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| == Image size discussion at ] == | == Image size discussion at ] == | ||
| Opinions are needed on the following matter: ]. A ] for it is . The discussion concerns whether or not we should keep the following wording: "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger fixed size than the 220px default (users can adjust this in their ]). If an exception to the general rule is warranted, forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding." The latest aspect of the discussion is the ''']. ] (]) 07:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC) | Opinions are needed on the following matter: ]. A ] for it is . The discussion concerns whether or not we should keep the following wording: "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger fixed size than the 220px default (users can adjust this in their ]). If an exception to the general rule is warranted, forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding." The latest aspect of the discussion is the '''].''' ] (]) 07:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC) | ||
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Plot and secondary sources
The plot summary for a work, on a page about that work, does not need to be sourced with in-line citations, as it is generally assumed that the work itself is the primary source for the plot summary. However, editors are encouraged to add sourcing if possible. If a plot summary includes a direct quote from the work, this must be cited using inline citations per WP:QUOTE. Sometimes a work will be summarized by secondary sources, which can be used for sourcing. Otherwise, using brief quotation citations from the primary work can be helpful to source key or complex plot points.
(Emphasis mine.) Do we really not prefer secondary sources for the plot when they feasibly exist? It's just all the same that it's sourced or unsourced? – czar 22:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction is a ghost town, so I'm bringing this here. Does anyone have more information on our general/historic practice of leaving plot sections unfootnoted (with the assumption that it is sourced to the work itself)? I understand that the footnote is omitted because it's sourced to the work itself (which has its own issues), but I don't understand how this is reconciled with due weight, in which we cover an aspect of a topic in proportion to its degree of secondary source coverage. Why do Plot sections get carte blanche for paragraphs of unsourced detail in situations where not a single secondary (or, hell, primary) source found the plot aspects worth covering? My watchlist is littered with IP editors deciding of their own accord what plot details are important rather than, as we do with everything else everything on the encyclopedia, looking to secondary source guidance on the work's important plot points. I don't see why plot is exempted from our standard practice. At the very least, are we not in agreement that we prefer to source plot sections to reliable, secondary sources over primary sources like the work itself? czar 04:03, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- Czar, my only contributions to fiction pages have been rock operas (not sure, possibly only one rock opera, and I did not source the plot summary), so I'm not pretending I know. I'm just responding on principle to the valid point you raise. I think there are at least two reasons secondary sourcing can be important in a plot summary. The first is the issue you raised about what plot points should be included. Without external guidance, it's just opinion vs. opinion, unless an actual consensus can be formed. We cannot consider ourselves authoritative on this issue, so no individual should be the gatekeeper for plot summary content. That would beWP:OWN anyway. It sounds like a little WP:BRD is the only option without secondary sources or existing consensus, unless there is actual guidance on the matter that I missed when I wrote my one plot summary.
- The second reason secondary sourcing can be important is when things are implied or in some way not made explicit. We cannot interpret things without violating WP:OR, so interpretations have to be sourced. Some writers use ambiguity intentionally to give readers their own experiences, or to prolong interest in the work once the reader has finished reading it. Character motivations are often obvious, but if the author does not connect the dots explicitly, that also has to be sourced. (I recall reading this in some guideline... I think. It was a while back.) Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth. Spend it wisely :P Dcs002 (talk) 05:34, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've done TV shows and episodes, so I think I can comment here. It's easy to find secondary sources if the sources actually cover plot points. If they don't, what should be used in lieu to it? You can't just omit the plot summary because it would be unsourced. The TV's MOS group had developed a set of guidelines which allows the episode to be used as a primary source without it developing into a free-for-all. SciGal (talk) 14:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dcs and SciGal are both right. I've worked on some episodes for books and TV shows, and both those issues are real.
- The plot description is considered "straightforward observations of facts," which are allowed under WP:PRIMARY and, let's face it, WP:COMMONSENSE. Including basic summaries of works of fiction in articles about those works is just something that encyclopedias are expected to do, and, like SciGal says, most of the reliable sources include reactions to the plot, not summaries of it. In most cases, some plot summary is necessary to the article. How is the reader supposed to understand the social impact of Frankenstein if we don't tell them that it's about a doctor who makes a monster and that the monster was actually well-behaved for most of the book? Now, I could say, in one sentence, "The monster was naturally good and only turned to violence after years of rejection, which only happened because its creator had abandoned his responsibilities," and that's concise, but am I right? Even if I am (and I am), it's still original research. It is far better to simply relate the events of the book: where the monster went, what attempts he made to make friends, how people reacted to him, and let the reader come to his or her own conclusions.
- For the plot section, the big editorial decision is how much detail is warranted and which facts and events are important enough to earn the space (fans of a book or show tend to want to include a lot of information). This is where secondary sources come in. If multiple articles or reviews mention the scene in which the monster reads the Bible, then you can use that as evidence that the scene is important enough to mention in the plot summary, that it is not an excess or inconsequential detail. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:57, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've done TV shows and episodes, so I think I can comment here. It's easy to find secondary sources if the sources actually cover plot points. If they don't, what should be used in lieu to it? You can't just omit the plot summary because it would be unsourced. The TV's MOS group had developed a set of guidelines which allows the episode to be used as a primary source without it developing into a free-for-all. SciGal (talk) 14:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- To come at it from a different angle, it is recognized that encyclopedic coverage of a work of fiction is not comprehensive without a concise plot summary. However, rarely do published works outside of classics and popular contemporary works do detailed analysis of a plot come from secondary sources. Since the work itself is primary, but verifyable, a concise plot summary with implicit sourcing to the work itself is reasonably acceptable. As long as the plot does not engage in OR, the plot can be verified by anyone that otherwise can access the work. But if OR is needed, or additional information that is not clearly obvious to the causal viewer (eg we're not going frame-by-frame to capture one tiny plot detail) then that does need sourcing even if to, say, a director's commentary or an extra featurette that is not part of the primary work. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
- Precisely. I'll explicitly cite plots of works to secondary sources when the work may be lost etc. But if I have the work in question, and I have read it, I do not explicitly state that the reference is the work itself, as that is already implied. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
it is recognized that encyclopedic coverage of a work of fiction is not comprehensive without a concise plot summary
My question is mainly about proportionality. I think MOS:PLOT should reflect the weight premise of the encyclopedia that a plot is covered in proportion to its importance as determined by secondary sources. This is to say that the Film WikiProject's guideline of 400 to 700 words makes sense for their plot-heavy feature films, and perhaps even for a book or game that has sources that reaffirm the plot's central importance to the work (ideally with a litany of think pieces discussing elements of the plot, for modern media at least). But for other novels, academic books, games, and art films, for example, the plot—or whatever exists of one—may have no central importance to a work, and which directly opposes the quoted statement's declaration of plot importance to all fictional works. Not all fictional works need plot summaries: the plot summary should be proportional to the plot's degree of coverage in reliable, secondary sources (and if that's not enough, then also proportional to the standard for the medium, e.g., that early fighting games rarely have plots). czar 05:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction is not a ghost town; well, not completely one. I saw you there, but editors have been over the sourcing aspect of plot sections a lot, which is why MOS:PLOT addresses it. Also see Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/Archive 63#How wide is the "original research" exception for articles on fictional works?, which shows a recent discussion concerning this topic. The television show, film, play or book is the source; therefore, we usually do not need to add inline citations to plot sections. If someone engages in WP:OR, it is usually fixed by someone who has seen or read the material. The WP:OR policy is not simply about material being unsourced. The reference currently in its introduction states, "By 'exists', the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article. Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy—so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source." As for WP:Due weight, that can apply in some plot cases, but I don't think we should state that we shouldn't add plot material because sources aren't interested in covering the plot detail in an in-depth way. Sources are usually more so focused on the WP:Real world content in relation to the fictional content. And WP:TVPLOT and WP:Film plot are guidelines that exist partly to keep plot summary lengths under control. I think "art film" can fall under WP:Film plot. I'm not sure about the "other novels, academic books, games" aspects you are worried about; you can see how WP:BOOKS, WP:Games and WP:Video games do things, but I would think that academic books and games that are not video games do not need a plot section. Our video game articles (and their characters) do have plot sections, though. See, for example, Metal Gear Solid and Cloud Strife; those are sourced. Video game plot summaries are commonly sourced with inline citations, often to the video game itself. Popcornduff recently tagged the Metal Gear Solid Plot section as too long, but that is a long game and I don't see what can be safely cut from that section. Then again, it's been a long time since I played that game. Soap opera plot summaries can also be a different story, for reasons I noted in the "How wide is the 'original research' exception for articles on fictional works?" discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- Readability is more important than plot comprehensiveness, IMO. If making sections a reasonable length (ie shorter) means cutting even significant details, so be it. Besides, in my experience, plot summaries are often overlong thanks to bad writing as much as too much detail. Take the opening sentence of the MGS example, for example: "The story is set in 2005..." can simply become "In 2005...". That's over half the words from that sample cut right there. (I'd trim the summary myself but I haven't played it in years either.) Popcornduff (talk) 16:50, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction is not a ghost town; well, not completely one. I saw you there, but editors have been over the sourcing aspect of plot sections a lot, which is why MOS:PLOT addresses it. Also see Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/Archive 63#How wide is the "original research" exception for articles on fictional works?, which shows a recent discussion concerning this topic. The television show, film, play or book is the source; therefore, we usually do not need to add inline citations to plot sections. If someone engages in WP:OR, it is usually fixed by someone who has seen or read the material. The WP:OR policy is not simply about material being unsourced. The reference currently in its introduction states, "By 'exists', the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article. Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy—so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source." As for WP:Due weight, that can apply in some plot cases, but I don't think we should state that we shouldn't add plot material because sources aren't interested in covering the plot detail in an in-depth way. Sources are usually more so focused on the WP:Real world content in relation to the fictional content. And WP:TVPLOT and WP:Film plot are guidelines that exist partly to keep plot summary lengths under control. I think "art film" can fall under WP:Film plot. I'm not sure about the "other novels, academic books, games" aspects you are worried about; you can see how WP:BOOKS, WP:Games and WP:Video games do things, but I would think that academic books and games that are not video games do not need a plot section. Our video game articles (and their characters) do have plot sections, though. See, for example, Metal Gear Solid and Cloud Strife; those are sourced. Video game plot summaries are commonly sourced with inline citations, often to the video game itself. Popcornduff recently tagged the Metal Gear Solid Plot section as too long, but that is a long game and I don't see what can be safely cut from that section. Then again, it's been a long time since I played that game. Soap opera plot summaries can also be a different story, for reasons I noted in the "How wide is the 'original research' exception for articles on fictional works?" discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- Popcornduff, that's where we disagree. I'm all for readability, but usually not at the expense of important detail. Leaving out important detail is not reasonable to me unless there is simply too much plot to cover all the big points. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, I think you're right. If a detail is significant, then by definition it needs to be covered. On further reflection, I think I painted a false dichotomy in the first place: it's rare, really, to have a story of such length and complexity that it can't be summarised in a reasonable length. So I put my money where my mouth is and significantly trimmed the MGS summary, and yeah, I think the problem was dodgy writing, not the story's length or complexity. There are still some issues with it, but they'd be better discussed on the article's talk page than here. Popcornduff (talk) 13:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Popcornduff, that's where we disagree. I'm all for readability, but usually not at the expense of important detail. Leaving out important detail is not reasonable to me unless there is simply too much plot to cover all the big points. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Popcornduff, thanks for clarifying. And, yeah, I saw that you trimmed the Plot section of the Metal Gear Solid article. As for "it's rare, really, to have a story of such length and complexity that it can't be summarised in a reasonable length.", like I've stated on my talk page, including to Bignole, and in the aforementioned "How wide is the 'original research' exception for articles on fictional works?" discussion, I've found daytime soap opera plot summaries difficult in that regard; this is because, in America at least, daytime soap operas commonly air five days a week with a new episode each day, and usually don't play reruns (if the reruns happen, it's usually on holidays). Soap opera characters have commonly existed for decades with so much plot information to cover. When it comes to the Todd Manning article, which was recently elevated to featured status, I came around to wanting a plot section (I'd previously rejected having one) and Figureskatingfan was against having one. We came to a compromise: I should include Todd's most significant plotlines, and leave the rest of the plot information to other sections in the article that discuss the material with a WP:Real-world context. I considered having the plot section have a lot of real-world context, so that it's similar to the Pauline Fowler article, but doing that would have been too much work and Figureskatingfan and I wanted to go ahead and finish up our work on the Todd Manning article. So I settled for the Appearances style noted at MOS:TV (see WP:Manual of Style/Television#Role in "SHOW NAME"), which is seen with articles like Jason Voorhees and Jack Sparrow, except that the Todd Manning article uses the "Storylines" title, has years as subsections, and two real-world quotes. I know that you probably think that is a lot of plot in the Storylines section of that article; I considered pinging you to that talk page for advice on how to trim the material. But Figureskatingfan and I knew that I was more familiar with Todd's plotlines, and we had confidence that I could relay his most important storylines without having people (at least not too many) complain about that section's length. So that's what I did. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:43, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'll just add that the Plot section doesn't need a running string of references, but character articles and lists, even if they have a Plot or Role in series section, should have references to the appropriate chapters, episodes and profiles where it is not a singular work referenced. For example "Darth Vader reveals that he is Luke's father." without the surrounding context would require a reference, but "In The Empire Strikes Back, (other general plot) Vader then reveals that he is Luke's father." would not require the ref. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 01:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC) 01:20, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- AngusWOOF, you know that I always appreciate your commentary. But why do you feel that the Plot or "Role in show" section in a character article should have inline citations? Many articles do that, especially as far as primetime shows go, and especially if they are WP:Good or WP:Featured. But some don't. Same goes for some television series articles. For example, the Jason Voorhees, Jack Sparrow and Darth Vader articles all do that. So do the Buffy Summers and Cordelia Chase articles (the Cordelia Chase article is a WP:Good article). But the Friends, Lewis Archer, A Town Called Mercy and 420 (Family Guy) articles don't (they are also all WP:Good articles; the latter two are episode articles). And in the case of daytime soap opera articles, like Todd Manning or Lewis Archer, it is difficult to cite the episodes in the plot section because there are so many episodes...far more than any primetime show dishes out. Trying to locate the airdate that a daytime soap opera character did something can be daunting. For daytime soap opera characters, the most we can usually hope for when it comes to sourcing such a section is a character profile that is not a fansite. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding the Friends article, you can look at Rachel Green and see how in her Plot section whenever there is some major event or something out of the blue that there is a cite episode attached to it, and when there's general stuff over the flow of the series, it isn't really necessary. For Jason Voorhees, it's overkill to state the movie, present the plot and then cite the movie. Details such as "he kills X and then Y, but dies when Z kills him are not needed as that's just rehashing play-by-play plot. But I see a lot of character descriptions where they write details that could be contested like "lives with his mother" or "is actually a former smoker" and there the citation helps. The citations can be vague though or span multiple episodes if it's a soap opera where details are hard to pinpoint. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 08:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I would disagree that it's "overkill". It's overkill to have 5 sources when one would suffice. In this case, the inline citations contain information about the film (release, credits, etc). Maybe as a "researcher" (and you have to take this approach and not ignore it simply because it's film) I'm not familiar with any particular film. Instead of forcing them to go to every single film page to find that information, it's all right there in the inline citation. Otherwise, you're argument would be if I give you the journal number and date, then who cares who wrote it, because you can just look that up yourself. This is even more true for TV articles, because most people don't know where "Episode X" falls, because most episodes have an actual title. It's a little unprofessional in writing to constantly say "Christmas time, the third episode of season five, featured...." BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree it's a balance, as yes, you wouldn't want to just say that it is in the journal/season and good luck finding it, while on the flip side not every line of plot needs to be cited down to the specific timestamp. Meanwhile, some general stuff like "Scooby-Doo is a brown dog with black spots" falls in WP:BLUE. Anyway, I find secondary sources useful for referencing catchphrases and schticks, although if such sources aren't available, multiple episodes can be used or the character profiles on their official website. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- This may be off-topic here. If we want to change the sourcing requirements for plot summaries and synopses, that's a WP:CORE matter and should be raised probably at WT:V (though WT:NOR could also be a valid venue). The MOS subpage on fiction isn't setting a sourcing standard, it's applying existing ones (namely WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:PSTS – a primary source is sufficient for non-controversial material about itself, and no citation is actually required for non-controversial material; the material has to be sourceable, not sourced). As soon as someone inserts something dubious into a plot summary (most often something that is a subjective interpretation of something the author left vague, i.e. it's potential original research), it's no longer non-controversial and no longer auto-sourced by the work itself, so more detailed sourcing would be expected. Most notable works of fiction have been summarized in various abstracts and reviews. It's probably enough to cite the original work itself, up to the point of the controversial material, cite third party sources for the controversial claim about the plot, then cite the work itself again for the rest of the summary. When it comes to including trivial details that aren't controversial, but which don't seem encyclopedically relevant, that's more a poor vs. good writing matter, not a style matter in the sense usually meant here, and is a matter for editorial discretion at the article. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 04:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- I still don't think we've addressed the issue of proportionality, but I don't want to raise the same point a third time. I'm unwatching the page, but feel free to {{ping}} if you have thoughts. czar 16:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
double vs. single quotes
I notice that WP:MOS#Reasons to prefer double quotation marks to single quotation marks is different than it was a year ago (when it said "... double rather than single quotation marks as primary" ). Now (and for most of this year), it says they're recommended for quotes: "In most primary or top-level quotes double rather than single quotation should be used." But then it gives an example that isn't a quote:
- Searches for "must see" attractions may fail to find 'must see' attractions.
So, which is it? Does MOS recommend double quote marks (except for quotes-within-quotes and a handful of specific exceptions) for all the usual uses of quote marks, or only recommend them for quoted material? (I'll be happy either way, I just need to know.) - Dank (push to talk) 04:05, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've heard no change from the advice, nor noticed any. Not sure who has been hacking on the "reasons" section. Ah, here is the problem. See if you can patch it. Dicklyon (talk) 05:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for researching that. Although some clarification at WP:MOS would be nice, I can live with it as is (since the example given makes the point clear, I think), as long as I know how people interpret it here at WT:MOS ... I know that in the articles I've copyedited the past year for FAC, there's been no change in practice. I was reverted in some work I did at FAC yesterday, and I want to make sure I'm on solid ground before I say anything. - Dank (push to talk) 15:10, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's recommended in general, not just for quotations in the literal sense. There are exceptions, such as non-interlinear glosses, that we already cover. We definitely are not implying that people should use double quotation marks for quotations and single ones for 'scare quotes', or something to this effect, though incautious changes to the wording have probably made this less clear. I'm not sure whether we should just revert to the older wording, or fix the current wording in some way, but the current wording is clearly problematic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 04:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, The New Hacker's Dictionary (a.k.a. the Jargon File) is the primary vector for the usage of single quotes for 'scare quotes' with double quotes for "quotations". It claims that "some authorities describe this as correct general usage", but I've yet to run into a style guide that does so. Anyone ever seen one? We should probably document this at Quotation marks in English. My suspicion is that the book/file isn't lying, but that the sources in question are old ones. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 12:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
"winningest" in sports articles
Initial discussion
It seems that some sports writers like to use pet words like "winningest" which are not familiar to many readers, even American English readers. (I have lots of athlete friends from college and I have never heard them use that word. I am also a photographer who has worked for student newspapers at the University of Virginia.) To me, it's apparent that they should be redacted to standard form along the lines of "best-performing coach/team/etc. by wins" especially since winningest is often used for both absolute number of wins and winning percentage. For that matter, I note we have placed a filler boilerplate on the wikilink winningest, and that we do not use the word "winningest" in the titles of any articles. I would like to solicit consensus on the use of this word. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's a perfectly cromulent word.oknazevad (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Winningest" is a well-established word in the American English language recognized by such sources as Merriam Webster (here), Los Angeles Times (e.g., here), The New York Times (e.g., here), The Wall Street Journal (e.g., here), Newsweek (e.g., here), Associated Press (e.g., here), Reuters (here), Chicago Tribune (e.g., here), The Boston Globe (e.g., here), The Washington Post (here), USA Today (here), The Dallas Morning News (here), Atlanta Journal-Constitution (e.g., here), The Philadelphia Inquirer (e.g., here), and Newsday (e.g., here). IMO, the word is appropriately used in articles about America sports topics, where the word is commonly recognized and used by dictionaries of American English and by the nation's most prestigious media outlets. Cbl62 (talk) 03:23, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's a perfectly legitimate word in formal American English. One person's personal lack of knowledge of a subject is not the grounds for rewriting the entire English language. As noted by Cbl, all major dictionaries and and reliable sources use it without any indication that it's anything except perfectly acceptable formal English. I have no reason to why the OP has never heard it until recently, but that's why we don't base Misplaced Pages guidelines on one person's personal experience. We base it on reliable sources. As noted by the sources cited above, it's a fine word and thus is perfectly acceptable in any article. --Jayron32 03:29, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Your claim of universal acceptance of this as "formal English" is flatly untrue. The American Heritage Dictionary , Oxford dictionaries , and dictionary.com all show "winningest" as "informal". WP articles should be written in a formal WP:TONE.
- "Winningest", like many informal words, is also potentially imprecise and ambiguous. Is the "winningest" coach or team the one with the highest average number of wins per season? Or the most lifetime wins, period? The "winningest" pro golfer or race driver could be the one with the most games or races won, or the highest total earnings won in a year's tour (or lifetime), or etc. This is another reason for avoiding it. Jeh (talk) 05:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- There is no ambiguity. It means "having the greatest number of wins" (see here), not having the highest winning percentage. This is how it is used on Misplaced Pages. The fact that it can also be used in other ways (e.g., "winningest smile") doesn't mean it must be stricken. Many words have alternate definitions. Cbl62 (talk) 05:18, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Winningest?!? I've never heard the word before and I can think of no situation in which it is not possible to convey the intended meaning with widely (and internationally) understood vocabulary. Remember the principle of least astonishment. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Most wins" when? Per season? Per career? (A strange and even meaningless way to compare people, since different people have different length careers.) Note that dictionary.com doesn't define it as "most wins" but rather "winning most often"; AHD says "more successful or winning most often"; Oxford simply says "Having achieved the most success", which again is vague (how do you define "success"?) Just because you haven't encountered uses other than the one you think of doesn't mean the other uses aren't prevalent. A sports commentary column in a newspaper is one thing, but an encyclopedia should always use the most precise, unambiguous wording possible, and "winningest" is very far from that. Nor have you answered the "informal" point. Jeh (talk) 07:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- There is no ambiguity. It means "having the greatest number of wins" (see here), not having the highest winning percentage. This is how it is used on Misplaced Pages. The fact that it can also be used in other ways (e.g., "winningest smile") doesn't mean it must be stricken. Many words have alternate definitions. Cbl62 (talk) 05:18, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Without even looking it up (to see what it means), I'd judged it to be too informal for normal use in WP articles. Also has a cheap ring about it. Tony (talk) 08:05, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's a good approach. Let's just ban words "without even looking it up", because to one's ear, it has a "cheap ring about it." Forget about the fact that Encyclopedia Britannica and The New York Times use it, it sounds "cheap" to me. Brilliant analysis, Tony! Cbl62 (talk) 20:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I generally try to avoid sarcasm and apologize if my comment appeared pointy, Tony. I actually felt that the term had a dissonant quality when I first began encountering it on Misplaced Pages, but when I learned that the word had gained widespread acceptance in virtually every major American media outlet, I concluded that the term is appropriate, at least when used in the context of American sporting topics where its usage has become common and accepted. Cbl62 (talk) 23:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's a good approach. Let's just ban words "without even looking it up", because to one's ear, it has a "cheap ring about it." Forget about the fact that Encyclopedia Britannica and The New York Times use it, it sounds "cheap" to me. Brilliant analysis, Tony! Cbl62 (talk) 20:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Tony1: I agree completely. Jeh (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- It is clearly a valid word in American English, but per WP:COMMONALITY alternatives that work in all varieties of English should be used in place of it where possible (which I imagine would be most situations). Jenks24 (talk) 13:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- The word is used in an informal context in the US (where I live) but no way is it encyclopedic enough to use in Misplaced Pages articles - even sports articles. I support the removal of the term and replacement with more formal wording in all articles. Perhaps someday in the future it will be considered formal, but that's certainly not the case as of now. Rockypedia (talk) 15:53, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I particularly appreciate the arguments and evidence provided by Cbl62 and Jeh and it would be helpful if others could provide similarly substantive contributions to support opinions on this topic. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 16:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Encyclopedic/unencyclopedic is too ill-defined be of any use. It's another way of saying "I like it/don't like it". The closest policy we have is Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not, which contains nothing suggesting we can't use words like "winningest". There is no policy or guideline saying formal English is mandatory. WP:FORMAL/WP:TONE is from a mere essay, that is, advice or opinion "for which consensus has not been established." We have citations saying this is standard or informal American English, not slang or a neologism. H.W. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, p. 146, says winningest is "without stylistic taint." The New York Times has used the word hundreds of times for the last ~100 years. The Columbia Encyclopedia uses "winningest" in its entries for Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Eddie Robinson Lenny Wilkens and Bill Belichick. Encyclopædia Britannica uses "winningest" on Bobby Bowden, Martin Brodeur, New Jersey Devils, and sixteen other articles. Encyclopedia Americana uses the word in its Michael Phelps article. Surely actual encyclopedias can tell us what is encyclopedic, rather than mere opinion? For some six+ years (until this issue became a few editors' pet peeve) the Featured Articles 2005 ACC Championship Game, 2008 Orange Bowl, Roberto Luongo, plus 3 Featured Lists and 9 Good Articles used the word, with nobody complaining on the talk pages, "I don't understand what winningest means!" The meaning is unmistakable even if you've never seen it before (unlike petrol, lorry, or other UK English we use frequently). A couple talk pages have comments from UK editors who erroneously claim it's "not a word", but the suggestion it is ambiguous is not supported by any facts. Every proposed alternative is more wordy without offering any more precision. Words like "successful" and "victorious" have the same ambiguity as winningest, none of them telling us if it is best win/loss ratio, or most absolute wins. Successful also can imply commercial or other success, while winningest at least is about contest wins. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Some editors are continuing their campaign to excise the word from Misplaced Pages. This edit from today is an example that belies the professed concern over ambiguity, as the word "winningest" (a word with a clear meaning: having the most wins) is replaced with "most successful" (a word that is utterly unclear and completely muddies the meaning). I realize that many individuals "don't like" the word (especially Brits, where the word is not widely recognized), but it is a word that has wide acceptance in American media sources and is applied with clear meaning in sports context by the country's leading media outlets. I don't advocate trying to impose the word on other parts of the encyclopedia, but in the context of American sports, but it has a clear meaning there, and efforts to excise a perfectly valid and widely-used word from our Misplaced Pages vocabulary is simply a case of 'I don't like it'. Cbl62 (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I want to add that we don't need an entry in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style saying "You are allowed to say winningest". But when you note the fact that the encyclopedia that uses the word more than any other is the more British than British Brittanica itself, it underscores how much we need to ignore, and hopefully stop posting, mere opinion about what is a "proper word". Even if you're from the UK, I think Brittanica is a WP:RS, not some random editor. So we should be drafting language for the MOS which says that the tone and level of formality, and word choice, we use is guided by sources, like dictionaries, and style guides, and examples, like real encyclopedias and respectable media. A similar discussion at Talk:Volkswagen emissions scandal agreed that while the NYT, BBC, CNN, WSJ, etc are highly reliable for facts, many editors thought the actual words found in our best sources, "cheated", "caught" were mere "tabloid" and "slang". Why? Because they said so. The MOS should give respect to sources when it comes to word choice. Similarly, FAs and GAs carry some weight, since they represent consensus, far more than a mere essay. WP:OSE is releant to low-ranked articles, not Wikipeda's best content as judged by many editors, and this should be reflected in the MOS as well. At the very least, it should say we aren't going to toss a word under the bus because an editor with no reliable sources doesn't like it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Just FYI, the Encyclopædia Britannica, despite its name, hasn't been a British publication, but an American one, since 1901 (or 1911, depending on whether you want the date of ownership change or the date of the first American edition). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 05:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I want to add that we don't need an entry in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style saying "You are allowed to say winningest". But when you note the fact that the encyclopedia that uses the word more than any other is the more British than British Brittanica itself, it underscores how much we need to ignore, and hopefully stop posting, mere opinion about what is a "proper word". Even if you're from the UK, I think Brittanica is a WP:RS, not some random editor. So we should be drafting language for the MOS which says that the tone and level of formality, and word choice, we use is guided by sources, like dictionaries, and style guides, and examples, like real encyclopedias and respectable media. A similar discussion at Talk:Volkswagen emissions scandal agreed that while the NYT, BBC, CNN, WSJ, etc are highly reliable for facts, many editors thought the actual words found in our best sources, "cheated", "caught" were mere "tabloid" and "slang". Why? Because they said so. The MOS should give respect to sources when it comes to word choice. Similarly, FAs and GAs carry some weight, since they represent consensus, far more than a mere essay. WP:OSE is releant to low-ranked articles, not Wikipeda's best content as judged by many editors, and this should be reflected in the MOS as well. At the very least, it should say we aren't going to toss a word under the bus because an editor with no reliable sources doesn't like it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Some editors are continuing their campaign to excise the word from Misplaced Pages. This edit from today is an example that belies the professed concern over ambiguity, as the word "winningest" (a word with a clear meaning: having the most wins) is replaced with "most successful" (a word that is utterly unclear and completely muddies the meaning). I realize that many individuals "don't like" the word (especially Brits, where the word is not widely recognized), but it is a word that has wide acceptance in American media sources and is applied with clear meaning in sports context by the country's leading media outlets. I don't advocate trying to impose the word on other parts of the encyclopedia, but in the context of American sports, but it has a clear meaning there, and efforts to excise a perfectly valid and widely-used word from our Misplaced Pages vocabulary is simply a case of 'I don't like it'. Cbl62 (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- As this word is most commonly used in American sporting articles, we ought to notify the relevant American sporting projects so that they can provide any input they may have. I left a neutrally-worded note on two talk pages here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject College Basketball#"winningest" and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject College football#"winningest. Other relevant pages should probably be notified as well. Cbl62 (talk) 20:45, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Winningest" is an abhorrence of a word. But if we accept that its usage can be limited to American sports articles, then we can probably cope. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Entirely reasonable. We Yanks have always been a little rough around the edges, and nobody is trying to impose the word outside of its accepted context (i.e., we shall not reference Tony Blair as the "winningest" Prime Minister). Cbl62 (talk) 21:00, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that it's a reasonable compromise if we can be assured that it is indeed a word whose use is limited to the U.S. context outside of Misplaced Pages. ElKevbo (talk) 21:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Entirely reasonable. We Yanks have always been a little rough around the edges, and nobody is trying to impose the word outside of its accepted context (i.e., we shall not reference Tony Blair as the "winningest" Prime Minister). Cbl62 (talk) 21:00, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Winningest", while perfectly cromulent, is informal in usage.
This may change for this particular word, but as we see from comments in various locations, attracts a lot of negativity right now. "Most successful" is too vague to be a good replacement, but "most victorious" is exactly right. There can be no complaints about usage or meaning. --Pete (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2016 (UTC)Misplaced Pages articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone. Standards for formal tone vary depending upon the subject matter, but should follow the style used by reliable sources, while remaining clear and understandable. Formal tone means that the article should not be written using argot, slang, colloquialisms, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon that is unintelligible to an average reader; it means that the English language should be used in a businesslike manner.
- "Winningest", while perfectly cromulent, is informal in usage.
- As a count of victories potentially includes moral victories, you proposed phrase has a different meaning than the word you are attempting to replace. --Allen3 04:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Come on, now. It is not too informal for the Encyclopedia Britannica. Nor is it too informal for serious reporting (not just opinion pieces) in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Boston Globe, and every other major American newspaper -- I didn't realize that Britannica and every major American newspaper were verbal ruffians. Cbl62 (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Also, Pete, the essay you quote concedes that we "should follow the style used by reliable sources". America's most reliable and respected media outlets use "winningest" (not "most victorious") in American sporting contexts. Cbl62 (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- If we look to specialist writing areas, we also encounter jargon. Sports articles are full of terms which are incomprehensible to an outsider. We should aim for clarity overall. --Pete (talk) 21:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Understandability is not the issue. Nobody has ever seriously asserted that they don't know what it means. The fact that everyone who dislikes the word was able to rewrite it, without having to ask what the original author meant, is proof that nobody has misunderstood the word. The real objection is that it "sounds wrong" based on a prescriptivist English point of view. We should look to style guides, like Fowler, and models like Brittanica and the NYT, to tell us what is an isn't "proper English".
I would be persuaded to change my mind if anyone could show evidene that this word is any harder to understand than the rest of Misplaced Pages. This isn't Simple English Misplaced Pages, after all, and even if it were, "winningest" would probably be the preferred word to achieve clarity for readers with smaller vocabularies. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Understandability is not the issue. Nobody has ever seriously asserted that they don't know what it means. The fact that everyone who dislikes the word was able to rewrite it, without having to ask what the original author meant, is proof that nobody has misunderstood the word. The real objection is that it "sounds wrong" based on a prescriptivist English point of view. We should look to style guides, like Fowler, and models like Brittanica and the NYT, to tell us what is an isn't "proper English".
- If we look to specialist writing areas, we also encounter jargon. Sports articles are full of terms which are incomprehensible to an outsider. We should aim for clarity overall. --Pete (talk) 21:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Also, Pete, the essay you quote concedes that we "should follow the style used by reliable sources". America's most reliable and respected media outlets use "winningest" (not "most victorious") in American sporting contexts. Cbl62 (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)"Winningest" only recently attracted attention as a sideshow to an unrelated conflict among editors. Prior to that, where is the evidence among these many, many articles that it attracts "a lot of negativity"? I've seen poorly written Misplaced Pages content that drew many questions from readers, but not this word. And while everyone is entitled to their opinion that Misplaced Pages should be formal, are you aware that no policy or guideline says formal English is required? No matter how much you quote WP:FORMAL, it still lacks widespread consensus. If it had such support, it would be a guideline.
And as Cbl62 suggests, what constitutes a proper tone has to come from somewhere, and I would think Brittanica, NYT, Columbia Encyclopedia, H.W. Fowler, etc are the reliable soruces we have always looked to to settle everything. Not opinion, not voting. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's what bothers me most: I don't know how much of this is (the edits, not the discussion here) is driven by a sincere objection to the word and how much is driven by a petty desire to foment conflict among editors who dislike one another. The fact that the word was recently raised in several ANI discussions between and about editors who apparently dislike one another and the fact that the word has been used in FAs and GAs for many years now without objection makes me suspicious and wary. ElKevbo (talk) 21:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm quite concerned at how many veteran editors are willing to argue with total confidence that we can't use a word (whether it's winningest, or cheated, or caught) based on totally unsourced, and demonstrably false opinions. I've edited for years grounded by the basic idea of verifiablity, "verifiabilty not truth" etc. Yet here none of these editors will cite a single thing, and they casually toss aside our most serious, most respected sources. Leaving us nothing to base our decisions on. That's why it matters, not this one word.
Ground your arguments in reliable sources and I will happily change my mind. I've been proven wrong many times before and I'm grateful to anyone who shows me evidence of my errors. But not to those who do nothing but cling to opinion and expect that to carry weight. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm quite concerned at how many veteran editors are willing to argue with total confidence that we can't use a word (whether it's winningest, or cheated, or caught) based on totally unsourced, and demonstrably false opinions. I've edited for years grounded by the basic idea of verifiablity, "verifiabilty not truth" etc. Yet here none of these editors will cite a single thing, and they casually toss aside our most serious, most respected sources. Leaving us nothing to base our decisions on. That's why it matters, not this one word.
- That's what bothers me most: I don't know how much of this is (the edits, not the discussion here) is driven by a sincere objection to the word and how much is driven by a petty desire to foment conflict among editors who dislike one another. The fact that the word was recently raised in several ANI discussions between and about editors who apparently dislike one another and the fact that the word has been used in FAs and GAs for many years now without objection makes me suspicious and wary. ElKevbo (talk) 21:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)"Winningest" only recently attracted attention as a sideshow to an unrelated conflict among editors. Prior to that, where is the evidence among these many, many articles that it attracts "a lot of negativity"? I've seen poorly written Misplaced Pages content that drew many questions from readers, but not this word. And while everyone is entitled to their opinion that Misplaced Pages should be formal, are you aware that no policy or guideline says formal English is required? No matter how much you quote WP:FORMAL, it still lacks widespread consensus. If it had such support, it would be a guideline.
- Lewis Carroll used "curiouser" (s:Alice's Adventures Under Ground/Chapter 1), but "more curious" is correct in standard English. Likewise, "most victorious" is correct in standard English.
- —Wavelength (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Curiouser is a neologism -- nonstandard English, in isolated usage after being coined by one author. Winningest dates to 1804, over 200 years, according to our sources, and is in widespread use in serious writing. If you had sources saying winningest was a neologism like curiouser, you'd have a strong point. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:44, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- See "curiouser" (1865) at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=curiouser.
- —Wavelength (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, Lewis Carroll playfully made it up. The word is used almost exclusively in playful references to Carroll's work and ideas. Winningest is nothing like that. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Curiouser is a neologism -- nonstandard English, in isolated usage after being coined by one author. Winningest dates to 1804, over 200 years, according to our sources, and is in widespread use in serious writing. If you had sources saying winningest was a neologism like curiouser, you'd have a strong point. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:44, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- "
... we do not use the word "winningest" in any articles
": Contrary to Yanping Nora Soong's claim, a search on Misplaced Pages shows usage of winningest in American sports articles. WP:PROPOSAL suggests that guidelines "documents existing practices, rather than proposing a change to them". While winningest is American English, it is acceptable per MOS:ENGVAR. Moreover, the term is specific to the sports domain, which seems too much of a niche for MOS to get involved. Instead of banning words, something like "Wile E. Coyote was the winningest coach in Acme history with 550 career wins" could help bridge any gap that might exist.—Bagumba (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)- Sorry, I meant that we do not use it in the titles of any articles -- namely, any article or list "winningest" in the title always redirects to a more formal name. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 22:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- User:Reyk is on a mass campaign today, during the pendency of this discussion, to remove the word from as many American sporting articles as he/she can find. The status quo ante should be maintained until this discussion has reached a conclusion. Accordingly, I intend to revert Reyk's mass edits pending the outcome here. Cbl62 (talk) 22:19, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- User:Skyring is doing the same thing. I wouldn't recommend to edit warring with these guys. It seems like bait for a 3RR trap. But if this has a clear resolution, we can probably return to the stable versions of these articles. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've notified Reyk and Skyring about this discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 22:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- User:Skyring is doing the same thing. I wouldn't recommend to edit warring with these guys. It seems like bait for a 3RR trap. But if this has a clear resolution, we can probably return to the stable versions of these articles. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. It would be totally uncool for any editor who knows of this discussion to continue making edits that may or may not have consensus on such a non-time-sensitive issue. ElKevbo (talk) 22:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think some may have accidentally tacked their manhood to this word. It's almost painful to hear the yelps when someone has a contrary opinion. I agree. Discussion is far better than edit-warring, and a lot more fun. Perhaps we should look at an RfC: hard to find a consensus in what this is turning into: a rough tangle of short and curly posts. --Pete (talk) 23:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- You have made what, two hundred edits in the last week or so, on 30 or 40 different pages, all related to "winningest"? You claim it's WP:LAME, yet it's almost all you do now. But it's other editors who have a problem? Not you? Seems like quite a personal attack and violation of WP:AGF to (repeatedly) post that "some may have accidentally tacked their manhood to this word". Is that supposed to be helpful in this discussion?
Creating an RfC -- a whole NEW discussion of the same topic -- would be forum shopping. We're resolving this right here. We don't need to start over. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:46, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, but I'm enjoying the discussion. What I mean - and you should understand, after all you've been around since Misplaced Pages was in short pants - is that an RfC is a more structured mechanism than a discussion such as this. The way it's going, there are a range of intertwangled opinions, regrettably a few short fuses and bruised egos, and it's hard, very hard, to come up with a good result mutually satisfactory to all parties. An RfC has the advantage of a well-phrased question, structured responses, and a closing admin. Even if we don't all like the result, it's a bed we can all lie in. --Pete (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- At an appropriate time, someone can request closure. If the admin says there's no consensus, then perhaps an RfC is the next step. But first see if this reaches a good consensus, before shifting to a new forum. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, but I'm enjoying the discussion. What I mean - and you should understand, after all you've been around since Misplaced Pages was in short pants - is that an RfC is a more structured mechanism than a discussion such as this. The way it's going, there are a range of intertwangled opinions, regrettably a few short fuses and bruised egos, and it's hard, very hard, to come up with a good result mutually satisfactory to all parties. An RfC has the advantage of a well-phrased question, structured responses, and a closing admin. Even if we don't all like the result, it's a bed we can all lie in. --Pete (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- You have made what, two hundred edits in the last week or so, on 30 or 40 different pages, all related to "winningest"? You claim it's WP:LAME, yet it's almost all you do now. But it's other editors who have a problem? Not you? Seems like quite a personal attack and violation of WP:AGF to (repeatedly) post that "some may have accidentally tacked their manhood to this word". Is that supposed to be helpful in this discussion?
- I think some may have accidentally tacked their manhood to this word. It's almost painful to hear the yelps when someone has a contrary opinion. I agree. Discussion is far better than edit-warring, and a lot more fun. Perhaps we should look at an RfC: hard to find a consensus in what this is turning into: a rough tangle of short and curly posts. --Pete (talk) 23:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. It would be totally uncool for any editor who knows of this discussion to continue making edits that may or may not have consensus on such a non-time-sensitive issue. ElKevbo (talk) 22:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've been following this discussion for the last couple of days, and doing my best to avoid the massive time-sink that this discussion is sure to become before it concludes with more heat than light. Having made that disclaimer, I've got to say that I believe that the word "winningest" is awkward, inelegant and imprecise, and its exact meaning is ambiguous without further elaboration. It is a colorful Americanism that no doubt originated in American sports-writing, a genre well known for its often creative use of Shakespeare's English. Personally, I try to write my way around the word whenever possible because I know in my writer's heart of hearts that the good Professor Strunk would not approve. That said, the word is sometimes almost unavoidable in describing the win-loss history of career coaches and the like, and it is often part of the most concise wording available to express the intended meaning. Yeah, I know, that sounds like gibberish, but it's the truth. I've reconciled myself to using it only when absolutely necessary, and then only in sports articles. To my mind, it's a bit like the malapropism "normalcy," the use of which once led to a U.S. President being mocked in the mainstream media of the 1920s, but is now used more frequently in every day writing than the "correct" word "normality". That's the nature of the evolving language. I'm not particularly fond of the word, but I see no reason why MOS should try to micromanage its use by banning or restricting it, nor should individual editors make it a quest to purge it from Wikipeda. Our volunteer editing time is better spent elsewhere. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I don't follow sports, but I'm perfectly familiar with the word and its well-established use in North America. The MoS should avoid this micromanagement of the language. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Since Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Contested vocabulary says "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality", we could say that the MOS already has this covered, along with WP:ENGVAR. Perhaps the real problem is the essay WP:FORMAL needs to be changed to bring it in line with the real guidelines. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- At this point is it even about the validity of winningest or witch word better informs and educates the reader. Just like the fact that the word encyclopedia comes from the greeks. How do they express wining victory as in the greek goddess of victory nike. And are they not the first creators of sport as in the olympics. They also did not name a shoe after winning its nike victory . So how is winningest a better choice over victorious. 72bikers (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've long been of the opinion that "winningest" is bad English, an annoying affectation, and too informal for an encyclopedia, and jarring for non North American readers. It's frequently vague. I have never yet come across a use where it could not be replaced by more elegant and precise English. I see it a lot in articles on college sports coaches, some of whom have even, or even losing, records overall and only have managed a lot of wins because they were there for a long time. Describing someone who loses more often than he wins as "winningest" is downright stupid and borderline misleading. This silly gimmicky thing should be taken out of articles and replaced with better language. Reyk YO! 07:48, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with much of what's been said already. Even supposing that the word "winningest" is a perfectly cromulent word, take it out and replace it with its synonym, "most victorious," and what you have is a subjective and vague statement. I can't imagine a situation where either is the most appropriate:
- By taking the fifth and sixth races at Woodbine, Emma-Jayne moved ahead of Villeneuve as Canada's all-time most victorious female jockey
- By taking the fifth and sixth races at Woodbine, Emma-Jayne moved ahead of Villeneuve as Canada's all-time winningest female jockey
- By taking the fifth and sixth races at Woodbine, Emma-Jayne moved ahead of Villenueve to hold the record for the most career victories of any Canadian female jockey.
- The last one may not be the best wording possible, but it is at least clear why she is considered to be "the winningest." If someone wants to describe her that way, fine, but isn't that what we're about and why we're required to cite sources? Because we're not telling you what's true, but why it's believed to be true: the sources said X. Jm (talk | contribs) 14:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- On the question of WP:ENGVAR and WP:TIES. H. L. Mencken discuses the special use of -er and -est adjectives as a peculiarly US American language pattern in The American Language: An Inquiry into the Development of English in the United States. A.A. Knopf, 1921 Chapter: The Common Speech pages 308-309. This, along with the many dictionaries that say it's US English, is more evidence that this word winningist is part of the national variety of English of the US, and should be respected as such according to WP:RETAIN and WP:TIES.
H. L. Mencken7. The Adjective
The adjectives in English are inflected only for comparison, and the American commonly uses them correctly, with now and then a double comparative or superlative to ease his soul. More better is the commonest of these. It has a good deal of support in logic. A sick man is reported today to be better. Tomorrow he is further improved. Is he to be reported better again or best? The standard language gets around the difficulty by using still better. The American vulgate boldly employs more better. In the case of worse, worser is used as Charters shows. He also reports baddest, more queerer and beautifullest. Littler, which he notes, is still outlawed from standard English, but it has, with littlest a respectable place in American. The late Richard Harding Davis wrote a play called "The Littlest Girl" The American freely compares adjectives that are incapable of the inflection logically. Charters reports most principal, and I myself have heard uniquer and even more uniquer, as in "I have never saw nothing more uniquer." I have also heard more ultra, more worse, idealer, liver (that is more alive) and wellest as in "he was the wellest man you ever seen." In general the -er and -est terminations are used instead of the more and most prefixes as in beautiful, beautifuller, beautifullest. The fact that the comparative relates to two and the superlative to more than two is almost always forgotten. I have never heard "the better of the two," in the popular speech but always "the best of the two." Charters also reports "the hardest of the two" and "my brother and I measured and he was the tallest." I have frequently heard "it ain't so worse but here a humorous effect seems to have been intended.
--Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Gauging consensus
The above discussion has many tangles and opinion, but perhaps we might find some small parcels of common ground:
- "Winningest" is a perfectly cromulent word with some decades of use in American sportswriting.
- It is seen as awkward and informal by many. Some regard it as a nonsense word, slang at best.
- "Most successful" is a vague and ambiguous alternate wording.
- "Most victorious" is a precise and formal alternate wording, albeit five characters longer.
If I can ask editors to refrain from commenting on the motives of others, but to restrict their contributions to the word(s) and usage in Misplaced Pages articles in general, please. --Pete (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- My preferred alternative to "winningest X in Y" is "best-performing X in Y by wins" Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 08:43, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- However, "best-performing" is subjective, but winningest is objective i.e. most wins.—Bagumba (talk) 09:34, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's why it's "best-performing .... by wins". Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 09:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've seen it used in terms of most championships, best winning percentage, and winning frequency (per week or per month or whatever). Reyk YO! 10:16, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- However, "best-performing" is subjective, but winningest is objective i.e. most wins.—Bagumba (talk) 09:34, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I favor precision, such as "highest win percentage" but it's a real word, and "most victorious" is actually vague - you can be "victorious" if you are valiant in defeat, for example. Montanabw 23:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Poll: Is "winningest" a MOS issue?
I think a poll is in line to gauge if this is seen as an MOS issue or not.—Bagumba (talk) 02:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- What I meant to ask was whether the existing MOS needs any specific changes to handle winningest.—Bagumba (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Guideline changes for "winningest" are needed in MOS
- Support -- I think the project could definitely use some clarification on this issue. Perhaps an MoS update for a single word would be excessive, but it could be added to a subpolicy page (with other words included). Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 08:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Suport There are enough sources to support claims that it is an informal term, to fall foul of WP:FORMAL unless used in the context of a direct quotation. While I agree that MOS:ENGVAR doesn't have preferences regarding variations of English, MOS:COMMONALITY makes it clear that when we have a suitable term that is universally understood, it should be used instead of terms that are less than universally understood. most victorious has the correct tone for an enclyclopedia, without any hint of informality and in universally understood. It's a far better choice than a term that has claims of informality and is not universally understood. However, I'm not sure if MOS needs to put this on a bad words list - it's no big deal, I think that WP:FORMAL & MOS:COMMONALITY make it pretty clear that in most cases, we should use something else. But either way, it's a horrible thing to read unless you want to give Misplaced Pages the tone of a cheap tabloid publication. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:52, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I hope "most victorious" is not a serious contender for preferred alternative. Holy cripes. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Spacecowboy420: Yanping Nora Soong moved your response from the "Oppose" section below, presumably since you began with "Support". However, you appear to say the existing guidelines cover the case of winningest. Can you reaffirm your support !vote, and state what changes you are seeking. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 09:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Suppport. It is our duty to ensure, in the average, two letters "p" per support in a MOS vote. Otherwise, such a MOS-singest discussion would become laughtingest. Pldx1 (talk) 08:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Pldx1: Yanping Nora Soong moved your response from the "Oppose" section below, presumably since you began with "Support". Can you reaffirm your support !vote, and state what changes you are seeking. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 09:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support/moot point- of course it is a MOS issue that universally understood English is preferred to slang terms and regional colloquialisms, but the MOS already makes this clear. Perhaps Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Words to watch needs a section on avoiding words that make Misplaced Pages sound like a low-brow tabloid. Reyk YO! 08:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- To be clear, and since "winningest" is commonly used in Encyclopedia Britannica, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, etc., I assume you consider these highly esteemed publications to be "low-brow tabloids"? Cbl62 (talk) 08:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think this sort of language is beneath them, yes. If they occasionally want to use a slang term for dramatic effect they can, but that does not mean we should follow. I also point out that a lot of these uses are direct quotations, or non sports-related uses like "he has the winningest smile". Reyk YO! 08:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's not slang. If you believe it is, then the onus is on you to provide evidence. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just checked a bunch of online dictionaries. Oxford dictionary describes it as "North American informal". In Wiktionary it's described as "US, sports". It has an entry in Marriam-Webster but Chambers, Longman, Collins American, and Cambridge do not recognise it at all. I think referring to it as regional slang is accurate. If you believe it is suitable in tone for an encyclopedia, you need to give some evidence for that claim. Reyk YO! 11:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- In other words, you've found nothing that looks like evidence that it's slang. Onus is still in your court. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Um, yes I did. In fact, I showed that a majority of dictionaries seem not to think it's even a word. You seem not to be paying attention. The onus is on you to prove why a vague, informal regional term is better than more precise, less informal terminology understood by English speakers worldwide. Demonstrate why it would be a good idea for Misplaced Pages to adopt the tone of a low-brow tabloid newspaper. Reyk YO! 12:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, let's count the pieces of evidence you have that it's slang: ... uh ... zero. Right, that's right: zero—and your closing sentence is a non sequitur. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Um, yes, er, a regional informal term not even recognised as a word by a majority of reputable dictionaries, is most definitely slang. I'm sorry that you don't like that, but the facts are what they are. Please don't respond. I have no time or patience for your continual "nuh-uh! nuh-uh! nuh-uh!", and you still have not even attempted to explain why you think Misplaced Pages needs to adopt the low tone of sports editorials when more precise, universally understood, and more elegant terms can be used. Reyk YO! 12:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Nor do you have the patience to back up your claim, apparently. "nuh-uh! nuh-uh!" indeed. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- You asked for evidence, I provided it in the mistaken belief that you're here to discuss constructively, and you're just responding with "Lalala i cant hear you" and refusing to back up your own opinion with anything. There is no point continuing to talk to you. Good day. Reyk YO! 13:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Not one source calling it "slang" equals zero evidence. That's empiricism. Whether you stop talking to me or "stop talking to me" will not make the evidence less nonexistent. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- You asked for evidence, I provided it in the mistaken belief that you're here to discuss constructively, and you're just responding with "Lalala i cant hear you" and refusing to back up your own opinion with anything. There is no point continuing to talk to you. Good day. Reyk YO! 13:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Nor do you have the patience to back up your claim, apparently. "nuh-uh! nuh-uh!" indeed. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Um, yes, er, a regional informal term not even recognised as a word by a majority of reputable dictionaries, is most definitely slang. I'm sorry that you don't like that, but the facts are what they are. Please don't respond. I have no time or patience for your continual "nuh-uh! nuh-uh! nuh-uh!", and you still have not even attempted to explain why you think Misplaced Pages needs to adopt the low tone of sports editorials when more precise, universally understood, and more elegant terms can be used. Reyk YO! 12:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, let's count the pieces of evidence you have that it's slang: ... uh ... zero. Right, that's right: zero—and your closing sentence is a non sequitur. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Um, yes I did. In fact, I showed that a majority of dictionaries seem not to think it's even a word. You seem not to be paying attention. The onus is on you to prove why a vague, informal regional term is better than more precise, less informal terminology understood by English speakers worldwide. Demonstrate why it would be a good idea for Misplaced Pages to adopt the tone of a low-brow tabloid newspaper. Reyk YO! 12:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- In other words, you've found nothing that looks like evidence that it's slang. Onus is still in your court. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just checked a bunch of online dictionaries. Oxford dictionary describes it as "North American informal". In Wiktionary it's described as "US, sports". It has an entry in Marriam-Webster but Chambers, Longman, Collins American, and Cambridge do not recognise it at all. I think referring to it as regional slang is accurate. If you believe it is suitable in tone for an encyclopedia, you need to give some evidence for that claim. Reyk YO! 11:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's not slang. If you believe it is, then the onus is on you to provide evidence. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think this sort of language is beneath them, yes. If they occasionally want to use a slang term for dramatic effect they can, but that does not mean we should follow. I also point out that a lot of these uses are direct quotations, or non sports-related uses like "he has the winningest smile". Reyk YO! 08:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- To be clear, and since "winningest" is commonly used in Encyclopedia Britannica, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, etc., I assume you consider these highly esteemed publications to be "low-brow tabloids"? Cbl62 (talk) 08:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- To answer the question asked, no, no changes are needed. However, I find the use of the word on Misplaced Pages incorrect, per WP:JARGON. To quote,
Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader when more common alternatives will do.
This phrase is invariably specialized to American sports writers. We are not writing for American sports readers but for all English readers, and so I find this word fails to meet the intent of the guideline. --Izno (talk) 13:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC) 
Support I don't think it needs to be belaboured, nor banned outright, but given the number of pixels spilled here, I think it would be good as an example of the existing rules. While it's constructed following standard English rules and thus not confusing even on first encounter, it's an affectedly informal word intended to highlight the author's anti-intellectualism. (In the spirit of "I don't spell good.") 71.41.210.146 (talk) 14:00, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- The "anti-intellectualism" is not in the use of "winningest" but where one refuses to consider the evidence presented. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Oppose - Guideline changes for "winningest" are not needed in MOS
- Oppose: "Winningest" is an American sports phrase, probably used in Canada too,, and MOS does not have a preference on an English variety per MOS:ENGVAR. This also does not fall under Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Words to watch, as it does not violate the core content policies of Neutral point of view, No original research, and Verifiability. This word is used in the niche of (North) American sports, and is not otherwise generally used. At best, this can be dealt with outside MOS, perhaps among editors of (North) American sports articles and their respective WikiProjects to determine whether "winningest" is considered well written or not.—Bagumba (talk) 02:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: perfectly common word in sports writing in North America (including Canada—the Montreal Canadiens are frequently referred to in print as the "winningest" team in the NHL, and have been as far back as my memory goes). It is not slang. The whole issue can result in no more than fatiguing editors without improving a line of prose. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: Since there is no evidence the meaning of winningest is not obvious, it does not fall under the current MOS discouragement of jargon. We have reliable sources that it is an Americanism, and sources don't agree on whether it is standard or informal English, so it should be kept in US-related articles per WP:RETAIN. No sources support that it is a neologism or slang. The current MOS discourages "straining for formality" and "unnecessarily complex wording", thus discouraging awkward attempts to replace winningest, because "Plain English works best" according to the MOS. Essays subordinate to the MOS, specifically the "explanatory supplement" Misplaced Pages:Writing better articles#Tone, should be modified to correctly reflect that awkward writing in the service of formality is not desirable, and formal English is not mandatory. Claims that a word is or isn't "proper English" should be subject to verifiability. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: It not a winning word in my book, but we can't put every losing concept into the MOS. Maybe it make sense in sports, if sources use it so much. Dicklyon (talk) 04:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose on the narrow question, on the basis that it's too small a point to be covered in the MoS. But strong exception to the sort of legalism that says we have to source every reaction to words. In my opinion it is clear that "winningest" is far too informal to appear in encyclopedic writing, and if others agree with me, that is enough. There has to be room to edit based on consensus of editors. Also, yes, formal English is mandatory in encyclopedic writing. --Trovatore (talk) 04:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. As stated above, "winningest" is a recognized and proper word in American English and is routinely used in virtually every major America media outlet, including New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, etc. There is no valid basis for a rule proscribing its usage, as applied in the context of American sporting subjects where it is commonly used. Cbl62 (talk) 08:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose, it's a fine word. Just because some folks don't like doesn't make it bad English. older ≠ wiser 11:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose, ENGVAR already covers it. There's no need to call out or itemize specific words which are valid in some dialects and reliable sources, but not in others. --Jayron32 17:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per my comment above @22:58, 14 January 2015. MOS should not engage in this kind of selective micromanagement. Ample evidence has been presented of the word's common use and acceptance by mainstream American publications such as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post. Attempts by non-American editors to dismiss or discredit use of the word by these highly respected publications is misguided, and some of the comments border on pseudo-intellectual with a less-than-subtle whiff of anti-Americanism. The word may not be preferred by some editors (including myself), but as long as its use is largely confined to sports-related subjects these attempts by a small handful of editors to remove the word en masse or use MOS to universally ban the word from Misplaced Pages should be denied. Enough. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, your attempts to construe this whole thing as an "anti-American" effort is a bad faith accusation, given that many of the editors with objections (including myself) are American. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2016 (UTC) I don't know if English is your first language or not, but I urge you to re-read my comment, and focus on the meaning of the words "some" and "small handful" in my comment. As for AGF, I don't need to make any assumptions; I only need to read the "anti" comments in this thread, several of which speak for themselves in terms of their own biases. As an American, you are certainly free to express your own preferences, as I and many others have already done. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Whereas all the unsourced pejoratives "stupid", "childish", "rubbish", "slang", "cheap", "abhorrence", "affectation", "jarring", "nonsense", "annoying stupid non-word", "low-brow"... that's not bad faith? That's some passionate invective to be using with zero sources' cited to support it. It's not totally implausible that nationalism is the real motive behind these unsourced attacks and insults, given that support for use of winningest has yielded a carpetbombing-level of citation overkill. It's almost like the less your sources support you, the louder you have to bleat. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- The difference is that we're describing a disliked terminology- you and Dirtlawyer are attacking people. Reyk YO! 10:15, 16 January 2016 (UTC) Recant, Reyk: I attacked no one. And several of the "anti" comments are over the top, and their biases speak for themselves. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Childish", "stupid", "low-brow", and "abhorrent" are then personal attacks on the poor word. You owe it an apology. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:36, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- The difference is that we're describing a disliked terminology- you and Dirtlawyer are attacking people. Reyk YO! 10:15, 16 January 2016 (UTC) Recant, Reyk: I attacked no one. And several of the "anti" comments are over the top, and their biases speak for themselves. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Whereas all the unsourced pejoratives "stupid", "childish", "rubbish", "slang", "cheap", "abhorrence", "affectation", "jarring", "nonsense", "annoying stupid non-word", "low-brow"... that's not bad faith? That's some passionate invective to be using with zero sources' cited to support it. It's not totally implausible that nationalism is the real motive behind these unsourced attacks and insults, given that support for use of winningest has yielded a carpetbombing-level of citation overkill. It's almost like the less your sources support you, the louder you have to bleat. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, your attempts to construe this whole thing as an "anti-American" effort is a bad faith accusation, given that many of the editors with objections (including myself) are American. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2016 (UTC) I don't know if English is your first language or not, but I urge you to re-read my comment, and focus on the meaning of the words "some" and "small handful" in my comment. As for AGF, I don't need to make any assumptions; I only need to read the "anti" comments in this thread, several of which speak for themselves in terms of their own biases. As an American, you are certainly free to express your own preferences, as I and many others have already done. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dirtlawyer1. This is a tempest in a teapot. Let's move along. Montanabw 23:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Cbl62, Dirtlawyer1 and the fact that the proposed replacement language would sound absolutely ridiculous in the context of North American sports articles. Saying things like Joe Paterno is the "most victorious" coach in NCAA history sounds unbelievably pompous and affected. I really think we need to recognize this for what it is: a simple American English/British English issue, draw a line under it, and leave it at that. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's why I've been using "most successful X in Y by wins". This seems elegant and non-problematic. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, it sounds kind of awkward to me, but to each his own. . . Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's why I've been using "most successful X in Y by wins". This seems elegant and non-problematic. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose Winningest is a word used by all american sports fans, writers, and all media outlets as the most wins of whatever era, season, career, team, coach, or player. Success, victorious(which rarely hear), or best performing can be measured in many more different ways. Winningest is purely most wins in a given time period. Simple as that and is less confusing to the reader.Littlekelv (talk) 01:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dicklyon. It's enough to say that words recognisable by a majority of WP readers are preferred. This one clearly does not qualify as "preferred". Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - There is neither a need for MOS to pontificate on this issue, nor a pressing need to remove it from articles tout de suite. Editors who are doing the latter need to stop, as they do not have a consensus to do so. BMK (talk) 07:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose—but could someone tell me what it means? That's reason enough to avoid usage, I think. Tony (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Merriam Webster defines it as "having achieved the most wins <the winningest coach in football>" It's used primarily in sports (well, winning, so that figures)—Bagumba (talk) 08:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- It sometimes appears outside of sports, and occasionally with a different meaning, but not in a way one would expect to see in an encyclopaedia ("winningest smile", for example). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Merriam Webster defines it as "having achieved the most wins <the winningest coach in football>" It's used primarily in sports (well, winning, so that figures)—Bagumba (talk) 08:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Neutral
- Comment – It's not a word that needs to be covered by MoS. I think our guidelines here aim higher than that. It is American sports jargon, about as informal a word as one can find, and phrases such as "winningest coach" are best replaced by "most victorious coach" which has the same meaning without the grating jargon and is not the contorted "straining for formality" that WP:FORMAL advises against. "The coach who wins the most" or "coach with the highest number of wins" is straining. Perhaps we can throw this to another forum, such as one dealing with sports in general? Otherwise, we can handle usage on a case by case basis. --Pete (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Comment this all seems rather pointless and lame, Dennis has already argued against the use of this word on the relevant article talk page, and in ANI. It's a disputed word and there is a suitable alternative, why waste more time on this silly little word? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- It affects a wide swathe of articles, not just a single article. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 08:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see why this isn't covered adequately by ENGVAR. If I saw this word used in a BritEng article, I would kill it on sight. However, I understand completely that this abhorrence is accepted in USEng. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:57, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- The whole discussion stems from the removal of this term in one article, (as did too much time wasting on ANI) - the "use another word" comment applies just as much to other articles, as it does to the article in question. It's pretty much the perfect example of making a mountain out of a molehill. If it was a case of removing an American term and replacing it with a British term, I would agree with the comments regarding ENGVAR - however it isn't, it's removing an American informal term, and replacing it with a universally understood formal term, as per MOS:COMMONALITY and WP:FORMAL Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- oh. for anyone with doubts that it might not be an informal term: Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- While the word is vile, there's clear evidence that it is used broadly by US mainstream reliable publications. I can't really see how that can be disputed other than to offer a personal disliking of the term. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think that fact that it is used is not disputed. (well at least not by me) Usage does not equal formality, or suitability for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Also, the fact that there is an equally descriptive and unambiguous, less informal and more universally understood term available, makes it seem like a no-brainer to avoid "winningest" Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm an American, and I really don't buy ENGVAR arguments for the word. It's used in sportswriting in the United States, absolutely, I agree that is true. If people say it's not used in sportswriting in the UK, fine, I have no grounds on which to contradict that. But that doesn't make it an ENGVAR issue. We are not sportswriters; we are encyclopedists. A completely different linguistic register is called for here. --Trovatore (talk) 10:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- We are encyclopedists? You mean like Encyclopædia Britannica? The Columbia Encyclopedia? Encyclopedia Americana? We're supposed to act like encyclopedists, write like an encyclopedia, look like an encyclopedia, but not those encyclopedias? Because... reasons? What does 'encyclopedic' even mean if you're going to arbitrarily ignore actual encyclopedias whenever they don't serve your argument? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, could you provide cited examples of the usages in these publications, please? It occurs to me that "winningest" can be used appropriately in some antique cases which have nothing to do with modern English. --Pete (talk) 16:56, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I listed the article titles above. They're all modern, North American sports topics: Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Eddie Robinson, Michael Phelps. You want to see quotes from all 19 Brittanica articles, 6 Columbia articles and the Americana one too?
It's ironic to see this mountain of sources being challenged this way when those saying the word is a "childish invention", "nonsense", "not a word", etc. have not cited one single thing.
I access paywalled encyclopedias like these via my public library's online system. Other editors who want to verify these can use the Misplaced Pages:Reference desk and Misplaced Pages:The Misplaced Pages Library. I will gather quotes if need be, but keep in mind the policy of WP:AGF when it comes to offline or paywalled citations. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:31, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Here is the list of quotes and citations. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:19, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I listed the article titles above. They're all modern, North American sports topics: Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Eddie Robinson, Michael Phelps. You want to see quotes from all 19 Brittanica articles, 6 Columbia articles and the Americana one too?
- Dennis, could you provide cited examples of the usages in these publications, please? It occurs to me that "winningest" can be used appropriately in some antique cases which have nothing to do with modern English. --Pete (talk) 16:56, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- We are encyclopedists? You mean like Encyclopædia Britannica? The Columbia Encyclopedia? Encyclopedia Americana? We're supposed to act like encyclopedists, write like an encyclopedia, look like an encyclopedia, but not those encyclopedias? Because... reasons? What does 'encyclopedic' even mean if you're going to arbitrarily ignore actual encyclopedias whenever they don't serve your argument? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm an American, and I really don't buy ENGVAR arguments for the word. It's used in sportswriting in the United States, absolutely, I agree that is true. If people say it's not used in sportswriting in the UK, fine, I have no grounds on which to contradict that. But that doesn't make it an ENGVAR issue. We are not sportswriters; we are encyclopedists. A completely different linguistic register is called for here. --Trovatore (talk) 10:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think that fact that it is used is not disputed. (well at least not by me) Usage does not equal formality, or suitability for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Also, the fact that there is an equally descriptive and unambiguous, less informal and more universally understood term available, makes it seem like a no-brainer to avoid "winningest" Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- While the word is vile, there's clear evidence that it is used broadly by US mainstream reliable publications. I can't really see how that can be disputed other than to offer a personal disliking of the term. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Not the right question. All style and usage matters on WP are MOS matters in a general sense. But most potential ones are ones that MoS does not address in partiuclar, on purpose, because the consensus is to leave most usage matters up to editorial discretion, and to only be prescriptive/proscriptive about matters that cause problems. So, no, MOS does not need to specifically address this word. It doesn't even qualify for WP:Manual of Style/Words to watch. This is basically American sports jargon, and it's OK to use it in that context all other things being equal. We would never go to snooker articles and say "you can't refer to 'potting the black', but must instead write 'legally sent the black ball into a pocket'", or change all references to "the provenience of the artifact" (BrEng: "artefact") in archaeology articles to "the exact location of the discovery of the item in question". WP:JARGON is not license to exterminate all field-specific terminology. If people think that American sports articles have jargon in them understood fine by Americans who are into sports but not by all other readers, the solution is obviously to write a glossary article and link to it, just as I did with the snooker jargon, above. That said, "all other things being equal" doesn't appear to be satisfied. I agree with Dirtlawyer, Spacecowboy420, et al., that this term is amateurish and should probably be avoided. We just don't need a formal guideline saying so specifically about this word. WP:TONE and WP:COMMONSENSE cover this already, as a general principle. The fact that dictionaries descriptively include the word (usually labelled informal) does not magically make it encyclopedic. They all also include "ain't" and "motherfucker", after all, but we don't pepper our article with those character strings. As for the alleged ENGVAR matter, it's not one; no one is proposing replacing an American term with a British one or whatever, just replacing a silly and obtuse construction with a more encyclopedic one. "Winningest" isn't formal sports jargon, it's really sports slang, a "dude-bro" usage, and the fact that some sports journalists use it to appeal to that audience doesn't magically make it formal English. Sports journalism is very near the bottom of the totempole of writing quality in professionally produced journalism, slightly above tabloid gossip reporting and just below entertainment news. As yourself, would we ever parrot the slangish usage of people writing in those topical areas, e.g. "The leggy chanteuse was spied gnoshing with hunky star Foo Barly at NoHo's hottest new bistro ..." Of course not. There's no reason for us to import similar wanky wordplay from sports journalism. Seriously. Just go read the sports section of any major newspaper for five minutes and try to count the number of cases of emotive slangy gibberish WP would never use. But that has nothing to do with this one particular word. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 03:55, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's "not the right question" to completely resolve this issue, but it seemed like a good intermediate step to determine whether MOS needed changing, or if it was sufficient to apply existing guidelines. It seems like the consensus is the latter, to use existing guidelines. The next step would be to present the relevant guidelines that have been argued, and see if there is a consensus on how they should be applied to winningest.—Bagumba (talk) 05:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well, the question was whether the MOS needed changing to address the word "winningest". That's a completely different question from whether the MOS needs changing to address the question of informal or colloquial words in general. My view is that the word "winningest" does not need to be discussed at the MOS, and that was the basis on which I responded to the poll. You can't infer from that that existing guidelines are sufficient, just that there's a consensus not to make changes specifically for this individual word. --Trovatore (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- The intent was to discuss the case of winningest, which was free to morph into a general discussion of winningest-like words, but it's possible some took the narrower view of the specific word only. Hindsight is 20/20. At any rate, it was a starting point, and another thread has already started.—Bagumba (talk) 22:59, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well, the question was whether the MOS needed changing to address the word "winningest". That's a completely different question from whether the MOS needs changing to address the question of informal or colloquial words in general. My view is that the word "winningest" does not need to be discussed at the MOS, and that was the basis on which I responded to the poll. You can't infer from that that existing guidelines are sufficient, just that there's a consensus not to make changes specifically for this individual word. --Trovatore (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's "not the right question" to completely resolve this issue, but it seemed like a good intermediate step to determine whether MOS needed changing, or if it was sufficient to apply existing guidelines. It seems like the consensus is the latter, to use existing guidelines. The next step would be to present the relevant guidelines that have been argued, and see if there is a consensus on how they should be applied to winningest.—Bagumba (talk) 05:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion
Some who have acknowledged MOS:ENGVAR have brought up MOS:COMMONALITY. However, MOS:TIES states: "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the English of that nation." This would apply to subjects about North American sports, but perhaps less for a topic like Harley Davidson, an American-based company whose products are used worldwide. In American English, "most victorious" sounds decidedly British in relation to sports. There might be other alternatives, but that isn't it.—Bagumba (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just try to look at things from the perspective of the reader and understand that different articles attract different readers. Doing so, I think you have a good point, Bagumba. An American football article is unlikely to be read by many users of non-American English. While a Harley article (despite being an American company) has far more international appeal. I do however, have no opinion regarding "victorious" sounding British. It sounds pompous - agreed and Brits are known for being pompous at times. "Prize-winning" ? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't an issue about "American English" -- in fact, most American English speakers are unaware of this term. It's argot used by a very small subsection of AmE speakers. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 09:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on American English, I wouldn't know. Even more reason not to use it. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- We are talking about it's use in AE sports articles. WP:AUDIENCE advises: "When jargon is used in an article, a brief explanation should be given within the article." Personally, I'd use a more verbose phrasing in the lead, but don't see a problem using winningest in the body if the topic was already introduced in the lead and context is provided in the body e.g. "the winningest coach in Acme history with 550 career wins". Not to discourage the efforts of laypeople, but it's problematic in this specific case if a person unfamiliar with American sports doesn't collaborate with a domain expert to avoid replacing a single-word with a clumsy phrase.—Bagumba (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sportswriters have a completely different aim than we do. Their prose is meant to be, first and foremost, entertaining. They use informal terminology freely, "breezily" you might say. I am not criticizing; those are the conventions of the genre and what the readers expect and pay for.
- The conventions of encyclopedic writing are completely different. While it's certainly a virtue for the writing to be interesting, it is not primarily aimed at entertainment, but at providing reference information. The writing is expected to be in a very high register; I think probably the only higher registers are formal society announcements and diplomatic communications.
- So our sources may well use such terms, but we have to take into account how the nature of the sources differs from our nature. A word that is appropriate for a sports column, even in the New York Times, may not be appropriate (except maybe in a quotation) in Misplaced Pages. --Trovatore (talk) 10:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Good point. There is also the context of usage. Headlines are a prime example. Language pared down to its most succinct and eye-catching. "Sticks nix hick pix" might be a great headline but appalling English. Sports articles are often one step up, dealing with repetitive descriptions of similar events; jargon and shorthand are used to avoid boring the regular reader who doesn't want shining prose or wordy explanations, just the facts, names and numbers. Some of these things are all but unreadable if you know nothing of the sport or its conventions. Americans reading about a ODI, for example. Without pictures, most would have no idea of which sport was even being played. (Cricket, for the seppos here.) A baseball article may be just perfect for USA Today, but jarringly inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. --Pete (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- You keep using terms like "tabloid" and examples like USA Today for vulgar writing. What is a proper model? You reject the New York Times and Encyclopedia Brittanica. What's left? I don't see how you can argue "that's good enough for X, but we have higher standards!" if you won't tell us where you're getting these standards. You seem to think everything from the Daily Mirror to the Wall Street Journal is tabloid trash. What publications do you respect? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, please don't cram words into my mouth based on what you think I think. It is clear to me that either you don't have a clue, or are being deliberately obtuse. Either way, I reject your wild surmises above. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 09:17, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's not being obtuse. You talk of "context of usage", and have seen the evidence from Britannica et. al. You can't pretend the evidence away, so address it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:25, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, please don't cram words into my mouth based on what you think I think. It is clear to me that either you don't have a clue, or are being deliberately obtuse. Either way, I reject your wild surmises above. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 09:17, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- You keep using terms like "tabloid" and examples like USA Today for vulgar writing. What is a proper model? You reject the New York Times and Encyclopedia Brittanica. What's left? I don't see how you can argue "that's good enough for X, but we have higher standards!" if you won't tell us where you're getting these standards. You seem to think everything from the Daily Mirror to the Wall Street Journal is tabloid trash. What publications do you respect? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Good point. There is also the context of usage. Headlines are a prime example. Language pared down to its most succinct and eye-catching. "Sticks nix hick pix" might be a great headline but appalling English. Sports articles are often one step up, dealing with repetitive descriptions of similar events; jargon and shorthand are used to avoid boring the regular reader who doesn't want shining prose or wordy explanations, just the facts, names and numbers. Some of these things are all but unreadable if you know nothing of the sport or its conventions. Americans reading about a ODI, for example. Without pictures, most would have no idea of which sport was even being played. (Cricket, for the seppos here.) A baseball article may be just perfect for USA Today, but jarringly inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. --Pete (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- We are talking about it's use in AE sports articles. WP:AUDIENCE advises: "When jargon is used in an article, a brief explanation should be given within the article." Personally, I'd use a more verbose phrasing in the lead, but don't see a problem using winningest in the body if the topic was already introduced in the lead and context is provided in the body e.g. "the winningest coach in Acme history with 550 career wins". Not to discourage the efforts of laypeople, but it's problematic in this specific case if a person unfamiliar with American sports doesn't collaborate with a domain expert to avoid replacing a single-word with a clumsy phrase.—Bagumba (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on American English, I wouldn't know. Even more reason not to use it. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Does Misplaced Pages want to cater to the lowest common denominator? If so, use "winningest" and while we're at it, we might as well recommend "kicked their ass" and "they sucked" for inclusion on sports articles. I would prefer to let the tabloid fed masses stick to their tabloid sources, and encourage those who are willing to learn a little to come to wikipedia. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- If you think that "winningest" is in the same register as "kicked their ass" then perhaps you should put a few more hours into your ESL classes. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- If you think that this is the place for personal attacks, then perhaps you should be editing reddit, rather than wikipedia. "winningest" and "kicked their ass" are both informal, ugly, lowbrow terms. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- One is a term with established usage in a large number of mainstream newssources, the other is vulgarity from the bleachers. One of us can tell the difference, the other cannot. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- If you think that this is the place for personal attacks, then perhaps you should be editing reddit, rather than wikipedia. "winningest" and "kicked their ass" are both informal, ugly, lowbrow terms. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- If you think that "winningest" is in the same register as "kicked their ass" then perhaps you should put a few more hours into your ESL classes. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Or perhaps one of us is aware of the phrase "thin end of the wedge" and the other is not. Use in tabloid news sources doesn't mean it's formal or suitable. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 12:22, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- You apparently think that "spaces" jibe makes you look the more intelligent. Then you follow up calling the NYT and Encylcopaedia Britannica "tabloids". I think we've heard enough from you. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't an issue about "American English" -- in fact, most American English speakers are unaware of this term. It's argot used by a very small subsection of AmE speakers. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 09:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
It seems surprising that the MOS doesn't seem to actually state anything like "Use formal language rather than informal". It does say (under "Vocabulary") Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality, that are unnecessarily regional, or that are not widely accepted.
, of which the last element seems a good reason not to use "Winningest". There's also, under "Opportunites for Commonality", the wording Universally used terms are often preferable to less widely distributed terms
, and as a Brit I'd certainly never heard of "Winningest", which sounds like a childish invention. Perhaps the MOS should start with a single paragraph defining the style it's aiming at: Clear above all; unlikely to be misunderstood by, or to antagonise, users of any variety of English; formal enough for a serious encyclopedia but not unnecessarily so; avoiding where possible, especially in the lead section, the use of jargon, technical language, regional terms, etc ...". It would be a challenge, but we seem to have a large collection of rules about specific elements of style but without an overall philosophy to which questions about individual words or other detailed issues not explicitly covered could be referred. PamD 11:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's too fine-grained for a MOS rule, and writing in definitions of acceptable windows on the formality–informatlity spectrum would be cumbersome and too restrictive. However, if encountering this tinsle made-up word in an article, I'd zap it. A major argument against its use is that if you're unfamiliar with it, the meaning is unclear. Trovatore: I agree that we should resist specious categorising into ENGVAR. TRM says: "While the word is vile, there's clear evidence that it is used broadly by US mainstream reliable publications." Indeed. We don't have to sink to the lowest level, do we? Tony (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- In addition to The New York Times, the word is also used, in articles about American sports, by the Columbia Encyclopedia, Encyclopædia Britannica, and Encyclopedia Americana. Accordingly, the contention that the use of the word would see us "sink to the lowest level" is baffling given its widespread use, including other major encyclopedias. Cbl62 (talk) 16:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- RE: "...but perhaps less for a topic like Harley Davidson, an American-based company whose products are used worldwide." I just want to point out that the Harley-Davidson XR-750 is strictly a North American racing motorcycle; it participates only in AMA Flat Track racing because of peculiarities int the rules that favor a peculiar design. The road racing version only competes in the US. The whole history and existence of the bike revolves around the politics US-made vs imported motorcycle brands. Flat track in Europe uses all sorts of other off-road bikes but never XR-750s because the XR-750 is too technologically primitive. While Harleys might be worldwide products, the XR-750 thoroughly American. The bikes other claim to fame is its use by Evel Knievel and Bubba Blackwell, who, well, literally dress in American flags. The XR-750 is a highly national topic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Primitive", you say. I think that's a pretty good description of the word as well, and why it is not seen in regular text, just tabloid sports articles. Oh yeah, and, as you say without giving an example, the Britannica. I like to think we have a better encyclopaedia right here - we don't have to drop our standards. --Pete (talk) 17:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages's core policy of verifiability is the foundation that these "standards" rest on. You're tossing verifiability out the window and replacing it with upvoting. If enough editors say "that's stupid", you want those votes to trump the highest-quality sources we have. The NYT and Brittanica are now "tabloids" and H.W. Fowler is nobody to you. You've turned Misplaced Pages upside down. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Do tell. If one wants sources for opinions that "winningest" is a hideous word, they are not difficult to find.
- "Winningest may well be a real word (or at least in the US), as in “winning most often” but is a very ugly expression."
- "I guess it's real, but frankly I find that appalling in itself."
- in "A Dictionary of Despicable Words"
- "Winningest" is as much a word as "sdgklgjrw9svd".
- "Winningest. Stupidest and worst word ever"
- The list goes on and on. That's just for combining the word with "appalling" and "awful". When I looked at "atrocious", I found this gem: "Horrible horrible lazy word, borne of sports journo-jock stupidity. I guess the English language is the “losingest” in all this… Pathetic". People who like words tend to hate this one. Easily verified. --Pete (talk) 17:48, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Do tell. If one wants sources for opinions that "winningest" is a hideous word, they are not difficult to find.
- Misplaced Pages's core policy of verifiability is the foundation that these "standards" rest on. You're tossing verifiability out the window and replacing it with upvoting. If enough editors say "that's stupid", you want those votes to trump the highest-quality sources we have. The NYT and Brittanica are now "tabloids" and H.W. Fowler is nobody to you. You've turned Misplaced Pages upside down. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Primitive", you say. I think that's a pretty good description of the word as well, and why it is not seen in regular text, just tabloid sports articles. Oh yeah, and, as you say without giving an example, the Britannica. I like to think we have a better encyclopaedia right here - we don't have to drop our standards. --Pete (talk) 17:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK, so you've found 5 bloggers or website posters who don't like the word. Contrast those with Encyclopedia Britannica, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Columbia Encyclopedia, and dozens more mainstream sources (not blogs) which universally use the word and deem it perfectly appropriate in American sporting contexts. I would venture to say that the latter group is a better model for Misplaced Pages than 5 bloggers. Cbl62 (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- One of the blogs you cite simply offers the blogger's view that he finds these words disgusting: nugget, dilate, secretion, fondle, dangle, waft, chunks, lesion, sopping, ligament, and soiled. Here, here, let's just ban all these words on the ground that they are considered disgusting to the ear of an anonymous blogger. Cbl62 (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have no idea what to make of this. Pete/Skyring dismissively says "that might be good enough for USA Today", but when asked for reliable sources, we get a bunch of bloggers that would never be citable. Fowler's disagrees with your august bloggers. This whole debate is not about one word, it's about whether we respect Misplaced Pages's core policy of verifiability or we use crowdsourcing and upvoting. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm off for more travel, so I don't have time. The examples above were a few from what is a huge collection of people expressing their dislike of that word. If I looked longer and harder I'd find columnists from major respected outlets in the list. As you can, if you look. Cheers, mate. --Pete (talk) 19:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have no idea what to make of this. Pete/Skyring dismissively says "that might be good enough for USA Today", but when asked for reliable sources, we get a bunch of bloggers that would never be citable. Fowler's disagrees with your august bloggers. This whole debate is not about one word, it's about whether we respect Misplaced Pages's core policy of verifiability or we use crowdsourcing and upvoting. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- One of the blogs you cite simply offers the blogger's view that he finds these words disgusting: nugget, dilate, secretion, fondle, dangle, waft, chunks, lesion, sopping, ligament, and soiled. Here, here, let's just ban all these words on the ground that they are considered disgusting to the ear of an anonymous blogger. Cbl62 (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK, so you've found 5 bloggers or website posters who don't like the word. Contrast those with Encyclopedia Britannica, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Columbia Encyclopedia, and dozens more mainstream sources (not blogs) which universally use the word and deem it perfectly appropriate in American sporting contexts. I would venture to say that the latter group is a better model for Misplaced Pages than 5 bloggers. Cbl62 (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- That Skyring/Pete would resort to the opinion of a blogger who would will away "dilate" confirms a cognitive dissonance that will not be penetrated, but for the benefit of the rest of us, here are samples from five of 23 hits at Encyclopaedia Britannica (which is paywalled only after the first hundred bytes):
- Bobby Bowden, in full Robert Cleckler Bowden (born November 8, 1929, Birmingham, Alabama, U.S.), American collegiate gridiron football coach who was one of the winningest coaches in National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) history.
- Martin Brodeur, (born May 6, 1972, Montreal, Quebec, Canada), Canadian ice hockey player who is the all-time winningest goaltender in the National Hockey League (NHL) with 691 career victories.
- Pat Summitt, née Patricia Head (born June 14, 1952, Henrietta, Tennessee, U.S.), American collegiate women’s basketball coach at the University of Tennessee (1974–2012) who was the winningest coach in the history of National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) basketball.
- Kay Yow, (born March 14, 1942, Gibsonville, N.C.—died Jan. 24, 2009, Cary, N.C.), American basketball coach who was a legendary figure in women’s college basketball who served (1975–2009) as the head coach at North Carolina State University and became one of the winningest coaches in National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Division I history.
- Bobby Allison, byname of Robert Arthur Allison (born December 3, 1937, Miami, Florida, U.S.), American stock-car racer who was one of the winningest drivers in National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) history and ...
- Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 20:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've started Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/List of winningest citations so this page doesn't get too unweildy. Note that right at the top, as a gift and evidence of good faith, I'm sharing the one (1) and only reliable source that opposes using winningest, the AP Stylebook. For me, again, this a about verifiablity, and that means trusting reliable sources and ignoring opinion. I think it would be extremely disingenuous for anyone to seize on this single AP Stylebook citation and choose to ignore the obvious acceptance of the word at the NYT and many other prestige news media, as well as Fowler's and many encyclopedias. More to come. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- The AP Stylebook is odd in that AP articles routinely use the term at issue. Is the referenced Stylebook older? Cbl62 (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's "from Mount Pleasant, Iowa on Jun 07, 2014", so the AP was using the word both before and after this. It appears the editor was answering questions from the general public. Apparently the Stylebook itself doesn't mention winningest, even if the Q&A editor here dislikes the word. I could add a long list of books of new words and slang that don't mention winningest, indicating that the "controversy" or claimed opposition to this word doesn't exist beyond the handful of non-reliable bloggers cited. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:32, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- The AP Stylebook is odd in that AP articles routinely use the term at issue. Is the referenced Stylebook older? Cbl62 (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've started Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/List of winningest citations so this page doesn't get too unweildy. Note that right at the top, as a gift and evidence of good faith, I'm sharing the one (1) and only reliable source that opposes using winningest, the AP Stylebook. For me, again, this a about verifiablity, and that means trusting reliable sources and ignoring opinion. I think it would be extremely disingenuous for anyone to seize on this single AP Stylebook citation and choose to ignore the obvious acceptance of the word at the NYT and many other prestige news media, as well as Fowler's and many encyclopedias. More to come. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have to admit I am a little baffled by all this discussion. On a word according to America's best-selling dictionary Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary eleventh edition an encyclopedia Britannica company page 1436 has only been around since 1972. Other sources also confirm early 70's. And if this discussion confirms nothing else it does confirm how controversial this word is. By contrast the very definition in some dictionary's winningest as More successful or winning as victory or superiority in a contest or competition; victorious. And victorious has been around since 14c used all around the world. But surly even if not this word we could come up with something better than winningest. A 44 year old informal American only word that looks as if it could be a misspelling or a made up word to convey the information to the world. 72bikers (talk) 06:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/List of winningest citations#Other. Zero independent sources have verified that the term is controversial. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- A 44 year old informal American only word—so how old does a word have to be before you'll persoanlly allow its use? We have to know so we can get on top of purging Misplaced Pages for you of all those that are younger. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:14, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just point out some simple facts and your response is sarcasm nice. And how is this word not controversial? 72bikers (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- If "controversial" equals "a handful of people squawking about a word they don't like", then the threshold for "controversial" is so low that it will guarantee deadlock on any word anyone ever disagrees with. In the real world, there's no controversy. By the way, you haven't answered the question: how long does a word have to exist before you give it your personal stamp of approval? You did, after all, make a great big stink about how "young" it is. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:09, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- They are not simple facts. They are blatant falsehoods. You've been given ample independent sources that show that winningest appeared spelled "winningst" in 1647 in The False One . By 1804, the spelling was updated to winningest , and the word appeared in several other 19th century publications. In 1922, the first edition of the prominent usage guide Fowler's asserts unequivocally that winningest is acceptable . The modern American English sports usage dates at least as far back as 1948.
And of course, even if the earliest use of this word were 1972, that would not be a valid argument against it. Encyclopedic articles are filled with standard and even formal English words whose coinage, or current usage, is far more recent than that. Ample evidence has been given that colloquial and informal English is often used in Misplaced Pages's best content, and prestigious encyclopedias. It's nonsensical on every level. This is now the third or forth time you've been handed these verifiable facts, yet for some reason you keep repeating the same falsehoods.
Google nGrams shows that the prominence and usage of winningest has only increased, while the archaic-sounding "most victorious" has faded into obsolescence. These are all verifiable facts. We all try to assume good faith and give your point of view due regard, but there's a limit to that; competence is required if you want to be taken seriously. The Snowball clause exists to tell those pushing hopelessly misguided falsehoods and mangled logic that they need to step back and defer to those who have a grasp of the facts and sound reasoning behind them. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- My references are not falsehoods . You yourself have even chosen to use one. Is it not a contradiction to prop one reference up when it suits you to then throw it under the bus when it does not? Yours on the other hand are republication from the 2000's that give no actual reference to the date of the word or some obscure misspelled reference are full of falsehoods. And I only repeat these fact because you selectively choose to call them falsehoods. Pushing hopelessly misguided opinions and falsehoods and mangled logic that they need to step back and defer to those who have a grasp of the facts. You are clearly to emotionally involved to see things clearly your personal attacks on other editor is evidence of that. and it is not just on the date of the word. But also it is not precise in the context it is used. Did it win races or was it prize money as the term is used in gambling or in just the winning of money. On the other hand most successful or victorious are used to define this word in dictionaries. Do you claim this is a falsehood? But even if not these words there surely are other words or groups of words that can convey the information without looking like some misspelling or made ups word. surely this heated debate is enough evidence to the fact on its own that this word is controversial let alone other sources. and I see this was brought up back in 2011 as well. So please no more of just your references are factual. You are just giving weight to this statement. However, critics argue Misplaced Pages exhibits systemic bias, and its group dynamics hinder its goals. Many academics, historians, teachers, and journalists reject Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, primarily for being a mixture of truths, half truths, and some falsehoods, and that as a resource about many controversial topics, is notoriously subject to manipulation and spin 72bikers (talk) 23:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- You are clearly to emotionally involved—if only you could see how hysterically grasping your wall of text looks to others. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- And yet another personal attack lol. Way to look impartial or not to emotional involved your self. This is not controversial how? 72bikers (talk) 23:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Personal attack" my ass—the personal attack was accusing another editor of being "too emotionally involved". An issue doesn't become "controversial" just by squawking louder than others about it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- You have some very strange logic. You act like a child claiming I am rubber you are glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you LOL!!! 72bikers (talk) 01:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- You don't appear to comprehend the words you use. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- And yet again another personal attack nice. Is this the sum of your argument to just personally attack someone who disagrees with you? This the best you can come up with. And you claim to not comprehend this really? 72bikers (talk) 19:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- If you're going to spout utter nonsense, like denying the reality of links to books scanned at Google Books, then you're going to have to get used to having your ass handed to you. There's a limit to how gentle and diplomatic anyone can be when you force them to point out that your claims fly in the face of verifiable fact. Competence is required. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:49, 21 January 2016
- And again another personal attack nice. This seem to be the one thing you are good at no? If truly you are able to read those were republished in the 2000's. Is then Merriam-Webster's not to believed along with other dictionaries? It's interesting that you choose to include some of the information from this source on your little list but exclude the 1972 from this source why? You tout it's parent company as one to emulate but willfully just pick and choose witch of the information you like. Have you read what has been written about wiki I believe they had you in mind. However, critics argue Misplaced Pages exhibits systemic bias, and its group dynamics hinder its goals. Many academics, historians, teachers, and journalists reject Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, primarily for being a mixture of truths, half truths, and some falsehoods, and that as a resource about many controversial topics, is notoriously subject to manipulation and spin 72bikers (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- You keep whipping out this "1972" thing, but refuse to answer why that date should have any relevance. I believe this is the third time I've pressed you on this. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:09, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have already stated why. And I feel no obligation to repeat myself to someone who has only made rude and uncivil comment in a effort to bait me. I will give you this if you dispute this simple fact how can you be trusted on anything else. I will also invite you to reread this. However, critics argue Misplaced Pages exhibits systemic bias, and its group dynamics hinder its goals. Many academics, historians, teachers, and journalists reject Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, primarily for being a mixture of truths, half truths, and some falsehoods, and that as a resource about many controversial topics, is notoriously subject to manipulation and spin. 72bikers (talk) 23:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- You have nowhere stated why—you continue to dodge the question and spam us with boldface. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, not that facts matter to you, but the 1972 date is objectively inaccurate—there are even books with "winningest" in the title earlier than that date: Oswald Jacoby's Win At Bridge with Oswald Jacoby, America's Winningest Bridge Champion (1963) and Roger Worsley's Mesa's Power Attack: Football's Winningest Offense (1967). Add to that all the magazine and newspaper articles that predate those books ... and novels, such as Thomas Nelson Page' Gordon Keith (1903) which uses the word ... not that it makes any difference, as even if it were accurate, the 1972 date would've been a ludricous reason to reject the word. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:12, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Winningest is a perfectly cromulent word. There is no dispute. It is in current usage in sports articles. But that is beside the point. We can find any number of words that are in current use but are regarded as informal or slang. I would be more persuaded by sources from grammar or English language forums that list winningest as a word holding some gravitas. But none have been presented. --Pete (talk) 08:56, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Pete: You've missed the context—72bikers continues to repeat that MW claims the word dates to 1972. My response takes to task (a) the embarassing idea that a 44-year-old idea can't be legit; and (b) the fact that MW is very, verry wrong. I see, however, that this discussion is not the first place 72bikers has been told this—somebody showed him at ANI, and he ignored it there, too. Facts are bunk, apparently. As for "a word holding some gravitas"—you've been shown a whole subpage full of examples. Pretending they don't exist only reflects badly on you and your crew. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand, CT. I am in perfect agreement with you that the word is in current use, and many examples have been given. Mainly in sports articles, as I said. But there is no source stating that "winningest" holds the same weight, gravitas, or formality as (say) "victorious" or "successful". If you can find one, could you quote it, please? --Pete (talk) 11:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- If your argument is that a source must exist explicitly stating "winningest" holds the same weight, gravitas, or formality as (say) "victorious" or "successful", then you have no argument. The evidence demonstrates beyond any doubt that the word is used in a large number of respected, mainstream publications in articles with a fully formal tone. We are not beholden to the hoops you'd have us jump through. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- You repeat yourself. Nobody doubts that the word is used. But it appears to be American sports jargon. If you say that it is a word of formal nature in general circulation because it appears in a headline of a publication that also has respected opinions on other subjects, movies for example, or finance, or language, then you are awry in your reasoning. No authority supports the claim you make. Again I ask you to back up your statement. --Pete (talk) 17:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- If your argument is that a source must exist explicitly stating "winningest" holds the same weight, gravitas, or formality as (say) "victorious" or "successful", then you have no argument. The evidence demonstrates beyond any doubt that the word is used in a large number of respected, mainstream publications in articles with a fully formal tone. We are not beholden to the hoops you'd have us jump through. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand, CT. I am in perfect agreement with you that the word is in current use, and many examples have been given. Mainly in sports articles, as I said. But there is no source stating that "winningest" holds the same weight, gravitas, or formality as (say) "victorious" or "successful". If you can find one, could you quote it, please? --Pete (talk) 11:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Pete: You've missed the context—72bikers continues to repeat that MW claims the word dates to 1972. My response takes to task (a) the embarassing idea that a 44-year-old idea can't be legit; and (b) the fact that MW is very, verry wrong. I see, however, that this discussion is not the first place 72bikers has been told this—somebody showed him at ANI, and he ignored it there, too. Facts are bunk, apparently. As for "a word holding some gravitas"—you've been shown a whole subpage full of examples. Pretending they don't exist only reflects badly on you and your crew. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Winningest is a perfectly cromulent word. There is no dispute. It is in current usage in sports articles. But that is beside the point. We can find any number of words that are in current use but are regarded as informal or slang. I would be more persuaded by sources from grammar or English language forums that list winningest as a word holding some gravitas. But none have been presented. --Pete (talk) 08:56, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, not that facts matter to you, but the 1972 date is objectively inaccurate—there are even books with "winningest" in the title earlier than that date: Oswald Jacoby's Win At Bridge with Oswald Jacoby, America's Winningest Bridge Champion (1963) and Roger Worsley's Mesa's Power Attack: Football's Winningest Offense (1967). Add to that all the magazine and newspaper articles that predate those books ... and novels, such as Thomas Nelson Page' Gordon Keith (1903) which uses the word ... not that it makes any difference, as even if it were accurate, the 1972 date would've been a ludricous reason to reject the word. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:12, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- You have nowhere stated why—you continue to dodge the question and spam us with boldface. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have to admit I am a little baffled by all this discussion. On a word according to America's best-selling dictionary Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary eleventh edition an encyclopedia Britannica company page 1436 has only been around since 1972. Other sources also confirm early 70's. And if this discussion confirms nothing else it does confirm how controversial this word is. By contrast the very definition in some dictionary's winningest as More successful or winning as victory or superiority in a contest or competition; victorious. And victorious has been around since 14c used all around the world. But surly even if not this word we could come up with something better than winningest. A 44 year old informal American only word that looks as if it could be a misspelling or a made up word to convey the information to the world. 72bikers (talk) 06:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
You're grasping. All evidence is present, but you don't like it. Go jump through your own hoops. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Your theories are just one sided opinions. You tout one reference when it suits you to be one to emulate. Then throw it under the bus when it does nothing to help your opinions. Then go on to attack other editors with increasingly uncivil behavior all the while acting like your better than others. With ever bolder claims that the word is older and older and now to the word being formal. I am interested to see what you come up with next LOL. Once again I invite you to read what has been written about wiki and its editors. Maybe this will bring you back to reality and not having you thinking you are writing for britannica encyclopedia or whatever delusions you are under. However, critics argue Misplaced Pages exhibits systemic bias, and its group dynamics hinder its goals. Many academics, historians, teachers, and journalists reject Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, primarily for being a mixture of truths, half truths, and some falsehoods, and that as a resource about many controversial topics, is notoriously subject to manipulation and spin 72bikers (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Would it help to read what Patricia T. O'Conner, NYT On Language columnist, author of Woe Is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English (Riverhead, 3rd ed., 2010, ISBN 978-1-57322-331-7), Origins of the Specious Myths and Misconceptions of the English Language, and other books, wrote about this in 2013 and in 2007 about winningest? "...in fact it's a legitimate word... The adjective 'winningest' has been around for hundreds of years, a lot longer than Richard Petty, but it meant the most alluring or attractive when the word first showed up in the 1600s... Our searches of Google databases indicate that the adjective “winningest” took on its sporting sense in the mid-20th century... We found thousands of other examples of 'winningest' used this way over the centuries in books, plays, newspapers, magazines, and so on." Pretty much the same things we've been trying to tell you. It's a real word, it's a normal word, it's a perfectly acceptable word.
I don't really see how it helps you at all to choose Merriam-Webster above all other sources; that means you're going to ignore all the ones saying it's colloquial or informal English, and insist that, per Merriam-Webster, winningest is standard English. Who cares if they think it was first used in 1972? There's no rule against words made in 1972, or any other particular year. If Webster's says it's standard English, so that settles it, right? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Look as you are trying to correlate the legitimacy of this word by its date . I want to point out from the few I have looked at your references have all been republications. Is it not more likely that these are just latter editions witch means they would have been altered at some point with each edition. Than trying to state Merriam-Webster witch is a highly reputable source got it wrong as well as other dictionaries. This would make you guilty of manipulation and spin to suit your argument. And now to your claim that the word is formal is just laughable. Merriam-Webster and other dictionaries all state the word is informal. I would again encourage you to read this I don't think it is sinking in. However, critics argue Misplaced Pages exhibits systemic bias, and its group dynamics hinder its goals. Many academics, historians, teachers, and journalists reject Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, primarily for being a mixture of truths, half truths, and some falsehoods, and that as a resource about many controversial topics, is notoriously subject to manipulation and spin 72bikers (talk) 02:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- If any other editors think there's any merit to 72biker's unique theories and conjectures, and any need to respond further, please say so. If not, I don't think there's any need to go on refuting this stuff. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:15, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- They don't even rise to "unique theory" status—they are incoherent babbling at this point, padding with endlessly repeated bold spam. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- If any other editors think there's any merit to 72biker's unique theories and conjectures, and any need to respond further, please say so. If not, I don't think there's any need to go on refuting this stuff. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:15, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Would it help to read what Patricia T. O'Conner, NYT On Language columnist, author of Woe Is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English (Riverhead, 3rd ed., 2010, ISBN 978-1-57322-331-7), Origins of the Specious Myths and Misconceptions of the English Language, and other books, wrote about this in 2013 and in 2007 about winningest? "...in fact it's a legitimate word... The adjective 'winningest' has been around for hundreds of years, a lot longer than Richard Petty, but it meant the most alluring or attractive when the word first showed up in the 1600s... Our searches of Google databases indicate that the adjective “winningest” took on its sporting sense in the mid-20th century... We found thousands of other examples of 'winningest' used this way over the centuries in books, plays, newspapers, magazines, and so on." Pretty much the same things we've been trying to tell you. It's a real word, it's a normal word, it's a perfectly acceptable word.
References
- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/winningest
- http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/winningest
- https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=4XycAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA1655&lpg=PA1655&dq=winningest+informal&source=bl&ots=S35M7E7cqP&sig=__8Pk6JrVTp0E41b0n2dew_P3-4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix4qLbu6vKAhVFlZQKHbzpCEAQ6AEIRzAI#v=onepage&q=winningest%20informal&f=false
- https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=winningest
- http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/winningest/
- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/winningest/
Summarizing issues raised
In an effort to make progress, I suggest that we itemize what the issues are, putting aside for the moment whether you personally believe they are relevant. Once the talking points are finalized, we should limit our discussion to these points when considering winningest or its alternatives. Here is an initial attempt to summarize the key guidelines and essays cited to date, with relevant quotes from each:
- Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style guideline
- Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Contested vocabulary:
- "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality, that are unnecessarily regional, or that are not widely accepted."
- MOS:ENGVAR
- "The English Misplaced Pages prefers no major national variety of the language over any other."
- MOS:COMMONALITY
- "Misplaced Pages tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English.""
- "Terms that differ between varieties of English, or that have divergent meanings, may be glossed to prevent confusion, for example, the trunk (American English) or boot (British English) of a car"
- MOS:TIES
- "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the English of that nation."
- WP:RETAIN
- "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary."
- MOS:JARGON:
- "Some topics are intrinsically technical, but editors should try to make them understandable to as many readers as possible."
- "Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader when more common alternatives will do."
- WP:W2W
- "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages, but certain expressions should be used with caution, because they may introduce bias."
- "For example, some words have specific technical meanings in some contexts and are acceptable in those contexts (e.g. "claim" in law). "
- "What matters is that articles should be well-written and consistent with the core content policies—Neutral point of view, No original research, and Verifiability."
- WP:COMMONSENSE
- "Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing."
- External style guides: "Wikipedians are encouraged to familiarize themselves with other guides to style and usage, which may cover details not included in this Manual of Style."
- WP:FORMAL
- "Misplaced Pages articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone."
- WP:AUDIENCE:
- "Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn."
- Misplaced Pages:Consensus policy
- "Consensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines."
- WP:TALKDONTREVERT:
- "The arguments 'I just don't like it' and 'I just like it' usually carry no weight whatsoever."
- Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions information page
- "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but neither is it determined by the closer's own views about what is the most appropriate policy. The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue."
Feel free to identify any remaining quotes from a policy, guideline, or essay that you wish to be considered. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 09:02, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- These talking points seem adequate to me. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 09:06, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- A few of those points contradict each other, but it's a fair representation. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I added a couple relevant points about personal opinion, vs. arguments based on policy and sources. Several editors have been asked to explain what we should base the MOS on, and what 'encyclopedic' means, if they are unwilling to be guided by the models of Featured Articles, major encyclopedias and prestigious media, and reputable style and usage guides. These are the vital questions, far more critical than this one word winningest, and the answer so far has been *crickets*. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- For reference, here are Dennis' points he added above to my comments. I don't strongly object to his points for consideration, so I'll ignore the restrictions on editing other's comments in this case to make it simpler to build the list. Yanping Nora Soong or Spacecowboy420 can feel free to WP:REFACTOR if they prefer those comments are not commingled.—Bagumba (talk) 19:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- The community of editors decides the style. There is no outside agency or supervising committee. It is all done by consensus of those editors interested enough in the topic of style. It is therefore appropriate to build any lists of policy references etc. in a coöperative fashion —no one editor has the final say. --Pete (talk) 08:47, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- For reference, here are Dennis' points he added above to my comments. I don't strongly object to his points for consideration, so I'll ignore the restrictions on editing other's comments in this case to make it simpler to build the list. Yanping Nora Soong or Spacecowboy420 can feel free to WP:REFACTOR if they prefer those comments are not commingled.—Bagumba (talk) 19:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Analysis of issues
Analysis by User:Reyk
Let's go through these one by one.
| Statement | Summary | Verdict |
|---|---|---|
| "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality, that are unnecessarily regional, or that are not widely accepted." | "Winningest" is a regional (North America) term, and is clearly not widely accepted. Alternatives exist that do not "strain for formality" |  Do not use "winningest"
|
| "The English Misplaced Pages prefers no major national variety of the language over any other." | American English does not take precedence over e.g., UK English, and vice versa |  Neutral
|
| "Misplaced Pages tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English." | Alternatives exist that are common to all English speakers | Do not use "winningest"
|
| Terms that differ between varieties of English, or that have divergent meanings, may be glossed to prevent confusion, for example, the trunk (American English) or boot (British English) of a car | N/A. "Winningest" does not appear outside North America | Neutral
|
| An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the English of that nation. | "Winningest" is American, but so are most of the alternatives | Neutral
|
| When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. | The point of this conversation is to establish consensus | Neutral
|
| Some topics are intrinsically technical, but editors should try to make them understandable to as many readers as possible. | The alternatives to "winningest" are universally understood | Do not use "winningest"
|
| Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader when more common alternatives will do. | "Winningest" is far less common than, say, "most career victories" or variations. | Do not use "winningest"
|
| There are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages, but certain expressions should be used with caution, because they may introduce bias. | See my point about people with overall losing records being misleadingly described as "winningest" | Do not use "winningest"
|
| For example, some words have specific technical meanings in some contexts and are acceptable in those contexts (e.g. "claim" in law). | Not really relevant | Neutral
|
| "What matters is that articles should be well-written and consistent with the core content policies—Neutral point of view, No original research, and Verifiability." | While there exist a scant handful of featured articles that use "winningest", many more could have but didn't. It detracts from the quality of articles. | Do not use "winningest"
|
| Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. | This is actually what we're here to discuss | Neutral
|
| External style guides: "Wikipedians are encouraged to familiarize themselves with other guides to style and usage, which may cover details not included in this Manual of Style." | Most style guides, dictionaries, thesauruses, etc I've seen either don't recognize it at all, or disapprove of it. Back in 2007, Misplaced Pages acknowledged that it is just a made-up word: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Winningest football coach | Do not use "winningest"
|
| Misplaced Pages articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone. | "Winningest" is predominantly described as "informal" | Do not use "winningest"
|
| Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. | Our readers should be assumed to be potentially from anywhere on Earth and expecting to find an encyclopedia article- rather than necessarily a North American reader expecting to find a newspaper sports editorial | Do not use "winningest"
|
This is all very clear. "Winningest" should not be used in encyclopedia articles. All the relevant guidelines are either silent on the issue, or recommend more formal, non-regional, and professional terminology. (I've skipped the last three sections as they pertain to editor behaviour and how to close debates, rather than giving guidance on the issue. ) Reyk YO! 18:06, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I ask that we hold off on analysis of the issues until others have a chance to first agree on the actual issues we should be discussing at #Summarizing issues raised above. Until then, it's premature to offer a conclusion. Additionally, I've capped your above analysis because the format is not conducive for others to easily respond. I respect if "This is all very clear" to you, but please allow others to continue to discuss and reach their own conclusions. In the event you have already made up your mind, you can restate your opinion when we have reached the final !voting stage. Thank for your understanding,—Bagumba (talk) 19:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well now, you've dictated to me what articles I can and cannot edit, and now you're telling me what I can and cannot say, and how I'm allowed to say it. If you want to police this debate, then I'm going to have to ask you to police both sides of it. So far I've been accused of setting 3RR traps, of being a "pseudo-intellectual" and "anti-American", of edit-warring and disruption, and essentially of lying- without a shred of justification for any of it. Where were you to refactor and redact when I objected? It's no good to allow people to make personal attacks on me, and then hat me and shut me down when I state my opinion civilly. I think I've put up with the ad hominems with more grace than my attackers have dealt with mere disagreement, yet only my actions are under scrutiny. Please don't play favourites. Reyk YO! 19:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have no issue if you choose to offer the same analysis after #Summarizing issues raised is finalized. I honestly think it is premature right now, and other editors before you have commented on the issue list without offering their analysis. Is there a reason your case should be an exception? I'm a volunteer, and I am not capable, nor do I choose, to police everything. If you feel others have been uncivil, Misplaced Pages:Civility#Dealing_with_incivility offers guidance.—Bagumba (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- have dealt with mere disagreement—says the editor who has explicitly refused to stop making disputed edits until a consensus is reached. Your behaviour has been reprehensible and deserves to stay under the microscope. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- How often do I need to explain that I'm not going to be baited? You haven't been able to provide a single instance of me actually edit warring or disrupting anything, despite your inaccurate interpretation of my talk page (and if you did, WP:ANI would be the place to take it). Please stop with the insults and false accusations. You've been attacking several people in this discussion who disagree with you, and you need to drop the bad attitude. Reyk YO! 06:45, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Curly Turkey: I am agreeing with Reyk. There haven't been any recent winning reverts from them. I suggest that we stay on-topic here, and deal with any warring accusations on the appropriate noticeboards. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 07:10, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I intend to keep him under the microscope to make sure it continues not to happen. The aggression and contempt he brought to this discussion (before I ever joined in) has not abated—can "have dealt with mere disagreement" or accusations of "baiting" be somehow interpreted as AGF or a reflection of the facts? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Its funny you say this because you continually bait me with personal attacks contempt and aggression interesting. 72bikers (talk) 19:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- You continue to label calling you out as baiting. It would be "interesting" to see you engage with the facts that have been presented. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Let's focus on content, please. Reyk's table is very useful in its format and should be visible to all. Attempting to muzzle other editors is not helpful.--Pete (talk) 08:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, we'll be keeping the behaviour of editors in the spotlight so we know what biases they're bringing to their analyses. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- No. We'll focus on content here, if you don't mind. --Pete (talk) 11:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- The behaviour problems have tainted the entire discussion, and you won't be burying the evidence. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Here's some more of that reprehensible behaviour, distorting the evidence in a fantastic manner. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- The behaviour problems have tainted the entire discussion, and you won't be burying the evidence. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- No. We'll focus on content here, if you don't mind. --Pete (talk) 11:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, we'll be keeping the behaviour of editors in the spotlight so we know what biases they're bringing to their analyses. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Let's focus on content, please. Reyk's table is very useful in its format and should be visible to all. Attempting to muzzle other editors is not helpful.--Pete (talk) 08:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- You continue to label calling you out as baiting. It would be "interesting" to see you engage with the facts that have been presented. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes you might want to take a look at this deplorable behavior as well it seem to speak to a lack of character.If you think that "winningest" is in the same register as "kicked their ass" then perhaps you should put a few more hours into your ESL classes. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)You apparently think that "spaces" jibe makes you look the more intelligent. Then you follow up calling the NYT and Encylcopaedia Britannica "tabloids". I think we've heard enough from you. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)You are clearly to emotionally involved—if only you could see how hysterically grasping your wall of text looks to others. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 20 January 2016 (UTC)You don't appear to comprehend the words you use. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)If you're going to spout utter nonsense, like denying the reality of links to books scanned at Google Books, then you're going to have to get used to having your ass handed to you. There's a limit to how gentle and diplomatic anyone can be when you force them to point out that your claims fly in the face of verifiable fact. Competence is required. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:49, 21 January 2016The crap needing cutting is all in your yard. Are you going to take back this "could have used "winningest", but chose not to" horseshit? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC) The fact is (again) you're pulling shit out of a hat (that "contempt for evidence" thing that you're doing nothing to dispel) and are willing to editwar over it. You are a disruption. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC) No one's "baiting" you. If you don't like being called out on your horseshit, then cut it out. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)pushing hopelessly misguided falsehoods and mangled logic that they need to step back and defer to those who have a grasp of the facts and sound reasoning behind them. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2016 (UTC) shameful 72bikers (talk) 04:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Here is a good one you should be proud of They don't even rise to "unique theory" status—they are incoherent babbling at this point, padding with endlessly repeated bold spam. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC) If this does not speak to your character or the lack there of I don't know what does. It seem like you are only here to make personal attacks in some lame effort to bait someone into some verbal battle. But what your idiocy fails to grasp is why would I care what you think? 72bikers (talk) 06:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- So why do you care, then? The comment I responded to was indeed incoherent, and "your idiocy" is an unambiguous personal attack. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe when you fail to comprehend something instead of trying to lay blame with others you should look inward. Because what is clear is your repeated personal attacks in a attempted to belittle others does not speak to you having a very high intellect. 72bikers (talk) 03:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- You hurt my feelings.
- ... do it again! This time, in bold! Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe when you fail to comprehend something instead of trying to lay blame with others you should look inward. Because what is clear is your repeated personal attacks in a attempted to belittle others does not speak to you having a very high intellect. 72bikers (talk) 03:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- We can source "winningest" to various publications, some quite respected. But so what? We can source cartoons and comic verse to respected publications as well. That does not mean that Wikitext is written in the limerick form, nor that we illustrate our articles with stick figures and word bubbles. It would be amusing, but hardly encyclopaedic. Shakespeare wrote in blank verse, but despite the awesome contributions to the English language of our most respected dramatist, Misplaced Pages is not written in iambic pentameters. We can source all manner of amusing, inventive, and whimsical words to respected sources, but these sorts of things are best confined to quotations, not our actual text. So I find that listing sources for "winningest" carries little weight. It is misleading and false logic. What counts is the style of Misplaced Pages, as determined by the editors interested in such things. So far, Misplaced Pages is written in a serious and formal tone, not the sort of bright and breezy style favored by headline writers and jargon-using niche writers. --Pete (talk) 12:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- We can source "winningest" to various publications, some quite respected. But so what?—the key is context, and there's plenty of context in the sources cited. You've had Britannica articles quoted at you too many times for you to feign ignorance or to claim anything about a "bright and breezy style favored by headline writers and jargon-using niche writers", so how about you drop this charade? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure of your point about context. Are you saying that because EB uses the word in a couple of articles, we should use it in hundreds? My point is that we right here determine the style we use, not some external body. --Pete (talk) 04:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- I was responding to your "bright and breezy style" non sequitur. Its usage is established in contexts that match ours—either you didn't bother to examine the evidence or you ignored both. Whichever it is, it doesn't make you look good.
- Are you saying ... we should use it in hundreds?—I don't use the word myself and probably never will. I've said no more than that the word is legit and the purge has to stop.
- we right here determine the style we use—"we" (as you "you") believe we decide which words our fellow editors are permitted to use based on our personal peeves? The word's legit—get over it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- So you're not talking about newspapers and other mass media, which comprise the bulk of the cites listed. Fair enough. Just a handful, then. When I say we right here determine the style we use, not some external body, I mean the community of editors here on WP:MoS. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 10:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- CTRL+Fing will show just how many times I've made it explicit I've been talking about encyclopaedias, so I'm at a loss as to where any confusion came from.
- When I say we right here determine the style we use ... I mean the community of editors here on WP:MoS—and the community has rejected this sort of micromanaging of the language. A large portion of the editing community despises the MoS because of these non-issues. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm not sure you get the point being made. We (the community of editors) here on the Manual of Style determine the style. You agree on this?
- Merely listing places where a word has been used does not mean that we must use it on Misplaced Pages. I previously used the examples of the popular limerick verse form, and Shakespeare's contribution to the English language. However, we do not choose to use either style of expression, regardless of how many excellent sources we can find. You do appreciate this? --Pete (talk) 10:59, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- The default is not exclude—those who would have the word excluded must demonstrate the case to convince the community. In the case of WP:NOCONSENSUS, the default is to allow it continued use of the word and to disallow mass deletion of it. Thus the onus is heavily on your side to make your case. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- I take it that you agree with me. Thanks. As discussion continues, we'll find a solution. Not necessarily on this forum, but I think you should have more faith in the community of editors, of which you are one. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 11:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- I hope to God that nobody in their right mind entertains for one second the daft notion that any editors continue this discussion in any other forum. We have expended an un-fucking-believable amount of time and effort on winningest. We have researched it to the nth degree. This discussion has been advertised on every conceivable noticeboard, and linked to from 140 article talk pages. Everybody had their say, and then had it again, and again and again. This has been hashed out.
The closing admin must concluded this in a definitive way, so that we never speak of it again. Nobody wants to see another discussion of winningest anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Nobody needs it. It has to stop here.
Any closing admin thinking of tossing this aside with a lazy "no consensus" should just keep walking until an admin with the balls to make a decision comes along. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:00, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, you need to review WP:CONSENSUS, particularly the part about "consensus can change". It is simply not within the purview of a closing admin to say "we will never speak of this again". Jeh (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, if you interpret my words that literally, then you are correct. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:45, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, you need to review WP:CONSENSUS, particularly the part about "consensus can change". It is simply not within the purview of a closing admin to say "we will never speak of this again". Jeh (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- I hope to God that nobody in their right mind entertains for one second the daft notion that any editors continue this discussion in any other forum. We have expended an un-fucking-believable amount of time and effort on winningest. We have researched it to the nth degree. This discussion has been advertised on every conceivable noticeboard, and linked to from 140 article talk pages. Everybody had their say, and then had it again, and again and again. This has been hashed out.
- I take it that you agree with me. Thanks. As discussion continues, we'll find a solution. Not necessarily on this forum, but I think you should have more faith in the community of editors, of which you are one. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 11:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- The default is not exclude—those who would have the word excluded must demonstrate the case to convince the community. In the case of WP:NOCONSENSUS, the default is to allow it continued use of the word and to disallow mass deletion of it. Thus the onus is heavily on your side to make your case. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- So you're not talking about newspapers and other mass media, which comprise the bulk of the cites listed. Fair enough. Just a handful, then. When I say we right here determine the style we use, not some external body, I mean the community of editors here on WP:MoS. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 10:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure of your point about context. Are you saying that because EB uses the word in a couple of articles, we should use it in hundreds? My point is that we right here determine the style we use, not some external body. --Pete (talk) 04:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- We can source "winningest" to various publications, some quite respected. But so what?—the key is context, and there's plenty of context in the sources cited. You've had Britannica articles quoted at you too many times for you to feign ignorance or to claim anything about a "bright and breezy style favored by headline writers and jargon-using niche writers", so how about you drop this charade? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- So why do you care, then? The comment I responded to was indeed incoherent, and "your idiocy" is an unambiguous personal attack. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:39, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well now, you've dictated to me what articles I can and cannot edit, and now you're telling me what I can and cannot say, and how I'm allowed to say it. If you want to police this debate, then I'm going to have to ask you to police both sides of it. So far I've been accused of setting 3RR traps, of being a "pseudo-intellectual" and "anti-American", of edit-warring and disruption, and essentially of lying- without a shred of justification for any of it. Where were you to refactor and redact when I objected? It's no good to allow people to make personal attacks on me, and then hat me and shut me down when I state my opinion civilly. I think I've put up with the ad hominems with more grace than my attackers have dealt with mere disagreement, yet only my actions are under scrutiny. Please don't play favourites. Reyk YO! 19:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Jeh, I don't think there will be any "closing admin". So far we are just chatting. There is no RfC to close. If there is any consensus, it is that using MoS to define behaviour over one particular word is inappropriate. As the word is only used in a few mainly sports articles, perhaps appropriate sports-related projects might be found to determine its use in particular areas. Otherwise we are going to have to hold the same debate over and over at each individual article. --Pete (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Under construction essay
See Misplaced Pages:Winningest. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Don't want to wait until this is resolved right here, so you decide to take the matter elsewhere and see if you can get an outcome more to your liking. We call that forum shopping. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- The talk page of the tentative essay redirects here, as, as I indicated on the essay page, this is the place to discuss it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- A better use of your time might be to propose answers to the questions we have asked. What is the basis for 'encyclopedic'? Should we emulate featured articles? Are the examples in Encyclopedia Brittanica, Americana, Columbia, Grolier, etc., 'encyclopedic'? If encyclopedias are not encyclopedic, then what is? Should we pay any attention to prestigious media like the NYT, Reuters, BBC, The Economist, and so on? If we don't consider these examples, then what can we use? If we ignore the major style guides and dictionaries and encyclopedias, like the AP Stylebook and Fowler's and Garner's and so on, then how are editors supposed to decide questions like this? Nobody has given us any answer. You've written an essay with zero facts; you spout opinions, and link to more opinions. How would your essay look if you included some of the 200 years of examples of usage, and style guides saying the word is acceptable? Why doesn't your essay cite a single reliable source saying there's a problem with the word? Not even one?
Hardly anybody really cares whether we use 'winningest' or not. It's a lame debate. But it matters a great deal to everyone whether we base editorial decisions on verifiability and reliable sources, or on mere opinion. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- A better use of your time might be to propose answers to the questions we have asked. What is the basis for 'encyclopedic'? Should we emulate featured articles? Are the examples in Encyclopedia Brittanica, Americana, Columbia, Grolier, etc., 'encyclopedic'? If encyclopedias are not encyclopedic, then what is? Should we pay any attention to prestigious media like the NYT, Reuters, BBC, The Economist, and so on? If we don't consider these examples, then what can we use? If we ignore the major style guides and dictionaries and encyclopedias, like the AP Stylebook and Fowler's and Garner's and so on, then how are editors supposed to decide questions like this? Nobody has given us any answer. You've written an essay with zero facts; you spout opinions, and link to more opinions. How would your essay look if you included some of the 200 years of examples of usage, and style guides saying the word is acceptable? Why doesn't your essay cite a single reliable source saying there's a problem with the word? Not even one?
- The talk page of the tentative essay redirects here, as, as I indicated on the essay page, this is the place to discuss it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
A major part of the cognitive dissonance surrounding this multi-thread argument over trivia is failure to distinguish content versus presentation, substance versus style. Whether the Cityville Players are or are not, as matter of fact, the winningest team in the National Sportsball League is a WP:CORE sourcing matter. That's the actual content. How we choose to phrase it is not, but a matter of simple editorial discretion because it's just presentation – absent any abuses of style that affect the content in a WP:CORE manner (e.g., PoV-pushing tone). It's completely valid to write this as "the Cityville team has more victories in the NSL that any other", "the league's record-holder for total wins is Cityville", or "the Players have won the most National Sportsball matches", among a large array of other approaches to conveying the exact same sourced fact. There are absolutely zero WP:CORE implications raised by using or not using "winningest".
Pretending there is no distinction between discretionary style and verifiability-required substance is the genesis of the majority, maybe even a supermajority, of MoS-related disputes (and many WP:AT-related ones), and is why the failed "source the MoS" campaigning was so pointless and disruptive (well, part of why; the tendentiousness was clearly a factor, too). If we're more mindful of making this distinction clearer in these discussions, especially when someone comes here to raise a presentation matter as if it were a content dispute, the fewer pointless threads we'll have generating heat but no light. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 05:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't believe it. I think it's utterly disingenuous to make any such claims. The fact is, if the likes of H.W. Fowler, H.L. Mencken, Patricia T. O'Conner, etc. had been going around saying "winningest is rubbish!" you can bet your ass every one of these editors would be shouting it from the rooftops. If there were zero instances of winningest in Brittanica, they'd be saying "Brittanica never uses the word, ergo, unencyclopedic". If any dictionary said it was slang, they'd be trumpeting that. The problem is, these guys picked the wrong word. They picked a word that is in fact not slang, not a neologism, and not poor English by any reasonable standard. Instead of simply admitting that they're wrong by any objective measure, they're spewing pernicious rhetoric about the MOS having no external basis. The notation about using well-known stylebooks disproves that nonsense, and the fact that the MOS links to Plain English in the lead. List of plain English words and phrases is well-defined; it's based on sources. Even though many of the same eidtors who hate winningest are busy replacing saw with witnessed and arrest with apprehend, in spite of the MOS. The MOS does not say what you think it says.
The truth is, prescriptive English is pseudoscience. The whole reason prescriptivism has been tossed in the bin by modern linguistics is the same reason we study astronomy, not astrology. Folk belief is no substitute for fact. All this "discretion" and "common sense" is just hand waving used to cover up the embarrassing "I don't like it" anti-intellectual, anti-reasoning. There's no reason we have to put up with that kind of anarchy. We can and should use verifiable facts, especially in such clear-cut cases as this, where our sources have virtually no dissent. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- The truth is, prescriptive English is pseudoscience—sorry, but while there is plenty of pseudo-thought in English prescription (so-called "split infinitives", et al), language prescription is not fundamentally supposed to be scientific at all, but best practices. Prescriptive English has unfortunately been infested with a lot of horeshit not aimed at improving clarity and communicativeness. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:23, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well said. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 07:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, I wasn't trying to change your beliefs. I'm addressing the entire MoS editorial community (which is why I outdented and didn't respond point-by-point to your last post, and won't to this one either). Your beliefs about how sourcing and consensus operate on Misplaced Pages are not consistent with actual policy, in a pattern we've seen before here, and that pattern is what I'm concerned about, not your personal argument details in this round of it. There doesn't appear to be any actual dispute that the word "winningest" exists in various reliable sources. So you re-re-re-asserting that point endlessly isn't doing anything useful. There are a number of fallacies inherent in what you just posted, aside from the issue I actually care about, but I basically WP:DGAF to outline them in detail. It's clear that there will be no consensus to have MoS say anything pro or con about "winningest", so there's no real point in continuing to argue about it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 07:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- If that were the case, why does the MOS say "Wikipedians are encouraged to familiarize themselves with other guides to style and usage, which may cover details not included in this Manual of Style"? Why does it say "Plain English works best" and then actually links to Plain English? Plain English is not some arbitrary, contingent thing -- it is an objectively real, distinct form of English which has characteristics that many experts agree on. Not some set of random choices by whatever group of self-selected Misplaced Pages editors decide they like. List of plain English words and phrases is well-defined; it's based on sources. Even though many of the same editors who despise winningest are busy replacing saw with witnessed and arrest with apprehend, in spite of the MOS.
This is about power -- as Skyring just posted above "we right here determine the style we use, not some external body" -- people like him want to hold all the power to decide to remove "winningest" from any article they find it in, with no respect for the previous consensus established in WP:FA nominations, nor in encyclopedic sources like Britannica, nor style guides. These editors want it to be entirely arbitrary, or "because I say so", or "I like it/don't like it." I've already linked to several policies that show that sources do matter even in style questions. Those of you who want to pretend that in fact you are free do disregard sources and simply vote on whichever words they want to strike from Misplaced Pages without caring that the claims that it's "slang" or "not a real word" are true or false, fail again and again to do to one thing: Cite any policy or guideline which says what you want it to say. No policy or guideline says we should make MOS decisions without giving due consideration to external sources. Several policies and guidelines do indicate that we should give them consideration. This is why I don't buy your argument. I might believe you if you showed me a policy that said so. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:21, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- If that were the case, why does the MOS say "Wikipedians are encouraged to familiarize themselves with other guides to style and usage, which may cover details not included in this Manual of Style"? Why does it say "Plain English works best" and then actually links to Plain English? Plain English is not some arbitrary, contingent thing -- it is an objectively real, distinct form of English which has characteristics that many experts agree on. Not some set of random choices by whatever group of self-selected Misplaced Pages editors decide they like. List of plain English words and phrases is well-defined; it's based on sources. Even though many of the same editors who despise winningest are busy replacing saw with witnessed and arrest with apprehend, in spite of the MOS.
- The truth is, prescriptive English is pseudoscience—sorry, but while there is plenty of pseudo-thought in English prescription (so-called "split infinitives", et al), language prescription is not fundamentally supposed to be scientific at all, but best practices. Prescriptive English has unfortunately been infested with a lot of horeshit not aimed at improving clarity and communicativeness. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:23, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm pretty sure you meant some other term than cognitive dissonance to refer to separation of concerns (distinguishing content and presentation). An example of "cognitive dissonance" is continuing to believe "winningest" to be an unsuitable word in an encyclopaedic context in the face of multiple examples of the word's actual use in encyclopaedic contexts. More to your above point—yes, but the existence of alternative wordings does not invalidate the original wording—can does not imply should. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with your last point, of course. However, I meant exactly what I said. Cognitive dissonance referred to mental confusion between conflicting priorities/assumptions, resulting in inability to keep it straight that our content policies apply to content, not to consensus discussions at guideline talk pages, nor to the wording of WP:POLICY pages, nor to editorial discretion about which of 100 different neutral and accurate ways to phrase a sentence might be the most useful. This dissonance is a result of the intellectual conflation of content and its presentation, and thus of our different actual rulesets for dealing with them, and the different policy domains into which they fit, and the rationales behind these domains, etc. It's regressive, and this accounts for the intensity of the angst it generates, as well as the conversion-like fervour and proselytism it inspires. This conflation (across all of these irrational "source the MoS" things) occurs through fixating exclusively and unduly on the notion that "everything must be sourced in Misplaced Pages" or "sources trump all other concerns" and applying it outside of mainspace content (the actual place in which sourcing is actually required and among the most important factors, though not the only one; WP:CORE is tripartite). The mistake treats the WP:CORE policies as they if were the only policies, with no tie to mainspace, and as if other policies like WP:CONSENSUS, WP:EDITING, and WP:NOT, which govern our internal decision-making processes outside of as well as within content editing, did not exist or were simply guidelines.
In particular, the issue this time is the absurd notion that because a word can be sourced to exist with a particular meaning that it must be permitted for someone to use it if they want to. Consensus does not work that way. I.e., your "can does not imply should" observation applies both ways. Dennis has repeatedly advanced the view that we have to use the same terms the sources do, simply because sources use them, even if they're determined by consensus to be biased or otherwise unsuitable. He's posted several long rants about this on this page and elsewhere, and insists that it's simply impermissible for us to determine by consensus that a usage isn't suitable in a WP article if external sources have used it. (Note how closely this mirrors various other "style must follow sources" activism efforts here, all of which have been dismal failures, and the most recent of which just got someone indefinitely topic-banned yesterday from the style focus of their advocacy.) This is a fundamental "Does not compute!" problem, and the cause of it is self-evidently the same in all these cases.
I'm not sure I agree that considering winningest to be unsuitable (at all? on wikipedia? outside of its conventional topical context? not sure what you mean) could qualify as cognitive dissonance; I think that would just be disagreement, since it doesn't evidence any internal mental conflict, e.g. between faulty understanding of two scopes of policy about it. Regardless, that is not the cognitive dissonance to which I was referring. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 07:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps we're employing different definitions of "unsuitable". An example of cognitive dissonance is in the claim that a word is slang in the face of reams of examples that it is frequently used in formal contexts—CTRL+F for the argument that "winningest" resides in the same register as "kicked their ass", long after evidence to the contrary was presented. It requires enormous cognitive dissonance to maintain such a belief. Confusing content and presentation is not cognitive dissonance—it's confusion.
- Dennis has repeatedly advanced the view that we have to use the same terms the sources do—I haven't read that into Dennis's remarks. Quotes, please? If it's true, then he's wrong, but that has no bearing on the appropriateness of the word. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've only advanced the view that we must give due consideration to our sources. The examples of Good Articles and especially Featured Articles must be given some weight. Our understanding of "encyclopedic" must be based on something. The obvious thing to base it on is actual encyclopedias. Our understanding of a "formal tone" must be based on something. We have experts, style guides, and prestigious media to guide us. If sources were contradictory or unclear, then we'd have to find our own way. But in cases like this, when there's nearly zero dissent and several experts saying a word is acceptable, then arguments that the word is "nonsense", "childish", "unencyclopedic" and so on must be rejected as uninformed opinion. We are not required to use a word, but any editors who go out of their way to ban a word without any sources -- when they are flatly contradicting our most prestigious sources -- are using Misplaced Pages as their personal soapbox to advance their peeves and proclivities, not building an encyclopedia. Any time our sources are unanimous and give us clear guidance, we should rejoice that there's no need to debate opinions; we have a functional verifiablity and identifying reliable sources process that we can use to resolve the question and move on. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with your last point, of course. However, I meant exactly what I said. Cognitive dissonance referred to mental confusion between conflicting priorities/assumptions, resulting in inability to keep it straight that our content policies apply to content, not to consensus discussions at guideline talk pages, nor to the wording of WP:POLICY pages, nor to editorial discretion about which of 100 different neutral and accurate ways to phrase a sentence might be the most useful. This dissonance is a result of the intellectual conflation of content and its presentation, and thus of our different actual rulesets for dealing with them, and the different policy domains into which they fit, and the rationales behind these domains, etc. It's regressive, and this accounts for the intensity of the angst it generates, as well as the conversion-like fervour and proselytism it inspires. This conflation (across all of these irrational "source the MoS" things) occurs through fixating exclusively and unduly on the notion that "everything must be sourced in Misplaced Pages" or "sources trump all other concerns" and applying it outside of mainspace content (the actual place in which sourcing is actually required and among the most important factors, though not the only one; WP:CORE is tripartite). The mistake treats the WP:CORE policies as they if were the only policies, with no tie to mainspace, and as if other policies like WP:CONSENSUS, WP:EDITING, and WP:NOT, which govern our internal decision-making processes outside of as well as within content editing, did not exist or were simply guidelines.
Losingest
Should this equally horrible word be dealt with at the same time? Are all of the pro-winningest editors, also pro-losingest? And yes, it is in Misplaced Pages articles - that I am trying damn hard not to edit. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:06, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- " In 2015, former Survivor contestant and reality TV podcaster Rob Cesternino ranked Palau as the 9th-greatest season, while a poll on his website saw his fans rank it 13th. Joe Reid of The Wire ranked it 10th, stating that Westman "went pretty much wire-to-wire in barnstorming this season," and played "Perhaps a perfect game," while also noting that "Stephanie and Bobby Jon won our hearts by surviving the longest on the decimated Ulong tribe, the losingest tribe of all time.""
May be not the crappyest one, but surely on the winning side.
There were only two of these where "losingest" was used outside of a direct quotation, and I have reworded them to improve the tone. Reyk YO! 15:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- It seems like the same arguments that apply to winningest would be applicable to losingest. Is there something different?—Bagumba (talk) 20:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- AFAIK even people defending "winningest" haven't said anything in favour of this one. Is there something wrong with removing it, or were you asking just out of curiosity? Reyk YO! 20:12, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- My question is, is someone going to put every word they don't like to a vote? Or is there any principle at work? What would be the verifiable basis for saying a word is not encyclopedic? Because coming to this talk page for a vote for every single word is not going to work, is it? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well, no. I think this venue useful for settling genuine disputes. There should be no issue with removing it, if several people think it's silly and nobody is in favour of it. Or are you saying you'd like "losingest" to be put into WP articles? Reyk YO! 20:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- So you want to give veto power to any small group of editors who don't like a word? With no regard for sources? Because I think if we do actually pay attention to reliable sources, and the different way they treat winningest and losingest, then we will find ourselves standing on quite solid ground. We would be able to define verifiable rules that anyone could apply that would avert future disputes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- There's a difference between unilaterally imposing a bunch of edits that you know will annoy people, and being afraid to make any changes on the off chance that someone will get their dander up. WP:BOLD exists for a reason, and I think consensus is against "losingest". Reyk YO! 20:59, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Unlike winningest, one source, American Heritage, goes so far as to call losingist slang. Losingest has no entry in Webster's. There are 3 versions of the OED that have entries for losingist, unlike the 10 or so for winningest, but they call both words either informal or colloquial. While winningest is found in several dozen examples in major encyclopedias, no such encyclopedic examples exist for losingest. Losingest has some spotty appearances in the NYT, but not the crushing weight of evidence that we see for winningest, nor elsewhere like Reuters or the BBC. Based on reliable sources, I wouldn't favor keeping losingest in many articles, not without significant citations showing that it is helpful in a given context. No need for hand waving or bluff or bluster. Just look it up and see what our sources have to say. But accepting the guidance of the sources means accepting that winningest is encyclopedic, especially in the context of American sports articles. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:39, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- There's a difference between unilaterally imposing a bunch of edits that you know will annoy people, and being afraid to make any changes on the off chance that someone will get their dander up. WP:BOLD exists for a reason, and I think consensus is against "losingest". Reyk YO! 20:59, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- So you want to give veto power to any small group of editors who don't like a word? With no regard for sources? Because I think if we do actually pay attention to reliable sources, and the different way they treat winningest and losingest, then we will find ourselves standing on quite solid ground. We would be able to define verifiable rules that anyone could apply that would avert future disputes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well, no. I think this venue useful for settling genuine disputes. There should be no issue with removing it, if several people think it's silly and nobody is in favour of it. Or are you saying you'd like "losingest" to be put into WP articles? Reyk YO! 20:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- My question is, is someone going to put every word they don't like to a vote? Or is there any principle at work? What would be the verifiable basis for saying a word is not encyclopedic? Because coming to this talk page for a vote for every single word is not going to work, is it? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- AFAIK even people defending "winningest" haven't said anything in favour of this one. Is there something wrong with removing it, or were you asking just out of curiosity? Reyk YO! 20:12, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- The motivation seems to be that if they can get "losingest" banned, it'll strengthen the case against "winningest". This is an act of desperation and an enormous waste of time. This thread should be ignored to death. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
References
- http://robhasawebsite.com/survivor-seasons-rankings-results-live-sept-22-2015-s31/
- http://www.thewire.com/entertainment/2014/02/definitive-ranking-every-season-survivor/358537/
Poll: Should MOS include the wording from WP:TONE regarding "formal tone"?
WP:TONE begins as follows:
Misplaced Pages articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone. Standards for formal tone vary depending upon the subject matter, but should follow the style used by reliable sources, while remaining clear and understandable. Formal tone means that the article should not be written using argot, slang, colloquialisms, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon that is unintelligible to an average reader; it means that the English language should be used in a businesslike manner.
In the preceding discussion over "winningest" it has been argued that WP:TONE is only an essay. Should this or similar language appear in MOS and hence have the status of "Guideline"?
- Support - MOS should state unambiguously that Misplaced Pages articles should be written in a formal tone
- Support as proposer. Language tone is an important part of credibility. "It's only an essay" should not be usable as an argument for admitting informal language to Misplaced Pages. Jeh (talk) 06:03, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Alert: this is begging the question that "winningest" is informal. The majority of the supporters above are not arguing for "admitting informal language to Misplaced Pages". They have provided a flood of evedence that "winningest" is commonly used in formal writing, including professional encyclopaedias. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support. I am not all that interested in the "winningest" dispute per se. I do note in passing that almost all the dictionary refs that were found for "winningest" marked it as informal or colloquial, and I would expect that to be taken into account once we establish that we generally do not want to use informal or colloquial words — but that discussion should take place article-by-article; there is no need for a centralized decision on a single word. What's important here is the general principle that we do in fact desire a formal tone. --Trovatore (talk) 21:00, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support I'm generally in favor of anything that makes the rules easier to find, such as putting as many on the same page as is reasonably practical. However, I'd also support adding "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality" to that passage. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:46, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support- It's obvious that we should prefer professional English to colloquial and informal language. As well as being a matter of tone, we need to ensure intelligibility. Colloquialisms, slang, and specialised jargon are not always understandable to someone who's not from the correct geographical area, or an expert in the right field, so we should aim to use alternatives that are correct and universally understood by all English speakers. Reyk YO! 22:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support - There is a place for breezy, chatty, informal language, but not in Wikivoice in the most used encyclopaedia in the world. Our writing may be flat and lifeless, but we seem to have been amazingly successful with this approach. If we begin "emoting" we lose an essential part of our success. Leave slang and informal language to direct quotes of colourful people, please! --Pete (talk) 09:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - Guideline changes for "formal tone" are not needed in MOS
- Oppose – The current recommendation to use formal tone is adequate. I see no case to work on making it more adamant. Dicklyon (talk) 06:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose – The encyclopaedic tone Misplaced Pages strives for is a given. It is implied throughout the MoS and has not been seriously challenged, nor is it likely to be. Despite protests to the contrary, this is all about "winningest". Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:29, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose — The real problem is WP:FORMAL which should be changed to reflect that MOS is not adamant in requiring formality, but rather sees formal tone as one goal among others, including avoiding, "straining for formality". Per the MOS, Plain English is valued above Formal English, narrowly defined. The dictionary word classification system "formal, informal, colloquial" is orthogonal to the idea of a "formal tone", i.e. businesslike, serious, transparent. Since Misplaced Pages:Writing better articles is an "explanatory supplement" to the MOS, it should stay within the bounds of the MOS itself. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose We need to understand the case with winningest a bit more, and be wary of the risk of a hasty reaction. MOS already states: "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality." I don't think anyone desires WP to be generally informal, so it's questionable if we need more rules to say it should be formal. If there is interest in re-enforcing it, it needs to be tempered together with the existing MOS text that we neither want to strain for formality. Applying winningest as a test case, the word might be deemed informal, but the alternatives to date are arguably straining for formality (from an AmE perspective). The formal and informal concerns need to be balanced. (Note: The related discussion thread below at 23:12, 17 January 2016 had not been rebutted at the time of this !vote) —Bagumba (talk) 21:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - Several of the "support" voters have now forced me to oppose a general statement of intent with which I generally agree because they have made it perfectly clear that they intend to use it to purge the word which began this discussion in the first instance. I have been participating in MOS discussion for over five years, and this is not the first time that I have witnessed other participants attempt to impose universally what are self-evidently their personal style choices. You have no idea how much distaste you engender for MOS by pursuing pointless personal crusades such as this one. Much good work is undone by such as this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:35, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- It is a great shame that some have staked their ego to this word, and used so much space here. For the word, which on Misplaced Pages seems to be confined to sports-related articles, perhaps another forum could usefully be engaged. For the notion that Wikivoice be couched in tones of formality or informality, this is an appropriate forum. It would be a shame if Misplaced Pages were to be written in a way that facilitated contempt or ridicule. --Pete (talk) 11:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- "It is a great shame that some have staked their ego to this word, and used so much space here"? Good lord, man, review your own word count and take a look at the man in the mirror. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well said, but my statements on forum choices remain valid. --Pete (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- "It is a great shame that some have staked their ego to this word, and used so much space here"? Good lord, man, review your own word count and take a look at the man in the mirror. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- It is a great shame that some have staked their ego to this word, and used so much space here. For the word, which on Misplaced Pages seems to be confined to sports-related articles, perhaps another forum could usefully be engaged. For the notion that Wikivoice be couched in tones of formality or informality, this is an appropriate forum. It would be a shame if Misplaced Pages were to be written in a way that facilitated contempt or ridicule. --Pete (talk) 11:19, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Neutral
- Support-ish: That wording has been stable long enough, and clearly reflects consensus long enough, that something like it could be merged into MoS proper, and would fit well here, but within the bounds of Dennis Bratland's concerns, above. I don't see this as related in any intimate way to "winningest" which is already its own RfC. I wouldn't see this as a change but as a reinforcement. However, I don't like copy-pasting wording verbatim from essays into guidelines. It gives the incorrect impression that one's goal as an essay writer here is to get it "promoted to guideline status" or some other form of chest-beating. That said, I don't think it's really questionable that a minor reinforcement of what formal style means to, for, and on Misplaced Pages would be a bad thing to work into MoS a little more clearly. I'm skeptical about any more "straining for formality" additions. Constructions that are more formal than typical journalistic writing are quite often the necessary result of particular WP:CORE care (especially with regard to biased implications, and/or in reference to controversial sources). MOS itself being seen as giving a green-light to alteration of carefully constructed formal expressions to sound more like news writing or student writing at the cost of treating primary sources as if secondary, or giving undue weight to one particular point of view, would not be acceptable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 21:58, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support-ish: Its already mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Make technical articles understandable....is this motion to move the info? --Moxy (talk) 13:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Moxy: It does kind of open the question of why what amounts to a style guideline is listed as an editing guideline to begin with. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 19:15, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- You all have not cited one shred of evidence that winningest is confusing or controversial. You could cite that hopefully or tabled or various other words are problematic. Can you explain why so many UK experts, including Britannica and Columbia encyclopedias, use this word if it is "jargon" that readers fail to comprehend? If the word is jargon, why don't any dictionaries call it jargon? I find it very frustrating that you keep making bald assertions of fact and when you are asked to support those facts with evidence, you have no reply. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is a consensus discussion, not an article; it's based on editorial community judgement. No one is ever going to write a book called "Winningest" Is Too Confusing or "Winningest": Why It's Not Confusing, there will not be any source to cite, pro or con. This is a good example of why "source the MoS!" activism is irrational. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 03:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
- Tell that to Lists of words having different meanings in American and British English. Or English usage controversies, or Common English usage misconceptions. Looks to me like if you want to assert a term in confusing, or controversial, sources either verify it, or they don't. You've never answered my questions about the MOS recommending using style books, or using Plain English. MOS:NEO requires referencing "general-interest dictionaries" to determine if their definitions are unstable or not. Sounds like sources are involved there. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:42, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is a consensus discussion, not an article; it's based on editorial community judgement. No one is ever going to write a book called "Winningest" Is Too Confusing or "Winningest": Why It's Not Confusing, there will not be any source to cite, pro or con. This is a good example of why "source the MoS!" activism is irrational. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 03:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
- You all have not cited one shred of evidence that winningest is confusing or controversial. You could cite that hopefully or tabled or various other words are problematic. Can you explain why so many UK experts, including Britannica and Columbia encyclopedias, use this word if it is "jargon" that readers fail to comprehend? If the word is jargon, why don't any dictionaries call it jargon? I find it very frustrating that you keep making bald assertions of fact and when you are asked to support those facts with evidence, you have no reply. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Moxy: It does kind of open the question of why what amounts to a style guideline is listed as an editing guideline to begin with. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 19:15, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion
- Although this proposal was obviously suggested to me by the above discussion over "winningest", the wording from WP:TONE copied above would not necessarily preclude the use of "winningest" in Misplaced Pages articles, as it does note that Misplaced Pages "should follow the style used by reliable sources". Jeh (talk) 06:03, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is conflating two issues: WP:TONE as only an essay, and "winningest" as too informal for encyclopaedic writing (going so far as making the unsubstantiated claim that it is slang). As "winningest" actually is used in professional encyclopaedic writing, whether WP:TONE is merely an essay is irrelevant. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Informal language is already part of Misplaced Pages's best content. This poll question pointedly ignores the other thing the MOS says about formality: "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality". Formality has never been the be-all and end-all of a good Misplaced Pages article. Moreover, there is confusion about "formality" and the hierarchy most dictionaries use to classify words: 1) formal, 2) no notation, meaning normal or standard, 3) informal, 4) colloquial (sometimes interchangeable with informal), 5) slang, 6) vulgar, 7) obscene. These terms (which vary among dictionaries) are helpful hints in making an encyclopedia have a "formal tone", but that doesn't mean we are only allowed to use words marked as "formal" in their dictionary definition. We'd delete 90% of our words if we had to remove all those lacking the "formal" label. There's no basis for saying this means we're only allowed to use words marked as "formal" and then also throw in "standard" words. There's no basis for saying everything "informal" and below is banned. In fact, many articles use words that are informal, and even slang and obscene. It really depends on the topic. Look at our featured article writing. Consensus supports using a wide range of word types, while keeping a "formal tone".
What we're really after is a serious tone. By this, we mean, we don't use easter eggs. We don't use double entendre, hidden meanings, jokes, sarcasm, irony or other esoteric forms of instruction. "Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader" -- we don't try to teach the reader through misdirection; if we want to define a word, we define it explicitly, not slip it past the reader. That is a serious tone, or a businesslike tone which is very much like formality. But calling it "formal" introduces this confusion over word choice because it is a term dictionaries use for a different purpose.
Misplaced Pages:Writing better articles#Tone should be adjusted to correct this misconception and be more consistent with the MOS itself, since "it is intended to be an explanatory supplement" to the MOS. Even if we don't change WP:TONE, if you want to raise its status from a mere essay, lacking in broad consensus, to a guideline that carries the same weight as the MOS, then make the necessary WP:PROPOSAL. You can't simply pretend it is more than an essay because you wish it so. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- No one is remotely suggesting that we can use only words marked specifically as "formal" in dictionaries. I do think, however, that it is better by and large to avoid using words marked as "informal" or "colloquial". I am not proposing that that should be a rigid rule, but I think it's a good indication.
As to your claim that "many articles use words that are informal, and even slang and obscene", I would point out that there is a distinction between using a word and mentioning it (see use–mention distinction); I suspect that a lot of article talk about such words but do not use them in Misplaced Pages's voice. Those that do likely ought to be changed. And again, there are probably some scattered exceptions.
Perhaps to focus the discussion you'd like to provide one or two examples of articles using (as opposed to mentioning) such words, that you feel ought to use them? --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC) Oh, let me just add that I think, for these purposes, occurrences in direct quotes should count as mentions rather than uses. It's not exactly the same issue, but still, an occurrence in a direct quote is not a use in Misplaced Pages's voice. --Trovatore (talk) 21:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- No one is remotely suggesting that we can use only words marked specifically as "formal" in dictionaries. I do think, however, that it is better by and large to avoid using words marked as "informal" or "colloquial". I am not proposing that that should be a rigid rule, but I think it's a good indication.
- Well, here's the FAs, FLs and GAs that use "winningest", which most of our dictionaries call either colloquial or informal:
- Featured Articles
- Featured Lists
- Good Articles
- You've seen the huge number of encyclopedias and prestigious publications that use the term at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/List of winningest citations? You are the one who said "we are encyclopedists". Great. Lets act like encyclopedists, e.g. Brittanica. E.g. Grolier. et. al. Encyclopedists use (not just mention) informal and colloquial English whenever they need do. The MOS is clear why: awkward language in service of formality is unhelpful. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:21, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- We are entitled to say that we do not want to use informal or colloquial words, even if Brittanica uses them. We are entitled to make this determination ourselves, based on consensus opinion. I support making that determination. Again, not as a rigid rule. --Trovatore (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- You are entitled to your opinions, and to your likes, and your dislikes. But when you falsely assert that "we" of Misplaced Pages have consensus that formal English is mandatory, or falsely claim that informal or colloquial words may never be used, or when you make demonstrably false claims such as "winningest is slang" or "winningest is not encyclopedic", don't be surprised when you are handed evidence that proves your assertions to be false. I think this is a big deal because you're attacking our foundation of verifiability, and you're not offering us anything to replace it with. If we can't trust the NYT or WSJ or The Economist, nor can we emulate Brittanica or Grolier, nor can we emulate FAs and GAs, then what does 'encyclopedic' even mean? Whatever some guy says it is? You're rejecting our basic models simply because they use one word which you simply don't like. That is unhelpful to us who wish to build an encyclopedia. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:55, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- we do not want to use informal or colloquial words, even if Brittanica uses them.—more begging the question. The evidence is that "winningest" is not restricted to "informal or colloquial" use. Brittannica is but one piece of evidence of this. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- See below. I am not talking about the word "winningest". The word "winningest" is not even under discussion in this poll. --Trovatore (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Verifiability is about content. This is not a content discussion. We are entitled to make arguments based on opinion. --Trovatore (talk) 21:57, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, you're entitled to say things that are false, utterly lacking in sources, and which blithely contradict mountains of evidence. That is your right. Although, at the very least, the Snowball clause suggests that your fellow editors don't appreciate having to spend too much of their time reading long fact-free, citation-free, example-free screeds of peevish opinions. What if every Misplaced Pages guideline were made that way? It's difficult enough to learn how to edit without having all the rules so idiosyncratic and arbitrary. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Evidence? We are discussing prescriptive claims here, not descriptive ones. Prescriptive claims are supported by persuasive argument. The arguments may include factual claims, which can then be checked by citation and so on — but the main discussion is engaged at the level of persuasive argument, not factual citation. Listeners accept or reject the arguments based on whether they find them persuasive. Huge numbers of footnotes are mostly beside the point. --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK. You keep rationalizing without empirical evidence, if that's what you think will win consensus. Good luck with that. I'll keep on citing evidence, because that's how I roll. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- What evidence have you cited that we should use informal or colloquial words? You have certainly cited evidence that other publications do. I will grant you that I am surprised by that outcome, at least as regards Britannica. But I still don't see how it means we should do the same thing. --Trovatore (talk) 22:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- What evidence have you cited that we should use informal or colloquial words?—the argument is that it is not "informal or colloquial", as born out by the abundant evidence of its use in formal contexts. Demanding in this context "What evidence have you cited that we should use informal or colloquial words?" is a fallacy called begging the question. If you value your integrity I'd suggest you quit it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Curly, as I've said over and over, I am really not very interested in what happens to the specific word "winningest" in sports articles. For that matter I am not very interested in sports articles. What I am interested in is the principle that we should keep a fairly formal tone, and at an even more "meta" level, the principle that these discussions are to be engaged at the level of persuasive argument.
If we adopt a guideline here that says we want a formal tone, with the specification that if a word is marked "informal" or "colloquial" in dictionaries it is usually to be avoided, and then editors who specialize in sports articles decide to keep "winningest" in particular articles, for me, that's just fine. --Trovatore (talk) 22:47, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Curly, as I've said over and over, I am really not very interested in what happens to the specific word "winningest" in sports articles. For that matter I am not very interested in sports articles. What I am interested in is the principle that we should keep a fairly formal tone, and at an even more "meta" level, the principle that these discussions are to be engaged at the level of persuasive argument.
- What evidence have you cited that we should use informal or colloquial words?—the argument is that it is not "informal or colloquial", as born out by the abundant evidence of its use in formal contexts. Demanding in this context "What evidence have you cited that we should use informal or colloquial words?" is a fallacy called begging the question. If you value your integrity I'd suggest you quit it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- What evidence have you cited that we should use informal or colloquial words? You have certainly cited evidence that other publications do. I will grant you that I am surprised by that outcome, at least as regards Britannica. But I still don't see how it means we should do the same thing. --Trovatore (talk) 22:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK. You keep rationalizing without empirical evidence, if that's what you think will win consensus. Good luck with that. I'll keep on citing evidence, because that's how I roll. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Evidence? We are discussing prescriptive claims here, not descriptive ones. Prescriptive claims are supported by persuasive argument. The arguments may include factual claims, which can then be checked by citation and so on — but the main discussion is engaged at the level of persuasive argument, not factual citation. Listeners accept or reject the arguments based on whether they find them persuasive. Huge numbers of footnotes are mostly beside the point. --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, you're entitled to say things that are false, utterly lacking in sources, and which blithely contradict mountains of evidence. That is your right. Although, at the very least, the Snowball clause suggests that your fellow editors don't appreciate having to spend too much of their time reading long fact-free, citation-free, example-free screeds of peevish opinions. What if every Misplaced Pages guideline were made that way? It's difficult enough to learn how to edit without having all the rules so idiosyncratic and arbitrary. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- We are entitled to say that we do not want to use informal or colloquial words, even if Brittanica uses them. We are entitled to make this determination ourselves, based on consensus opinion. I support making that determination. Again, not as a rigid rule. --Trovatore (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Although there are a handful of articles in other encyclopedias where this silly thing has slipped though, and it occurs in a scant handful of decent quality articles here, it's clear that the other encyclopedias don't really like using it. There are many more articles where they could have used "winningest", but chose not to. Similarly, there are countless sports FAs and GAs here where "winningest" could in principle have snuck in, but didn't. It's clear that, even with Misplaced Pages's inconsistent and aimless quality control, good articles tend to avoid "winningest". The intersection of articles that don't suck and articles which contain "winningest", is very small. This is not a coincidence. Reyk YO! 22:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- it's clear that the other encyclopedias don't really like using it—that's not even remotely clear, and these discussions are no place to push your fantasies. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:30, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- "There are many more articles where they could have used "winningest", but chose not to". It's all right there. Did you not read it? If "winningest" is a great word to use every time numbers of victories is talked about, then good articles in good encyclopedias would use it all the time. They don't. Reyk YO! 22:40, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Of course I read it—your bizarre fantasy about what went in the heads of these writers you claim to have made a conscious choice not to use "winningest". Another example of your contempt for evidence. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Stop with the personal attacks. You know what's bizarre fantasy? Being accused of setting 3RR traps, of being a "pseudo-intellectual" and "anti-American", of having "contempt for evidence". Pointing out that your interpretation of what is, after all, just a bare list of articles is not the only possible one does not even come close to the bullshit that's been flung my way. So cut the crap. Reyk YO! 22:55, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- The crap needing cutting is all in your yard. Are you going to take back this "could have used "winningest", but chose not to" horseshit? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Holy shit—I just took a peak at Reyk's talk page. He clearly has no intention of "cutting the crap" and has basically declared himself above the law with regard to editwarring (justifying it with the delerium "I think consensus favours removing "winningest" and replacing it with English words.") Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:06, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Drop the personal attacks. I'm not going to take the bait. The fact remains that these encyclopedias selected words other than "winningest" in almost every case, and our good and featured content uses alternatives to "winningest" in almost every case. There is an obvious anti-correlation between articles that use "winningest" and articles that don't suck. It might be possible to write feature-quality articles containing informal colloquialisms, but IMO they'd be even better without them. Reyk YO! 07:32, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- The fact is (again) you're pulling shit out of a hat (that "contempt for evidence" thing that you're doing nothing to dispel) and are willing to editwar over it. You are a disruption. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- The place to make accusations of disruption or edit warring is WP:ANI and WP:3RR respectively. Either take this up at the appropriate venue, or drop it. Making personal attacks on me just because you disagree with me on a MOS issue is not an option available to you. I have already said that I won't take the bait. Reyk YO! 11:30, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- No one's "baiting" you. If you don't like being called out on your horseshit, then cut it out. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, you're obviously trying to goad me into a rage and are becoming increasingly frustrated that it's not working. As I've repeatedly tried to tell you, I am not going to let you annoy me. It just isn't going to work. If you have a legitimate argument that anything I've said or done is disruptive, I've already told you the correct places to bring those up. Repeating "horseshit" over and over just because you disagree with me isn't helping your case, it's just making you look like an angry crank. Reyk YO! 12:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- You clearly don't like your misbehaviour on display. Case in point: when told to stop the mass reverts until the discussion on this page wrapped up, you respond with plain "No." You might want to be careful with your "just because you disagree with me"s—people will start wondering which pronouns refer to whom. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- What misbehaviour are you accusing me of, exactly? This is not clear from your repetitious infuriated rants. If I were worried about anything I'd said or done being "on display" I wouldn't encourage you to take your grievances to ANI. Shall I start that thread for you? Reyk YO! 23:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, we know, you ignore everything that's incovenient to you. You don't need to tell us again. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- What misbehaviour are you accusing me of, exactly? This is not clear from your repetitious infuriated rants. If I were worried about anything I'd said or done being "on display" I wouldn't encourage you to take your grievances to ANI. Shall I start that thread for you? Reyk YO! 23:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- You clearly don't like your misbehaviour on display. Case in point: when told to stop the mass reverts until the discussion on this page wrapped up, you respond with plain "No." You might want to be careful with your "just because you disagree with me"s—people will start wondering which pronouns refer to whom. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, you're obviously trying to goad me into a rage and are becoming increasingly frustrated that it's not working. As I've repeatedly tried to tell you, I am not going to let you annoy me. It just isn't going to work. If you have a legitimate argument that anything I've said or done is disruptive, I've already told you the correct places to bring those up. Repeating "horseshit" over and over just because you disagree with me isn't helping your case, it's just making you look like an angry crank. Reyk YO! 12:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- No one's "baiting" you. If you don't like being called out on your horseshit, then cut it out. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- The place to make accusations of disruption or edit warring is WP:ANI and WP:3RR respectively. Either take this up at the appropriate venue, or drop it. Making personal attacks on me just because you disagree with me on a MOS issue is not an option available to you. I have already said that I won't take the bait. Reyk YO! 11:30, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- The fact is (again) you're pulling shit out of a hat (that "contempt for evidence" thing that you're doing nothing to dispel) and are willing to editwar over it. You are a disruption. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Drop the personal attacks. I'm not going to take the bait. The fact remains that these encyclopedias selected words other than "winningest" in almost every case, and our good and featured content uses alternatives to "winningest" in almost every case. There is an obvious anti-correlation between articles that use "winningest" and articles that don't suck. It might be possible to write feature-quality articles containing informal colloquialisms, but IMO they'd be even better without them. Reyk YO! 07:32, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Holy shit—I just took a peak at Reyk's talk page. He clearly has no intention of "cutting the crap" and has basically declared himself above the law with regard to editwarring (justifying it with the delerium "I think consensus favours removing "winningest" and replacing it with English words.") Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:06, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK, here is the first FL I looked at, List of tallest buildings in Las Vegas: "This building, however, is currently on hold." On hold, according to the OED, is figurative English, not standard or formal. On hold is used some 4 more times. The second lead paragraph uses Manhattanization, a neologism which is actually part on an article title. The American colloquialism "condo" is also used in List of tallest buildings in Las Vegas. Do I need to go on? We could do this for almost every Featured Article. Or any article in Brittanica. The claim that informal, colloquial, and even slang, English is forbidden in encyclopedic writing is false. Yes, we lean towards formality in the sense of being serious, or businesslike, but not stilted, pompous, wordy, or erudite. The MOS says "Use Plain English", not fancy English. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- The crap needing cutting is all in your yard. Are you going to take back this "could have used "winningest", but chose not to" horseshit? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Stop with the personal attacks. You know what's bizarre fantasy? Being accused of setting 3RR traps, of being a "pseudo-intellectual" and "anti-American", of having "contempt for evidence". Pointing out that your interpretation of what is, after all, just a bare list of articles is not the only possible one does not even come close to the bullshit that's been flung my way. So cut the crap. Reyk YO! 22:55, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Of course I read it—your bizarre fantasy about what went in the heads of these writers you claim to have made a conscious choice not to use "winningest". Another example of your contempt for evidence. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- "There are many more articles where they could have used "winningest", but chose not to". It's all right there. Did you not read it? If "winningest" is a great word to use every time numbers of victories is talked about, then good articles in good encyclopedias would use it all the time. They don't. Reyk YO! 22:40, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- The timing would be better if this was discussed after the above thread at #"winningest" in sports articles was resolved. Otherwise, this just feels like we're proposing solutions to winningest without having a fair discussion of all the issues and applicable guidelines in relation to winningest.—Bagumba (talk) 07:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have no problem delaying this or putting it on hold. There's no time limit. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is already in MOS:
Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality
I suspect this is the core of the winningest debate. I'm guessing that winningest supporters generally agree that Misplaced Pages should be formal, but that the alternatives suggested to date are more awkward than winningest itself when it comes to North American sports-related articles.—Bagumba (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)- Perhaps. As I say, I don't care much about the specific case of "winningest", and if local editors decide that all alternatives are worse, I'm OK with them making that decision.
In the general case, though, I would assert that we should generally prefer, when reasonably possible, to avoid words that a substantial fraction of readers are likely to find jarring or inferior. Significant evidence has been adduced that "winningest" falls into that category.
As a personal example, I learned only through Misplaced Pages that "overly" is often considered an Americanism. For myself, I have no problem with "overly", and use it freely in even the most formal contexts. But I don't use it in mainspace on Misplaced Pages, unless by mistake, not even in articles written in American English. It's too easily avoided, and I don't want to provoke that reaction in readers.
Obviously this principle cannot be taken rigidly and generally; especially in political contexts, it would give a hecklers' veto to editors taking a particular POV. So it's more of a rule of thumb. --Trovatore (talk) 23:22, 17 January 2016 (UTC)- I agree that jarring words should be avoided, where feasible, but it's an art to balance it with words and phrases that are common and familiar to casual followers of a given domain (e.g. American sports). This isn't a simple "do this", "avoid that" case. It's even more complicated when a single word is in question, and the suggested replacement is not another single word that meets MOS:COMMONALITY, but rather a phrase that is also arguably awkward.—Bagumba (talk) 23:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- I do not object if editors who frequent those articles make that determination. I am more interested in the general case. One point that has come up about the general case but suggested by the specific one is, I think we should consider making a recommendation that words marked "informal" or "colloquial" in dictionaries should usually, preferentially be avoided. Then if sports editors decide that the specific word "winningest" is too hard to replace, even though dictionaries call it "informal" or "colloquial", that should be a determination for the local editors, not the MoS. --Trovatore (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I am interest in the general case as well, but winningest provides a good test case (regardless of which side of the case anyone is on). It makes sense to avoid an informal word when there is a more formal, single-word alternative e.g. kid–child, smart–intelligent. One gray area is the case where an informal word is replaced by a phrase e.g. "high five" vs. "slapped the palms of one another's hands with their arms raised"—Bagumba (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I imagine the most common phrase used is "most (career) wins", which also aligns with what would be used for other categories (hits, goals, touchdowns, and so forth). isaacl (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Definitely not as grating to Americans as "most victorious" or as subjective as "most successful".—Bagumba (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I do not object if editors who frequent those articles make that determination. I am more interested in the general case. One point that has come up about the general case but suggested by the specific one is, I think we should consider making a recommendation that words marked "informal" or "colloquial" in dictionaries should usually, preferentially be avoided. Then if sports editors decide that the specific word "winningest" is too hard to replace, even though dictionaries call it "informal" or "colloquial", that should be a determination for the local editors, not the MoS. --Trovatore (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that jarring words should be avoided, where feasible, but it's an art to balance it with words and phrases that are common and familiar to casual followers of a given domain (e.g. American sports). This isn't a simple "do this", "avoid that" case. It's even more complicated when a single word is in question, and the suggested replacement is not another single word that meets MOS:COMMONALITY, but rather a phrase that is also arguably awkward.—Bagumba (talk) 23:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps. As I say, I don't care much about the specific case of "winningest", and if local editors decide that all alternatives are worse, I'm OK with them making that decision.
- I find "winningest" to be just as subjective as "most successful" - did someone win races, pole positions, or championships? Although "winningest", "most victorious/successful" are nice and succinct, maybe we should consider "The XR-750 went on to win (the most races/more races than any other bike) in the history of American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) racing"instead of "The XR-750 went on to become the (winningest/most victorious/most successful) race bike in the history of American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) racing" if we are that concerned about the ambiguity of our content. I'm really in two minds, I love seeing a single term that replaces a long sentence in articles, it's what we should be striving for, and when I put the term in, of course I'm aware of what I'm trying to convey to the reader. However, this isn't literature and the beauty of the language should come second to making clear and factual articles. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:44, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe you should do that in articles you write and leave the choice of words to the editorial judgement of those who write the others. That's generally how it works at Misplaced Pages. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- If we were all assigned articles to write and guaranteed that no one else would touch them, I would be very happy to do that. But...we aren't, so I won't. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:52, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- WP:OWN has nothing to do with it—see WP:RETAIN et al. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:34, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've been searching for usage guides to find any mention of controversy or confusion over winningest. Garner's Modern American Usage has entries for all sorts of problematic words, like hopefully and its discontents. The American Heritage Book of English Usage and Common Errors in English Usage fail to make any mention of known problems with winningest. Similarly, no books of neologisms or slang list the word, among those I could find. And in fact, the burden is on you lot who claim the word is obnoxious, confusing, strange looking, or otherwise a source of problem in any Misplaced Pages article. As far as I can tell, a small subset of editors have a set of unfounded, incorrect beliefs about the English language and encyclopedic writing, and they are loudly agitating to make others conform to those beliefs. But they have cited zero evidence to support these idiosyncratic beliefs. How are we supposed to collaborate on articles with editors who refuse to be influenced by empirical evidence? The attitude that we have to bend to peeves about English contradicts the Consensus policy, which says "Consensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns". Discussions are closed after "discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue." If you want your personal opinions to become relevant arguments, you need to cite something. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:42, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- If we were all assigned articles to write and guaranteed that no one else would touch them, I would be very happy to do that. But...we aren't, so I won't. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:52, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe you should do that in articles you write and leave the choice of words to the editorial judgement of those who write the others. That's generally how it works at Misplaced Pages. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I find "winningest" to be just as subjective as "most successful" - did someone win races, pole positions, or championships? Although "winningest", "most victorious/successful" are nice and succinct, maybe we should consider "The XR-750 went on to win (the most races/more races than any other bike) in the history of American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) racing"instead of "The XR-750 went on to become the (winningest/most victorious/most successful) race bike in the history of American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) racing" if we are that concerned about the ambiguity of our content. I'm really in two minds, I love seeing a single term that replaces a long sentence in articles, it's what we should be striving for, and when I put the term in, of course I'm aware of what I'm trying to convey to the reader. However, this isn't literature and the beauty of the language should come second to making clear and factual articles. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:44, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- An alternative view of that data, however, is that the usage is so obscure, slangish, and neologistic, that it doesn't appear in such works yet as problematic. That most dictionaries that mention it are American and mark it colloquial, and that it appears almost nowhere in print but American sports journalism, strongly bolsters the view that this is a regional, topical slang. WP:NEO and MOS:NEO doesn't put the burden of proof where you think they do. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 21:50, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Almost nowhere in print" except the trash like Encyclopædia Britannica, Grolier, Encyclopedia Americana, the Columbia Encyclopedia, Encyclopaedia Judaica. Yes. That's certainly obscure. Insisting that it's a neologism, or slang (or slangish? is slangish a word?) in spite of being carpetbombed with evidence that it's not, reminds me of Abraham Lincoln's "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:03, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Having entries in works that are lists of words and their meanings (works in which it usually appears as "informal", "colloquial" etc. – i.e. slang), and appearing very occasionally in works outside of a sporting context (how much would you like to bet it was inserted by people with a history of sports journalism in most cases?) doesn't prove your case, about in-context usage much of anywhere in print outside sports journalism. You don't need to prove it to me anyway, since I didn't oppose use of "winningest", in contextually sensible places, on WP. I'm simply responding to the bogus and backasswards burden-of-proof analysis given above. There is insufficient evidence this word is known and understood out of a particular context yet to deploy it all over the place here. PS: If you don't know whether slangish is a word, or how to find out, it's hard take seriously your assertions about spelling, style, or other language usage matters. WP:LMGTFY: "slangish" -wiktionary And you're also misquoting Lincoln . — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 22:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) There is insufficient evidence this word is known and understood out of a particular context yet to deploy it all over the place here.—there has been no proposal to have the word used "all over the place". The context is that a particular editor was removing the word en masse from American sports articles. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well, several of the commenters in the thread devoted to that word make it clear that they think the term is perfectly fine, period. So, just because you personally are not advocating for its use outside of American sports articles doesn't mean that such broader use isn't contemplated by some of its proponents. The strenuous comments by Dennis Bratland below appear to be making precisely the case you say no one is making. But I had alleged no actual formal proposal to use the word broadly, I simply commented that such a broadening would not be appropriate, so you are attempting to rebut an argument I didn't actually make. (That's a pattern I recognize from our last major discussion.) Anyway, I agree it should not be removed en masse from everywhere. But I'm skeptical there'll be consensus to retain it outside American sport contexts. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- There won't be, because nobody's seriously trying, not because of any decision made here—so any talk of it outside its context is a waste of bytes (as is the bogus "losingest" thread below). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:20, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well, several of the commenters in the thread devoted to that word make it clear that they think the term is perfectly fine, period. So, just because you personally are not advocating for its use outside of American sports articles doesn't mean that such broader use isn't contemplated by some of its proponents. The strenuous comments by Dennis Bratland below appear to be making precisely the case you say no one is making. But I had alleged no actual formal proposal to use the word broadly, I simply commented that such a broadening would not be appropriate, so you are attempting to rebut an argument I didn't actually make. (That's a pattern I recognize from our last major discussion.) Anyway, I agree it should not be removed en masse from everywhere. But I'm skeptical there'll be consensus to retain it outside American sport contexts. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) There is insufficient evidence this word is known and understood out of a particular context yet to deploy it all over the place here.—there has been no proposal to have the word used "all over the place". The context is that a particular editor was removing the word en masse from American sports articles. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- You make it sound like WP:NEO puts some burden on me I failed to meet. I provided copious dictionary sources that show winningest is not a neologism, it is well-defined. We have editors claiming a word is "confusing" without citing a single source that it is confusing. What if an editor said "cat" is confusing? Wouldn't you respond by showing, 1) cat is in many dictionaries 2) it's not marked as slang or jargon 3) It's printed in prestige media 4) it's printed in many encyclopedias, ergo, it's encyclopedic. I have more than met any conceivable burden of proof. What is backwards about asking those who assert that it's a problem to cite one thing saying it's a problem? They can't even cite one instance of talk page feedback form a reader saying they find word the hard to understand. There are many known skunked terms, or problematic words, in English, and many expert sources enumerate them, yet not one of them mentions winningest.
The Oxford and Cambridge Dictionaries, among many others, have good discussions of "formal language". It means replacing think with cogitate or try with endeavour, making your writing "sound unintentionally funny, as some writers deliberately choose formal vocabulary to create a comic effect." Formal language -- using pompous, overly long words, is not the same as a formal tone, using serious, unambiguous, direct language, best known and best described as Plain English. Winningest is plain English, as are many other "colloquial" or "informal" words which may be used while still keeping a formal tone. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:39, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- To clarify, I mean that it's a neologism in the context of longer-term English language history, not a neologism unique to Misplaced Pages, or even to very short-term usage. We don't have a word like "ultraneologism" for really really new words. If editors (or other readers) here find the word confusing that is the source that's it's confusing! It's the best possible source for a usage being unacceptably confusing on WP. It's literally impossible for some third party source to tell us more authoritatively than our own judgement whether we ourselves are confused by something. If someone comes here and says they think the word "cat" is confusing, they'll be ignored, per WP:COMMONSENSE. No one would waste valuable editorial time digging up piles of sources by walking your four-point checklist, to prove the obvious about "cat", in an internal consensus discussion that has nothing to do with our content policies like WP:V anyway. Especially since such an absurd claim could only be made in either bad faith or failure of competence. We assume good faith, and I'm pretty sure we assume competence, absent evidence to the contrary. So if editors are having "What is this weird gibberish?" reactions when encountering "winningest" outside the context of American sports articles, we're obliged to take their concerns at face value at least initially. If it were just one editor being a unreasonable, we wouldn't have two huge threads open about this, with sharply divided opinions.
That said, I don't actually buy the argument that "winningest" is inappropriate in American sports articles, because in that context it's a familiar term of art, and if necessary we can add it to a glossary of sports journalism (or whatever) and make it linkable. I don't suggest there's any burden of proof (here; there would be in a mainspace article about the word) to demonstrate that the word exists or that it's occasionally used (almost exclusively by Americans) outside a sporting context. The question is whether it is appropriate to use it outside the context in which it's conventional and frequent, and that's a hash-it-out-here judgement call, not a source citation matter. Anyway, I also agree that such a question is not something MoS needs to address on a word-by-word basis, though we maybe should in a abstract way. As an example, I know what "chuffed" and "gobsmacking" mean in British English, and I can find American-published sources that use them (generally in the same tongue-in-cheek way that non-sports contexts use "winningest", BTW), but I think most professional writers and editors would tell me it's a bad idea to insert informal Briticisms into something I was writing for an American (or a general, global) audience. Reader contexts matter. If I were writing about having had a hot date, I wouldn't wax anti-poetic about "I perceived an increase in cardiopulmonary oxygen diffusion and an elevated adrenalin level", like a medical report, I'd say "it was exciting". Heh. We don't cite sources to come to such conclusions. (I agree it may be of value to cite them for usage patterns, but that effort is wasted if its just done to win an MOS talk page argument instead of improve the article on the word.) I can't agree with the hairsplitting over "formal language"; the phrase has multiple meanings, and I didn't cite either of the works you did for their particular in-context meaning, which doesn't seem to relate to this context. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think we mostly agree, but there are principles we need to focus on. Have you examined the evidence that this word has been used in a consistent way since 1920-1930? It had a different sense from 1647-1900 or so. MOS:NEO says we should avoid neologisms because the meaning keeps changing, but that is not the case here: winningest is used consistently, from the NYT to Britannica to the BBC. It also says neologisms are a problem because "they do not appear in general-interest dictionaries". Yet we have shown that winningest does appear in all the general-interest dictionaries, and they all give the same consistent definition.
We have also given multiple expert sources that this word is an Americanism, which is why I've argued from the beginning that the word is should be left on US-lined articles per WP:TIES. So again, the real problem here is not how we handle this one word. The problem is that we need principles -- verifiability, reliable sources -- to answer these questions. "Common sense" is nice, but it's also a lot of hand waving, and it's a fig leaf for "I just don't like it". We don't have to do it that way: we have models and experts who can tell us what encyclopedic, plain English, formal tone writing is and isn't. No need to guess, nor to vote. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Not challenging that the word exists, has a meaning, and has been around a while. The issue is that its regional, and topical jargon, and is raising objections. The existence of a word does not require that we use it. (But the existence of objections to its use doesn't mean we need a rule against it; this is the sort of thing editors has out in consensus discussions at article, considering the context.) Not using the word doesn't seem to matter, since there are other ways to say the same thing. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 12:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think we mostly agree, but there are principles we need to focus on. Have you examined the evidence that this word has been used in a consistent way since 1920-1930? It had a different sense from 1647-1900 or so. MOS:NEO says we should avoid neologisms because the meaning keeps changing, but that is not the case here: winningest is used consistently, from the NYT to Britannica to the BBC. It also says neologisms are a problem because "they do not appear in general-interest dictionaries". Yet we have shown that winningest does appear in all the general-interest dictionaries, and they all give the same consistent definition.
- To clarify, I mean that it's a neologism in the context of longer-term English language history, not a neologism unique to Misplaced Pages, or even to very short-term usage. We don't have a word like "ultraneologism" for really really new words. If editors (or other readers) here find the word confusing that is the source that's it's confusing! It's the best possible source for a usage being unacceptably confusing on WP. It's literally impossible for some third party source to tell us more authoritatively than our own judgement whether we ourselves are confused by something. If someone comes here and says they think the word "cat" is confusing, they'll be ignored, per WP:COMMONSENSE. No one would waste valuable editorial time digging up piles of sources by walking your four-point checklist, to prove the obvious about "cat", in an internal consensus discussion that has nothing to do with our content policies like WP:V anyway. Especially since such an absurd claim could only be made in either bad faith or failure of competence. We assume good faith, and I'm pretty sure we assume competence, absent evidence to the contrary. So if editors are having "What is this weird gibberish?" reactions when encountering "winningest" outside the context of American sports articles, we're obliged to take their concerns at face value at least initially. If it were just one editor being a unreasonable, we wouldn't have two huge threads open about this, with sharply divided opinions.
- Having entries in works that are lists of words and their meanings (works in which it usually appears as "informal", "colloquial" etc. – i.e. slang), and appearing very occasionally in works outside of a sporting context (how much would you like to bet it was inserted by people with a history of sports journalism in most cases?) doesn't prove your case, about in-context usage much of anywhere in print outside sports journalism. You don't need to prove it to me anyway, since I didn't oppose use of "winningest", in contextually sensible places, on WP. I'm simply responding to the bogus and backasswards burden-of-proof analysis given above. There is insufficient evidence this word is known and understood out of a particular context yet to deploy it all over the place here. PS: If you don't know whether slangish is a word, or how to find out, it's hard take seriously your assertions about spelling, style, or other language usage matters. WP:LMGTFY: "slangish" -wiktionary And you're also misquoting Lincoln . — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 22:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Almost nowhere in print" except the trash like Encyclopædia Britannica, Grolier, Encyclopedia Americana, the Columbia Encyclopedia, Encyclopaedia Judaica. Yes. That's certainly obscure. Insisting that it's a neologism, or slang (or slangish? is slangish a word?) in spite of being carpetbombed with evidence that it's not, reminds me of Abraham Lincoln's "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:03, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- An alternative view of that data, however, is that the usage is so obscure, slangish, and neologistic, that it doesn't appear in such works yet as problematic. That most dictionaries that mention it are American and mark it colloquial, and that it appears almost nowhere in print but American sports journalism, strongly bolsters the view that this is a regional, topical slang. WP:NEO and MOS:NEO doesn't put the burden of proof where you think they do. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 21:50, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's all rather subjective. I'm sure there are also people who consider following basic grammar conventions to be pompous and amusing, due to them being really damn stupid. Perhaps we can leave the really basic terms to Simple English Misplaced Pages. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Once again, calling editors you disagree with "stupid" only underscores your failure to find any supporting evidence. Can you enlighten everyone as to what you think "basic grammar conventions" are? If they're so basic, so conventional, then it ought to be easy for you to cite evidence that these grammar conventions are accepted by recognized authorities. Can you explain why prestigious media, and prestigious encyclopedias don't follow what you claim are "basic grammar conventions"? How are we supposed to know what "encyclopedic" means if not by following the example of the best encyclopedias? I fully agree that we should follow the consensus of grammar and style guides, like Fowler's, Garner's, the advice at prestigious dictionaries . The question is, why don't you follow basic grammar conventions? Your arguments are all personal peeves, not based on recognized conventions at all. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:17, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- And I have to swing back to concurring with Dennis on this one. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Once again, calling editors you disagree with "stupid" only underscores your failure to find any supporting evidence. Can you enlighten everyone as to what you think "basic grammar conventions" are? If they're so basic, so conventional, then it ought to be easy for you to cite evidence that these grammar conventions are accepted by recognized authorities. Can you explain why prestigious media, and prestigious encyclopedias don't follow what you claim are "basic grammar conventions"? How are we supposed to know what "encyclopedic" means if not by following the example of the best encyclopedias? I fully agree that we should follow the consensus of grammar and style guides, like Fowler's, Garner's, the advice at prestigious dictionaries . The question is, why don't you follow basic grammar conventions? Your arguments are all personal peeves, not based on recognized conventions at all. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:17, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I've had a bit to think about it and while I stand by what I said about making rules easier to find, we'd be elevating something from what's officially categorized as an essay to what's officially categorized as a guideline, giving it a promotion. I think a formally publicized discussion, whether it's officially an RfC or not, would be appropriate. If possible, we should resolve the "winningest" issue first. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Another alternative would be to discuss the gist of it and just formulate new wording. I agree it should be an RfC or something though, since the change would be quite non-trivial. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, calm down. "once again...bleh." Take a look at what I read, please. At what point did I say that editors were stupid? At what point did I say that there were any issues with grammar conventions on Misplaced Pages? (*hint* I didn't & I didn't) I get the feeling that you feel quite strongly about this whole issue, but try to show just a little bit of good faith & stop trying to make 2+2=5. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:22, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have to admit I am a little baffled by all this discussion. On a word according to America's best-selling dictionary Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary eleventh edition an encyclopedia Britannica company page 1436 has only been around since 1972. Other sources also confirm early 70's. And if this discussion confirms nothing else it does confirm how controversial this word is. By contrast the very definition in some dictionary's winningest as More successful or winning as victory or superiority in a contest or competition; victorious. And victorious has been around since 14c used all around the world. But surly even if not this word we could come up with something better than winningest. A 44 year old informal American only word that looks as if it could be a misspelling or a made up word to convey the information to the world. 72bikers (talk) 06:28, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- "Looks like a misspelling", probably even to most Americans who are not followers of team sports, is probably the most likely reaction, after "not a fake word, but slangish". The fact that editors (probably even readers who've never edited before) are apt to "fix" it then find themselves in a squabble, is probably the most compelling reason to not use it outside the US sport context. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have to admit I am a little baffled by all this discussion. On a word according to America's best-selling dictionary Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary eleventh edition an encyclopedia Britannica company page 1436 has only been around since 1972. Other sources also confirm early 70's. And if this discussion confirms nothing else it does confirm how controversial this word is. By contrast the very definition in some dictionary's winningest as More successful or winning as victory or superiority in a contest or competition; victorious. And victorious has been around since 14c used all around the world. But surly even if not this word we could come up with something better than winningest. A 44 year old informal American only word that looks as if it could be a misspelling or a made up word to convey the information to the world. 72bikers (talk) 06:28, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, calm down. "once again...bleh." Take a look at what I read, please. At what point did I say that editors were stupid? At what point did I say that there were any issues with grammar conventions on Misplaced Pages? (*hint* I didn't & I didn't) I get the feeling that you feel quite strongly about this whole issue, but try to show just a little bit of good faith & stop trying to make 2+2=5. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:22, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Posting the same thing 100 times doesn't change the verifiable facts.
Once again, can anyone answer the questions that we have been asking: what is the basis of "encyclopedic"? Where do we learn of your "basic grammar conventions", when you seem to reject every authoritative source that is cited for you? If we can't emulate Featured Articles, and we can't follow Britannica and other encyclopedias, and if the New York Times is a "tabloid", what's left? One editor after another has asked these fundamental questions, and yet you give no reply but hand waving and red herrings. Is "encyclopedic" just whatever you say it is? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:35, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- For WP purposes "What is likely to cause pointless disputes?" is probably the most important question, but it's still not sufficient justification for trying to have MoS ban a particular word on unfamiliarity grounds. As I said way earlier, even MOS:WTW wouldn't include this word. It's not controversial enough in reality, however much noise these two threads make this week. Just a judgement call: Why include a word that others are liable to mistake for a type and "fix", when there are a number of alternatives that don't present this issue? I agree that if we're going to contemplate adding something to MoS proper to address encyclopedic tone/wording/language whatever phrase you like, we'd have to define it really well, and this thread clearly isn't going to do that. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Just in case you did not know. In 2001, Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger launched Misplaced Pages, a collaboratively edited, multilingual, open-source, free Internet encyclopedia supported by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. As of 20 January 2016, there are 5,059,920 articles in the English Misplaced Pages. There are 287 different editions of Misplaced Pages. As of February 2014, it had 18 billion page views and nearly 500 million unique visitors each month. Misplaced Pages has more than 25 million accounts, out of which there were over 118,000 active editors globally, as of August 2015. Misplaced Pages's accuracy was found by a Nature study to be close to that of Encyclopædia Britannica, with Misplaced Pages being much larger. However, critics argue Misplaced Pages exhibits systemic bias, and its group dynamics hinder its goals. Many academics, historians, teachers, and journalists reject Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of information, primarily for being a mixture of truths, half truths, and some falsehoods, and that as a resource about many controversial topics, is notoriously subject to manipulation and spin. And also just to put your troubled mind at ease because of such a lengthy controversial discussion I posted in a wrong spot. But because of your instant comment after I did not delete the first post 72bikers (talk) 06:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Posting the same thing 100 times doesn't change the verifiable facts.
- And yet again, we have another lengthy (two weeks and counting) debate, on multiple talk pages, over the use of a single word. If the removal of winningest was actually important and detracted hugely from the quality of the article, I could understand. But, it doesn't. This is a perfect example of how good editors get dragged into stupid debates, because one single editor takes offence to people changing their article. This is so constructive, I imagine the readers will really appreciate the time and effort spent in order to explain why winningest is a great word. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Parkinson's law of triviality. :-/ One of my personal goals over the next year hear, to the extent I spend much time in MoS pages, is to discourage, and inspire others to discourage, continued "bicycle shed" pet-peeving here, enough to make a notable difference. Way too many discussions here are clearly WP:LAME. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's quite the spin, given the exhausting Herculean effort put into purging Misplaced Pages of an unproblematic word. Why are you wasting our time with these shenanigans? And what word will you attack next? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm far too lazy to a Herculean effort into anything. I prefer to discuss things on talk pages and reach consensus that way, it seems a far more economical use of my limited motivation. I have no idea which word to "attack" next, any suggestions? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah: none. Then we can get back to contributing content instead of wasting time on non-issues. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- The great thing is, you both agree this is a trivial, time-wasting non-issue. Common ground is a good thing to find. I think I'm going to go to WP:ANRFC and seek the shut-down of these threads as no-consensus. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Scratch that; ANRFC has a huge backlog. This will just die a natural death by archival before anyone from there ever got around to it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 03:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
- The great thing is, you both agree this is a trivial, time-wasting non-issue. Common ground is a good thing to find. I think I'm going to go to WP:ANRFC and seek the shut-down of these threads as no-consensus. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah: none. Then we can get back to contributing content instead of wasting time on non-issues. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm far too lazy to a Herculean effort into anything. I prefer to discuss things on talk pages and reach consensus that way, it seems a far more economical use of my limited motivation. I have no idea which word to "attack" next, any suggestions? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- If discussions leads to improvements in an area that would benefit, then great. This is not one of those cases. It's a difficult situation, a stubborn editor can create a million reports, until all other parties lose interest and then they claim consensus. Maybe we need more evil and arrogant admins, who can just step in and say "it's gonna be done this way. now shut up", rather than constant debate, repeating the same crap a million times. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- The only use of "winningest" I have seen is in a deliberate attempt to be informal (and possibly have simpler sentence construction), at the expense of formality and (sometimes) clarity. Yes, Britannica does sometimes attempt informality and apparent clarity at the expense of actual clarity. Should we do that in Misplaced Pages? I don't know. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- So in other words, you didn't look at any of the evidence presented (including the Britannica). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's quite an inventive insight into the minds of Britannica, Americana, Columbia, Grolier, the Times, Fowler's, Garner's, et. al, which explains away so many inconvenient facts. But is the MOS still of any use to editors who are not able to divine the secret thoughts of our encyclopedic sources? Unless these article are marked with a strategic "JK" or winky emoticon ;) is there any hope for the rest of us to find common ground? How are we to know when usage advice is meant in earnest, and when reliable sources are putting us on?
Alternatively, what if we did take our most encyclopedic, most reliable, most prestigious sources at face value? When we find they're virtually unanimous, as with winningest, that should be taken as an opportunity to read clear guidance in our style guides and role models. Let's not second guess our best sources unless circumstances absolutely force us to do so. There are controversial word choice and grammar questions, but this is not one of them. By respecting the plain meaning of our verifiable sources, and assuming no occult motives in Britannica or elsewhere, we can expect that any group of good faith editors, not just this particular group with its unique mix of attitudes and peeves and personal opinions, would reach the same conclusions we do, given the same empirical evidence. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's quite an inventive insight into the minds of Britannica, Americana, Columbia, Grolier, the Times, Fowler's, Garner's, et. al, which explains away so many inconvenient facts. But is the MOS still of any use to editors who are not able to divine the secret thoughts of our encyclopedic sources? Unless these article are marked with a strategic "JK" or winky emoticon ;) is there any hope for the rest of us to find common ground? How are we to know when usage advice is meant in earnest, and when reliable sources are putting us on?
- Suggestion: I suggest that people accept and move on that there is probably no consensus in this specific thread, and it's TL;DR for any likely newcomer to get involved. I invite those interested to circle back to #Summarizing issues raised. Once finalized, they can be used as a checklist to compare winningest and its alternatives.—Bagumba (talk) 21:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that someone could determine in good faith that this discussion hasn't arrived at a consensus and on that basis I would be happy to drop the issue and move along. However, I worry that the editors who expended so much energy removing this word from articles and refusing to stop even while this discussion was being opened will not accept this and allow us to revert those articles back to the status quo. ElKevbo (talk) 23:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- If this closes with "no consensus", the closer should be explicit that the anti-"winningest" crowd cannot continue to purge the word, especially as User:Reyk has explicitly refused to stop. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is the WP:TONE thread, which is not specifically the winningest thread at #"winningest" in sports articles. At any rate, the policy on WP:NOCONSENSUS says: "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit."—Bagumba (talk) 10:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Most of the articles have reverted to the stable versions before this began. The exception being Harley-Davidson XR-750. There's some noobs there who are playing dumb when it comes to the plain meaning of policy. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dennis, please don't get angry and resort to personal attacks. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:38, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Most of the articles have reverted to the stable versions before this began. The exception being Harley-Davidson XR-750. There's some noobs there who are playing dumb when it comes to the plain meaning of policy. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is the WP:TONE thread, which is not specifically the winningest thread at #"winningest" in sports articles. At any rate, the policy on WP:NOCONSENSUS says: "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit."—Bagumba (talk) 10:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- If this closes with "no consensus", the closer should be explicit that the anti-"winningest" crowd cannot continue to purge the word, especially as User:Reyk has explicitly refused to stop. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that someone could determine in good faith that this discussion hasn't arrived at a consensus and on that basis I would be happy to drop the issue and move along. However, I worry that the editors who expended so much energy removing this word from articles and refusing to stop even while this discussion was being opened will not accept this and allow us to revert those articles back to the status quo. ElKevbo (talk) 23:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Under construction essay
See Misplaced Pages:Winningest. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you. A good, neutral POV, statement of facts will help us all. --Pete (talk) 18:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that sure is NPOV. And "facts"! So many facts! You've cited Misplaced Pages for proof that the word is "made up". Ignoring 20 different newspapers and wire services spanning decades, a half dozen usage guides, some 30-40 examples from major encyclopedias, and citations of the word in use dating back to the 1920s in the current usage, and to 1647 (!) for the earlier sense of the word. You don't even cite the one (1) single reliable source that I generously shared with you that actually supports your opinion. I would suggest adding some actual facts to the essay. Explain why so many encyclopedias use the word, and so many Featured Articles and Good Articles. Explain why you cannot cite one single reliable source saying this word is controversial -- unlike actual controversial words, like hopefully, or table, or the debates over gender-specific and gender-neutral pronouns. Those are real controversies, verifiable with expert sources, while this is a made-up controversy based wholly on Misplaced Pages editor opinions. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Looking for MOS of Talkpages
(Second go - I tried this before here on 2 January 2016, but was instructed to post my question at WT:TALK which I did on 9 January 2016, but there is no discussion AT ALL there)
Are there absolutely no MOS rules for talkpage anywhere on Wikpedia? Can anyone decide in what order to place items such as oldXfD/DYK/etc templates, wikiproject banners, user comments? Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 01:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)please ping me
- WP:TALK has the guidelines for talk pages. Sorry there's no action on its talk page. Dicklyon (talk) 02:04, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Ottawahitech, re: your second question, Misplaced Pages:Talk page layout should have what you want czar 02:32, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Hyphens after standard -ly adverbs – added verbiage
On 13 July 2015 this text was added to the MoS section on hyphens by SMcCandlish (talk · contribs): "Exception: use a hyphen even for standard Template:J adverbs if it improves clarity. This most often the case when a Template:J adverb and a participle form a compound adjective that is juxtaposed with one or more additional adjectives: a strongly recommended practice, but a strongly-recommended new best practice." The edit summary was "documenting a case I see sometimes several times per day". I could find no discussion to support this addition, and I was unaware of it until a day ago.
I think this addition should be removed.
- It is well understood by most writers of style guides, especially by the community that maintains this style guide, that standard -ly adverbs are automatically understood by readers to modify the word that immediately follows. "As he walked along, he saw newly built stone houses where there had been fields only the year before" needs no hyphen; "newly" is taken to modify "built", not "saw", not "stone", and not "houses".
- The example given, "a strongly recommended new best practice", needs no hyphen, and there is no confusion; "strongly" is understood to modify "recommended", with or without a hyphen. Nor does that example actually appear anywhere in WP.
- If cases are seen several times per day where this hyphenation is thought to be needed, some real-life examples should be provided here for discussion.
- The MoS section on hyphens was already so lengthy that many editors do not take the time to read it in its entirety and understand it. This addition only bloated the MoS and provided encouragement to editors who tend to overhyphenate.
- I have adjusted hyphenation in many thousands of articles, and can not recall any cases where such hyphenation was needed for clarity. If an editor sees such a need, perhaps other punctuation or rewording would better.
- We already had WP:IAR. That covers exceptions that are very few and far between.
Chris the speller 05:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Hmm.
- Except that this isn't the real case, it's just the idealized one. No amount of prescriptive wishing will get around a problem of actual usage. It's very common to encounter something like "the organization alleges that the livestock were inhumanely housed, transported, and slaughtered", and the obvious implication is that "inhumanely" modifies the entire chain of verbs. This kind of case isn't even slightly unusual; it's normal everyday English. It simply is not plausible than anyone will interpret this as meaning "...alleged that the livestock were inhumanely housed, and also that they were (presumably humanely) transported and were slaughtered". My typically, a -ly construction does only modify what immediately follows. Sometimes it doesn't. So the rationale Chris the speller provides is invalid. Sometimes the use of a -ly word in a long string of modifiers makes a sentence harder to parse without a hyphen to group together a compound modifier. The very reason this is helpful is that sometimes -ly constructions affect more than one thing following them; hyphen-binding a -ly word to what it modifies obviates the reader needing to do any kind of analysis to see whether the -ly might apply to more than one term. Chris appears to be a approaching the question from the perspective of whether there's a any question what is modified by the -ly adverb, when no one raised that issue in the first place. It has more to do with parseability of the entire sentence.
- So use a better example. "I don't like this example of the use of this item" is never a rationale against any item in MoS (or anywhere else).
- Encouragement of over-hyphenation is a subjective what-iffy objection. Is there any evidence of over-hyphenation occurring as a result of this line item? What objectionable cases have you found? See, demands for example go both ways, which is one of the reasons I've long suggested we move way from such a discussion tactic at MoS. Length? The MoS section is as long as it needs to be to cover what editors think should be covered. If we think that having style rules that some editors will not read is a big problem, we should just delete all of MoS entirely. Seriously, MoS does not exist for every editor to read and memorize. It exists primarily to settle specific nit-picky disputes that arise, and secondarily for gnome editors to absorb in detail and apply in cleanup efforts to make the encyclopedia more consistent. This is the principal reason it so irritating when one editor here or another there fixates for years on some minor stylistic bugbear as if MoS interferes with their ability to write. Really, everyone WP:DGAFs how you write; just go make content. If MoS people tweak it for consistency later, who cares? Just move on and make more content. Easy.
- "My anecdotal experience is meaningful, but yours is not" is not an argument that is going to convince anyone of anything.
- Someone who denies the existence of the exceptions isn't in a position to also judge how frequent they are, pretty much by definition.
- I don't see the point in providing additional examples of something I originally provided an example of, and just did again, above. If you're already convinced that no confusion could ever result from such a construction, producing additional examples seems likely to simply result in a repetitive denial, and be a waste of my time and that of anyone reading this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 21:45, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds solid to me, Chris. I'd say remove it for now. If SmC has a good reason for making this change, we should all hear him out. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I already gave the reasons, both in the text of the material and the in the edit summary. You auto-opposing whatever I support here and supporting what I oppose is tiresome, not helpful to the project, and always seems to be predicated on a demand to provide that which has already been provided. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 21:45, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I support the removal.—Wavelength (talk) 21:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- On what basis? I've already disproved Chris the Speller's "a -ly adverb only modifies the word that immediately follows it objection to the item in question. Did you have some additional rationale Chris didn't think of? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 21:45, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- As someone who recently disagreed with User:Chris the speller about such a hyphen, I do appreciate the explicit exception, although it could certainly be weakened. In our earlier discussion I link to a couple of dozen articles and style guides on such hyphens, and while most say "no" or "never", some (like National Geographic's style guide) acknowledge the rare need. (It's certainly more like a few times a year, not "several times per day"!)
- A couple of good examples from the guides I dug up:
- "clearly-labeled stand-alone tutorial". Much good discussion here, including of the alternative with a comma: "clearly labeled, stand-alone tutorial".
- "...flies technically-advanced aircraft for general aviation." This is a trickier case. "technically advanced" doesn't need the hyphen, but without it, one could think that "technically" modifies "flies".
- "our newly-issued Budget Tax Facts Cards" (Fowler's Modern English Usage). The hyphen helps clarify that the cards are newly issued rather than the budget.
- Also, two guides suggest that hyphenating such constructs is more common and accepted in British English. I want to be sure of this before enshrining an Americanism in the MoS. (It's worth noting that the Guardian and Observer style guide, clearly for a British audience, disagrees.)
- I'd certainly be very happy with a much narrower exception, e.g. "In rare cases, it may be necessary to make an exception if a genuine ambiguity cannot be resolved by adding a comma instead. For example, 'he cultivated slowly-growing heirloom varieties.'"
- 71.41.210.146 (talk) 22:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. I agree with Chris that if User:SMcCandlish sees it occur "several times per day", then some examples (plural) are a very reasonable request. The "inhumanely housed, transported, and slaughtered" example is an illustration of where a hyphen would make things worse, but I'd like to see some where it would constitute an improvement. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 22:38, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- In that first example, "clearly-labeled stand-alone tutorial", the upshot was "That first hyphen isn’t necessary". Chris the speller 22:36, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's why I mentioned that alternative, but there are several eloquently expressed points of view in the discussion there, and I didn't feel up to summarizing it accurately. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 22:41, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish ☺, my reply at 21:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC) preceded your simultaneous replies at 21:45, 18 January 2016 (UTC). If we are going to use hyphens to disambiguate adverbs before coordinate adjectives, then are we going to use them to disambiguate adjectives before coordinate nouns?
- "inhumanely housed, transported, and slaughtered"
- "inhumanely housed, inhumanely transported, and inhumanely slaughtered"
- "inhumanely-housed, transported, and slaughtered"
- "inhumanely-housed, -transported, and -slaughtered"
- "yellow roses, tulips, and daffodils"
- "yellow roses, yellow tulips, and yellow daffodils"
- "yellow-roses, tulips, and daffodils"
- "yellow-roses, -tulips, and -daffodils"
- —Wavelength (talk) 00:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- You don't seem to understand hyphens, or SMcCandlish's comments, or both. The only hyphen that might make sense would be "inhumanely-housed, transported, and slaughtered" in the exceptional case that the inhumanely was intended to apply only to the housed, and not to the other adjectives. If you wanted to apply yellow only to the roses, and not to the tulips and daffodils, you would not use a hyphen to do that, as yellow-roses is nonsensical. You'd instead say tulips, daffodils, and yellow roses. In the default reading where yellow or inhumanely applies to all, no hyphens would be needed for clarity. Read again SMcCandlish's point in bring up that example: that "the rationale Chris the speller provides is invalid." It is invalid; excpetions are now and then useful to clearly indicate the intended meaning. Removing the statement that such exceptions might exist is likely to cause over-enthusiastic wikignomes to move things in a bad direction. I'd leave it. Dicklyon (talk) 00:37, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish ☺, my reply at 21:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC) preceded your simultaneous replies at 21:45, 18 January 2016 (UTC). If we are going to use hyphens to disambiguate adverbs before coordinate adjectives, then are we going to use them to disambiguate adjectives before coordinate nouns?
- Yeah, I was pretty explicit that the "inhumanely..." example wasn't a case where a hyphen was needed, just an obvious proof that "-ly adverbs always only modify the one thing immediately after them" claim is false. It isn't necessary for the proof that the claim is false to also be a good example when to hyphenate, only that the rationale provided against ever hyphenating is invalid. Analogy: If one said "All pet cats should be euthanized because they're cruel, wanton killers of indigenous small animals", it's sufficient to show that various indoor-only cats have no effect on wildlife, and even at least 30% of indoor-outdoor cats don't hunt wild animals, even if some of these cats should be euthanized for other reasons, e.g. FIV infection. The argument for a blanket rule is demonstrably wrong, regardless of whether any particular individual case is a good example of an exception. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 22:09, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- If chronological order is important, then a different example of an adjective before coordinate nouns might be more appropriate.
- "inhumane housing, transport, and slaughter"
- "inhumane housing, inhumane transport, and inhumane slaughter"
- "inhumane-housing, transport, and slaughter"
- "inhumane-housing, -transport, and -slaughter"
- If you would re-arrange the words to say "tulips, daffodils, and yellow roses", then would you likewise re-arrange the words to say "transport, slaughter, and inhumane housing"? (Also, where is it stated that, in the default reading, the modifier applies to all the modified elements?)
- —Wavelength (talk) 02:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- [I meant to ask: Also, where is it stated that, in the default reading, the modifier applies to all the coordinate elements?
- —Wavelength (talk) 04:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Suggestions that include components like "inhumane-housing" just confirm your lack of awareness of how hyphens are used in English. Why would anyone ever use a hyphen in that position, between adjective and noun, unless it was used as a modifier of something else? And how does that relate to what we were talking about? And none of this stuff has anything to do with chronological order. If your question is how to clarify whether inhumane applies just to housing, or to all three things, that's not a question about hyphens. It would appear to apply to all three. As to your "where is it stated" question, I have no idea. Dicklyon (talk) 02:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- If chronological order is important, then a different example of an adjective before coordinate nouns might be more appropriate.
- Hyphenation is unnecessary in each of those examples.
- inhumanely treated (in housing, transport, and slaughter)
- were inhumanely housed, and were transported and slaughtered
- yellow flowers (roses, tulips, and daffodils)
- yellow roses and other flowers (tulips and daffodils)
- inhumane treatment (in housing, transport, and slaughter)
- inhumane housing and other treatment (transport and slaughter)
- —Wavelength (talk) 05:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Hyphenation is unnecessary in each of those examples.
- This site has a good discussion of the rule and exceptions, and the example "a not-so-sharply-worded reprimand". Dicklyon (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- The MoS already had that exception covered: "unless part of a larger compound (a slowly-but-surely strategy)", but, yes, it is a good discussion. However, it does not provide other examples recommending hyphenation after a standard -ly adverb. Chris the speller 03:35, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Many of the not-from-me examples provided above gets at precisely what I was trying to get at, and obviate any need for me to provide more of them. Yes, many of these constructions can be reworded, but that is not always the best approach every time, and hyphenating for clarity is not "wrong". If it's thought that what I added is too vague and needs to be tightened, then let's tighten it. I'm just wary of a blanket do / do not statement by MoS on this kind of point. It's precisely the kind of prescriptive grammar PoV pushing that sets a lot of people's teeth on edge. It's fine for MoS to be prescriptive as an in-house style guide, on what we have consensus to advise editors do, as a matter of best writing clarity for our audience, to convey material in accordance with our mission. It's not OK to use the MoS as a platform to advance external, Victorian prescriptivism memes of what various language "sins" are. Now that's it's been demonstrated that others here, and other sources off WP, acknowledge that these constructions are occasionally hyphenated (not because the construction needs it innately, but because the sentence as a whole needs the clustering/linking effect of the hyphen), I'm less concerned about exactly how we address this. I was concerned before that it would not be addressed at all due to the two-party denialism that the issue ever even arises.
PS: If I state that I have encountered the problem multiple times in one day, and had days like this more than once in a certain time span, there's no basis on which to imply I'm a liar or being hyperbolic. I added the provision specifically because I'd run into it so frequently in so short a span of time, when I went looking for it. Keep in mind that MoS regulars often go out of their way to search for and deal with very specific forms of communications problem in our articles. (E.g., remember that people denied anyone would actually write "he gave birth" or "she became a father" in any of our articles, until I went and proved it with about a dozen then-extant examples?) Of course the problem addressed in this material only arises in National Geographic articles a few times per year; they're written by professionals, while most of our text is written by high school students, store clerks, Web developers, chefs, mechanics, veterinarians, etc. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 22:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- This site has a good discussion of the rule and exceptions, and the example "a not-so-sharply-worded reprimand". Dicklyon (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Wroe, Ann, ed. (2015). The Economist Style Guide (11th ed.). London / New York: Profile Books / PublicAffairs. pp. 74, 77–78.
Please note that "less likely to be needed" ≠ "never, ever used". I have already used this source to improve Hyphen#Use in English. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 04:42, 21 January 2016 (UTC)hyphens There is no firm rule to help you decide which words are run together, hyphenated or left separate. ... 12. Adverbs: Adverbs do not need to be linked to participles or adjectives by hyphens in simple constructions . But if the adverb is one of two words together being used adjectivally, a hyphen may be needed . The hyphen is especially likely to be needed if the adverb is short and common, such as ill, little, much and well. Less common adverbs, including all those that end -ly, are less likely to need hyphens .
- I think something should be done to the part of the MoS that was added so that it does not too strongly encourage adding a hyphen every time an editor has a trace of a doubt about the clarity of a construction. I might go along with keeping that exception if the guide says it would be good to first consider other methods of resolution, such as adding other punctuation (commas, parentheses) or recasting the sentence. Several editors above (including me) asked for real-life examples in WP that show where such hyphenation might be needed. None of the requests seemed to imply that you are a liar or being hyperbolic. I am sure you have seen cases where you thought the hyphen would help. It was not my intention to put you on the spot or embarrass you. I thought you would be able to come up with one or two cases that would show why editors might feel the need for a hyphen. I might not be the only editor who would be more receptive to adding a half a paragraph to the MoS if we knew exactly what we need to deal with. I think trimming it down or softening it would be a sensible move, considering that these cases seem to be quite rare compared to the opposite situation, where hyphens are used for no reason at all ("The school has a fully-equipped gym"). Chris the speller 03:02, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Works for me, and I'll go try to rectify that if no one's beaten me to it. I just don't want to see a potential tool removed on the rationale that it's not found in every single style book some people favor. :-) It took me only about 10 minutes to find the source I did (for the article's benefit). I agree that hyphenating a -ly construction can and should usually be written around, and in most cases a hyphen found in fooly-bar can just be removed. What we don't want is for people to flush large amounts of time away trying to re-craft sentences desperately to avoid a hyphenated -ly (often with more awkward results than they started with) when it's not actually "wrong". That hyphen is deprecated in most style guides because it's usually unnecessary, not because its presence produces any form of problem. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 17:56, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think something should be done to the part of the MoS that was added so that it does not too strongly encourage adding a hyphen every time an editor has a trace of a doubt about the clarity of a construction. I might go along with keeping that exception if the guide says it would be good to first consider other methods of resolution, such as adding other punctuation (commas, parentheses) or recasting the sentence. Several editors above (including me) asked for real-life examples in WP that show where such hyphenation might be needed. None of the requests seemed to imply that you are a liar or being hyperbolic. I am sure you have seen cases where you thought the hyphen would help. It was not my intention to put you on the spot or embarrass you. I thought you would be able to come up with one or two cases that would show why editors might feel the need for a hyphen. I might not be the only editor who would be more receptive to adding a half a paragraph to the MoS if we knew exactly what we need to deal with. I think trimming it down or softening it would be a sensible move, considering that these cases seem to be quite rare compared to the opposite situation, where hyphens are used for no reason at all ("The school has a fully-equipped gym"). Chris the speller 03:02, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Can we get a definitive list of geographic entities not to link?
I feel like editors are not linking to many counties and sub national areas that aren't common knowledge to people, for example I've seen Uttar Pradesh and Cambodia unlinked on major articles before. Heck, I wouldn't even be surprised if over half of the world's population is unable to identify France on a map, even though the guidelines tell us not to link it.--Prisencolin (talk) 02:03, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, just in the US. Most civilized countries have reasonable education systems. Guidelines would be nice, but this seems to be the wrong venue to discuss it. WP:OVERLINK is not part of the MOS.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, as it points to WP:MOSLINK, it is part of the MOS, albeit on a subpage. And, frankly, what chuffs me in regards to some of the delinking in regards to OVERLINK is the assumption that all English speakers know the same geographic knowledge, which only reinforces WP:SYSTEMICBIAS, while at the same time making assumptions about the importance of some places over others to all English speakers. Plus the removal of definitional links, that is removal of links to places that are of key relevance to the article in question just because it's an OVERLINK elsewhere. But that's something I've long had a problem with: editors who systematically remove all links to a place (often with a script assist) regardless of the appropriateness to that particular article. oknazevad (talk) 03:21, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- It totally depends on context and should not be done with a script. Some are a little too zealous over OVERLINK ... Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, as it points to WP:MOSLINK, it is part of the MOS, albeit on a subpage. And, frankly, what chuffs me in regards to some of the delinking in regards to OVERLINK is the assumption that all English speakers know the same geographic knowledge, which only reinforces WP:SYSTEMICBIAS, while at the same time making assumptions about the importance of some places over others to all English speakers. Plus the removal of definitional links, that is removal of links to places that are of key relevance to the article in question just because it's an OVERLINK elsewhere. But that's something I've long had a problem with: editors who systematically remove all links to a place (often with a script assist) regardless of the appropriateness to that particular article. oknazevad (talk) 03:21, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Somehow I managed to click on the wrong talk page, darn my American education has failed me again.--Prisencolin (talk) 21:13, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- There's a been a lot of conflict about this over the years, and it's not even always about the same thing. Some of the views I've encountered:
- We should always link every location on first occurrence in a page.
- We should always link every location at each "major occurrence" in a page (e.g. in the lead, in the infobox, in image captions that stand alone content-wise from the section in which they appear, in the first occurrence in a table, on first appearance in a section that is redirected to and might be a stand-alone article at some point, after several sections (or even just one section) has gone by since the last time it was linked, on first occurrence in a reference citation, etc., etc.
- In tandem with one of the above viewpoints: We should link every part of the location name separately (Chicago, Illinois, United States), because each is independently notable and of severable interest to the reader.
- And we should always include in full and link every part (as just shown).
- Or, we should include (and sometimes abbreviate) but not link anything we think is obvious to the average en.wiki reader (perhaps based on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC): Chicago, Illinois, US
- Or, we should elide anything we think is obvious to the average en.wiki reader: Chicago.
- In tandem with one of the above viewpoints: We should use only one link per location (Chicago, Illinois, United States), because in that particular context the average reader only cares about the location as a unitary entity.
- And we should elide anything we think is obvious to the average en.wiki reader: Chicago.
- And we should even de-link the obvious ones, because the purpose of these links is identification, not rat-holing readers away into mostly off-topic geographical articles: Chicago.
- We should never link locations in reference citations, because every link added to a ref that isn't to the source or to an article on the author of it is basically an annoying distraction.
- We should always link every location in every single reference citation, because each citation should be treated as a discrete entity, like a stand-alone document.
- We should not link (maybe not even include at all) more than the first occurrence of a location in citations (and elide "understood" parts, the way most citation styles do); if the source order changes, some gnome will fix it later.
- And so on; there are probably at least half a dozen additional views on this. They can even vary depending on whether it's in the lead/infobox or in the body, etc. Personally, I'm not 100% certain it's safe to assume that everyone vaguely familiar with, say, North American placenames can remember if they're US or Canadian. How many non-Europeans will score 100% on a test asking them to name the countries in which are found Sofia, Prague, Minsk, Bucharest, Budapest, Vienna, Samara, Belgrade, Cologne, Zagreb, Riga, Rotterdam, Tallinn, Aarhus, Catania, and Castile and León? How many Europeans will, for that matter?
One can hold multiple views about this simultaneously. E.g., one might want to see full listing with full linking in the infobox, full listing with one link in the lead, and lack of redundant linking and specificity in the body (unless in a section linked to from an
{{R with possibilities}}); plus for references only consistent "City, Country" (or "City, State, Country") versions with no linking; and always using "US" and "UK" abbreviations. Or whatever.I think it's multiple questions at once, and we should probably work toward answering them in a way that keeps the maximum number of readers happy by addressing actual reader needs, contextually. A one-approach-fits-all-situations attitude is why date linking and auto-formatting turned from an experimental idea into a huge mess, a nasty fight, an ArbCom case, repeat RfCs, and a mass de-linking that was controversial despite the RfCs and other discussions (especially since it took auto-formatting with it). Use of automated tools to link or de-link this sort of thing sounds like a bad idea to me. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 05:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Seems "Chicago, Illinois" is already covered by WP:SEAOFBLUE.—Bagumba (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This whole thing is damned nonsense and always has been damned nonsense, one of the childhood diseases of WP. (Note that "childhood diseases" have long been among the major killers in human society, generally exceeding war for example. Draw a few of your own analogies as preferred.) The linkage issue has long ago degenerated into obsessive WP:SEAOFBLUE zealots exploiting weaknesses in the system and indulging their distaste for highlighting of any sort, where some participants sabotage any linking whatsoever, some sabotage linking on the assumption that they themselves could not possibly mistake the reason to show a link , and therefore no one else would have a right to desire a link, and some on the assumption that if they dislike blue, no one else should be permitted to see blue (or red!)
Given the nature of the needs, the personalities of various users and editors, and the available mechanisms, what is needed is not a bit of adjustment to or argy-bargy about what the MOS says or should say, or who has the right to link, or remove or add or even see links, but some options for people who want links to decide whether to see them or not, and in which formats if so, and for people who do not, not to see them at all. Quite detailed proposals were made years ago, for facilities that would have required quite trivial penalties and minor investment in programming, and they were opposed on nonsensical grounds such as that readers who printed articles could not see the links. (In every other sense of course, printed articles would be indistinguishable from the computer screen...) JonRichfield (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Platform preferences would be fine with me. I know little about the factors involved with it's implementation, except that MOS is not the forum where it will be decided.—Bagumba (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's a WP:VPTECH matter. If you're competent with CSS and Web accessibility/usability, I've found that it's possible (rarely) to convince the gatekeepers at Mediawiki talk:Common.css to implement classes that allow people to use WP:USERCSS to customize display. I think, however, that much of what's desired would require Javascript. Ergo, the thing to do would be to develop and test scripts that do what you want, then propose that they be implemented as User Preferences "gadgets". Most of the ones we have were never VPTECH proposals, but just "look, I made a tool, it works, so please make it available". Not everything on WP has to be a big debate, and just making stuff that's functional is often enough. Most of the template namespace is proof of that. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼ 06:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
MfD: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Register
Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Register is at MfD: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register (2nd nomination). Johnuniq (talk) 09:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Image size discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Images
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Images#Fixing images below the default size. A WP:Permalink for it is here. The discussion concerns whether or not we should keep the following wording: "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger fixed size than the 220px default (users can adjust this in their preferences). If an exception to the general rule is warranted, forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding." The latest aspect of the discussion is the 1.4 Amended proposal (2A) subsection. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC)