion. DHeyward believes that the first paragraph of the article unduly concludes "that a fringe position is the dominant cultural view of gaming," and while I don't quite see how he's reading that, I think I feel what he's getting at, and if we can make things clearer, we should. I'll not put words in his mouth and will let DHeyward explain in more detail if he so chooses (and I hope he will). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The opening sentence is
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture."
The premise outlined in the ArbCom case by NBSB is that gamergater supporters are a small, fringe element (If the article does not make clear that "Gamergate" does not represent all gamers (rather, it is a small fringe within the community), then I agree with you that we should make that distinction clearer.
. I believe that was accurate. The opening line attributes it to "video game culture" in general. It says "the movement is rooted in a culture war against women." I do not know how the view that gamergate is a fringe element is juxtaposed against the wider community without any of the fringe coverage rules. If it's fringe, why aren't we using WP:FRINGE as the guideline and balancing the fringe gamergate harassment? Why don't we say that a "small, fringe minority of gamergate supporters engaged in harassment and misogyny." My counter example was 9/11 hijackers and Islam. Coverage at the time was not lacking in the religious identification of the terrorists. However, I hope we would recognize that they were fringe and treat their form of religious observance as generally unrelated to Islam as it is a fringe expression. It would be quite offensive to use a specific terrorist attack as a springboard to a more general discussion about Islam. Either the article is about the fringe harassment campaign, in which case the fringe aspect is missing. Or it's a mainstream article on video game culture, in which case the fringe harassment shouldn't be the prominent lead-in sentence. --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC) --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- That's a good point. Perhaps other editors could comment also, as well as a reply from North. starship.paint ~ regal 09:50, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) Yeah, actually, I see what you're saying here, and I think I get where the confusion is coming from. It's definitely true that the really severe harassment/misogyny comes from a fringe element, but the entire movement is seen as being tainted by an inability or unwillingness to repudiate or move beyond that misogynistic harassment, and that became a springboard for reliable sources to discuss broader issues of sexism in video gaming, which are viewed as longstanding problems in a wide part of the community (so much so that we have an article about it). In fact, why don't we just straight-up go with that?
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and resulted in widespread debate about issues of sexism in video gaming."
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- North, could you clarify, you are proposing that change to the first sentence, and no changes to the second sentence? starship.paint ~ regal 10:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. I think the second sentence adequately sums up what each side claims. Stating the mainstream argument that Gamergate is "a culture war against women" is more or less properly repeating the argument that it's misogynist but in perhaps a less inflammatory way, and we use "misogyny" a bunch in the second paragraph so much so that I think the point is well and truly made at any rate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- North, could you clarify, you are proposing that change to the first sentence, and no changes to the second sentence? starship.paint ~ regal 10:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- This goes back to a point I made a few months ago, that at the core, there are actually two controversies that are named Gamergate, but which once is dominate depends on who you ask: there is the controversy as it exists from the GG side, in which they believe there's ethics issues in journalism and want to correct that, but with the fact that harassment has occurred and tainted their message; and there is the much more predominate controversy over the movement itself (not the issues it raises) by the press about the use of harassment and threats to try to affect journalism or even just to silence opponents. The article does not presently do a good job making this distinction. As I've suggested before, we should piece the central topic - which controversy is key - and write the article to clearly make sure it is understand that the presentation of details is towards that controversy.
- It would seem obvious per COMMONNAME that this article should be about the "controversy over the Gamergate movement", in which case saying that controversy is about sexism and misogyny is correct. While it would be more impartial to frame the article as the "controversy from the Gamergate side" or as the "Gamergate movement" (in which we would start with establishing their FRINGE position before moving onto the harassment issues and strong criticism against it), that's going to be a lot more difficult to write towards without it being too much of a soapbox for GG particularly due to the lack of sourcing. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Except that, as far as I can tell none of the RS that have covered this subject are saying that there are two controversies, and it is the RS on any subject that then informs the page and its contents. Whilst I have no doubt that you sincerely believe that there are two controversies going under the name 'Gamergate', unless this can be backed up using RS then it remains WP:OR and, I'm afraid to say, unable to used in Misplaced Pages.
- Yes, many the RS used in the article do state that the stated objectives and claims of Gamergate supporters are x; however, given that x has already been included in the article (and there isn't enough evidence from RS to spin off x into a new page), I do not see how trying to create two separate pages on the Gamergate controversy can achieve anything, except maybe accidentally remove or silence the requisite balance already included in the page.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is more the analysis and a mindset from our side as WP editors as to how we write the article in a manner that makes it clear what the topic is. Right now, much of the problem is that proGG side come in expecting to read about their controversy, and see instead the article based on the opinion, because the lead does not make that clear. If said, first sentence "GG is a controversy surrounding actions of the Gamergate movement that involved issues of sexism and misogyny" (not that exact wording but just highlighting the distinctions), then the angle that we're talking to write about the article would be crystal clear, and would help structure the article better (identifying what we can of GG movement's fringe view as to then proceeed into the massive amount of criticism and condemnation it has garnered). And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The purpose of our article is not to make everyone who visits it happy; I daresay there are plenty of articles here that make visitors unhappy. But I think that if we go by the reliable sources it's clear that Gamergate's notability comes primarily from harassment, which means it should be the main focus of our article -- outside of the harassment, it's just a few thousand people shouting at each other on Twitter and 8chan, so it's hardly surprising that that has no coverage. I think that there's also disagreements over what constitutes "harassment" -- my impression is that most of the reliable sources discussing harassment in the article include things like spreading debunked rumors about people in order to destroy their reputation, or having huge mobs of people constantly focus waves of tweets on people who have earned GG's ire for one reason or another. If you include that, I think it's reasonable to say that the majority of GG is about harassment, at least in the sense that that's most of what the hashtag is used for... and this is why there's so many reliable sources characterizing it that way. People within Gamergate (the people who, as you're saying, come to this article and are unhappy because they feel it portrays them in a negative light) would probably argue that those things aren't harassment -- that the accusations are true, that they're just talking to those people, that having a bunch of people insulting you on Twitter when you offend them is just a normal part of being on the internet, etc -- but we have to go by what the reliable sources say, and they characterize the majority of what's done under the #Gamergate tag as harassment, not just a small minority.
- This is more the analysis and a mindset from our side as WP editors as to how we write the article in a manner that makes it clear what the topic is. Right now, much of the problem is that proGG side come in expecting to read about their controversy, and see instead the article based on the opinion, because the lead does not make that clear. If said, first sentence "GG is a controversy surrounding actions of the Gamergate movement that involved issues of sexism and misogyny" (not that exact wording but just highlighting the distinctions), then the angle that we're talking to write about the article would be crystal clear, and would help structure the article better (identifying what we can of GG movement's fringe view as to then proceeed into the massive amount of criticism and condemnation it has garnered). And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, maybe, my impression (and what I think most of the more reliable sources say) is that the second goal -- the ethics goal -- is primarily about a culture war against so-called SJWs and feminism in particular (what was once called "political correctness", too, although that terms seems to have mostly fallen out of use). If you read the RSes in the article that have taken the time to read and analyze the various Gamergate manifestos and focus on the reddit and forums where they congregate, it's reasonably clear that that what Gamergate means when they say "corruption" in gaming is, usually, "feminists and SJWs advancing their wicked agenda", with the movement as a whole being marked by a total fixation on anything it can use as a line of attack against those ideological enemies, and near-total disinterest in anything that doesn't involve attacking them. Again, it's more an argument over definitions than a focus on different parts of the movement -- people within Gamergate feel that its primary targets have committed major ethical breaches, while most of the sources from outside it feel that they haven't and that Gamergate is targeting them for ideological reasons. (And, of course, this ties back into the first point, in that when commentators dismiss the ethical breaches Gamergate is fixated on as clearly trivial-to-nonexistent, that means that constantly trying to use them to attack the reputation of individuals becomes, at least in the eyes of the media, a form of harassment.)
- Obviously any movement covers a diverse range of people with many different goals, but I think that if we go by the more reliable sources GG's two threads are harassment and *culture war*, not harassment and ethics. And these two goals are much more tightly connected than you're suggesting, since again, it's the harassment that has given them notability and has elevated their culture war to public attention. Most of the unhappy Gamergate people you allude to would probably define their role as "defending" in this culture war rather than attacking, but I suspect that even the majority of people affiliated with it wouldn't disagree with an assessment saying that they're focused on confronting feminists and SJWs who keep unethically by bringing their ideology into games and game reviews -- most of the Gamergate sources we have in the article seem to be saying that, and it's the assessment of every journalist who has gone into the main GG subreddits and forums. I even think that most people in GG would agree that Gamergate itself is generally focused on doing many of the things that our reliable sources are lumping under harassment, as long as it's not described as harassment -- confronting their enemies on Twitter, attacking the reputations of a few specific journalists and developers, etc. So the debate is not really over "which part" of Gamergate to focus on, as it is over how to characterize its actions and views. Now obviously movements are broad and have lot of people, and I'm sure that there are people who think of themselves as a part of Gamergate and who aren't obsessed with SJWs and feminists and who don't participate in even the broadly-defined sort of "harassment" I outlined above... but we need to cover what the reliable sources say, and they're nearly unanimous that Gamergate is a movement based around using harassment by that definition and that it is not concerned with ethics beyond the extremely narrow so-called "anti-politics-in-gaming" scope necessary to fight back against what they see as their political enemies. I think part of the issue is a culture-clash between 4chan / 8chan culture and the rest of the world, where what 4chan sees as harassment is very very different from what the NYT sees as harassment. But I'm not sure how many sources have focused on that particular angle. --Aquillion (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues."
Sorry about that, for some reason my brain read your post as suggesting two separate pages. I blame a combination of flu and chemo for my reading failure.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 18:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC) - Beautifully put, Aquillion. Hustlecat 18:51, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I endorse everything Aquillion said above, and there's no need for me to try and repeat this excellent summation of the issue. There is a reason that reliable sources have dismissed the "ethics in gaming journalism" line, and it is not that every reliable source is part of a vast, insidious conspiracy against Gamergate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The thing here is that do we absolutely need to say "harassment and misogyny" in the first sentence when it can be stated in the second (or a third) sentence of the lead without losing any other context/weight/etc? Because it is a debatable issue between the key party (the proGG side) and the way the press reports, stating that issue in the very first sentences sets a tone that is unencyclopedic. Waiting for one more sentence, or even adding a third to read better, doesn't change the weight, doesn't change the predominate viewpoint, but simply makes the article less aggressive from the start and puts use in a neutral stance on the matter.
- Eg The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement has been broadly condemned by mass media as sexist and misogynistic due to continued harassment and threats made under the Gamergate hashtag, targeting primarily female individuals in the video game industry. Everything is still there, it sets the stage for the rest of the article, but it avoids us (WP) from stating in WP's voice what the controversy is about, but atttributing it to the proper groups in the second and third sentences. --MASEM (t) 19:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- We do need to reference sexism in the first sentence, because that is what the public controversy is about. That is essentially the only thing that non-GG reliable sources have examined. So I would modify your proposal thusly: The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture, centering on issues of sexism in video games. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd drop the "overwhelming majority of" bit. We don't need that many descriptors, and inevitably someone will drive-by tag it as {{citationneeded}}. — Strongjam (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think "the majority" can easily be defended, but "overwhelming" is unnecessary. Tweaked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Instead of "sexism in video games" how about "gender issues in video games" (same link otherwise). Consider the proGG disagre about what they see as a strong push of feminist ideals into the vg culture. That's not so much sexism but it is a gender issue. Note that I am agreeing that something that is common to the whole issue that both sides have touched on is reasonable to include in the first sentence, and it's not that "sexism" is not appropriate but I think there's a more precise phrase we can use. --MASEM (t) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The whole introductory section of our article discusses the background of the controversy, which is that the gaming community has long been viewed as having issues with sexist behaviors, tropes, etc. If we go all the way back to one of the very first reliable sources to examine Gamergate, The Washington Post reported that
Sexism in gaming is a long-documented, much-debated but seemingly intractable problem. It’s also the crux of the industry’s biggest ongoing battle being waged on Twitter under the hashtag “#GamerGate.”
I think "sexism in video games" is a fair and well-sourced descriptor for the lede. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- That's reasonable then. As noted, it's not that "sexism in video games" (or perhaps "sexism in the video game industry") is wrong, but it is probably the best word that covers all fundamental issues. --MASEM (t) 19:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate has never been about sexism in gaming. That discussion has been going on for years. Gamergate is different because it started from slut-shaming and harassment of real life people about real-life events. Once you go beyond that, into sexism (or violence) in video games, it's no longer GG but a rabbit hole of history and a much larger social issue than gaming culture. The big names that have made GG mainstream issues are not gamers and their position cannot be attributed to gaming culture. Sommers and Baldwin, for instance are not representative of gaming culture. --DHeyward (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with your opening sentence. Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games (The Telegraph), Gamergate might be gaming sexism's Waterloo (The Week), Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign (The New York Times), The Gaming Industry's Greatest Adversary Is Just Getting Started (BusinessWeek), Online culture war prompts mass shooting threat (CBS News), What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? (Time), etc. etc. etc. The conclusion of reliable sources is that Gamergate has torn off the scab covering up a sexist undercurrent in video game culture. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly the opposite. They acknowledge sexism has been an ongoing discussion for years and that this incident is defined by specific harassment from a small number of trolls. Sexism in gaming is background material for that, not lead material. --DHeyward (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's precisely the point. Here, have another: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world (Australian Broadcasting Corporation News):
If you live with somebody who likes to play video games - and millions of adults do - you won't have escaped hearing about Gamergate. It's rocked the hundred billion-dollar video gaming industry with allegations of sexism and misogyny. It started with an allegation against a female gamer of sexual favours for good reviews and quickly turned into an all-out culture war.
The public debate about Gamergate is about sexism and misogyny in the video gaming industry/community, full stop. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's precisely the point. Here, have another: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world (Australian Broadcasting Corporation News):
- Exactly the opposite. They acknowledge sexism has been an ongoing discussion for years and that this incident is defined by specific harassment from a small number of trolls. Sexism in gaming is background material for that, not lead material. --DHeyward (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with your opening sentence. Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games (The Telegraph), Gamergate might be gaming sexism's Waterloo (The Week), Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign (The New York Times), The Gaming Industry's Greatest Adversary Is Just Getting Started (BusinessWeek), Online culture war prompts mass shooting threat (CBS News), What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? (Time), etc. etc. etc. The conclusion of reliable sources is that Gamergate has torn off the scab covering up a sexist undercurrent in video game culture. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The whole introductory section of our article discusses the background of the controversy, which is that the gaming community has long been viewed as having issues with sexist behaviors, tropes, etc. If we go all the way back to one of the very first reliable sources to examine Gamergate, The Washington Post reported that
- I'd drop the "overwhelming majority of" bit. We don't need that many descriptors, and inevitably someone will drive-by tag it as {{citationneeded}}. — Strongjam (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- We do need to reference sexism in the first sentence, because that is what the public controversy is about. That is essentially the only thing that non-GG reliable sources have examined. So I would modify your proposal thusly: The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture, centering on issues of sexism in video games. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you've missed the bigger point by focusing about "ethics in journalism." That is not what we contrast in the opening sentence. We juxtapose harassment and misogyny by one fringe element of gamergate supporters against gaming culture as a whole. Is harassment and misogyny a fringe position or is it the mainstream position of gaming culture? If it's fringe, then we need to say it's fringe. The ethics argument might represent a large portion of gamergate supporters and can be juxtaposed against the smaller fringe element of harassers. But the real problem is the juxtaposition of harassers within the gaming community overall which is how we are framing the article. I think it shows that
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture."
is simply wrong as "misogyny and harassment" is a fringe viewpoint in video game culture (so is "ethics in journalism"). That doesn't dismiss the harassment and misogyny occured just as an "ISIS suicide bomber" is a fringe expression if Islam. We wouldn't ever leap to news sources that link the religion of a billion people to a suicide bomber even though "Islamic State" is in every single reliable source. It's fringe and fringe says to be very careful in using news sources for recentism events. The false balance that gets repeated is the harassment and misogyny are more prominent that ethics in journalism so it's okay to label the entire culture. As it's fringe, the opening sentence could easily read"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and has been largely defined by a small, fringe group that harassed specific game developers and journalists."
--DHeyward (talk) 19:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues."
- Obviously any movement covers a diverse range of people with many different goals, but I think that if we go by the more reliable sources GG's two threads are harassment and *culture war*, not harassment and ethics. And these two goals are much more tightly connected than you're suggesting, since again, it's the harassment that has given them notability and has elevated their culture war to public attention. Most of the unhappy Gamergate people you allude to would probably define their role as "defending" in this culture war rather than attacking, but I suspect that even the majority of people affiliated with it wouldn't disagree with an assessment saying that they're focused on confronting feminists and SJWs who keep unethically by bringing their ideology into games and game reviews -- most of the Gamergate sources we have in the article seem to be saying that, and it's the assessment of every journalist who has gone into the main GG subreddits and forums. I even think that most people in GG would agree that Gamergate itself is generally focused on doing many of the things that our reliable sources are lumping under harassment, as long as it's not described as harassment -- confronting their enemies on Twitter, attacking the reputations of a few specific journalists and developers, etc. So the debate is not really over "which part" of Gamergate to focus on, as it is over how to characterize its actions and views. Now obviously movements are broad and have lot of people, and I'm sure that there are people who think of themselves as a part of Gamergate and who aren't obsessed with SJWs and feminists and who don't participate in even the broadly-defined sort of "harassment" I outlined above... but we need to cover what the reliable sources say, and they're nearly unanimous that Gamergate is a movement based around using harassment by that definition and that it is not concerned with ethics beyond the extremely narrow so-called "anti-politics-in-gaming" scope necessary to fight back against what they see as their political enemies. I think part of the issue is a culture-clash between 4chan / 8chan culture and the rest of the world, where what 4chan sees as harassment is very very different from what the NYT sees as harassment. But I'm not sure how many sources have focused on that particular angle. --Aquillion (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Misogyny and harassment" is not a fringe position; it is the core of Gamergate, a fact which is supported by reliable sources. The lead cannot move away from that, if it is to be an introduction to the reader as to what the subject matter is. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whose core position is "misogyny and harassment?" I missed that part. Is it just the fringe group of of harassers? Everything above says it's a fringe group that holds those views. If so, then GG is about a fringe group, not video game culture. If not, then it shouldn't be the lead sentence that links gaming culture to misogyny and harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- It may not be the core position of any particular person you ask, but it is certainly the core of the events that have transpired (per RSes) and the core of what has made Gamergate notable in the first place (again per RSes). Hustlecat 19:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whose core position is "misogyny and harassment?" I missed that part. Is it just the fringe group of of harassers? Everything above says it's a fringe group that holds those views. If so, then GG is about a fringe group, not video game culture. If not, then it shouldn't be the lead sentence that links gaming culture to misogyny and harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Misogyny and harassment" is not a fringe position; it is the core of Gamergate, a fact which is supported by reliable sources. The lead cannot move away from that, if it is to be an introduction to the reader as to what the subject matter is. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Formal proposal for consensus-gathering
OK, here's what I formally propose:
The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014, centering on a debate about sexism in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. Some Gamergate supporters are widely viewed as responsible for ongoing harassment and threats, targeting primarily women in the video game industry. These attacks have been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic by media, video gaming academics, industry and community figures.
This addresses DHeyward's concern — one which I believe is fair — that the current version does not properly attribute the "misogyny" and "harassment" aspects directly to the movement, and instead appears to apply it to video gaming culture as a whole. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "broadly condemned by the mass media as..." (and possibly "ongoing harassment") but I feel that's an improvement without conceding away the majority viewpoint (keeping the right weight). --MASEM (t) 20:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not wild about it, but it is acceptable so that we can move forward. Tarc (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have precise wording, but I think it would be fair to indicate that the nature of the concerns about ethics in journalism revolve around treatment of sexism in video games. In other words, there's very little concern about mainstream game publishers influencing reviews in favor of traditional games with scantily clad babes; there is a lot of concern about an alleged force-feeding of anti-sexist ideology. Spit-balling here, maybe something like
- "While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, these concerns revolve around a perception that feminist views are being imposed on reviews by writers and editors, and a search for malfeasance by publishers (such as Gawker Publications and Kotaku) that advocate for less sexism in games." Msalt (talk) 21:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Being imposed on reviews" by the very people who write reviews? I haven't seen any statement of any kind -- reputable or otherwise -- from a writer or an editor saying they were forced to change the wording of a review to make it more in line with "feminist views." Reviewers remarking on issues of sexism in games are doing so entirely of their own accord, as is their right as reviewers expressing their own sentiments. If you are suggesting that outside forces have been pressuring reviewers and editors into denouncing sexism in games when they would not choose to do so on their own, I would like to see sources for that. ReynTime (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what he's saying is that that's the allegation (silly as it is) that Gamergate is putting forth. I think this proposal gets too much into the weeds for the lede — let's just say what Gamergate supporters think, say that pretty much everyone else thinks something else and leave it at that. Details of what Gamergate believes about "ethics in gaming journalism" can be expounded upon in the body text. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's why I'd like a clarification. As I understand it, Gamergate's position (to the extent that there is a unified position on anything in this "movement") is that reviewers ought not to be allowed to discuss sexism in reviews. This was the reasoning behind their boycott of a particular Bayonetta 2 review. As in, a reviewer saying that he or she finds a game sexist should be redacted to remove that sentiment from the review -- in effect, a pro-censorship position. The justification for this was that it was "unfair" to the game to mention sexist content and perhaps could negatively affect the developer bonuses to give them a lower review number due to sexism issues, because some companies have tied developer bonuses to a game's Metacritic score; thus, lowering a game's score due to finding it sexist is "unethical" because it unfairly reduces the devleper's income. I have had great difficulty in following the logic behind this thinking but since Msalt is proposing adding it I thought he might be able to explain and source it. ReynTime (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The proposed lede looks okay to me. The only problem I have with it is that, as an opening paragraph, it feels a little clunky and its internal flow gets broken up in the second sentence. Maybe:
- That's why I'd like a clarification. As I understand it, Gamergate's position (to the extent that there is a unified position on anything in this "movement") is that reviewers ought not to be allowed to discuss sexism in reviews. This was the reasoning behind their boycott of a particular Bayonetta 2 review. As in, a reviewer saying that he or she finds a game sexist should be redacted to remove that sentiment from the review -- in effect, a pro-censorship position. The justification for this was that it was "unfair" to the game to mention sexist content and perhaps could negatively affect the developer bonuses to give them a lower review number due to sexism issues, because some companies have tied developer bonuses to a game's Metacritic score; thus, lowering a game's score due to finding it sexist is "unethical" because it unfairly reduces the devleper's income. I have had great difficulty in following the logic behind this thinking but since Msalt is proposing adding it I thought he might be able to explain and source it. ReynTime (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what he's saying is that that's the allegation (silly as it is) that Gamergate is putting forth. I think this proposal gets too much into the weeds for the lede — let's just say what Gamergate supporters think, say that pretty much everyone else thinks something else and leave it at that. Details of what Gamergate believes about "ethics in gaming journalism" can be expounded upon in the body text. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Being imposed on reviews" by the very people who write reviews? I haven't seen any statement of any kind -- reputable or otherwise -- from a writer or an editor saying they were forced to change the wording of a review to make it more in line with "feminist views." Reviewers remarking on issues of sexism in games are doing so entirely of their own accord, as is their right as reviewers expressing their own sentiments. If you are suggesting that outside forces have been pressuring reviewers and editors into denouncing sexism in games when they would not choose to do so on their own, I would like to see sources for that. ReynTime (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014, centering on a debate about sexism in video game culture. The majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture, but many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic.
- as an alternative?--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The deeper mindset that I gather from reading proGG information is that they believe that they fear that there is a strong collusion by feminists and people that support them to drive the hard-core "gamer" out of video games and/or changing the demographic away from them; the things we do see like their request for disclosures or their demand for more "objective" reviews (eg leaving sexism or any other political/moral points out of it in favor of graphics and gameplay) are short-term steps towards exposing that. Some of the culture war stories we have sourced allude to this concern. Some of these concerns like the need to feed the MetaCritic beast is something they do share with journalists, but as well described, the tainting of GG by harassment is not helping in these legit aspects to be discussed in any manner. --MASEM (t) 00:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- If this "formal proposal" by North will add in Masem's addition of "condemned by the mass media" - then I support. starship.paint ~ regal 00:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The phrase "mass media" pigeonholes the criticism, though — there's been pretty broad condemnation of the harassment from figures not just in the media, but in academia, the video games industry and gaming culture — which goes toward DHeyward's point of ensuring we don't conflate the small minority with the broader majority. I'm not opposed to some phrasing there, but "mass media" is not broad enough. How about
media, academics and video gaming figures
? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)- IMO it is very natural for others in the gaming industry to condemn harassment of game developers. Pardon my ignorance but could you inform me which are the condemnations coming from academics? starship.paint ~ regal 00:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there's the whole DiGRA thing, for one. and . Others: , , etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, (I didn't listen to the Iowa one though and it's not condemned in words) the main problem I see is with "broadly condemned". I don't doubt that GamerGate is broadly condemned by those in the video games industry and the mass media, but would it be accurate to say that it is "broadly condemned" by academics? That would require many more examples. Perhaps if you cancel "broadly", then you can mention academics. starship.paint ~ regal 00:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would more say that we only have a couple data points so far from the academic side to say that is been condemned (if not broadly condemned), though that's not to say that this is likely the academics' position, simply a lack of sourcing for it. VG industry we can speak to, the mass media we can speak to, but we can't speak to academics. My only concern with adding a phrase of the type "by the mass media" is to make sure the "who" is addressed so they know exactly where to look in our article for sources to confirm, any clarification towards that point, I'm fine with. --MASEM (t) 00:52, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I can keep finding more sources if need be. , , , , , , etc. etc. How many would you like? Considering that the world of video gaming academia is not particularly huge, this is a significant cross-section. I don't think the statement should be particularly controversial — we can qualify by saying "gaming academics" if that narrows the field sufficiently. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah okay you can leave in "broadly", and go with "gaming academics". starship.paint ~ regal 01:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Two quick things: first wordsmithing to remove the doubly-close "and" as well as grouping things better: "...condemned by the video game industry and academics, the media, and community figures as...". Second is a bit of small correct " The movement's harassment and threats, which have..." - we don't have 100% connection of the movement to harassment, but we do know the harassment was done under the GG banner. So instead "Harassment and threats generated by users under the Gamergate hashtag/banner, which have..." might be better. --MASEM (t) 01:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- And if that second piece is reasonable, we should be able able to add "Harassment and threats....are sexist and misogynistic, and has considered to have tainted and overshadowed the movement's concerns." or some wording to re-add about how this has harmed the image of the movement, as this is a key point in the article. --MASEM (t) 01:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, I think if we go there, it's going to get way too much into the debate over "does Gamergate have legitimate concerns" which is a contentious discussion best left where it is, the third paragraph NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- As much as it can be called a movement, the harassment has been attributed to it. That is, you can't enjoy the benefits of a single flag when you want them and, at the same time, deny collective responsibility when you don't want it. Proposing
Gamergate supporters are widely viewed as responsible for ongoing harassment and threats, targeting primarily women in the video game industry. These attacks have been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic by media, video gaming academics, industry and community figures.
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:51, 3 December 2014 (UTC)- I understand and agree with the point, but I'm not 100% sure that we can say "GG supporters are widely views as responsible for ..."; many sources, at least as I take them, know that the main body of GG users aren't likely doing the harassment, but their inability to stop it, condemn it, or distance themselves from it makes them complicit in some reporters' view. Others take the view that GG is directly responsible. We know that whomever did the harassing inferred via hashtagging or the like, no question there. So perhaps "Harassment and threats performed under the GG name..." and then don't add the second suggestion. It doesn't factually say the movement's at fault but neither clears them, nor begs the question of their ethics like you said. --MASEM (t) 02:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The threats against Ms. Sarkeesian are the most noxious example of a weekslong campaign to discredit or intimidate outspoken critics of the male-dominated gaming industry and its culture. The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. That's from The New York Times. The NYT directly attributes the threats and harassment to supporters of Gamergate. We're not saying all supporters of Gamergate, but they are supporters of Gamergate. "Performed under the GG name" infers that the harassment isn't really aligned with Gamergate, and that's the precise opposite of what the sources say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changed the font to not confuse with proposed wording. I think allied with a broader movement as per the New York Times is the whole point. Perhaps
A portion of Gamergate supporters are widely viewed as responsible
... etc. Actually there might be a small distinction between "allied with" and "is a part of" but I'm not too inclined to pursue that further. starship.paint ~ regal 03:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)- True enough, Starship; I've tweaked it to "some." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm fine with "some" for purposes of lead brevity. --MASEM (t) 04:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- We musnt get too far away from the analysis that the GG is purposefully maintaining a " 'plausible' deniability" organization strategy to maintain the visibility gained from the harassment while claiming that they cannot be held culpable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:58, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm fine with "some" for purposes of lead brevity. --MASEM (t) 04:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- True enough, Starship; I've tweaked it to "some." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think "video game academics" exist do they (I think "social critics" might be better term)? Harassment has been condemned by virtually everyone. Sexism being condemned in the gaming industry would be done by social critics, certain journalists and named developers. Condemnation of sexism/tropes/male gaze has been much more limited to specific instances by much smaller critics (i.e. Sarkheesian is a social critic that highlights these issues) . The Blizzard CEO, for example, condemned harassment which was reported as a condemnation of GamerGate. He then introduced his next game containing trope/male gaze characters and nobody batted an eye. Again harassment is to GamerGate what Terrorism is to Islam. The same people that stood up and applauded the Blizzard CEO for condemning harassment then bought/reviewed his trope/male gaze video game. What gamers, developers and publishers didn't want to hear (and didn't as only only one or two journalists picked it up) was that they were misogynists for buying and/or playing the game. The article needs to be careful about attributing identities with actions. More careful than the press. It's very likely that harassers/misogynists support gamergate. (ISIS terrorist are very likel islamic). Not nearly as incendiary as saying supporters of GamerGate are harassers/misogynists ("supporters of Islam are ISIS terrorists."). This is the pitfall of identity politics and flipping the equivalency is not okay (except for those that oppose both identities). --DHeyward (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, video game academics exist. Hence, y'know, Digital Games Research Association. The rest of your post is veering off into a different territory and I'd like to keep this thread on topic. You're right that Gamergate doesn't represent all gamers, and that's fair enough reason to tweak on the lede so that it doesn't suggest so. But Gamergate, the movement, is inextricably tied to misogynistic harassment and to pretend otherwise simply isn't in keeping with the clear and unambiguous consensus of reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Then say DiGRA if you mean DiGRA and source it. I don't see any sources for "video game academics" existing outside that group and that statement is an appeal to authority argument without any RS's backing it up. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The sources are presented above and in the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Then say DiGRA if you mean DiGRA and source it. I don't see any sources for "video game academics" existing outside that group and that statement is an appeal to authority argument without any RS's backing it up. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, video game academics exist. Hence, y'know, Digital Games Research Association. The rest of your post is veering off into a different territory and I'd like to keep this thread on topic. You're right that Gamergate doesn't represent all gamers, and that's fair enough reason to tweak on the lede so that it doesn't suggest so. But Gamergate, the movement, is inextricably tied to misogynistic harassment and to pretend otherwise simply isn't in keeping with the clear and unambiguous consensus of reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changed the font to not confuse with proposed wording. I think allied with a broader movement as per the New York Times is the whole point. Perhaps
- The threats against Ms. Sarkeesian are the most noxious example of a weekslong campaign to discredit or intimidate outspoken critics of the male-dominated gaming industry and its culture. The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. That's from The New York Times. The NYT directly attributes the threats and harassment to supporters of Gamergate. We're not saying all supporters of Gamergate, but they are supporters of Gamergate. "Performed under the GG name" infers that the harassment isn't really aligned with Gamergate, and that's the precise opposite of what the sources say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I understand and agree with the point, but I'm not 100% sure that we can say "GG supporters are widely views as responsible for ..."; many sources, at least as I take them, know that the main body of GG users aren't likely doing the harassment, but their inability to stop it, condemn it, or distance themselves from it makes them complicit in some reporters' view. Others take the view that GG is directly responsible. We know that whomever did the harassing inferred via hashtagging or the like, no question there. So perhaps "Harassment and threats performed under the GG name..." and then don't add the second suggestion. It doesn't factually say the movement's at fault but neither clears them, nor begs the question of their ethics like you said. --MASEM (t) 02:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- And if that second piece is reasonable, we should be able able to add "Harassment and threats....are sexist and misogynistic, and has considered to have tainted and overshadowed the movement's concerns." or some wording to re-add about how this has harmed the image of the movement, as this is a key point in the article. --MASEM (t) 01:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, (I didn't listen to the Iowa one though and it's not condemned in words) the main problem I see is with "broadly condemned". I don't doubt that GamerGate is broadly condemned by those in the video games industry and the mass media, but would it be accurate to say that it is "broadly condemned" by academics? That would require many more examples. Perhaps if you cancel "broadly", then you can mention academics. starship.paint ~ regal 00:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there's the whole DiGRA thing, for one. and . Others: , , etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- IMO it is very natural for others in the gaming industry to condemn harassment of game developers. Pardon my ignorance but could you inform me which are the condemnations coming from academics? starship.paint ~ regal 00:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The phrase "mass media" pigeonholes the criticism, though — there's been pretty broad condemnation of the harassment from figures not just in the media, but in academia, the video games industry and gaming culture — which goes toward DHeyward's point of ensuring we don't conflate the small minority with the broader majority. I'm not opposed to some phrasing there, but "mass media" is not broad enough. How about
- Support Very plain and neutral, seems like an accurate reflection of the article and an improvement on the current one. I'd suggest linking video game culture though. HalfHat 10:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Support - I am satisfied with the tweaks made. In addition, I hope that the sources about academics are indeed in the article as North claims above. starship.paint ~ regal 00:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Some of those which I presented are currently in the article, and if it's unprotected I will be happy to add the others. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps those sources about academics could be worked into the draft? starship.paint ~ regal 03:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Can we get some closure / consensus (approvals LOL) on this? @Masem: / @DHeyward: - please read "00:56, 3 December 2014" / @Msalt: / @ReynTime: / @Stunteddwarf: / @TheRedPenOfDoom: / @Ranze: - this solves your overwhelming issue starship.paint ~ regal 12:44, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Although dropping 'overwhelming' is a step in the right direction, I do not agree that 'majority of commentators' is necessarily accurate. Commentators is too broad a term if we are only going to weigh people who win the reliable-sources-game when it comes to Misplaced Pages citations. I would accept "many commentators" or "majority of sources used on this article". Ranze (talk) 08:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Some of those which I presented are currently in the article, and if it's unprotected I will be happy to add the others. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Article focus: Is this WP article to be about the Gamergate group or the Gamergate controversy?
In reading the long discussions here and in other locations on WP such as the ArbCom pages, I’ve noticed that the editors on this article seem to have two conflicting ideas as to what this article is about. Some seem to believe the article is about describing a series of events that occurred in the video game industry in the fall of 2014. Some, by contrast, seem to believe that the article is about describing “Gamergaters”, the people behind the actions. We need to make a decision on what the focus is going to be as this will have a large bearing on what kind of statements we can appropriately make in the article itself.
For example, many new editors here and on the ArbCom pages appear to be very invested in describing the group of people calling themselves “Gamergaters.” They state that the article cannot refer to these people as “misogynistic” because that is passing a “moral judgment” on those people. (I disagree with this statement, incidentally, as I don’t believe this is an issue of moral judgment but simply one of description, but nevertheless that is what some editors are saying.) However, if the article is about the acts and not the people behind the acts, then obviously the acts themselves are clearly misogynistic and need to be stated as such in line with the RSes we have. And obviously it is immoral to send rape and death threats to industry figures, predominantly female, in an attempt to terrorize them out of the industry. I don’t think anyone can argue that that is moral behavior.
If the consensus is that the article is about the controversy and not the group, then these descriptions are required because there is no disagreement in the RSes about the awfulness of these actions. But if the article is to be about the group, it would need to be restructured, perhaps along the lines of the Anonymous (group) article, with a lede that we could, in fact, crib directly from that article and suitably adjust: Gamergate (used as a mass noun) is a loosely associated international network of entities organized primarily around Internet gathering areas such as Reddit and various anonymous image boards. It has been characterized by anonymous individuals claiming membership as being devoted to the cause of promoting ethics in game journalism. The group became known for a series of well-publicized harassment attacks on figures in the video game industry, predominantly women, pursued via Twitter, email, and other anonymous digital attack vectors.
Then have a section to list the most notable attacks; the group's (short) history, genesis, and christening, to the extent that it is known; a section for analysis of the validity of the group's claims; and a section for the reaction of the world in general to the group.
Also, the talk page here has gotten derailed onto a strange discussion about the "fringe" of Gamergate. This discussion is only relevant if the article is actually to be about the group itself and not the controversy, and in that case, I don't see how this concept of “fringe Gamergate” has any validity given that Gamergate, by conscious design, has no center. It has no official leaders, no membership roll, no standards, no official agenda. To be a member of Gamergate, literally all you have to do is utilize a certain Twitter hashtag for a certain purpose. You can’t talk about the “fringe” of Gamergate any more than you can talk about the “fringe” of Anonymous. So let’s try to get a consensus here: Is this article just about what was done under the Gamergate hashtag and rubric, in which case editors need to stop complaining about entirely apt and sourced terms like misogynistic, or is this article about the loose anonymous group calling itself Gamergate, in which case it needs a thorough restructuring? I am not certain that the group itself is notable enough to get a page dedicated to describing it – certainly they have done nothing nearly as impactful as the actions of Anonymous. But if this page is about the controversy, the actions themselves, then editors should stop asserting that statements made about the actions equate to statements made about the group. ReynTime (talk) 09:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've been using the term "fringe" to discuss the fact that Gamergate's claims clearly fall under Misplaced Pages's fringe theories guideline and in terms of making sure our article is clear that Gamergate is a fringe element within gaming culture, and doesn't represent even a significant minority of gamers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Right, I was mostly referring to DHeyward's, Masem's, and starship.paint's posts about the Gamergate "fringe", as in "the core of Gamergate isn't doing that bad stuff, it's the fringe." I'm not contesting that Gamergate is a fringe viewpoint, which it clearly is. Only that you can't have a fringe unless you define the center, and Gamergate deliberately has no defined center. ReynTime (talk) 10:12, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree that that to view the harassment as coming from a "fringe" within Gamergate is not supportable based on the reliable sources. It certainly isn't coming from everyone who supports Gamergate, but it's not a tiny minority either. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:13, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually we do have sourcing in place already that says it's a vocal minority believed responsible for the harassment, or possibly even not from the same group (other users that just want to stir the pot). They don't remove the guilt by association for GG in general due to harassment. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Which sources are those? Artw (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- NPR, Slate. --MASEM (t) 15:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see nothing in the NPR article to support the "vocal minority" argument. The Auerbach opinion peice is just dumb. Artw (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- NPR, Slate. --MASEM (t) 15:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Which sources are those? Artw (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think we're ever going to get perfect agreement on this issue, as it is largely subjective. The last two bits on this Brianna Wu story discuss this angle, basically... "Some Gamergaters say the harassers are just a vocal minority, but to the outside world there's no distinction between the ethics GG'er and the harasser GG'er."Tarc (talk) 15:31, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's rather weak sauce: "We may not be actually performing the harassment we've been encouraging, says maybe-representative of inherently untrustworthy group" - I would lean towards not including it. Artw (talk) 15:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- No one is saying they are "encouraging" harassing, but the atmosphere they've created internally is one where harassment as an option to express discontent is not strongly condemned/discouraged, which is what the press sees. There are some trying to uncover the harassers but they haven't gotten a lot of press coverage beyond one or two pieces. --MASEM (t) 15:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- How can anyone at all know that the harassers of Gamergate are a "minority" when there's no membership count? In order to factually establish minority status someone would have to count all Gamergaters, then count the harassers, then determine what percentage that was. None of these numbers exists nor can possibly exist as long as Gamergate has no structure or organization. (No, membership on the subreddit doesn't count as real data.) Anyone saying that the harassers are a vocal minority is speaking from opinion and not from fact, so I don't see how WP can include any factual statement indicating how much of the nebulous cloud that is "Gamergate" engages in harassment. And that's even if you could agree on a definition of what behavior exactly crosses the line from simple obnoxiousness into harassment, which...good luck. All anyone can factually state is that the majority of the threats and harassment received by the victims in this mess was done under the banner of "Gamergate", mostly by direct use of the hashtag on Twitter, some via other communications (email, phone) where membership in Gamergate was claimed by the harassers. ReynTime (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sources have used the subscriber count at reddit KIA's board to get a number, which a while ago (when reported) was at 10,000; and yes, the sources note this is the best estimate they got. There was also another data source that I'd have to find (and I don't think it was an high quality RS but an RS nevertheless) that put the number of very active proGGers at around 450 based on twitter messages (eg unique accounts using the #gg hashtag). But we have no reliable sources that affirms any self-identified member of the GG movement (the "ethics") stuff engaged in harassment. It is very likely there are some, no doubt, but that's OR to say that. And we do have sources that say some members of the GG movement are trying to end/discover those that engaged in harassment, so we can't say every GG movement member is part of the harassment. The movement, as an entity (not a collection of people) is still called out as a environment that fosters the use of harassment to silence people they disagree with, but you can't pin that on any specific named person, nor to every person within it. --MASEM (t) 18:29, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- When the harassment is largely conducted via anonymous social media, of course people who harass using it aren't going to identify themselves via their real names. That doesn't change the responsibility at all. It doesn't. Moreover, there is no separate "ethics stuff" and you cannot intimate that the "real" goal of Gamergate is "ethics in gaming journalism" because... yeah, that's not what the reliable sources say. At all. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- As my lengthy statement that started off this section shows, I don't think we can say anything at all about Gamergate as a group, or at least not anything more than we say about Anonymous: That they exist, that they have no structure or organization, that they operate via the Internet, and that the only way to define this group is by cataloging the things done under their name. Since this article is, as far as I can tell, intended to be about the events called the "Gamergate controversy" and not about the Gamergate group, we really shouldn't be saying much of anything at all about the group's composition if it's not backed up by solid reporting in the RSes. Membership in a subreddit is not useful data; many people have multiple Reddit accounts, and many people sub to subreddits just to be able to track the subreddit and not because they necessarily support the group or engage in its activities. None of the numbers regarding Gamergate are verifiable WP:V at all. I think we will make a lot more progress in getting this article into readable shape if we divorce the material that is actually verifiable through RSes from material that is all pure supposition and guesswork (How big the "Gamergate group" is, what percentage of it harasses, whether or not the people involved are misogynistic/immoral/noble warriors for truth, justice and ethics, et cetera and so on and so forth ad nauseum.) Our article should catalog the events of the controversy as reported in the RSes and not engage in identity politics or try to define the people involved in the Gamergate group for either good or ill. ReynTime (talk) 18:57, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- We can use the metrics that RS have identified to estimate their numbers, as long as we source/name the publication that does that, so that we're clear it's a rough estimation and absolutely not an official number. It gives a very ballpark figure what the size of the group is to the reader. --MASEM (t) 19:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, which metrics are you referring to specifically? The numbers you gave up above aren't sourced. ReynTime (talk) 20:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- We can use the metrics that RS have identified to estimate their numbers, as long as we source/name the publication that does that, so that we're clear it's a rough estimation and absolutely not an official number. It gives a very ballpark figure what the size of the group is to the reader. --MASEM (t) 19:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is ignorant to pretend that the GG side has not self-stated ethics claims just because the press keep going back to the "but ethics" issues. It doesn't matter if the claims are impossible to enact, are oxymorons like "objective reviews" or the like; some documentation of those self-stated claims have been made, and thus we should discuss them (We do, but we could do better organization to be more impartial within the context of a FRINGE viewpoint). We can also easily document the reason these claims are deemed silly by the press, as well as the fact that a large number of the press think any attempt to justify GG as an ethics front is really trying to mask the environment of harassment (which we have already too). The way I see to keep everything we have and without introducing any new material is simply to organize all the bits and pieces about "GG as an ethics movement" in to short 2-3 paragraph section, and then the rest of the article would primarily about the harassment events, and the critiicism of the "but ethics!"/ethics as a front for harassment that we have already. That would isolate the movement itself in a small section, relative to the weight of the rest of the article, and make it clear how the lines are drawn out in the press. --MASEM (t) 19:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- A section titled "Gamergate as an ethics movement" states, as fact, that they are an ethics movement, which is not supported by the reliably-sourced evidence. Rather, the idea that they're interested in ethics is a topic of significant debate and is generally rejected outside the movement, and we appropriately title the section accordingly. At best we have sources that say "well, there are some people in Gamergate who say they are interested in ethics," which doesn't permit us in the least to say that "Gamergate is an ethics movement." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to say they are not an ethics movement, but that's also to say that there is also no evidence, beyond the group's claim, that they are an ethics movement as well. It is a clear predominate opinion that GG is not an ethics movement, and that's got to be presented as such. But it's not appropriate to ignore the sourcable-to-3rd-parties self-stated claims that the movement had made about itself; again. I wouldn't necessary call the section "GG as an ethics movement", I would simply call it the "GG movement" (as there is also a "consumer revolt" angle too that is self-stated that we can source), and make sure that within the discussion to note that much of the press have difficulty in accepting that a movement without a leader by mostly anonymous people could really be a movement. --MASEM (t) 19:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- We have been over this, and yes there are many sources which deny the attribution of "ethics movement" to gamergate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, in that if there were a heading labeled "GG as an ethics movement", all we would have under it would be words to the effect of "GG says they are an ethics movement, but no one else in the world agrees with their definition of ethics; and also, even by their fringe definition of the word, they haven't actually accomplished anything of note," and a very long list of citations about how the "ethics!" talk is anything but credible. What else would go in there? Can any editor provide a single instance of any accomplishment by individuals acting on behalf of the Gamergate movement that advanced the cause of ethics, as the term is defined by the greater world? I'd really like to see it. ReynTime (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes - the fact many gaming sites have started to include disclosure statements, one of the original ethics claims of GG. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sources please? Which sites, what changes were made, how substantial, and does the site itself credit Gamergate for the change in a positive way? As I understand it, what actually happened was that these sites had existing policies already in place but merely acted to make those policies more visible. Does that count as a notable achievement for ethics? ReynTime (talk) 20:08, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Even if we grant that as an accomplishment, one barely-noted event three months ago cannot be said to define a movement which later went on to international media infamy for its penchant for mob harassment and death threats. We already discuss that event in our article... and it is the one and only example of anything meaningful which anyone can cite. Meanwhile, there is a veritable flurry of reliable sources right now discussing how Gamergate's harassment campaigns so disgusted the general public that Twitter has been forced to upgrade its blocking and reporting functions. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes - the fact many gaming sites have started to include disclosure statements, one of the original ethics claims of GG. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Many sources make the claim that GG is not an ethics movement, that's fine. They are not sources in a position of any authority to state as a fact that GG is not about ethics, since all they are going on is a pattern of behavior, not any actual analysis of the membership or the like. It's a predominate opinion, one that is properly reflected in the article, but we cannot treat is as fact when it comes to article organization or verbage. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, Gamergate doesn't have actual membership so you're asking for something that can't exist. Gamergate is intentionally leaderless, unorganized and anonymous. Such a "movement" cannot then logically complain about being analyzed as if they are leaderless, unorganized and anonymous — which means that their behavior is the only thing anyone can go by. Reliable sources have drawn a conclusion at this point, and you're in no position to rebut those sources by demanding impossible evidence. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Intentionally leadership" citation needed. I'm sure that's a claim made by the press, but here's the problem - everyone is trying to assess the motivations of Gamergate based on behavior and not actually speaking to any specific person or persons or groups. The closest we got was the Boston Globe editor that spoke to KIA to try to get some information and came out with little solid. If the motivations were well documented, that would be the facts we can use to make all these claims, but there is no established motivation, which makes the press's statements all their opinions and conclusions, but at the same time wears away at any credibility that GG may have. We still must be neutral and impartial. It readily apparent that when you step away to look at the GG situation from the 60,000 ft level, without emotion or the like, that the press is making its fair share of reasonably conclusions based on the little evidence as provided, but that's only their conclusions, it does not make them true. We don't do that when the press calls out Westboro as a hate group or Scientology as a scam, we cannot do it here for GG with what is presently reported. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Citation right here and right here. Chan culture disdains leaders, and leadership inevitably means identifiability and accountability, both of which Gamergate has studiously avoided.
- We are neutral. We discuss the fact that Gamergate claims that it's about ethics. We also discuss the fact that literally everyone else thinks that's bullshit. That's "neutrality" in Misplaced Pages's sense. We are not required to give equal time, equal space or equal credence to all viewpoints. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:24, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, because of Gamergate's disdain for official organization, there is no one who is a position to give an official statement as to the group's motivations. This leaves outsiders to the group in the position of having to infer their motivation from their deeds, which the RSes have tried to do. This is entirely fair given that the group cannot expect to have the benefits of the lack of centralization (no one to be held accountable for the group's actions) without also having the downside, which is that there is literally no one who can make official statements about what the group is "really" about, who leads it, what behavior will and will not be tolerated by the membership, who is allowed to speak and act officially for the group, and so on. Again, the group has deliberately set themselves up this way, to make it necessary to infer their motivations rather than just ask them for an official statement, and therefore this is an entirely fair way to approach the question of their motivations as a group. It's the only method they've allowed. ReynTime (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- (to both) That's about the chan culture, and which yes, I agree GG is certainly connected to and the implication is there and Occum's Razor, but that does not say "GG movement has specifically avoided any leadership", in a manner we can speak in WP's voice. We certainly can use sources that say that GG's lack of leadership is likely from its chan roots, which have typically been against any form of leadership, citing those sources, but we can't say that GG has purposely chose to remain leaderless because we would need statements from GG members to affirm that. If no one speaks to the GG group about their motiviations or ideals, no one can make a valid claim as to what they actually are, and can only make assumptions and guesswork from their actions. Again, to stress, the opinions that GG is nothing about ethics due to harassment is predominate and clear and must be presented, but we cannot write that in WP's voice or work the article in that fashion treating this as a fact. There's a lot of logic pitfalls that the lack of information from GG is creating here, but that doesn't mean we fill those gaps by treating opinions as facts from other sources, and that's what is happening here when we make assumptions on this talk page like "GG is not a movement" or "GG is not about ethics". Instead we should be saying "GG claims to be a movement but they don't demonstrate it well".
- "Intentionally leadership" citation needed. I'm sure that's a claim made by the press, but here's the problem - everyone is trying to assess the motivations of Gamergate based on behavior and not actually speaking to any specific person or persons or groups. The closest we got was the Boston Globe editor that spoke to KIA to try to get some information and came out with little solid. If the motivations were well documented, that would be the facts we can use to make all these claims, but there is no established motivation, which makes the press's statements all their opinions and conclusions, but at the same time wears away at any credibility that GG may have. We still must be neutral and impartial. It readily apparent that when you step away to look at the GG situation from the 60,000 ft level, without emotion or the like, that the press is making its fair share of reasonably conclusions based on the little evidence as provided, but that's only their conclusions, it does not make them true. We don't do that when the press calls out Westboro as a hate group or Scientology as a scam, we cannot do it here for GG with what is presently reported. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, Gamergate doesn't have actual membership so you're asking for something that can't exist. Gamergate is intentionally leaderless, unorganized and anonymous. Such a "movement" cannot then logically complain about being analyzed as if they are leaderless, unorganized and anonymous — which means that their behavior is the only thing anyone can go by. Reliable sources have drawn a conclusion at this point, and you're in no position to rebut those sources by demanding impossible evidence. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, in that if there were a heading labeled "GG as an ethics movement", all we would have under it would be words to the effect of "GG says they are an ethics movement, but no one else in the world agrees with their definition of ethics; and also, even by their fringe definition of the word, they haven't actually accomplished anything of note," and a very long list of citations about how the "ethics!" talk is anything but credible. What else would go in there? Can any editor provide a single instance of any accomplishment by individuals acting on behalf of the Gamergate movement that advanced the cause of ethics, as the term is defined by the greater world? I'd really like to see it. ReynTime (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- We have been over this, and yes there are many sources which deny the attribution of "ethics movement" to gamergate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to say they are not an ethics movement, but that's also to say that there is also no evidence, beyond the group's claim, that they are an ethics movement as well. It is a clear predominate opinion that GG is not an ethics movement, and that's got to be presented as such. But it's not appropriate to ignore the sourcable-to-3rd-parties self-stated claims that the movement had made about itself; again. I wouldn't necessary call the section "GG as an ethics movement", I would simply call it the "GG movement" (as there is also a "consumer revolt" angle too that is self-stated that we can source), and make sure that within the discussion to note that much of the press have difficulty in accepting that a movement without a leader by mostly anonymous people could really be a movement. --MASEM (t) 19:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- A section titled "Gamergate as an ethics movement" states, as fact, that they are an ethics movement, which is not supported by the reliably-sourced evidence. Rather, the idea that they're interested in ethics is a topic of significant debate and is generally rejected outside the movement, and we appropriately title the section accordingly. At best we have sources that say "well, there are some people in Gamergate who say they are interested in ethics," which doesn't permit us in the least to say that "Gamergate is an ethics movement." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- As my lengthy statement that started off this section shows, I don't think we can say anything at all about Gamergate as a group, or at least not anything more than we say about Anonymous: That they exist, that they have no structure or organization, that they operate via the Internet, and that the only way to define this group is by cataloging the things done under their name. Since this article is, as far as I can tell, intended to be about the events called the "Gamergate controversy" and not about the Gamergate group, we really shouldn't be saying much of anything at all about the group's composition if it's not backed up by solid reporting in the RSes. Membership in a subreddit is not useful data; many people have multiple Reddit accounts, and many people sub to subreddits just to be able to track the subreddit and not because they necessarily support the group or engage in its activities. None of the numbers regarding Gamergate are verifiable WP:V at all. I think we will make a lot more progress in getting this article into readable shape if we divorce the material that is actually verifiable through RSes from material that is all pure supposition and guesswork (How big the "Gamergate group" is, what percentage of it harasses, whether or not the people involved are misogynistic/immoral/noble warriors for truth, justice and ethics, et cetera and so on and so forth ad nauseum.) Our article should catalog the events of the controversy as reported in the RSes and not engage in identity politics or try to define the people involved in the Gamergate group for either good or ill. ReynTime (talk) 18:57, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- When the harassment is largely conducted via anonymous social media, of course people who harass using it aren't going to identify themselves via their real names. That doesn't change the responsibility at all. It doesn't. Moreover, there is no separate "ethics stuff" and you cannot intimate that the "real" goal of Gamergate is "ethics in gaming journalism" because... yeah, that's not what the reliable sources say. At all. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sources have used the subscriber count at reddit KIA's board to get a number, which a while ago (when reported) was at 10,000; and yes, the sources note this is the best estimate they got. There was also another data source that I'd have to find (and I don't think it was an high quality RS but an RS nevertheless) that put the number of very active proGGers at around 450 based on twitter messages (eg unique accounts using the #gg hashtag). But we have no reliable sources that affirms any self-identified member of the GG movement (the "ethics") stuff engaged in harassment. It is very likely there are some, no doubt, but that's OR to say that. And we do have sources that say some members of the GG movement are trying to end/discover those that engaged in harassment, so we can't say every GG movement member is part of the harassment. The movement, as an entity (not a collection of people) is still called out as a environment that fosters the use of harassment to silence people they disagree with, but you can't pin that on any specific named person, nor to every person within it. --MASEM (t) 18:29, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- How can anyone at all know that the harassers of Gamergate are a "minority" when there's no membership count? In order to factually establish minority status someone would have to count all Gamergaters, then count the harassers, then determine what percentage that was. None of these numbers exists nor can possibly exist as long as Gamergate has no structure or organization. (No, membership on the subreddit doesn't count as real data.) Anyone saying that the harassers are a vocal minority is speaking from opinion and not from fact, so I don't see how WP can include any factual statement indicating how much of the nebulous cloud that is "Gamergate" engages in harassment. And that's even if you could agree on a definition of what behavior exactly crosses the line from simple obnoxiousness into harassment, which...good luck. All anyone can factually state is that the majority of the threats and harassment received by the victims in this mess was done under the banner of "Gamergate", mostly by direct use of the hashtag on Twitter, some via other communications (email, phone) where membership in Gamergate was claimed by the harassers. ReynTime (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- No one is saying they are "encouraging" harassing, but the atmosphere they've created internally is one where harassment as an option to express discontent is not strongly condemned/discouraged, which is what the press sees. There are some trying to uncover the harassers but they haven't gotten a lot of press coverage beyond one or two pieces. --MASEM (t) 15:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's rather weak sauce: "We may not be actually performing the harassment we've been encouraging, says maybe-representative of inherently untrustworthy group" - I would lean towards not including it. Artw (talk) 15:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually we do have sourcing in place already that says it's a vocal minority believed responsible for the harassment, or possibly even not from the same group (other users that just want to stir the pot). They don't remove the guilt by association for GG in general due to harassment. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree that that to view the harassment as coming from a "fringe" within Gamergate is not supportable based on the reliable sources. It certainly isn't coming from everyone who supports Gamergate, but it's not a tiny minority either. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:13, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Right, I was mostly referring to DHeyward's, Masem's, and starship.paint's posts about the Gamergate "fringe", as in "the core of Gamergate isn't doing that bad stuff, it's the fringe." I'm not contesting that Gamergate is a fringe viewpoint, which it clearly is. Only that you can't have a fringe unless you define the center, and Gamergate deliberately has no defined center. ReynTime (talk) 10:12, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Also keep in mind: there are 9 major facets of WP:NPOV, weight and balance are only two. I'm well past the issue of weight and balance, but we're still far from impartial as well as still not using only the best sources that we can. --MASEM (t) 20:39, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are confused about what it means to “speak in WP’s voice.” WP’s “voice” is merely the synthesis – the distillation, if you will – of what the RSes on the topic are saying. In order to make a case that this article has an inappropriate voice, you need to show how it differs from the consensus of the RSes. I am not seeing this. Instead, I am seeing you say that even though the RSes say that there is nothing substantive at all in GG’s claims to be about ethics, WP’s “voice” should give that viewpoint a fair airing because anonymous people claiming to be in Gamergate are insisting that it is true. That is not the case. Anonymous people claiming to be members of a group that has no official organization, stance, agenda, position, or anything but a hashtag, a subreddit, and a bunch of threads on an imageboard do not get to influence WP’s “voice.” They simply don’t. ReynTime (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- We are supposed to distill sources, and when sources give opinions make sure those are cited as opinions and not spoken as fact in WP's voice. But there's also a matter of avoiding advocacy, both for and against GG, and the way this article is structures and choices of certain language facts, it toes that line towards being an anti-GG advocacy piece. See, for example, the above discussion to rework the lede para into something that is more impartial without conceding anything (if in fact putting more weight towards) the antiGG side of the GG situation, specifically by moving the misogyny aspect to the point where it applies most, the harassment and criticism of GG but not the core of the conflict from both sides.
- As an example of where impartiality is not being give a fair shake is how diffuse we discuss anything credible about the proGG side before including the press piece that tear into it. We're going to have the press criticism, no question about that, but by diluting all the aspects of GG with criticism, we are not neutrally reporting on GG and instead speaking more from the anti-GG piece; it is the equivalent of acting like the press must get the last work in, injecting that opinion into every point of the article. Simply by reordering some parts of the article - adding no new sources or information outside of phrasing and grammar for readability and flow, we can present the GG side in small coherent set of paragraphs (2-4 at most), and then let the press sourcing do the rest of the work for us to provide the strong and overwhelming amount of criticism against GG (stating that as the press's opinion, obviously). I have contended for some time now that this article is 90% fine, and just needs a bit of wordsmithing and reorg, and not the addition of new sources, to make it more impartial without changing the balance/weight aspect. --MASEM (t) 21:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are confused about what it means to “speak in WP’s voice.” WP’s “voice” is merely the synthesis – the distillation, if you will – of what the RSes on the topic are saying. In order to make a case that this article has an inappropriate voice, you need to show how it differs from the consensus of the RSes. I am not seeing this. Instead, I am seeing you say that even though the RSes say that there is nothing substantive at all in GG’s claims to be about ethics, WP’s “voice” should give that viewpoint a fair airing because anonymous people claiming to be in Gamergate are insisting that it is true. That is not the case. Anonymous people claiming to be members of a group that has no official organization, stance, agenda, position, or anything but a hashtag, a subreddit, and a bunch of threads on an imageboard do not get to influence WP’s “voice.” They simply don’t. ReynTime (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Also keep in mind: there are 9 major facets of WP:NPOV, weight and balance are only two. I'm well past the issue of weight and balance, but we're still far from impartial as well as still not using only the best sources that we can. --MASEM (t) 20:39, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- “acting like the press must get the last work (sic) in”: By the press, you mean the RSes? If the “last word” doesn’t go to the RSes, who do you think it most appropriately goes to? Are you seriously arguing that anonymous individuals claiming to be members of Gamergate, but who cannot speak with any authority about the movement because the movement has no authority (again by its own design and intent), should get the “last word in” instead? Yes, the last word belongs to the RSes. That’s one of the core principles of this encyclopedia. That is who must get the last word, Masem. There is no one who can officially speak for Gamergate. It’s not possible. There is no official Gamergate. Just volunteers who can in no way speak for any other member of the group and who cannot be considered any kind of a source at all for Misplaced Pages’s purposes, let alone a reliable one. We can’t put forth an article where we put the New York Times on one side, and “balance” the other side with the opinions of “some random guy who tweets under a hashtag”. That’s ludicrous. ReynTime (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually yeah, there is lots of evidence that they're not an ethics movement, and I'm not sure why you think we should ignore it. Their lack of meaningful ethics claims, their incredibly-unethical tactics, their origin in misogynistic, slut-shaming attacks on Zoe Quinn, etc., all of this and more has led reliable sources to conclude that they are not seriously concerned with actual ethical issues. The lack of anything meaningful emerging from Gamergate in a month or so is a telling point. Surely there are ethical issues they can come up with... or no, wait, they're too harassing Brianna Wu over her dead dog. Such ethics as one has never seen before.
- Gamergate's most notable action of late has been its harassment being widely cited as responsible for Twitter upgrading its abuse prevention function. As we get further away from the major initial events, it's clear that the most significant impact the movement has had is bringing worldwide attention to the issue of anonymous Internet harassment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:53, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- All that is their conclusion as press members, not as authoritative experts in the article (which I would expect to be social science academics and the like). We as WP cannot use opinions of the press to state something as a fact in WP's, nor should be led by the press to write in a non-neutral fashion. Yes, there's not much that GG has for it that we can really build on and their case for anything positive in the article is weak to nil at best -- but we have to remain neutral and cannot sway our writing (not balance) because of the lack of information or the predominate opinion of the press. We can write out their opinions as the major aspect of this article, but we cannot pretend that those opinions are fact, because what really is GG actually is factually unknown. --MASEM (t) 20:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- The nature of the group membership is unknown by the group's own deliberate choice, but the facts of what has been done (harassment, death threats) and not done (ethics) under the Gamergate banner are quite public. Saying that the visible actions taken under this rubric of "Gamergate" have been all about harassment and not about ethics is a statement of fact. We don't have to circumlocute around this point to spare the feelings of a group of people who have chosen to remain anonymous, leaderless, and without organization or official purpose of any kind. ReynTime (talk) 20:14, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- All that is their conclusion as press members, not as authoritative experts in the article (which I would expect to be social science academics and the like). We as WP cannot use opinions of the press to state something as a fact in WP's, nor should be led by the press to write in a non-neutral fashion. Yes, there's not much that GG has for it that we can really build on and their case for anything positive in the article is weak to nil at best -- but we have to remain neutral and cannot sway our writing (not balance) because of the lack of information or the predominate opinion of the press. We can write out their opinions as the major aspect of this article, but we cannot pretend that those opinions are fact, because what really is GG actually is factually unknown. --MASEM (t) 20:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Masem, we have a draft page now. Rather than arguing around hypothetical terms, why don't you develop a draft section of what you think should be included/rewritten and present it for discussion, just as I developed a draft proposal for a new lede which has gained at least the beginnings of a consensus? We're going around in circles here and futilely spilling thousands of talk-page words in large part because we don't actually have a concrete proposal to pick over, and merely claiming that the article is "not impartial" doesn't outline how you propose to improve the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Student newspaper issue
| If I may be bold for a moment; the college itself yanked the piece, so let's let the meta discussion of it's merits...or lack thereof...lie. Tarc (talk) 13:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Twitter report tools
I just removed the sentence Supporters of Gamergate that have been trying to police users that engage in harassment have also found Twitter's tools for reporting abuse to be insufficient. from the draft article as I don't think it's supported by the text of the article. If someone has a source for that let me know, it may be a case where someone cited the wrong source, or I'm just missing something. If we can't find any source for it I'll probably put a protected edit request in to remove it from the main article.
The whole paragraph about twitter could probably be re-written shortly as Twitter just announced new report tools and I would expect we'll see quite a few articles about it referencing Gamergate. — Strongjam (talk) 13:28, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate has already been referenced rather slyly by Twitter itself in the blog announcing this tool: Link. The harassing user being reported in the demo video is represented by a picture of an alligator. This is unlikely to be accidental. ReynTime (talk) 14:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Doesn't seem unlikely at all, and not what is being asked for. HalfHat 14:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's supportive of the interpretation that the true long-term notability of Gamergate will have nothing to do with "ethics in game journalism" but rather with the evolutionary response of social media to the way that the Gamergate movement is utilizing and abusing those tools. The Twitter blog is evidence that this evolution is being driven primarily by Gamergate, as acknowledged by Twitter themselves, which is why I brought it up and linked it. If a few more RSes chime in on this we might want to expand this section of the article and trim some other parts that are much less notable to make room. (I know WP:NOTPAPER but I think this article really is too long to be effective.) ReynTime (talk) 15:28, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ars Tech and NYTimes mention the chance in light of GG, but note that the service has come under a lot of fire in the page due to lack of tools. We can't say for certain the tools were made because of GG, but in the light of GG, the introduction of the tools has been seen extremely timely. --MASEM (t) 15:34, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Doesn't seem unlikely at all, and not what is being asked for. HalfHat 14:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Can you find who added it to ask them? HalfHat 14:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Good idea. Wikiblame to the rescue. Looks like @Masem: added it. — Strongjam (talk) 15:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- What? I was simply suggesting asking them incase they knew the source intended if it was miss-sourced. HalfHat 15:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes. Misplaced Pages:WikiBlame is how I found it was Masem who added it. He's active here so I thought pinging him would be enough. — Strongjam (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, I've never heard of that tool, I thought you were accusing me of something. HalfHat 15:55, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes. Misplaced Pages:WikiBlame is how I found it was Masem who added it. He's active here so I thought pinging him would be enough. — Strongjam (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- What? I was simply suggesting asking them incase they knew the source intended if it was miss-sourced. HalfHat 15:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ec)I think I added that and that's from the original article, and there was a source for that at the time, but looks like it has been lost/replaced/whatever since. This is a source for that statement, but I could have sworn one of Auerbach's pieces also had it too. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Archive of the BW article looks to be unchanged. May have been just a mistaken attribution of Wu as a GG supporter? I'll poke around on Google news to see if any of the Auerbach pieces (or maybe Kain?) mention it. — Strongjam (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I just know when I added it I had a source included for it, I just don't know what happened to it since. --MASEM (t) 15:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- It might have been this WaPo blog article that since been removed. Current version does talk about GG supporters reporting harassment, but not the twitter tools for doing so. May have been updated, I can't check in the wayback machine because of their robots.txt. I think we could cite this article and re-work the sentence a bit and be fine. If anyone can find a better source ping me. — Strongjam (talk) 16:11, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I just know when I added it I had a source included for it, I just don't know what happened to it since. --MASEM (t) 15:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Archive of the BW article looks to be unchanged. May have been just a mistaken attribution of Wu as a GG supporter? I'll poke around on Google news to see if any of the Auerbach pieces (or maybe Kain?) mention it. — Strongjam (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Good idea. Wikiblame to the rescue. Looks like @Masem: added it. — Strongjam (talk) 15:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
A few more references regarding Twitter in the light of GG (the first two focusing specifically on Randi Harper's blocking tool):
kencf0618 (talk) 19:27, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
References
- Lee, Dave (October 30, 2014). "Zoe Quinn: GamerGate must be condemned". BBC. Retrieved October 30, 2014.
- Tsukayama, Hayley (October 24, 2014). "How some Gamergate supporters say the controversy could stop "in one week"". The Washington Post. Retrieved October 25, 2014.
New Guardian article
. More useful probably on Quinn's page, but a couple things I see from this is 1) it notes that there was already resentment by some GG people against selected devs and journalists prior to Gjoni's post, and thus the controversy fed partially on that, and 2) it talks that the use of intimidation tactics has caused many gaming sites to go silent on GG matters, which in turn Quinn feels is harmful since it has made her feel like a solitary entity fighting against GG. There's some other points but it does have a good accurate timeline of the core events too. --MASEM (t) 15:51, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I would like to make a protected edit request to add that to a further reading section along with the History of Gamergate piece I suggested above.
- Keith Stuart, "Zoe Quinn: 'All Gamergate has done is ruin people's lives,;" The Guardian, Dec. 3, 2014.
Thanks, Carrite (talk) 16:12, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's fair to include this on the main page while it is incorporated into the draft, as it is the currently best back-looking summary of GG that I've seen. --MASEM (t) 16:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Could add in andto source some facts/add new ones, I don't think the article needs any more opinion though. HalfHat 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would definitely use it to get updated opinions directly from Quinn (replacing her older ones), which have more time to reflect on events. EG the aspect of the silence of the VG sites towards GG as to help her defend herself is a relatively new thing. --MASEM (t) 17:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Could add in andto source some facts/add new ones, I don't think the article needs any more opinion though. HalfHat 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Oxford University's Anders Sandberg examines Gamergate
Anders Sandberg, a research fellow at Oxford University, has penned a piece examining the implications of Gamergate for cultural discourse, declaring that "rarely have a debate flared up so quickly, involved so many, and generated so much vituperation. If this is the future of broad debates our civilization is doomed." Useful analysis here in terms of how Gamergate's "Chan culture" mob mentality destroyed its credibility before it ever even had a chance to gain it, because that "Chan culture" has radically different cultural norms than mainstream society — which explains why Gamergate supporters are surprised that nobody else supports them and why basically everyone outside Gamergate is horrified at what they're doing. According to Sandberg, it's the result of "Chan culture" meeting the real world. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- While an interesting read, I'm not sure how relevant it is, to me it seems better placed on an article about imageboards or internet culture. HalfHat 21:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- An analysis by an ethics scholar at a very highly regarded educational institution is very relevant to this, as he speaks about how the controversy took the shape and style that it did. This is an excellent analysis and should definitely be included. ReynTime (talk) 23:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- But most of it just talks about interaction on imagesboards, I made a suggestion to include it there, we can't explain every intricacy at every level in one article. HalfHat 08:54, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- it mostly talks about gamergate as a prime example of a non organized "movement" from an overall impact on the world perspective and is the type of contextual analysis that we should be moving towards and will continue to be moving towards as more academic coverage begins to be published instead of simply news coverage. if gamergaters think the article and coverage of them now paints them in a bad light, they are going to be shitting bricks and Volkswagens once the academic presses start spitting out their coverage.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 09:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- But most of it just talks about interaction on imagesboards, I made a suggestion to include it there, we can't explain every intricacy at every level in one article. HalfHat 08:54, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- An analysis by an ethics scholar at a very highly regarded educational institution is very relevant to this, as he speaks about how the controversy took the shape and style that it did. This is an excellent analysis and should definitely be included. ReynTime (talk) 23:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Let's include Greg Lisby, too, while we're at it, a lawyer who focuses on journalistic ethics, who points out that video games writers are largely unethical. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is there a particular written work or interview by him that we could review for potential inclusion? Appears to be a professor at a major university, so I'd say his viewpoint is likely relevant. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:34, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Daily Caller
Calls into question a lot of others' characterisations of Gamergate's supposed victims, and the characterisation of Gamergate itself. Points out that Sarkeesian, Quinn, and Wu have been targeted not because they're women, but because they're dishonest.
#Gamergate’s choice of targets reveals that it is not attacking women, but rather attacking the most opportunistic, ideologically motivated, willfully dishonest actors currently commenting on, or making video games. Intellectual honesty is the movement’s cri de coeur, and it is not going to stop until it purges what Taylor Swift calls “the liars and the dirty, dirty cheats of the world” from possibly the last remaining art form where fraud masked by pretentiousness is insufficient to guarantee a livelihood.
Willhesucceed (talk) 23:26, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- You need a link here to the actual article before it can even be considered. ReynTime (talk) 23:31, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- The Daily Caller is a right-wing house organ, and at best anything from its pages can be viewed as a highly-partisan opinion. Furthermore, your statement presents the claim that those three people are "dishonest" as fact, which is not supported by anything presented here. I request that you either support your statement or redact it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I found the article and it's an opinion piece that says Zoe Quinn deserves to be harassed because she cheated on Eron Gjoni. This does not seem in any way reliable or useful in building the article. ReynTime (talk) 23:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm shocked. Gamergate is about "ethics in video game journalism," for values of "ethics in video game journalism" that equal "let's slut-shame Zoe Quinn." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, in no uncertain terms, it points out that harassment is wrong. Are you sure you should be involved in this article, @Reyntime:, if you're misrepresenting articles so egregiously? Willhesucceed (talk) 21:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Has there been any discussion before on using it as a source? Something having rightwing viewpoints doesn't stop it from being an RS anymore than something having leftwing viewpoints. HalfHat 08:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I found the article and it's an opinion piece that says Zoe Quinn deserves to be harassed because she cheated on Eron Gjoni. This does not seem in any way reliable or useful in building the article. ReynTime (talk) 23:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- The statements of the two users above me are ridiculous. This is an article which wrote Before proceeding further, it should be noted that any death threats or harassment targeted at these three women are unequivocally morally wrong, and that however unethical their behavior may or may not be, nothing justifies making these people fear for their lives or safety. ReynTime can't distinguish between "Zoe Quinn deserves to be harassed because she cheated on Eron Gjoni" and "Zoe Quinn was harassed because she cheated on Eron Gjoni". North clearly hasn't even seen the article, because it's talking about how GamerGate is about That disease is intellectual dishonesty. While the movement’s enemies are technically correct that the movement is not about ethics in journalism, or rather not only about ethics in journalism, the only part that is mistaken is the “in journalism” part. #Gamergate is about intellectual ethics, period. Yeah. starship.paint ~ regal 00:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- You'll have to explain what's "ridiculous" about noting that initiating a vast campaign of Internet harassment because someone had sex with someone else a) is the opposite of ethics and b) has nothing to do with video game journalism, which the movement has strenuously and vehemently claimed to be all about for the past three months. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- The issue is whether #Gamergate has reason to be angry at these women independent of misogyny, not whether their response to that anger is justified or productive. Quoted from the article. starship.paint ~ regal 00:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Eron Gjoni might have reason to get angry at Zoe Quinn. I'm not aware that that justifies or even provides a rational reason for a whole bunch of random people on the Internet to get angry at her, other than the pile-on-mob mentality common in Chan culture. Moreover, is that an admission that the 'ethics in gaming journalism" line is truly a complete lie, and that it is and always has been about an Internet mob slut-shaming Zoe Quinn? That doesn't even begin to touch on Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian, for whom his "case" that they are "dishonest" is, at best, flimsy ginned-up out-of-context bullshit. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:29, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, The issue is ... not whether their response to that anger is justified or productive. Also, what's this about an "admission"? You think the writer is some spokesperson for GamerGate, affirming your strongly-held belief that "the 'ethics in gaming journalism" line is truly a complete lie"? starship.paint ~ regal 00:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, The issue is whether #Gamergate has reason to be angry at these women... a question which he effectively answers in the affirmative. The author is arguing that it is reasonable for thousands of random people on the Internet to be angry at Zoe Quinn - a private person whom they have never interacted with - because of her sexual relationships. Congratulations, you've demonstrated what Gamergate is really about - angry anonymous Internet mobs slut-shaming a woman. QED. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- People can get angry at whatever they want. I was angry with Tiger Woods because of his sexual relationships - likewise a person who I have never interacted with. Before you claim "private person!" Quinn on YouTube: I jammed a frickin huge needle in my hand in order to shoot a microchip into it - and is featured on Kotaku for doing exactly that. starship.paint ~ regal 01:17, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, anyone can get angry at whatever they want. Nobody else has to consider that anger reasonable, purposeful or meaningful. Getting angry at someone you don't know because they allegedly cheated on someone else you don't know is not reasonable, not purposeful and not meaningful. It's petty tabloid soap opera drama bullshit of no societal value, and when it spills over into large-scale real-life harassment of the target, it becomes actively malicious. Which is why Gamergate tried to paper over its malice with the sanctimonious "ethics in gaming journalism" facade that lasted all of about five seconds under any sort of scrutiny. It's interesting to see that scab being ripped off, and someone actually trying to defend Gamergate for what it really is. At least the author's honest. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- People can get angry at whatever they want. I was angry with Tiger Woods because of his sexual relationships - likewise a person who I have never interacted with. Before you claim "private person!" Quinn on YouTube: I jammed a frickin huge needle in my hand in order to shoot a microchip into it - and is featured on Kotaku for doing exactly that. starship.paint ~ regal 01:17, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, The issue is whether #Gamergate has reason to be angry at these women... a question which he effectively answers in the affirmative. The author is arguing that it is reasonable for thousands of random people on the Internet to be angry at Zoe Quinn - a private person whom they have never interacted with - because of her sexual relationships. Congratulations, you've demonstrated what Gamergate is really about - angry anonymous Internet mobs slut-shaming a woman. QED. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, The issue is ... not whether their response to that anger is justified or productive. Also, what's this about an "admission"? You think the writer is some spokesperson for GamerGate, affirming your strongly-held belief that "the 'ethics in gaming journalism" line is truly a complete lie"? starship.paint ~ regal 00:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Eron Gjoni might have reason to get angry at Zoe Quinn. I'm not aware that that justifies or even provides a rational reason for a whole bunch of random people on the Internet to get angry at her, other than the pile-on-mob mentality common in Chan culture. Moreover, is that an admission that the 'ethics in gaming journalism" line is truly a complete lie, and that it is and always has been about an Internet mob slut-shaming Zoe Quinn? That doesn't even begin to touch on Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian, for whom his "case" that they are "dishonest" is, at best, flimsy ginned-up out-of-context bullshit. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:29, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- The issue is whether #Gamergate has reason to be angry at these women independent of misogyny, not whether their response to that anger is justified or productive. Quoted from the article. starship.paint ~ regal 00:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- You'll have to explain what's "ridiculous" about noting that initiating a vast campaign of Internet harassment because someone had sex with someone else a) is the opposite of ethics and b) has nothing to do with video game journalism, which the movement has strenuously and vehemently claimed to be all about for the past three months. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see ReynTime has hopped over to the Enforcement page to report Willhesucceed after clearly baiting Willhesucceed to post the link. Hmm? starship.paint ~ regal 00:13, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- A quote without sourcing can't be included. If Willhesucceed wants the article to be considered he needs to actually link the article so it can be evaluated, not just quote it without attribution. ReynTime (talk) 00:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Given how you reported Avono, my suspicions was that you did not want the article to be "evaluated", rather, you wanted to report him. Obviously, my suspicions were proven true because you did exactly that. This has resulted in a chilling effect, IMO. starship.paint ~ regal 00:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages can't use unsourced quotes. You might want to refresh yourself on the basics of what an encyclopedia is and how it is created. If Willhesucceed's article was not suitable for WP as a whole, cutting out two sentences from the article and presenting them without attribution isn't going to make it any more suitable. ReynTime (talk) 00:47, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I never advocated for using unsourced quotes. Funny how a less than two-weeks old account is already lecturing others on the "basics of what an encyclopedia is". starship.paint ~ regal 01:01, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages can't use unsourced quotes. You might want to refresh yourself on the basics of what an encyclopedia is and how it is created. If Willhesucceed's article was not suitable for WP as a whole, cutting out two sentences from the article and presenting them without attribution isn't going to make it any more suitable. ReynTime (talk) 00:47, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- A quote without sourcing can't be included. If Willhesucceed wants the article to be considered he needs to actually link the article so it can be evaluated, not just quote it without attribution. ReynTime (talk) 00:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Back to the subject at hand, I oppose inclusion of this opinion, as it's a marginal, highly-partisan source of an even lower quality than BuzzFeed, Gawker, etc. which we collectively agreed to exclude from the article quite awhile ago. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Frankly, I think we're doing Gamergate a favor by excluding this, because it literally makes the case for Gamergate's opponents that the movement has nothing to do with ethics in gaming journalism and everything to do with slut-shaming a woman and harassing two other women who came to her defense. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose inclusion. We're supposed to be improving the quality of the sourcing, not adding in fringe crap. Artw (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Apparently no one here knows how to use Google? http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/04/what-gamergates-critics-get-right-and-why-it-doesnt-matter-ethics/2/ Your report is pointless, by the way, person-who-reported-me. The article links to evidence for all its assertions. Willhesucceed (talk) 02:19, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Quick note: The article linked above is an opinion piece and does not pass WP:RS or WP:BLP. It is not suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. It does link to some primary sources, however, and those might possibly be suitable if they make sense in context (being careful to avoid WP:SYNTH. The Wordsmith 04:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Opinion pieces can be reliable sources if they are published in a professional publication with fact-checking and editorial review and if it is written by a professional journalist. Mytheos Holt has significant experience in journalism in reputable publications, while The Daily Caller is run by long-time journalist Tucker Carlson and has a decent-sized editorial staff. I see no issues presented about this other than bias, which is true of a large number of sources currently in the article.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that. I should have phrased it better: The link is an opinion piece and it also does not conform to our policies. Judging by the discussion i've seen on , it is not reliable enough to source controversial facts about living persons. A quick look at their homepage and their dubious history confirms that they play fast and loose with the facts where it can get them pageviews, and we cannot have that here. The Wordsmith 05:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- There's definitely things in the DC article that are BLP issues if we only rested those claims on this article (or more specifically, the lack of a much stronger source making them), but they are not grossly violating ala the student paper from the other day (as TDA points out, with editorial control, they know exactly what they've got in there in, and whatever legal hot water they are willing to get into. And it is a primarily opinion piece which we are trying to cut down on too (both ways). I didn't see anything on first read through to immediately include but if other sources eventually corrobate on it, it might be worth while, but not yet. --MASEM (t) 06:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- All I see are a bunch of discussions where opinion is split by partisan affiliation. Basically every major outlet has made glaring errors or oversights in their reporting and failed to own up to them, if such errors or oversights are even noticed. The situation is actually the same with Breitbart in that most of the issues are common issues with news outlets. I do tire of this game where editors who disagree with a piece try to dismiss the source as unreliable without any serious evidence.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 07:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly agree with the above and second the call for serious evidence against Breitbart before its exclusion can be contemplated.Bramble window (talk) 16:07, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- The issue with Breitbart is that as a whole, any piece by that website is considered problematic due to them playing a cry-wolf game too many times; there are probably legit pieces among the rest but it's far too difficult to make the distinction. On the other hand, with this Daily Caller source, it's not that DC is unreliable, simply that this piece here is more opinion (as well as a bit into rumor mongering) that given the sensitivity of the rest of the information, it should be avoided. (But I do note this has to swing both ways, weak sources stating primarily opinions/rumors against GG should also be avoided). --MASEM (t) 14:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- There are distinctly higher barriers for content about actual living people and assessment of internet culture. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Kindly link to policy documents that specify higher barriers for "assessment of internet culture".Bramble window (talk) 16:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- sorry, that was unclear: There are distinctly higher barriers for content about actual living people than for assessment of internet culture.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:40, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Looking at the discussion the consensus seems to be use it for uncontroversial facts, but preferably use less biased sources, and it can be used for opinions. Unless other pieces start to share opinions here I'd not include it. HalfHat 09:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not so fast there! Count me as steadfast against what you call the consensus. I strongly support the insertion of references and links to that article in the interest of correcting the extreme anti-GG bias of the WP article.Bramble window (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Your position is noted, but doesnt actually hold any water. We follow the majority of reliable sources and the DC fails both points. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence against DC to show they lack editorial oversight on journalistic contributions? All news stories posted to date on GG show a major partisan bias, and it would be surprising to see DC be an exception. Please do not claim a consensus that DC is unreliable. I do not condemn before I see good evidence.Bramble window (talk) 18:03, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- as linked above -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have seen people starting to use this strategy where they fail to link to a decisive conclusion regarding a source being reliable or not and simply link to the search results for RSN. Usually, when I see this tactic employed, the discussions show inconclusive results where opinion was divided and that appears to be the case here as well. Can you point to any discussion with a clear and persuasive consensus that The Daily Caller should be regarded as unreliable?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:51, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- If the results are so divided, as they are in this case, coupled with even the briefest of glances at The Daily Caller, its easy to see that they absolutely should not be used to source information about living people. WP:BLP explicitly states "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources." Daily Caller clearly doesn't meet the high quality standards that BLP requires.
- Who posted the above? Also, what about the fact that a source might make reference to non-identifiable living people. For instance, a report on an election might state "the candidate received 400 votes". Now those voters are living people, but the statement doesn't put WP in legal jeopardy because they cannot sue WP. That's why there's special rules for living people: dead people can't sue. But do you know who else cannot sue? People who are not named or otherwise clearly identified in an article. It follows that there's no need to be nitpicky about BLP when the source document preserves the anonymity of the living person involved. And what if we quote the source document without mentioning any details that could be used to identify the individual? WP is, AFAIK, completely safe legally as long as the person's identity is not revealed by WP. Bramble window (talk) 15:08, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- If the results are so divided, as they are in this case, coupled with even the briefest of glances at The Daily Caller, its easy to see that they absolutely should not be used to source information about living people. WP:BLP explicitly states "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources." Daily Caller clearly doesn't meet the high quality standards that BLP requires.
- I have seen people starting to use this strategy where they fail to link to a decisive conclusion regarding a source being reliable or not and simply link to the search results for RSN. Usually, when I see this tactic employed, the discussions show inconclusive results where opinion was divided and that appears to be the case here as well. Can you point to any discussion with a clear and persuasive consensus that The Daily Caller should be regarded as unreliable?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:51, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- as linked above -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence against DC to show they lack editorial oversight on journalistic contributions? All news stories posted to date on GG show a major partisan bias, and it would be surprising to see DC be an exception. Please do not claim a consensus that DC is unreliable. I do not condemn before I see good evidence.Bramble window (talk) 18:03, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Your position is noted, but doesnt actually hold any water. We follow the majority of reliable sources and the DC fails both points. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not so fast there! Count me as steadfast against what you call the consensus. I strongly support the insertion of references and links to that article in the interest of correcting the extreme anti-GG bias of the WP article.Bramble window (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- We can use it as a source for other claims. I mean if we are going to cite Liana Kerzner's work at MetalEater, I think it is acceptable to include a piece by Mytheos Holt from The Daily Caller. The latter is undeniably a much stronger source than the former, probably a stronger source than various other sources currently in use on this article.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- If I remember correctly, last month the Republican party dominated the US elections and now constitutes the majority/dominant party in both houses of the US congress and in most state houses. Therefore, a news site which claims to be speaking on their behalf is actually representing the majority opinion of current US political thought. We would definitely want to have such an opinion included in this article. Cla68 (talk) 06:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- We can use it as a source for other claims. I mean if we are going to cite Liana Kerzner's work at MetalEater, I think it is acceptable to include a piece by Mytheos Holt from The Daily Caller. The latter is undeniably a much stronger source than the former, probably a stronger source than various other sources currently in use on this article.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Gamergate Organizing Boycott Against Wrong Store
New source, guaranteed misogyny free: Gamergate is urging a boycott against the wrong store. Remember, it's about ethics. ReynTime (talk) 00:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
| WP:Forum HalfHat 09:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC) |
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- I don't think that's even close to a reliable source. And cut out the forum stuff. HalfHat 09:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- What are your reasons for not considering it reliable? It's only reporting what clearly happened -- you can see the Gamergaters targeting the wrong store yourself by looking at Twitter if you need confirmation that this is a factual occurence. ReynTime (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- For context, previous discussions on WP:RSN are here and here. I think it's a pretty borderline source, but even if it was unimpeachable, I wouldn't use this article because this is a minor event in the controversy. — Strongjam (talk) 13:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's not very important. I thought it was relevant in terms of showing the problems with running a "movement" primarily via Twitter mobs without any central oversight. ReynTime (talk) 13:49, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- For context, previous discussions on WP:RSN are here and here. I think it's a pretty borderline source, but even if it was unimpeachable, I wouldn't use this article because this is a minor event in the controversy. — Strongjam (talk) 13:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- What are your reasons for not considering it reliable? It's only reporting what clearly happened -- you can see the Gamergaters targeting the wrong store yourself by looking at Twitter if you need confirmation that this is a factual occurence. ReynTime (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Power OVERWHELMING
So this intro here...
- the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture.
I don't see a source used for this statement. I would like to see actual evidence of "majority" being proven to have this stance. Who exactly has weighed the sum of commentators and then divided it into portions of those who think this and those who do not?
Is this based on a single source claiming that the majority of commentators say this?
What qualifies a person to be a commentator to be counted on this issue?
Beyond whether or not it is majority (a single 50.5% would give that) I would like to know when it is that we consider a majority to be 'overwhelming'.
Who has gone beyond diagnosis of a 'majority' claim and called such a hypothetical majority overwhelming?
For those who did, should it matter to Misplaced Pages that they feel overwhelmed? Isn't the rate at which people are whelmed by different percentages actually variable?
I think we should strike 'overwhelming' from the intro since it is too subjective a label. We should convey as accurate a number as possible (if 'majority' is the closest we can get, fine) and then let readers decide how big a number has to be to feel overwhelming. If some reporters have said 'overwhelming' then we can say 'which reporters have called overwhelming' or something along those lines. That is clearly just feels-opinioning and not relevant encyclopedic data-facts.
If we can get past the overwhelming nonsense then I would like to request a source for this 'majority of commentators' claim. Who has the authority to count such a tally? What if 1 source said the majority of commentators were for GamerGate? How would we decide who is correct? --Ranze (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- You have given a minion +4/+4 and that minion will die at the end of the turn. Horribly.
- Hearthstone jokes aside, "the overwhelming majority" is based upon even a cursory examination of the reliable sources which have commented on the matter. We base our articles on what reliable sources say, and we weight viewpoints based upon the weight given to those viewpoints in mainstream reliable sources. It is trivial to demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of mainstream reliable sources commenting on the matter view Gamergate as such.
- That said, the new version of the lede which I have proposed above removes the word "overwhelming" as an unnecessary adverb. The "majority" is incontrovertibly factual. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- The problem there then is the statement is misleading, since it's based on reliable sources, and not all commentators. HalfHat 10:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- And on the reliable sources chosen for this article, not necessarily overall. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. The use of the word commentators in no way specifies people who belong to the tiny group whom[REDACTED] classify as "reliable sources" (academics and journalists for the most part). On reddit alone there are enough pro-GG individuals to easily outnumber the few dozen journalists worldwide pushing the anti-GG line that their editorial staff have decided to take. If we count twitter, then pro-GG would outweigh the "reliable sources" by at least one, maybe two orders of magnitude.Bramble window (talk) 16:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE as an encyclopedia, we dont care what the rabble thinks, unless the reliable sources comment upon it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- By that logic, the word "commentators" needs to be replaced with "commentators outside the rabble". The word commentators as it is presently used by English speakers is non-exclusive of the rabble. If you mean to be rabble-exclusive, you cannot use "commentators" without a qualification to specify that you only mean a specific elite group.Bramble window (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:49, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- That response is both rude and uninformative. The link you gave does not speak to a defence of using "commentators" with the meaning of "non-rabble commentators" that you propose. In future, please try to be civil and specify your reasoning using language rather than posting one-word links to pages whose relevance is far from apparent.Bramble window (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- The link i gave says that we dont even molly coddle it as "commentators" - we simply ASSERT what the reliable sources say. And it says nothing about the non reliable sources, because they dont play into creating an encyclopedia AT ALL. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:02, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- So we agree that "commentators" needs to go?Bramble window (talk) 18:05, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- as of the last time i looked at the draft, its gone. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is this being written somewhere else? I still see it on the locked page here, it's ridiculous. "Reliable sources" would be far more accurate than "commentators". We should not mislead the public with fictions like this. Ranze (talk) 08:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I am not sure why you think an encyclopedia would need to call out that it wasnt being created from non reliable source materials? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is this being written somewhere else? I still see it on the locked page here, it's ridiculous. "Reliable sources" would be far more accurate than "commentators". We should not mislead the public with fictions like this. Ranze (talk) 08:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- as of the last time i looked at the draft, its gone. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- So we agree that "commentators" needs to go?Bramble window (talk) 18:05, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- The link i gave says that we dont even molly coddle it as "commentators" - we simply ASSERT what the reliable sources say. And it says nothing about the non reliable sources, because they dont play into creating an encyclopedia AT ALL. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:02, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- That response is both rude and uninformative. The link you gave does not speak to a defence of using "commentators" with the meaning of "non-rabble commentators" that you propose. In future, please try to be civil and specify your reasoning using language rather than posting one-word links to pages whose relevance is far from apparent.Bramble window (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:49, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- By that logic, the word "commentators" needs to be replaced with "commentators outside the rabble". The word commentators as it is presently used by English speakers is non-exclusive of the rabble. If you mean to be rabble-exclusive, you cannot use "commentators" without a qualification to specify that you only mean a specific elite group.Bramble window (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE as an encyclopedia, we dont care what the rabble thinks, unless the reliable sources comment upon it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. The use of the word commentators in no way specifies people who belong to the tiny group whom[REDACTED] classify as "reliable sources" (academics and journalists for the most part). On reddit alone there are enough pro-GG individuals to easily outnumber the few dozen journalists worldwide pushing the anti-GG line that their editorial staff have decided to take. If we count twitter, then pro-GG would outweigh the "reliable sources" by at least one, maybe two orders of magnitude.Bramble window (talk) 16:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- And on the reliable sources chosen for this article, not necessarily overall. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- The problem there then is the statement is misleading, since it's based on reliable sources, and not all commentators. HalfHat 10:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Does WP:NOR not apply here? Feathergun (talk) 18:24, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- Do you mean that it's "original research" to make an assessment of what mainstream reliable sources say and make that editorial judgment? Because no, that's not original research. It's what we do on Misplaced Pages — write articles based on the predominant weight of mainstream reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- If there is a RS saying, "The overwhelming majority of media commentators have said that GamerGate is misognyistic" then that's in compliance with our policies. If it is us who are asserting this in WP's voice, then it violates WP:NOR. Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed, if the term 'overwhelming' is used by a reliable source then I want that RS cited directly after the word overwhelming, please. Otherwise, it should be removed. Ranze (talk) 08:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- If there is a RS saying, "The overwhelming majority of media commentators have said that GamerGate is misognyistic" then that's in compliance with our policies. If it is us who are asserting this in WP's voice, then it violates WP:NOR. Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Do you mean that it's "original research" to make an assessment of what mainstream reliable sources say and make that editorial judgment? Because no, that's not original research. It's what we do on Misplaced Pages — write articles based on the predominant weight of mainstream reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Data analysis
| Discussion not based on reliable sources nor focused on improvements to the Misplaced Pages article |
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http://chrisvoncsefalvay.com/2014/12/07/Gamergate.html "those accusing #Gamergate of systemic, large-scale harassment must find a way to explain the absence of mathematical evidence for it" "if #Gamergate were a hate group, I would expect results to be different" Beep boop. Willhesucceed (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
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Thanks for the threats, Tarc. Is everyone really saying the guy who's involved in "big data engineering" https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisvoncsefalvay (linked in the source, this is not "doxing") wouldn't have a clue what he's talking about when it comes to analysing data? He went to Oxford University. Willhesucceed (talk) 22:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
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