Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:44, 14 August 2006

Here is the essence of the editing guidelines:

Editing

1. Sign all posts to the talk page.

2. Avoid characterizing the politics, motives, POV, or objectivity of material added to the article. Simple explain what you disagree with and why you disagree based on accuracy or that it disagrees with your point of view and then explain briefly what yours is.

3. Avoid extrapolation of the above, e.g., "X supports Y, so if X says ___, it must be…"

4. Work from the assumption for the five-day period that no one has a monopoly on the truth, even if one is certain that facts or evidence is 100 percent clear.

Talk pages

1. Refrain from personal attacks.

2. Refrain from characterizing the politics, motives, POV, or objectivity of other contributors.

Netaji

I think major changes should wait till sat/sun when Netaji comes back. Otherwise the signors before me all despise Modi, Hindus, Hindutva, and Gujarat to varying degrees. Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

BCorr requested that editors refrain from characterizing the objectivity of other editors. BhaiSaab 05:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

POV issues

Changing * "This was not purely a Hindu - Muslim riot.It was a very well planned carnage of a whole community" to * This was not purely a Hindu - Muslim riot surely changes the meaning completely.Why was this revision done? TerryJ-Ho 09:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Because you make it seen like Modi was like Hitler.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"Planned carnage" is a biased statement. Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Not if referred by independent sources TerryJ-Ho 00:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• Please give me a list of the sources that you will agree with and I will cite them.TerryJ-Ho 00:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  Modi has been compared to Nero by Indian Supreme Court - if not Hitler - by Human Rights organisations - both within India and outside.TerryJ-Ho 00:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  Please do not call online volunteers an independent organization. They have a "hit-list" of all BJP actions calling it some conspiracy. Its as if the BJP blew up women and children as an excuse to kill a couple hundred Muslims. Hindu people have better ways/reasons (Aurangzeb, Pakistan, Terrorists) to get revenge on their enemies than bomb a train themselves like some nutcases have stated. Many anti-Hindu organizations also created "sockpuppets" to fake a consensus on Modi's behavior.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  What if that is true?TerryJ-Ho 00:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  Your second point challenges good faith.You have also not elaborated the sockpuppetry charge

TerryJ-Ho 00:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC) I don't think it challenges good faith. I am not accusing YOU of anything, I merely stated that a whole bunch of orgs were created for Modi-bashing as it has become fashionable for anti-Hindus to call Modi names, and pretend the BJP would perform a genocide to get votes. Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Respect every users good faith, not only me.Most if not all of these organisations are long established.check -HRW,Amnesty,PUCL

Again - Could you name some sources that you would not challenge?TerryJ-Ho 01:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Need to follow Wiki Guidelines

Bakaman made this edit in which he said that there should be no original research. I completely agree. We should adhere closely to WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:REF while writing this draft. BhaiSaab 00:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Language could be corrected in that edit, however, I feel that covered only a fraction of what the media has reported..Secondly the nature of riots should tell the nature and what else..Read that section now..better remove it if we dont want to discuss.I have spent three hours reading and noting items.Find it difficult to see it removed completely..correct it ..refine it..but dont delete it

TerryJ-Ho 00:44, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Online volunteers+BJP conspiracy

Thanks. Also onlinevolunteers.org does nothing on its website but call everything a BJP conspiracy.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

What if that is?TerryJ-Ho 00:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Plese do not push POV on wikipedia. The statements that "its a conspiracy" are put forth by such independent orgs as al-qaeda, Simi, Christian missionaires, and the CPIM. Not mainstream news or common sense.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but there is no scope for these names on this article.Onlinevolunteers is not owned by these groups.Please refrain from diverting attention.TerryJ-Ho 00:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Its anti-BJP. It has an agenda other than OBJECTIVE NEWS-GIVING.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

There are reliable sources stating that the government was involved in this. See . BhaiSaab 01:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The BJP is a Hindu Nationalist party. What TerryJHo is doing is finding unreliable partisan sources, and then writing dubious stories of policemen raping women and stuff. I can make such allegations too maybe that aliens blew the train up to divide the human race, does that make them true? No. Allegations must be stated as allegations. The gov't is alleged to be complicit, nothing has (or will) be proven showing the BJP started or finished the riots. Moral support is not really involvement, otherwise Pakistan and al-Qaeda also were involved in these riots. Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

NC TerryJ-Ho 01:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

NC? Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

What TerryJHo is doing is finding unreliable partisan sources?TerryJ-Ho 02:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Instead of asking questions and finding POV orgs, first explain what NC means.Bakaman _Bakatalk 14:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Qualify all sources

Reported bias in all sources must be qualified. Human Rights Watch is a questionable org that has been accused of anti-semitism and Islamist bias. Ney York Times is a liberal newspaper and has been accused of liberal bias. Arundhati Roy has been accused of anti-Americanism, anti-Hinduism and marxist Bias. koenraad Elst has been accused of pro-Hindutva bias, Balbir Punj is a BJP member and so has a partisan bias. All these sources, when quoted, must be qualified accordingly.Netaji 20:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Not at all - the New York Times is a very reliable source and there is no need to qualify sources as long as they are reliable. Unless you can show that a specific report was biased or not trustworthy by using another reliable source, qualifying the source may be original research on your part. BhaiSaab 21:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Nein mein freund. Read the[REDACTED] article on NYT itself. Many sources have accused the grey lady of systematic liberal bias in all it's articles (every single one). That includes Gujarat riot articles, which are liberal, anti-India and anti-Hindu. It is highly necessary to say "Liberal Newspaper New York Times" as well as "Controvertial organization Human Rights Watch", just like saying "Hindutva Supporter Koenraad Elst" or "Hindu Scholar Sita Ram Goel" or whatever.Netaji 23:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is "the grey lady" and can you provide sources that have made these accusations? BhaiSaab 00:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please look at New York Times. Grey lady is used there and NYT is regarded in the US as a "ultra-liberal" newspaper. Conservatives do not even read it, they read LA Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just taken a look at the article. Although I see accusations of a liberal bias, exactly what impact does that have to coverage of 2002 Gujarat violence? How do you know that a newspaper with liberal bias would tend to favor one side over the other in this article? Also, Bcorr has requested that we "avoid characterizing the politics, motives, POV, or objectivity of material added to the article." BhaiSaab 00:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not fair. What if somebody went to articles on Jewish texts and started to quote anti-semitic websites that defame Jewish beliefs by quoting texts out of context? It is not fair to not qualify them, right? It needs to be qualified that neo-nazi/radical Islamist websites are anti-semitic. Likewise, if HRW has been accused of Islamist anti-semitism (they have), it needs to be mentioned that they have a systematic Islamist bias. Same with NYT, which has a systematic liberal bias, and needs appropriate qualification.

If you insist that sources are not to be qualified, then I am within the bounds of legitimacy to post links from fsiusa.org and hinduunity.org presenting their reports on the Gujarat riots without qualifying their bias, right? Fine, I'll do that also then.Netaji 00:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That would breach guidelines. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Partisan.2C_religious_and_extremist_websites. I suggest you take this up with Bcorr. BhaiSaab 00:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That only applies to "widely recognized extremist and terrorist groups" (read the literature). Last time I checked, neither fsiusa nor Elst were declared terrorists by any government org. Neither is HinduUnity or fsiusa recognized as terrorists. I agree that they are partisan, but so is hrw and NYT. HRW is "widely recognized" by Anti-Defamation League, Honest Reporting, NGO Monitor, the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC), Abraham Cooper, Anne Bayefsky, Gerald Steinberg, Isi Leibler, Shimon Peres, Ariel Sharon, Uitzhak Rabin and Ana Palacio as anti-semitic and having an Islamist bias and therefore partisan also.Netaji 01:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not only apply to "extremist and terrorist groups." Hindu Unity takes an obvious religious stance; it is not a reliable source. BhaiSaab 01:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Fsiusa does not. Doesn't have a manifesto of religiosity like al-Qaeda or LeT or whoever. It has been alleged of partisanship just like NYT. If fsiusa has to be quoted with qualification so must NYT. Btw just fyi, NYT has also published some anti-Islamic articles "bashing" the Taliban.Netaji 01:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know what fsiusa is. My other comments were just about the Hindu Unity website. I don't care if NYT has published articles bashing the Taliban; that does not indicate that they are "anti-Islamic." BhaiSaab 01:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

fsiusa is a source.Well, CAIR people said that the Taliban were a "model Islamic state" and "anointed by Allah to spread his glorious word throughout Afghanistan" (got it from a quote on CNN from a CAIR lawyer), so criticizing them is anti-Islamic, right? NYT is a radical secular liberal fundamentalist rag, "widely regarded" as such even by many muslim orgs like CAIR and should be qualified as such. Plus, NYT wrote very positive articles about Abdul Rahman (you know, the bloke who converted to Christianity from Islam). This is ultimate haraam in Islam and all apostates are to be killed immediately according to your beliefs. Thus, NYT has published an article that attacks Islamic beliefs and so is anti-Islamic. See? Why are you quoting an anti-Islamic source? That is just plain wrong and offensive to muslim sensibilites. Boo-hoo! Boo-hoo!Sniff!Netaji 01:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with all the statements of CAIR, and I would appreciate it if you stopped assuming to know all of my personal beliefs. I will continue to use NYT articles here, considering WP:RS states "Publications with teams of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers, and managers — like the New York Times or The Times of London — are likely to be reliable, and are regarded as reputable sources for the purposes of Misplaced Pages." BhaiSaab 02:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well the organizer also has a team of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers and managers, as does fsiusa and so are likely to be reliable by the same criterion. Bear in mind that if your goal is to manufacture an anti-Hindu article with exclusive citations from anti-India orgs like hrw and NYT then readers who are aware of this liberalism will not regard the article with any degree of legitimacy.Netaji 02:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

A while ago you said NYT is anti-Islamic, and now you're saying its anti-Hindu. Which one is it? If it's both, then it's probably neutral regarding these incidents. "Readers who are aware of this liberalism" have no bearing on the use of NYT in this article, since, by guidelines, NYT is perfectably acceptable to use. Also please "refrain from characterizing the politics, motives, POV, or objectivity of other contributors." BhaiSaab 02:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

NYT is liberal ie anti-faith ie anti-all-faiths ie anti-Hindu, anti-Islamic , anti-Jewish, anti-Christian anti-Buddhist etc.Netaji 03:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well then it should be perfectly neutral when it comes to this article. BhaiSaab 03:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Liberal means pro-"oppressed". Since the Muslims are "oppressed" in India, the NY Times is duty bound to support them. Also, they hate conservatives like Bush and Shri Narendra Modi.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times is not bound to support anyone. BhaiSaab 04:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure they are. The Grey lady was formed by a liberal claque. They are paid to be liberal.Netaji 04:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Columnists can have whatever views they want. Celia Dugger is on Hinduunity's hit list, so she is a documented anti-Hindu. She has also been reported on Hindumediawatch.com for her anti-Hindu views. Since you said you have access to NYT files, find a competent columnist (Friedman and the like is good).Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hindu Unity's listing of her is hardly a reason to not use her articles. Checking the archives, she was the main commentator on this violence for the New York Times. BhaiSaab 04:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Hindu Sources

The last edit by BhaiSaab was from an anti-Hindu and biased source. It was too long and without appropriate qualification.Netaji 06:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have reinstated part of his edit aftr some paraphrasing.Netaji 06:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Media Coverage of the Riots

I will shortly add a section titles "Media Coverage of the Riots" where I will detail both sides of the issue ie leftist, racist and anti-Hindu bias vs claims of factual reporting and any counter-arguments provided.Netaji 06:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Checking in on how things are going...

As I have said to a few individuals, I appreciate that you are all working on the revision and I'm glad my suggestions seem to be helpful.

I want to make a suggestion that may (or may not) help to defuse some of the tension about this topic:

Perhaps there should be a separate article something like Differing views of bias regarding the 2002 Gujarat violence? I know that's a bad title, but perhaps you get the idea...

Does this make any sense?

Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 11:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Undecided, though I am not opposed to the idea - All established media sources except the Hindu right wing and their known supporters are in agreement on the gravity of these incidents - most call them massacre,pogroms or genocide. What if tomorrow supporters of Taleban differed on articles related to them.Will we create another article "Differing views of bias on War in Afghanistan".TerryJ-Ho 12:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)