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Legacypac's persistent bullying

Moved from AN — JJMC89 (T·C) 06:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Again – after his cursing and threatening me in November 2014 – Legacypac (LP) wants to bully and threaten me. In a November2014 ANI discussion, colleague Serialjoepsycho concluded (24Nov2014,20:42 and 27Nov,01:38) that LP should not have threatened me the way he did and no one stuck up there for LP’s threatening and cursing; yet LP this month threatened/tyrannized me again.

If he can’t stop bullying me, there’s a good chance he does that to a lot more editors. In that mentioned 2014 ANI discussion, editors DocumentError and Skookum1 indeed seem to have attested of similar problems they experienced with LP. I’m not in the position to verify and judge all their complaints about LP, but for me, LP now surely starts to have appearances against him. Perhaps, therefore, it is time now for a real tough warning for Legacypac to stop his bullying and bossing of others?

The occasion this time was a posting from me on Talk:Syrian Civil War,5Jan2016,10:13 where I criticized LP and two others for posting comments in a discussion section that seemed to be not addressing the issue there under debate. LP quickly accused me (5Jan,14:34) of having made a “personal attack” there by being not civil, impolite and/or disrespectful. I asked him (6Jan,14:02) how he meant that.

LP then replied/repeated/explained/threatened/accused/bullied (6Jan,14:36):
- “your rude comments…”
- “ not comment on other editors”
- “you have been warned”
and (14:50):
- “ insult and belittle…an experienced editor”
- “your behaviour is disruptive”
- “stay off this talk page…”
- “…(for a while) and I’ll not pursue this”
and (14:56):
- “quite inappropriate to do that”
- “… Your comments and behaviour are quite offensive…”
- “… and could easily result in sanctions like a topic ban or block”
- “If you stay off Talk Syrian War for a while I'll save myself the effort of reporting you”
- “…but if you continue acting inappropriately…”
- “… all this will become evidence”
- “ warned again”.

Apparently, according to LP’s explanation, the whole blow up is about LP reproving me for criticizing specific edits of specific editors including himself which he considers “commenting on other editors” which he fiercely denounces as not “civil”, “rude”, “impolite/disrespectful” and “personal attack” and – (partly) perhaps bearing on my later edit TalkSCW6Jan,14:23 but in that case in my opinion equally unjustified: there, too, a simple disagreement on content is no ground for such incriminating and bullying – reproving me for being “insulting”, “belittling”, “disruptive”, “inappropriate” and “offensive”; reason(s) for LP to try to extirpate all that with threats/injunctions like “you are warned” (2x), “...pursue this” , “reporting you” , “all this…evidence”, “sanctions like…”, and “stay off this talk page” (2x).
Since when is criticism on actions/edits of Wiki colleagues off-limits? Why does LP call criticism/comment on an edit “comment on an editor”? (‘Edit’ is not ‘editor’.) If my criticism would have been unjust LP could simply have said so or have reproven the criticism – but even a refuted or refutable criticism isn’t automatically a disrespectful or impolite criticism nor automatically an unacceptable personal attack – but Legacypac never even tried to rebut that criticism, he straight resorted to his threatening and cowing habit.

Meanwhile, editor Knowledgekid87 seems to have been enticed to join in that LP’s game of groundlessly accusing me (6Jan,14:31-32): of wittingly “reviving” a debate that “has died” and of being uncivil – ofcourse also without specifying my incivility – just to have me (and you) wondering and intimidated – safe behind Legacypac’s back and at the same time covering LP’s back: another reason perhaps why it is high time now to call an end to that (presumably contagious) harassing/intimidating/bullying mentality of Legacypac’s? --Corriebertus (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I was going to provide diffs of the problematic behavior I warned , Corriebertus about but he kindly provided them himself. So here Corriebertus is Talk:Syrian Civil War,5Jan2016,10:13 telling other editors to stay out of a discussion and here he removes a close by User:Knowledgekid87 to continue discussing changing the name of the Syrian Civil War to "The Early 21st Century War in Syria". Taking the Civil out pf the name has been discussed to death and clearly is not going to happen. Last formal request plus the archives are littered with informal move requests. Admins should also look at , and soliciting an editor into this discussion I have no interest in interacting with

As for the 2014 activity, that has been mischaracterized and the user needs to get over it. The named editors who were complaining were later blocked for the activity I noted. The allegation that I cursed is not true. Legacypac (talk) 15:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

• Legacypac, I fail to see any incivility by Corriebertus. I'm becoming annoyed with your sensitive skin. I'm not addressing the move requests here – that's not the issue that was brought to us. The issue is your conduct, and it has been brought to ANI over and over again. Corriebertus is being completely civil and your outrage over his tone is uncalled for. People are allowed to discuss issues, and disagreeing with you is not a license to get all bowed up and ruffled. He is allowed on any talk page unless he has been topic banned, and he is allowed to ask questions of editors whom you don't like. What is your problem, and why shouldn't we consider your behavior to be chronic disruption? Katie 16:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Just read this discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Syrian_Civil_War#Is_the_title_correct.2C_.22Civil_War.22.3F and WP:CANVASSING an editor who was banned specifically for his interactions with me is not cool. Legacypac (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I already read that discussion. Now answer my question. Katie 18:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Editor did not like the answers given after they continue to push a rename that is never going to happen, told other editor to get out of the discussion and accussed them of not discussing, and reverted a discussion close 2x. I warned the editor and moved on. Several weeks later they start this thread. That's it. Legacypac (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

• I understand the frustration with the constant move discussions; but, I think Katie's points are well taken. — Ched :  ?  17:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I, too, have been on the receiving end of Legacypac's bullying, thin-skin hyperbolic reactivity, personal attacks, and groundless accusations recently and in the past. Why he hasn't been dealt with more severely by now for his behavior is beyond my understanding. KrakatoaKatie's assessment of "chronic disruption" is wholly on the mark, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:55, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Several days ago WV removed my talk comments and when I restored them used that dif to accuse me of breaking 3RR. I can dig up difs but it was in an unrelated 3RR report I filed. Legacypac (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

If the comments were on WV's talk page, theyhave every right to remove them at will, and you were in the wrong to restore them. This is standard practice, and it's probably enshrined in a guideline somewhere as well. If your comments were on an article's talk page, then WV should not have removed them unless they satisfied one of the criteria outlined in WP:TPO. BMK (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• While it is on my watchlist, I have been uninvolved with the Syrian Civil War article nor have I met or had any contact with Corriebertus before. I agreed with Legacypac that this edit was not civil: , what does it even mean "Seriously discussing"? Corriebertus points out my edit here but never explained what he got out of all the past discussions that were held already on the matter. Given the past consensus I suggested to wait a month or two which in my mind seemed reasonable. What I am seeing now is more of a WP:POINTy attitude that the discussion MUST be held now despite ones that had already taken place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
• I don't know what this is about, don't care, and am uninvolved in all of this. That said, while I don't spend much time at ANI, every time I do come here - without fail - Legacypac is filing a complaint about someone or someone is filing a complaint about Legacypac. A quick search seems to indicate I'm not imagining this. That's all. LavaBaron (talk) 00:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

WV conduct

@BMK to answer your question WV removed my comments on an AfD which I restored . He then calls for a boomarang at a related 3RR. (sorry not sure how to link to diffs in a closed 3RR) and when I ask "why the heck are you deleting my comments?" he "votes" again with "Another Support for boomerang following this revert taking Legacypac over the 3RR mark. -- WV"

I'm a little frustrated that WV has

• Deleted my comment at AfD, and when this is questioned...,

• Called restoring my own comment on an AfD breaching 3RR,

• Wording his comments in such a way to look like there are two editors calling for a boomarang - leading his second comment with "Another Support"

• then coming here saying I'm using "personal attacks, and groundless accusations"? He sure likes to call for Boomerangs... Legacypac (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Administrators and editors please take note that Legacypac opened this subsection as a complaint regarding my conduct 3 1/2 hours ago , but I was never notified by him that he had done so. When Chesnaught555 kindly informed me of this on my talk page just a short while ago , Legacypac immediately responded to Chesnaught's comments here with a very lame excuse: "I responded to allegations he made in the thread, so notification is fine but I don't believe it is required." While I do believe Legacypac is trying to distract by starting an entire sub-section about me, I don't believe his reason for the non-notification. If he were merely "responding to allegations", he would have just responded, not started a sub-thread calling for a boomerang and looking for someone he views as an enemy be blocked. This, clearly, is retaliation for my comments above. It's obvious bullying. Further, he's been here long enough to know that something like this requires a notification. The strange creation of sub-thread, the attempt to distract, the suggestion of a boomerang being appropriate when it's not, the retaliation, and the non-notification only further prove Legacypac's disruptive behavior and battleground mentality, making the initial report by Corriebertus to be a legitimate and necessary filing. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

The editor doth protest too much, methinks. This is an active discussion already involving you, the section name contains the abbreviation of your username that you show in your signature, I suspect you have this page watchlisted. The odds you would have been discussed here without your knowledge are slim to none. Failing to notify you might have been a minor faux pas but it didn't warrant the above arm-waving. And, WV, your use of "battleground mentality" to refer to another editor is pot-kettle in spades. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:47, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have been too busy today researching sources for an article and working on it to take time to notice or care what Legacypac has been doing here or anywhere. Moreover, if I knew about his mention of me here (as you are trying to claim), why would I ignore it? In spite of your ridiculous allegations, Mandruss, this filing is not about me, regardless of how you are trying to spin it and as much as Legacypac wishes his behavior and editing style were not under scrutiny right now. Congratulations on doing nothing to improve the encyclopedia but doing everything to further the distraction created by Legacypac. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

A wall of text with no answer to my diff substantiated allegations or diffs to support WV's serious allegations against me. I was recently blocked for failing to convince admins to sanction (what I later realized was) an Admin and Lugnuts about editor misconduct. Can we expect the same for WV here? Legacypac (talk) 02:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Continued discussion

I'm not here to pile on to a witch-hunt (no, really), but I think there's possibly some WP:CIR issues with Legacypac. I'd like to believe he's editing in good faith, esp. as he's been here since 2007, but some of his recent activity is akin to someone who doesn't really understand the basics. Aside from the misguided enforcement request against me, there have been some bizarre deletion rationales at AfD of late. For example, one and two. I hope that future AfD rationales can be built on policy, as other users might see it as being disruptive. Unless anyone else has anything of substance to add, I recommend this is closed as I don't think it's going anywhere. Obviously bring back concerns to ANI if issues are continuing AND there's clear evidence of no improvement. Lugnuts 08:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

We did have an issue recently in which Legacypac AFD-ed a discretionary sanctions article, the AfD failed, and he went ahead and did a "guerilla deletion" (blank and redirect) of the article five hours after his AfD failed , then undid other editors attempts to repair it. Some of us asked him on his Talk page to self-revert and he basically told us to drop dead. An admin finally had to intervene to undo the blanking . It caused more than a minor inconvenience as we were trying to settle the article for the DYK queue at the time. LavaBaron (talk) 09:12, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Please don't use your content dispute to try to paint me as bad. The close was keep, but with explicit direction "The result was keep. Merger can be proposed on the talk page. (non-admin closure) Yash! 02:32, 2 November 2015 (UTC)" which I had already done on Oct 28 (7 days before). and only LavaBaron opposed. Given the other comments on the AfD including a Delete, and a "Keep and Merge" I decided to be bold. There is an open merge proposal on the proposed target which shows I continued to seek consensus. Legacypac (talk) 02:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

(1) Do not characterize this as a "content dispute" unless you have some diffs. I had no involvement in the page, or the topic range at all, other than some minor copyediting to conduct a QPQ for DYK. This is not a topic area, nor article, on which I edit. (2) Do not start firing smoke round diffs to make this look like something more complicated than it was. You AfD'ed an article, your AfD failed , you did a "guerilla deletion" (blank and redirect) less than five hours after your AfD failed . Polite attempts to reach-out to you by multiple editors were rebuffed in aggressive fashion and an admin ultimately had to intervene to undo your damage . That this was an article under discretionary sanctions should have landed you a 30-day block right then, but everyone involved in this (myself included) were coming from DYK Review and had no interest in the topic area to pursue it. LavaBaron (talk) 03:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Legacypac has a clear track record of disruptive and deceptive behavior to force their own preferences over established policy and practice. Less than two months ago, they ended up here because they were NAC-ing articles as delete, sometimes not even acknowledging NAC closes, then applying speedy tags to try and trick admins into thinking that these were just deletions that had fallen through the cracks. Their anti-Neelix jihad has been a long-term disruption. It's astonishing what some editors are allowed to get away with. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by admins since 2006. (talk) 01:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

To this I can only say hogwash to this "disruptive and deceptive " characterization. This issue was extensively discussed at ANi, DRV, and various talk pages with zero action taken against me. There is clear policy arguments for and against my one NAC delete close which BTW survived a DRV. I've not done a NAC close since - too much grief. Legacypac (talk) 02:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

As I previously mentioned, I don't spend much time at ANI but every time I do come here - without fail - Legacypac is filing a complaint about someone or someone is filing a complaint about Legacypac. A quick search of the archives of this noticeboard seems to indicate I'm not imagining this, that the last couple of years has been a parade of warning after warning he's been given. This is not the track record one would expect of a normal, content-focused WP editor. He seems to know how to push just far enough with his edits and how to be just nasty enough with other editors to only get yellow cards. My limited interaction with him just in this thread has left less than a good taste in my mouth - instead of offering explanation or reasonable rebuttal for questions about his edits his first inclination is to unsheathe the knives and start swinging. He seems to treat WP as a giant barroom brawl. LavaBaron (talk) 03:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

"He seems to treat WP as a giant barroom brawl." Yeah. That's clear. This should be the place to deal with that, but it often seems to not work out that way. Go figure. Begoon  14:34, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for Resolution

The original ANI notice seems to be vague. A number of editors such as Begoon, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, Lugnuts, Corriebertus, Knowledgekid87, Winkelvi have provided thoughts, but this has rapidly descended into a complaint fest and parade of horribles with no suggestion for resolution, which is unfair to Legacypac and other editors themselves.
As a concrete proposal, therefore, I recommend - based on the issues raised by aformentioned editors in the preceding discussion - a one-year WP:CBAN applied on Legacypac by community consensus on all topic pages covered by the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL case. LavaBaron (talk) 00:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support as per reasons described in "continued discussion" (above) by me, specifically the "stealth deletion" of a discretionary sanctions article by Legacypac. LavaBaron (talk) 00:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support per LavaBaron. I have to wonder, however, what will change in the future with the behaviors noted by myself and other editors above. If this CBAN proposal becomes a reality, it will be interesting to see if LPs behavior changes for the better outside the specifics of the CBAN. If not, we will likely be back here again (and again) with LP as the subject of more filings. One thing at a time, I guess. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:32, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

What a dumb idea. I've edited quite responsibly in the SCW&ISIL area for several years. I have started and built out a number of good articles there, have no record of edit warring sanctions there, and regularly patrol changes and revert vandalism in this area. Large parts of both the text and organization of the pillar ISIL article still stand as written and organized by me last year. Some people don't like my cleanup efforts but targeting my participation in ISIL topics is wrong headed.

I'm also surprised to see WV still posting in this thread after he failed to answer for his own behavior just above, claiming he was too busy. Someone should look at his falsifications and act on them. Legacypac (talk) 02:58, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Within the context of the behavioral issues that have been raised, starting a response to another editor with "what a dumb idea" may underscore that this is not such a dumb idea after all. Just a thought. LavaBaron (talk) 07:12, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the laugh. kettles, pots and all. Legacypac (talk) 08:07, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

The formal proposal is in revisions history. Feel free to use it. But it won't have my support until any of the sides properly establish their viewpoints. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 08:12, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Appreciate you providing a better worded proposal QEDK. I agree it's preferable to the current version, as it's more precise and fairer to Legacypac as it leaves less ambiguity, but I'd rather defer to another editor to introduce it as I'd rather not become more involved in this than I am already. LavaBaron (talk) 08:21, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Anyone can introduce a proposal, however only uninvolved editors can close it. That's how it works. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 08:23, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Indeed it is. LavaBaron (talk) 08:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Legacypac, I've noticed that you've nominated a bunch of redirects by Neelix for speedy deletion, branding them as nonsense. Why? They seem perfectly fine to me. Neelix is an experienced editor who clearly knows why such redirects are required. I therefore support the CBAN proposed by LavaBaron as I think you need to learn that your behaviour is unacceptable. Chesnaught (talk) 15:44, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

You do know that Neelix disappeared up his own orifice in a blaze of self-failure, right? Lugnuts 18:13, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

If Ches doesn't know it, he must be living under a Wiki-rock. Even so, it does seem at this point, from the edit summaries as well as the fervor behind the deletion nominations by this one editor, that there is an unhealthy flavor of vendetta afoot. Just my observation. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:28, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

'A bunch' of Neelix redirects is a very unfair characterization. I processed (CSD, RfD, AfD, or cleared as ok) over 2,200 Neelix redirects just this weekend on list 5 so far . plus some on lists 1-4 too. You must have missed the community decision that any Neelix redirect can be deleted G6 housekeeping if an Admin thinks it would not survive RfD.

Also Someone should look into WV's false allegations above since he keeps spouting nonsense about me here please. Legacypac (talk) 19:20, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Despite Legacypac's incessant breast-beating and pronouncements of their editing's importance, their efforts are proving indiscriminate, disruptive and spiteful. Just a few minutes ago, Legacypac reinstated a pair of speedies I declined without substantive explanation, without bothering to check out the reason I gave, with a snarky (at best) edit summary. It's one thing to whack Neelix's hundreds of synonyms for female mammaries; it's quite another to aggressively try to delete redirects like "possession of a firearm", when the simplest Gsearch would shows several million uses, included frequent references in US statutes and court cases. Their jihad is more disruptive than the problem; the reason that nobody noticed Neelix's crap for years was that it was mostly harmless. That can't be said about Legacypac's behaviour. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by admins since 2006. (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I saw the reinstatements and thought of coming here to mention them, but am glad someone else took the initiative. At this point, yes, the Neelix-related deletion requests by LP do seem spiteful and disruptive. As I noted above. Is his war on Neelix really doing any good at this point? I submit, "No". -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 21:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz just a gentle reminder, this isn't the place to "pile on" against Legacypac. Please clearly state whether you Support or Oppose the Community Ban proposal, preferably with a bullet point and bold, in the main threadline, for ease of bookkeeping. LavaBaron (talk) 23:16, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Apologies for late reply. Lugnuts, of course I am aware of Neelix's departure, but as Winkelvi was saying, LP does seem to be on a vendetta against him for some reason. Chesnaught (talk) 07:34, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

There is no vendetta - there is still a BIG cleanup job to do. Neelix created thousands of fake words and other misleading redirects. It remains easy to pick off dozens of these in minutes. Editors that are spending their time bitching here instead of cleaning up or doing something productive should be ashamed of themselves for they truly are the proverbial peanut gallery. Legacypac (talk) 11:01, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

That sort of language won't help you out at all here. Furthermore, these redirects that you are nominating for SD aren't always the malicious ones which Neelix created; some of them were actually fine. Chesnaught (talk) 16:24, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

The VAST majority of my noms are deleted. Sometimes others see stuff that can be retargeted or think something should be saved. That is why we have Redirects for Discussion. I don't see a result of not delete as a failure.

• Regarding Legacypac's apparent "vendetta" against Neelix redirects, there are some 80,000 nonsense creations by that one editor which the community agreed needed to be dealt with in this piecemeal fashion (rather than mass-deleting all of them, and rather than keeping all of them as good-faith contributions). To support this, the community also passed a special criterion for WP:G6 to allow admins to speedy-delete them. Both of these discussions were large threads with broad community support, not just one or two editors deciding to go rogue. This was happening entirely in the background until about a week ago when a handful of editors began executing their own vendetta against Legacypac, following him around removing his CSD notices, and that's the entirety of the reason that these masses of obvious-delete redirects are getting dumped at RfD again (and then speedy deleted anyway). So if you want to end the disruption entirely, stop removing the notices. I have no comment on the proposal. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:06, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support This edit, with the summary "the peanut gallery can choke on their nuts" is probably enough to convince any rational editor that a CBAN is necessary for Legacypac. The pattern of abusive personal attacks and provocations has gone one far too long. An editor that has no qualms dragging any and every editor who differs wih him to ANI or Arbitration Enforcement on a daily basis should realize that he has been hit by a long overdue WP:BOOMERANG. Alansohn (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support per Alansohn. Despite the issues being brought to the attention of the user, they continue with the same behaviour that brought their habits to the attention of ANI. And Legacypac should count himself lucky it's not a block/lenghty ban/indef. Lugnuts 19:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Editors calls other editors SCUM and FUCK on the top of their talk User_talk:Lugnuts should not be talking about bans over civility. Anyway I was already blocked for complaining about Lugnuts rudeness, so punishing me again because he is still annoyed at me taking him to AE is quite wrong. Legacypac (talk) 18:07, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not calling any editors scum, if you take your head out of your arse, you'll see it links to a highly funny TV show. Yes it fucking does. Lugnuts 19:08, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. It stroke me what Ivanvector wrote which I trustfully accept as a fact. It thus looks to me that Legacypac's only fault (apart from his less-than-civil commenting style) was that he was cutting procedural corners in his efforts to undo all of Neelix's vandalism/contentious edits, by XfD'ing and re-XfD'ing Neelix's redirects (as anyway approved by a large consensus). Uninitiated editors could well not have the knowledge of the context and tried to stop/revert him, leading him to that less-than-civil behaviour. Still, I believe Legacypac's initiative deserves at least a degree of recognition. As for the civility issue, I believe a punitive ban block of a day or two should suffice, as it is often done with editors too quick to revert or who show outbursts of aggression. In short, there is a problem with Legacypac's civility, as this thread's title shows anyway, but topic bans are NOT a right remedy to civility issues. — kashmiri  16:32, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Kashmiri - my impetus for the proposal had nothing to do with his civility, though that is definitely a concern based on his rap sheet at ANI. My proposal was based on my non-Neelix experience in which he AfD'ed a page under discretionary sanctions and, five hours after the AfD failed, "guerilla deleted" (blank/redirect) it. After being asked by multiple editors to undo the guerilla deletion he simply dug in his heels. An admin finally had to be sourced to undo it as everyone else - everyone except, apparently, Legacypac - was treading carefully to avoid violating the discretionary sanctions. Based on the whole of the non-Neelix issues, it appears he has a shoot first / ask questions later approach to editing sensitive articles and an unwillingness to collaborate with others on this topic. (And I say this as someone who is not active at all on the topic, but came across it quite by accident, as I've detailed in my original case in the preceding section). LavaBaron (talk) 20:20, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@LavaBaron: Sure, but this post is about persistent bullying by Legacypac, as this precisely is the problem stated by the OP. You have rightly noticed that the thread has descended into a complaint fest and a few editors started digging out their content disputes with LP. BUT we are still - or should be - discussing the original problem which is LP's "bullying". Topic bans are preventive, their aim is to prevent damage to a certain subset of Misplaced Pages articles. But nobody here suggests that LP damages any topic. So, when talking about behaviour, we can only look at punitive sanctions, like formal reprimands, short-term blocks, etc.

You mentioned an instance of blank-and-redirect. I am not involved in the ISIL topic but where I edit (India & Pakistan) we also have discretionary sanctions. Still, articles are frequently blanked and redirected with little fanfare or consequences. This is not to say these topics are comparable, but I'd like to put an single act of blank-and-redirect in correct perspective. Regards, — kashmiri  08:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

This isn't a single act, first of all. Second of all, it was not simply a "blank and redirect" - he AfD'ed it and there was a wide consensus it should be kept as is. Less than five hours later he decided his opinion was more important than the community and did a blank/redirect - overriding a just-established consensus on this discretionary sanctions article. Multiple editors requested he voluntarily undo it and he basically told them to GFY. With a great expenditure of time that could have been spent editing, editors then had to source an admin to clean up the mess Legacypac left. This also caused problems with DYK bookkeeping as the article was in the queue at the time. Through his history of edits, Legacypac seems to believe there's one way to do things: his way. And if you're not on board, you better get out of the way, as Begoon noted. LavaBaron (talk) 17:12, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Absurd to apply "a one-year WP:CBAN applied on Legacypac by community consensus on all topic pages covered by the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL case" for continuing to clean up Neelix redirects that are - so far as I know - quite unrelated to the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL case. NebY (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't always agree with Legacypac, but IMO he's right here. So are kashmiri and Neb above. A topic ban wouldn't make sense. ansh666 19:53, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

It's not a proposal for a topic ban, but rather a community ban. Ches (talk) 11:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

No, it's a proposal for a WP:CBAN topic ban from pages covered by WP:GS/SCW&ISIL, as I quoted above - you may find it helpful to review WP:CBAN. This raises the question of what it is that you are supporting. Is it a topic ban from WP:GS/SCW&ISIL pages, or a complete ban from Misplaced Pages for continuing to clean up Neelix's redirects? NebY (talk) 13:44, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The former, sir, although given LP's recent bullying of other users, I would be in support of the latter should it ever be proposed. Ches (talk) 14:01, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support per Lugnuts. 97.95.68.240 (talk) 21:52, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose LP is on the right side of the Neelix redirect issue. He is explicitly carrying out the stated view of the community. I've had occasion to see Legacypac in action over the last several months because of our mutual interest in pruning the WALLEDGARDEN of "World's Oldest People" articles. LP is often brusque and snarky but generally right. His contributions are a boon to the project. It is not a violation of civility to call dumb ideas dumb, nor is it unconstructive to ridicule the ridiculous. David in DC (talk) 22:25, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Gotcha. So if you act like an uncivil ****, but hunker down with a thankless task in the meantime, you get a free pass. Glad that's clear. Lugnuts 19:43, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't strike me as a reasonable recapitulation of my comments. Nor of LP's behavior. Which is unsurprising, but still sad. David in DC (talk)

Well Dave, I can't account for your reading skills. No doubt we'll see Legacypac back here sooner rather than later. Lugnuts 08:42, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Any opinion on the non-Neelix related issues that were mentioned? Specifically his "guerilla deletion" (blank / revert) of a discretionary sanctions page after it failed his AFD and his refusal to undo it, ultimately requiring admin intervention? LavaBaron (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Not really, but this thread is supposed to be about "persistent bullying." What you're describing as a "guerilla deletion" may or may not have been improper, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what it's doing in this thread at all. David in DC (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

The thread is about whatever we make it about. A thread title is not a suicide pact. LavaBaron (talk) 04:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

LP dared to blank a page under sanctions and you are proposing a one year TBAN? Is that correct? — kashmiri  10:40, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support looking for any justification to invalidate perfectly independent viewpoints. I do believe this has gone well beyond CIR levels to the point of questioning if a suicide by admin defense is being put forth. And now for the obligatory attack to invalidate myself as per the modus operandi. Hasteur (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: There seems to be a pattern of behaviour here, which I cannot personally speak to, which is informing many of the positions with regard to Legacypac, and it may very well be that there is some long overdue community action that needs to be taken. Certainly there seems to be a bit of battleground mentality involved here. However, reviewing the diffs supplied above and looking over the talk page discussions, it doesn't seem as if the digression into polemics is altogether one-sided--including particularly the failures to assume good faith and attempts to discredit the opinions of others via an implication of disruption. Both LP and corriebertus seem inclined to engage in this kind of behaviour, with each apparently oblivious to the irony of their charges: , . Even recognizing that editors who routinely fail to operate in a collaborative fashion should be called to account, and further acknowledging that the editors commenting here seem to have valid points about a pattern in Legacypac's collaborative approach, I'm still concerned that it may not be appropriate to invoke a sanction in this case, where the behaviour of the filing party is arguably as, or more, combative and disruptive as LP's. Snow 04:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support. If the above arguments are not enough, LP also casts totally unbased aspersions on editors who don't support his arguments at AfD and elsewhere. This action is long overdue. Jacona (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support. There's a lot of cleanup to do with the list(s) of Neelix redirects. Legacypac has done good work on getting that process started. But the behavior problems listed here, including incivility and outright personal attacks, disruption at RFD and in CSD tagging, and general unpleasantness? Nope. There are enough editors working the Neelix list. Right now Legacypac's involvement is doing more harm than good. Walk away. Edit something else. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Going through Legacypac's extensive rap sheet at ANI, it appears he's already been subject of a one-year ban, which makes me wonder if one-year is even too little given this is a chronic issue.EDIT - nevermind, just noticed that was a TBAN on BLPs, not the different topic this one proposes. LavaBaron (talk) 17:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I have a ‘better’, or at least a competing, proposal: see below. --Corriebertus (talk) 19:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - it's apparent there is a group of editors out to find a way to punish Legacypac. Again, there have been numerous discussions approving Legacypac's course of action regarding deletion of the Neelix redirects, yet this group continues to bring up that entirely unrelated behaviour as a reason to sanction him in whatever topic area this thread is about. While Legacypac's behaviour may have been tendentious within that topic, it's this group's behaviour which is disruptive to the project as a whole. I endorse no sanctions, and suggest this be closed with no action for the good of the project. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate the rhetorical strategy of the minority of Legacypac supporters in framing this as a Neelix issue but once again, for the record, I'm the proposer and I've never even mentioned Neelix as a reason for a ban. I've also only co-edited two articles with Legacypac and my gross quantity of edits on those articles was a whopping six (6) edits so I'm not sure which "group" that makes me part of? Does that still make me a part of this vast conspiracy you've alleged - like kind-of a second gunman type-of-thing? LavaBaron (talk) 19:57, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, hey, the LP opposers were the ones who brought up Neelix in the first place. ansh666 22:53, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Competing proposal: block from Misplaced Pages for one week

Out of curiosity to understand what type of editor, or what type of person, Legacypac (LP) is, I looked up his User contributions list, and was dumbstruck: LP pulled it off to achieve 308 edits on 3Feb2016 between 00:00 and 13:14 o’clock. I dare say, with no irony intended: this man must be a genius, an IQ of 140 or more (but, to avoid misunderstandings: being extremely intelligent doesn’t say anything – in my opinion – about ‘being a good person’).
Then, I started to read this discussion I kicked off myself, and was immediately very, very disappointed by already the first reaction of the accused, mr LP. In those only 158 words (16Jan), he manages to tell a lot of (pardon my French) rubbish and seems to be ‘playing the fool’ – very convincingly, I must admit:

• “5Jan,10:13 telling other editors to stay out of a discussion”: No, people. I did not tell anyone to stay out of a discussion, I only asked everyone to leave out of discussions posts that do not address the issue there under debate.
• “Taking the Civil out pf the name has been discussed to death…”. That may very well be a correct statement of LP. The whole point however is: LP should have clearly, squarely and fairly said so IN THAT SCW DISCUSSION SECTION, immediately. Then nothing of this mess would have come about.
• “As for the 2014 activity, that has been mischaracterized…”: ??? how, then?
• ”… and the user needs to get over it.” Thanks; and I really was ‘over it’; until Jan2016, when I got involved in a conflict with some editor, LP, in a way that seemed slightly to resemble an earlier conflict with some editor back in 2014, whose name was … (just checking to see who that was, back in 2014 …) LP!
• “The named editors who were complaining were later blocked for the activity I noted.” That may or may not be so, but is slightly beside the point here. We don’t have time to check all such contentions of LP, especially because he doesn’t conveniently add links or diffs to them to enable us to quickly check them. He thus seems to gamble on us not having the time and intelligence and patience to check every excuse he brings to the fore.

Now, on 24 January, LavaBaron here (above) proposed “a one-year WP:CBAN applied on Legacypac by community consensus on all topic pages covered by the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL case”. I do agree that some sort of ban or block seems the way to deal with the assumed accumulating and long-standing problems with LP’s behaviour. But is that proposal of LavaBaron’s the best option?
8 Supports for Lava’s proposal are from: Lava (‘stealth deletion…’), WV (…but wonders ‘if LP’s behaviour will change outside the banned topics’—that’s exactly my problem with Lava’s proposal), Alansohn (‘…pattern of personal attacks…long overdue’), Lugnuts (per Alansohn), 9795 (per Lugn), Hasteur (‘LP seems to sollicit for suicide by admin’—well, I agree LP really triggers us to react, but I believe topic ban is not the best option to do so), Jacona (‘aspersions…’), UltraE (‘behavior problems as listed here; LP has done good work but now is doing more harm than good’).
4 Opposes are from: kashmiri (‘topic ban is inadequate reaction on civility issue; punitive block of two days is better suited’), NebY (‘CBAN absurd for Neelix affair’), ansh666 (‘topic ban makes no sense’ because ‘LP is right here’—sorry, I don’t understand in what exactly LP is right ‘here’: perhaps the Neelix stuff?), DavidDC (‘LP is brusque, but on content his contributions are often good’—which I don’t challenge: my criticism was never his article content, was always his unacceptable uncivil behaviour; sort-of what Katie says too (16Jan)).

Competing proposal: It seems to me not very logical, not helping, to ban Legacypac only for certain topics: considering his presumed high intelligence and drivenness he’ll probably continue his uncivil behaviour in other topics. This is feared also by WV, and is even confirmed by Lava’s latest discovery(3Feb,17:16) that LP has already had a one-year ban on another topic!
Presuming LP is addicted to Misplaced Pages (as I probably am myself, too, I admit), I think it would be more suitable and better ‘curing’ to simply now block him from Misplaced Pages for just a short time, say one week (kashmiri proposes a block of only two days, I guess that is too short, here. Five days minimum, I’d say). Gives him time to detox, and time to think over his behaviour, and perhaps his ‘sins’, on Misplaced Pages; time to decide for himself if it would be worth while to try on a different, more civil, more polite, behaviour. Then, when he comes back into the community after a week, if he falls back into the same old ‘mistakes’ again, just block him again for a week. And the third time, block him for two weeks. Next time longer. Et cetera. --Corriebertus (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Support in Addition to One-Year CBAN ->edit: as per Hasteur<- for reasons stated in preceding two threads LavaBaron (talk) 20:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I think that LB's conduct is so far gone that it is unlikely they can reform, but per the minimal restrictions policy, we are obligated give them an opportunity to demonstrate their disposition outside of the topic space. Kicking this down the road one week by a one week block after the extended nature of the existing conduct is not sufficent. Hasteur (talk) 21:05, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't really understand this proposal, but throwing around cool-down blocks when you can't really specify what is the problem is certainly not in the best interest of this project, and plainly punitive blocks are verboten. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - LP's behavior does not merit a block. LP does good work, improves the encyclopedia and apparently his blunt style provokes others. In my view, that tells us more about the people who claim his words provoke them. Perhaps this is a case of "Shoefitz syndrome". When LP ridicules the ridiculous, it's possible that the ridiculous recognize themselves and overreact. There's a difference between defamation of character and definition of characters. David in DC (talk) 19:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per David. Best I can say to everyone offended by LP is to grow a thicker skin. ansh666 22:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Elvey - violations of community of imposed TB

Elvey was indefinitely topic banned from COI matters by the community per this. The topic ban started Aug 7 2015 and runs 6 months. Elvey has violated this ban many times, and has been warned once by admin JamesBWatson here and was reminded of the TB last week by me here.

My warning came due to his TB violations in the past month:

• Here
• here
• here
• here
• further back in time, this and this and the coi template edit warring that led to this reminder from an admin on Nov 1., mentioned above. I didn't go further back in time than that.

After my warning, Elvey made the following edits just this morning:

this

this to a section he started claiming COI-driven editing in an article about a drug.

These three edits to the article about David Healy (who writes about COI in the pharma industry), to its section on Conflicts of Interest in the pharma industry, here and here about a "bombshell" and here and went on to add content about the "bombshell" to a drug article, here.

More broadly, he has been pursuing an SPI case about an editor he believes has a COI with regard to drug articles (per this already-presented dif and any others. His pursuit of that SPI case became so disruptive that admin Vanjagenije wrote this: "I now officially ask you to stop participating in WP:SPI. You are not welcome here any more. Your comments are full of insults towards other users who just wanted to understand you and to help This is a huge waste of time."

Elvey has disregarded the community-imposed topic ban. He seems to be unable to deal with COI matters in WP without being disruptive and he has a substantial blog log.

I suggest a 48 block to stop his current run of TB-violating edits, and an extension of his topic ban on COI matters to indefinite, with the standard offer to lift it. Jytdog (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC) (striking per note below Jytdog (talk) 17:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC))

As I understand, his topic ban is already indefinite, and "may be appealed to the community in six months". This does not mean that it expires in six months, but that It may be appealed in six months. So, your second proposal is redundant. And, with respect to your first proposal, I have no idea what is a "48 block". Vanjagenije (talk) 17:26, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Vanjagenije for pointing that out - I have corrected my posting above. I thought the community had been more lenient than it had been. (I meant 48 hours btw) Jytdog (talk) 17:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I understand the topic ban to be with respect to COI as defined here at wikipedia:COI, broadly construed. I will hold off on any further related editing 'till this is clarified. As I am under the ban, I am almost entirely unable to defend myself without violating it, so I will not comment further unless asked. I am proud that opened an SPI on a user who has since been banned for confirmed sockpuppetry and who has no respect for WP:NPOV, though of course Jytdog routinely defends him to the hilt. Jytdog and this user have on occasion done good work. I have attempted to avoided mentioning whether the user has a disclosed or outed (F)CoI as much as possible. Even assuming I have said that I think the user has a disclosed or outed (F)CoI, which I believe I have not, should that immunize the user from my opening the obviously well-deserved SPI on them? I think not. Jytdog fanatically defends this user, who has oft defended him in the past and this ANI is part of a defense strategy that others have noted.***

Jytdog's diffs do not show what he says they show, by and large. And, it's difficult to avoid the occasional unintentional slip. And, I've slipped on occasion; and I apologize for that and am trying not to.

Jytdog is currently edit warring to re-introduce material to support his extremely non-NPOV. This material is unacceptable and in violation of Jytdog's own expressed views on what content is acceptable WRT WP:MEDRS that he has espoused when removing material supported by equally topical sources of equal quality, but which opppose his extremely non-NPOV. (Diffs upon request.)

Recently, I have twice asked Jytdog,"Do you have any alternative accounts?" but he vaguely states, "I have nothing to say" and shut down the thread instead of responding. A sentence in WP:CIVIL says, "Editors are expected to be reasonably cooperative, ... , and to be responsive to good-faith questions." Jytdog, in being unresponsive to this good-faith question, stands in violation our WP:CIVIL policy until he responds.

I have respected Vanjagenije's ban, as much as I disagree with the basis for it. It served to let Vanjagenije get away thus far with being unresponsive to good-faith questions. It is unfounded; I insulted no one; I posed probing, reasonable questions, and commented on behavior, as our policies encourage us to do, but I could have been even more civil, I'm sure.

Dishonesty is on display above, where Jytdog, for the umpteenth time, attempts to reframe a straightforward situation as something else convoluted and 'out of bounds'. The straightforward situation is that I replaced what I perceive (per the ¶ above) to be an "unfounded personal attack" on me with that phrase. I could have used {{rpa}} but wanted different wording. This straightforward action was reverted by Vanjagenije and I was threatened with an immediate block if I removed his personal attack on me again. This is bullying. Reasonable people can disagree as to whether that was a personal attack. I don't think reasonable people would disagree that threatening someone with an immediate block for removing what they feel and can reasonably seen to be a personal attack is reasonable. And its particularly inappropriate of an admin, because we expect them to behave better than average editors and not to act when involved, and here, the attack was by the admin, Vanjagenije. SlimVirgin agrees that he should have considered himself involved.

I would like to get back to editing.--Elvey 17:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

@Elvey: As you probably noticed, this is administrators' noticeboard, not your own. If you edit other people's comments just once more, I will block you immediately. Vanjagenije (talk) 18:06, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Vanjagenije, I don't know everything that has happened at that SPI, but it seems to have angered you, so I think you should consider yourself involved as far as Elvey is concerned. He's frustrated because of the way the SPI has been handled, you're frustrated because he's not doing as you ask, and things are escalating. Now Jytdog wants a ban. Please look up how often Jytdog has asked for blocks and bans in the last two years. We need de-escalation. SarahSV 06:10, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

We need Elvey to abide by his topic ban until he properly appeals it. He never expressed an understanding of why he was topic banned; he makes no acknowledgement here that he understands he has violated the topic ban. We don't de-escalate in those situations. Jytdog (talk) 14:58, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

• In light of my incorrect understanding of Elvey's topic ban I struck my original recommendation above. I think it is important to make a proposal, so I will make a new one. I am asking for a 6 month block for Elvey in light of the above, and his continued disruption here in order to prevent further disruption (e.g editing my post as Vanjagenije mentions above, in this dif. Making it appear that I edited Vanjagenije's quote and called it an "unfounded personal attack" is really out of bounds.) Jytdog (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support some sort of block. I'm not sure what the appropriate length of the block should be, but there are serious issues here. I am going to provide some further specific evidence below. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Boomerang?

Jytdog is currently under an ArbCom-imposed topic ban for matters related to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted

ArbCom found

1. that Jytdog has engaged in edit warring, has belittled other editors, and has engaged in non-civil conduct.
2. Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility.

In discussing Formerly 98, Jytdog is in violation of this ArbCom-imposed topic ban, as Formerly 98 edited in these areas, logically, if I'm in violation of my TB for discussing his edits. (Evidence: diff shows extensive GMO discussion with Jytdog)

Is this an OK place to bring it up? Is WP:AE more appropriate?

Oh, and that's an interesting diff for other reasons too - look HOW Pharmacia & Élan are mentioned! Perhaps some users can edit in alignment with WP:NPOV even despite such employment relationships. --Elvey 17:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• Nonsense I'm afraid your log is much longer than any boomerang you could possess. _Fortuna 17:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

It's not about me. When it comes to Boomerang, it's about Jytdog' violation of an ArbCom-imposed topic ban. Nice try deflecting the discussion tho.--Elvey 18:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

You seem to think it's an automatic right that everyone has at AN/I. This is not the case, and it is patently clear that in fact you are trying to deflect axamination and discussion of your actions; this will, of course, fail. _Fortuna 18:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, it's entirely possible for the boomerang to hit and take both of them out. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:53, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Wouldnt that just be a stick? Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:15, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Ah... the prototype Mk I? _Fortuna 14:11, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

• I do not see any violation by Jytdog here of the topic ban concerning GMOs. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Do you, The Bushranger? I thought this was ANI. Would you be willing to answer my questions: "Is this an OK place to bring it up? Is WP:AE more appropriate?"--Elvey 15:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

And what about the main issue: If I'm in violation of my TP ban because I discussed Formerly 98, as Jytdog claims, then Jytdog is in violation of this ArbCom-imposed topic ban for doing the same. If not addressed here, it becomes ripe forWP:AE. --Elvey 15:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Is it OK for admins to enforce policies on the folks they don't see as sharing their POV, only, and call requests for evenhandedness "disruptive"? Seems to be.  :-( --Elvey 15:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I renew my request that Jytdog to acknowledge the violation, or dispute it. --Elvey 15:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Your claim is without merit. Discussing an editor and his reasons for his behavior around his username/account, and what the community should do about that, have nothing to do with my TBAN. I have not touched on the topic of my TBAN since it was imposed, except at Arbcom. This is a transparent and weak effort at retaliation that is yet more evidence of your generally disruptive behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Questions

Does Elvey's ban indeed extend to anything related to User:Formerly 98, including any articles he edited?
Does it extend to a ban on to any editor ever accused by anyone of CoI?--Elvey 17:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• No. If he does not discuss CoI, articles edited by and issues relating to sockpupptery by User:Formerly 98 are open to Elvey. --Elvey 17:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• BTW, can somebody PLEASE show this editor how to format properly?! That seems to have ben sorted- by everyone else anyway! _Fortuna 17:47, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Related problems

Separately from anything that Jytdog has, or can, present here, Elvey has also shown some very belligerent conduct recently, that violates both the community topic ban over COI (note that the ban covers "COI, broadly construed"), and discretionary sanctions recently issued by ArbCom. The DS are enacted here, and include this principle prohibiting editors from casting aspersions of other editors having COIs on behalf of GMO companies on pages subject to the DS. The page on Glyphosate and its talkpage are in the scope of the DS.

Very recently, Elvey posted this: , at that talk page; note the middle paragraph. Elvey clearly raises an aspersion that another editor is editing with a COI on behalf of GMO companies "with deep pockets". Subsequent discussion: , , , , , , and . Elvey adopts the fantastical position that he is not at all mentioning COI, and that anyone who disagrees with him lacks reading comprehension skills. He is shrill and battleground-y, continuing the behavior that led to his existing topic ban. All of this conduct over time is of a single piece, and it needs to stop. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't see that as a COI allegation. He wrote: "We MUST NOT WP:IAR in order to protect the reputation of big companies with deep pockets, no matter how shrilly or repetitively demands that we do so."

He's expressing the view that an editor is being repetitive and shrill in the defence of a big company that can look after itself, and that we ought not to ignore our policies to suit that company. (I haven't looked at the dispute, so I have no idea whether I'd agree; I'm saying only how I would understand that sentence.) SarahSV 22:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

And he clarified that here and here, at the time, when you wrote that you had understood it as a COI allegation. SarahSV 22:31, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Not credible, in context. No one just comes along "to protect the reputation of big companies with deep pockets" simply out of editorial judgment. It's part and parcel with what the ArbCom case found in other editors. And there was nothing shrill about the other editor, nor, for that matter, do I have a lack of English reading comprehension. Those are not clarifications. They are continuations of the same conduct. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

I point out that the problem with Elvey is not just his fixation on COI or SPI (where topic bans might have some use), but in his characteristic behaviour of belligerence – "shrill and battleground-y" – towards other editors when he feels crossed. As Tryptofish says: "All of this conduct over time is of a single piece....". In addition to the examples from Talk:Glyphosate cited above, note the very similar behavior at Talk:Levofloxacin#Pictures_of_text, which went on to WP:Files for discussion/2016 January_5#File:Levofloxacin-black-box.png, then spilled over to User_talk:Steel1943#January_2016. P.S., there's more at Talk:Fluoxetine#Kapit et seq.

Curiously, "fantastical" is the same word that came to me last night as I tried to characterize Elvey's statements. His understanding of other editors' comments, even of his own behavior, often seems quite skewed (as well as asymmetric). And I suspect he does not understand just how wide of the bases he runs. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:00, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

It has been a while since I sat for an examination of my reading comprehension skills, but I got a perfect score. When an editor (this is fairly common practice, it just happens to be Elvey today) repeatedly makes allusions to opponents that support "companies with big pockets" in the context of a content dispute, they're making a COI accusation. They are aware of this or else they wouldn't couch their wording so. When the same editor then denies it, they are insulting our collective intelligence, such as it is. Here we can find out if we have any. Geogene (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Above, Geogene astutely observed that this case might test the community's collective intelligence. Unless a clear line is drawn to indicate that Elvey's conduct will not be tolerated, then I guess that the answer does not reflect very well on us. No, I'm not going to ping anyone, but I think that it is ridiculous that editors are conflating the legitimate investigation of COI with the dishonest tossing around of COI aspersions without any intention of backing it up with evidence, because the aspersions are being cast in a transparent attempt to discredit editors pushing back against POV pushers. The comments that led me to write the sentence just before this one were subsequently redacted by the editor who made them. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Maybe ANI is incapable of dealing with this and it will end up back at ArbCom, I don't know. But I will say quite clearly to Elvey that you have used up all of your rope, and any continuation will be treated very seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

We need to draw clear lines against a lot of kinds of behavior to show that they will not be tolerated, to ensure neutrality of articles. If the polices and guidelines were actually enforced across the board, without prejudice or bias, then things would work around here. Also note that it is a relative judgment as to who is a POV pusher and who is an editor pushing back against POV pushers. Conjectures as to motivations are also subject to error quite often. The policies and guidelines are clear. We need them to either be enforced equally, or ignored equally. Otherwise, we have biased enforcement, which of course leads to a bias in empowerment of editors, which of course leads to biased articles. SageRad (talk) 14:45, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

If problems with Elvey's editing are under discussion here, then I may as well draw attention to this unfortunate comment by Elvey, which suggests a worrying lack of understanding of or respect for copyright. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

COMMENT: I am an unregistered editor, but would hope that my comments here be allowed to stand: "WikiPedia - the encyclopedia that anyone can edit." Last year, I, amongst other IP editors, was involved in a so-called 'content war' with User:Elvey at the Carlos Castaneda page. I and others had tried to edit erroneous information and spurious references therein, also to post new information that had come to light regarding Castaneda's personal history and regarding some of his critics, only to have User:Elvey continuously revert with a distinct POV bias. In my opinion, I followed Wiki procedure to the letter, explaining my edits in the edit summaries and expounding on the TalkPage, waiting for due diligence before editing, only to have User:Elvey arbitrarily and disruptively revert every edit, whilst accusing myself and others of 'vandalism' and disruption. The culmination of all this was that User:Elvey, together with User:Shii (now inactive) managed to implement a year-long IP editor ban on the Carlos Castaneda page. All the evidence is there on the Carlos Castaneda page and Talk Page and I would like to think that a responsible editor (of whom there are many) would look at this history that I have outlined and revert the ban, which I feel was completely uncalled for. Thankyou for your time. 80.44.144.26 (talk) 23:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Added linkage. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:22, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Continued

• Observation On January 14 Jytdog wrote I'm not taking any action now - just reminding you. Then above he cites 2 talk page entries which are not related to COI, but then took actions to ANI. Though Elvey posted a quote in 1 of these comments which was suggestive. I suggest Elvey should wait for his or her appeal in a couple of weeks before getting involved in COI matters again, including suggestive comments. Since neutrality is very important for Misplaced Pages and given the history of COI edits, skeptical editors are important. Also, at least to me it is unclear if talk page comments are part of the ban. Maybe this could be clarified to reduce confusion. I also note that Tryptofish is not an uninvolved editor in related topics and always defends Jytdog. Suggestion close this thread, no real breach after Jytdogs own warning. prokaryotes (talk) 18:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Prokaryotes, you are illustrating the problem that I described. And no, I do not always defend that other editor, nor do I always criticize editors who take the opposite position in those POV discussions. But your comment clearly casts me in the way that I described, by trying to discredit what I said. In fact, now that we are on the subject, I will point out that higher up in this ANI thread, an administrator was called "involved", who really was not involved. Same problem, not being addressed. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:51, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Procaryotes, in the first dif I posted about post-warning activities Elvey writes about my supposed refusal to acknowledge something and then added the quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” which is a reference to paid editing. I made clear already how the other difs are related to conflict of interest. You misrepresented the difs. Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• just a note. As he did in the last ANI that led to his TBAN from COI, Elvey has mostly gone to ground, per his contribs (although there is this strange bit of activity with a doppelganger account per Special:Contributions/Elveyzilla). I am grateful for the (mostly) lack of drama but this matter does need closing. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:46, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I am concerned that the Elveyzilla activity looks like a possible attack/research page, because it seems to be a copy of the talk page of another user (with the use of a transparent "zilla" alternate account to disingenuously deflect attention from the main account). I am going to ping Alexbrn, and perhaps take the page to MfD. This is yet another concern that I wish administrators would pay attention to. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment I am currently on a public computer and I don't have access to my account. Back in November I noticed that after a self-imposed 2 month break Elvey immediately went back to editing against their ban. I compiled a draft ANI proposal in my userspace here. I will add further comments when I am back at my home computer. I will also bring the links from my sandbox to this discussion with commentary at that time. Adam in MO via --75.132.99.164 (talk) 01:52, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I've spent half an hour reading but i still cannot figure out the reason for the initial ban, and it strikes me as over-reach. Anyway, i'm not sure what to make of this but continuing to watch and try to understand this inscrutable case. What's it about in a nutshell? Is there a summary anywhere? SageRad (talk) 12:28, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I brought the intital case (linked in my OP) because Elvey was disruptively interacting with other editors here over COI issues. I asked for a topic ban and he behaved in such a way that he came within a hair of more serious sanctions, but came away with that. Jytdog (talk) 07:14, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposal

I propose the following resolution:

• Elvey is reminded that accusations of COI must be backed by solid evidence, and that repeated accusations of COI in the absence of such evidence are uncivil and unacceptable. The "pharma shill gambit" has no place on Misplaced Pages. Any future accusations of COI must be made at the appropriate noticeboard, WP:COIN, must be backed by credible evidence, and must not be repeated if rejected unless there is some material change in the evidence. Guy (Help!) 23:31, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I struggle with that Guy but thank you for commenting! has been wind whistling here...... Elvey was already TBANed by the community for acting disruptively in COI matters, and he went right back to it, behaving inappropriately yet more. Your proposal in response to that, replaces the TBAN with something weaker... how that is consistent with anything we do here? Or maybe you think the original TBAN was inappropriate? These are real questions. Jytdog (talk) 07:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Against Sorry, Guy, but that is a terrible idea. We need to move toward stronger action. A community ban is needed here. If we aren't going to give our TBANs any teeth then why have them. Elvey has walked through this COI Tban on multiple occasions and a community failure here would endorse more disruptive behavior.--Adam in MO Talk 11:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Oppose as a step backwards. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:57, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Inadequate. While this discussion arose out of violations of a specific topic ban (re COI), the general problem, as stated at the TBAN, is hounding, and, as noted in this discussion, general behavior across serveral topics. If Elvey only needed reminding of proper behavior a few words would be suffice. That they haven't shows that the problem is deeper than addressed by a mere reminder. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:07, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Oppose user is in clear violation of an existing community sanction. Geogene (talk) 23:30, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Despite my later edits and comments to that text AND SlimVirgin's comments about that? She says it's not what you say it is at all, so how is it "clear"? Like Tryptofish did, you insist on assuming bad faith and saying I'm not credible - that is, I'm lying? --Elvey 21:22, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I "do not know and cannot claim to know" , whether you're lying. But if I were to repeat that phrase twice in a thread, in consecutive replies, it might look like I was calling you a liar, merely by calling attention to the question of whether you're lying. I think that you would be justified in interpreting it that way. However, SlimVirgin and Drmies might not agree. Likewise, by drawing attention to the fact that Monsanto has deep pockets in three consecutive replies, right after mentioning an editor that was ostensibly protecting their interests, doing this three times,, , highlighting it in a nice green color, and especially juxtaposing it with a statement that it's some kind of mystery why that editor supposedly protects someone's interests, it certainly looks like you're calling that editor a shill. This could be some sort of accident on your part. Maybe those particular keystrokes are soothing in some way. It could be that this "deep pockets" thing is some kind of tic or compulsion or some sort of poetry that I'll never be able to appreciate. Whatever. I also don't know why the admins don't see what I'm pointing out here. I know what I'm seeing, but all that can be done is to point it out, and then shut up about it if it doesn't get traction. Geogene (talk) 03:28, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

For the record, I believe accusations of COI must be backed by solid evidence, and that repeated accusations of COI in the absence of such evidence are uncivil and unacceptable. Any future accusations of COI must be backed by credible evidence, and must not be repeated if rejected unless there is some material change in the evidence. No one claims COIN has no issues that hinder its effectiveness and evenhandedness.--Elvey 21:22, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Support per prop prokaryotes (talk) 22:15, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposal 2

• Proposal Elvey is community banned for 3 months with the standard offer for failing to abide by community consensus regarding their COI related edits. In addition to a continued ban on COI, Elvey is banned from participating in SPI related discussion, broadly construed. Elvey can come back to the community after 6 months and make their case for the TBANs to be lifted.--Adam in MO Talk 11:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. To be clear, I understand this to be a community-imposed site ban for 3 months, with topic bans about both COI and SPI (I assume that meant SPI, not SPA), both broadly construed, with the option to appeal the topic bans in not less than 6 months from now. I believe that this is the proper response in the context of the previous community topic ban and the subsequent conduct, and a necessary step to let the rest of us get back to peaceful editing. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I edited the proposal to SPI. My mistake. Good catch. Cheers. --Adam in MO Talk 17:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:10, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support the next step. Geogene (talk) 23:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - given this, a reasonable action for clear violations of current sanctions. OhNoitsJamie 23:30, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Despite my later edits and comments to that text AND SlimVirgin's comments about that? She says it's not what you say it is at all, so how is it "clear"? Like Tryptofish did, you insist on assuming bad faith and saying I'm not credible - that is, I'm lying? --Elvey 21:22, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• I am the OP, and I am fine with this. Jytdog (talk) 15:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• It's impossible to respond adequately while I'm under the ban. However, I've apologized - on this page - for the COI related edits I made. Jytdog claims I didn't even acknowledge them; that's another in a long line of false accusations by Jytdog, which seem to work so well. I was topic banned largely for objecting to misleading presentations of evidence regarding my posts on COI matters. So objecting to the flaws in evidence in this case seems likely to be similalry futile or counterproductive, irrespective of the flaws, anyway. Feels unfair to be facing such a perfect storm.

I have a history of conflict with voters J. Johnson (at Earthquake prediction, where he is very frequently in conflict with other editors), Jytdog, Adamfinmo and Tryptofish. Some of them regularly work closely to support each other or the same status quo POV (which I'm sure they will all agree is a NPOV.)

I see no discussion here justifying the a ban from SPI related discussion, broadly construed. I object to that as unreasonable. I responded, as did SlimVirgin; see ***, above.--Elvey 21:28, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

When you say that we "regularly work closely to support each other", , you are just continuing the conduct that brought you here. Editors can agree with each other without actually editing in a coordinated way. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Elvey certainly does have a history of conflict; that is why we are here. His statement that "some" of us (who, precisely?) "regularly work closely to support each other" is not only false, it is prime example of where he attacks editors rather than positions, and a manifest violation of WP:AGF. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Fact is, I didn't say and don't think that you regularly work closely to support those other users, but could have been clearer. I said you are very frequently in conflict with other editors at Earthquake prediction.

I ask the closer of this (and others) to make note of the way these three users ignore the words "Some" and "or" that surround that misquote. Context matters and yes, I could have been clearer. --Elvey 17:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you could have been clearer, but you were not, and I think that was deliberate. To avoid making an actually false statement you imply that I am part of some cabal, which amounts to deception. If part of your defense against the charge of a TBAN violation is that you are being oppressed by cabal you need to provide specific evidence (such as diffs), not disingenuous aspersions. BTW, which "misquote" are refering to? Tryptofish and I both quote exactly your very words some half dozen lines above. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:20, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. This proposal adds confusion to confusion. I've tried to read the August 2015 discussion in which Elvey was topic-banned, following a proposal by Jytdog, but I can't understand it. (Pinging Drmies, who closed it.) It appears that Elvey was banned from Misplaced Pages discussions about WP:COI. Now Jytdog is back, asking for a total ban because Elvey allegedly violated the topic ban. But he wasn't banned from editing articles about physicians who have challenged COI within the drug industry, etc, which it seems is being used against him. And this comment, which is being cited to support a ban, is ambiguous; I don't read it as a COI accusation. When a comment is ambiguous, we ought not to rely on it to ban someone from Misplaced Pages. SarahSV 21:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

The proposal here was not proposed by Jytdog, so he should not be made the issue. It looks to me that there is a pretty strong consensus in these discussions that there was nothing ambiguous about the glyphosate comments. Artful, perhaps, but very clearly intended to paint Boghog, a good editor, in just the way that ArbCom has said is unacceptable. It's fine if you have a dissenting view of those comments, but it is a dissenting view. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog opened the thread and proposed a six-month ban here. When that wasn't supported, someone else proposed a three-month ban instead. But that Elvey should be banned stems from Jytdog, as did the topic ban in August that Elvey has now supposedly violated. A better solution, if one is needed, might simply be to ask Elvey and Jytdog to avoid one another. SarahSV 22:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Haven't we tried asking Elvey to abide by his TBAN? I provided nearly half a dozen diffs of Elvey blowing through their tban. Asking them to follow the rules doesn't work. It is time to give teeth to the community consensus and let Elvey cool their heals somewhere else for a little while.--Adam in MO Talk 00:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I don't have much of an opinion on the ANI thread I closed--just doing my job, I suppose. However, I agree with you that the one comment on Talk:Glyphosate isn't as unambiguous as it's made out to be. There are more diffs listed below, in a post by Adam in MO, and I don't see it there either. Maybe there's violations in an extended context, but that's too extended for me. I see the violations in the edits to the COI template, sure, but those are from October and the editor was warned. Drmies (talk) 01:39, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, thanks for the reply. If we ignore the diffs from October, where he was warned, we're left with him having edited David Healy (psychiatrist) (who writes about COI in the drug industry) – and I believe mainspace editing isn't covered by the topic ban – and the disputed, I would say ambiguous, diff. Also, Adamfinmo, you seem to have focused quite a bit on Elvey recently, and Elvey doesn't respond well to that. His responses attract more attention, and so on, and here we are. If Elvey and the editors in dispute with him could minimize their interactions, that might be all that's needed. SarahSV 02:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

@Drmies: You will remember that I commented recently that you might be finding GMO-2 on your plate sometime. Let's try not to let things go that far. I'm not sure how much you read of the diffs that I posted, but please let me run this by you: "You, Drmies, must have atrocious reading skills, because we must not excuse Elvey simply because we want to cast aspersions on big companies with deep pockets." OK, I don't actually mean that, but I suggest that you look again at the diffs I posted, with that in mind. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I looked at the diffs you gave earlier--it's a lot of diffs, but it's just one discussion. I do not see there what you want me to see, which is a violation of a topic ban. Also, I cannot really parse your hypothetical insult; too complex for me. There are reasons, I suppose, why one would want Elvey chastised--rudeness, a poor sentence here and there, an obsession with a particular former editor--but I don't see evidence for this particular charge. In addition, the way to prevent ArbCom from having to deal with this or that is not to ban an editor. If there is consensus that Elvey's behavior make them impossible to work with or whatever, propose that--but I cannot see evidence of a topic ban being violated in the Glyphosate discussion (which, by the way, does not lack editors who act like what in worms is "a pore on the worm's side"). Drmies (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Drmies I am pretty confused by what you write, as Elvey has continuously violated his topic ban since it was imposed. I reminded him of his TBAN when I am saw him violating it and that led me to go look for others. I haven't posted this before, but his response to my warning was typical - he basically copied/pasted what I wrote and thew it back at me with regard to my TBAN. When he blew of my reminder (as he had the warning from the admin before back in November) and continued dealing in COI-related matters in WP I gathered diffs going back to October and presented this case. He has clearly blown off the TBAN on a regular basis, and more recently his pursuit of an editor for socking (whom Elvey was convinced was editing under a COI), disrupted things at SPI so much that Elvey was barred by Vanjagenije from participating further. Elvey's continued disruption around COI matters and his ignoring of the TBAN is so clear... Jytdog (talk) 20:08, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand the confusion. Tryptofish asked me to look at some diffs, and I did. I see no violation in those diffs. Their throwing your accusation back at you--that may be rude, or maybe it's appropriate, I don't know, but it's not a violation of this specific topic ban. Now, you all should really leave me out of this: I have nothing to add, I am not aware of these conversations, I don't know Elvey from Adam (I think--certainly from Adam in Missouri). It's not me you need to convince; it's other editors, and you'll need some diffs that are stronger than a rather cryptic comment about deep pockets. Drmies (talk) 20:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I was going to let it go after you told me that you don't see what I see, and I agree with you that this isn't about convincing you. (And I think I parsed that thing about worm anatomy.) It's a tough thing about Misplaced Pages: one of us can feel like they see something as plain as the day, and someone else just doesn't see it at all. And I wasn't simply talking about the community topic ban, but also the DS from ArbCom, so see: this. But for the benefit of whoever it might clarify things, here is what my pseudo-insult was intended to convey: Elvey shouted, repeatedly, that I and other editors lack simple reading comprehension skills, on a page where ArbCom imposed DS. Set aside anything about the TBAN on COI, do we really want that kind of editing environment? Did anything I said or that Boghog said justify that? It's an understatement to pass that off as "rudeness". And I cannot imagine how anything about "protecting companies with deep pockets" means anything other than editors who are "shills" per that ArbCom link I just gave. Do editors protect companies with deep pockets because of editorial judgment? Perhaps someone would protect companies against inaccurate negative material, but the "deep pockets" stuff is clearly an appeal to think that this is paid editing. What is happening is that editors learned from GMO-1 not to say outright that an editor is working for Monsanto, so they have cleverly figured out that if they say it more vaguely, then folks like Drmies won't get it. But that is clearly what happened. And I sure hope that we will nip it in the bud. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I see. Drmies didn't review the case from the very top. Makes sense now. Jytdog (talk) 03:50, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• That is correct: I looked at what I thought I was asked to look at. I see your points about the "deep pockets", of course, but it's vague--that companies have deep pockets is no secret, but a COI allegation should not be about who has the pockets or how deep they are, but about who receives what allegedly comes out of certain pockets of a certain depth. And I am loath, in this case, to impose a harsh penalty on a phrase like that. Again, I understand some of the frustration, I think, and it is entirely possible that some kind of restriction needs to be imposed, but I can't impose this restriction for this offense. Drmies (talk) 17:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that Drmies. If you are willing, I would appreciate it if you would review from the top, and I think that given the context what Trypto is saying might make more sense to you. Thanks for tolerating the request, even if you don't want to. Jytdog (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Watching this from a distance, i am happy to hear this sentiment from Drmies. A specific accusation of COI is one thing, whereas a general statement that there may be an industry agenda at work somewhere is another thing. However, in the course of a dialog about article content there is no place for either, i would think, except for general comments on the shape and trajectory of an article through time. Same would go for saying that "activists" are working on an agenda, as well, for accusations and aspersions of these kinds definitely go both ways. Whether or not the accusation involves money, it still refers to motivations other than good encyclopedic work. SageRad (talk) 19:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Jytdog, Tryptofish, I see the problem with the three or so edits from early January. I do not agree that the Healy edits are a violation, and I do not see the problem with this edit and this edit. Drmies (talk) 19:23, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, I'll try to provide more context.

First let me just note on Elvey's perspective on his topic ban, here:

And Jytdog got me topic banned because I kept on accurately describing what a policy said and people who didn't want me to do that called that disruptive.

So in his view, he did nothing wrong. Which is why, I reckon, he has ignored the TBAN.

One set of his TBAN violations (not all of them) arise because he thinks Formerly 98 is a "pharma shill". (Formerly 98 no longer edits here, for reasons external to WP that affected his ability to be present here, and led him to try (badly) to "vanish" - he ended up violating SOCK) Elvey pursued an SPI against Formerly fiercely, driven by his conviction that Formerly (and I) are pharma shills. Elvey brought up COI matters explicitly in the SPI: dif. As I linked above, Elvey pursued the SPI so fiercely that he got banned from the investigation by Vanjagenije. The discussion where Elvey became disruptive is mostly on the Talk page of the SPI, here.

• in this dif at the SPI he makes it clear that he is movitated by fighting pharma shills, which in WP is all about COI.

• and here again on SlimVirgin's Talk page where he wrote:

  What's the bigger picture here? It's about a cabal fighting a war to, as you have noted, to defend big pharma by what could be described charitably as "any means necessary". It took many users and months of edit warring (not by me) to get any info at all about the incredibly lousy PARADIGM-HF trial despite lots of damn reliable media coverage of this very important topic.

• and that leads to the first dif you said you don't see as relevant, where he wrote:

  I've removed some promotional material that Jytdog had just added.

  The PARADIGM-HF trial made big news, and is the trial that was eventually used to get Valsartan/sacubitril approved as a drug. There was ~some~ controversy about the design of that trial, and the anti-pharma brigade tried to make a big deal out of it in the WP article about the drug. Formerly and I tamped that down. Elvey later came by and opened a section on the Talk page called "This reads like an advertisement, but it's for a very controversial drug (that is a dif to the Talk page) - it is the only thing there. And you can see that Elvey is in pursuit of pharma shills - in other words, COI editing in WP. So that is what the first dif is about. btw The material I added that Elvey called "promotional" was a quote by Steven Nissen, a fierce critic of the behavior of pharma companies, who said the drug was a "a truly a breakthrough approach" and its approval was the most important event in cardiology last year.

• about the second diff, he wrote there

  The way in which Jytdog stubbornly refused to acknowledge, well, anything, at the discussion you linked to (that he, oddly, excised from an article talk page!!!)) shows how extreme his editing is. ....“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
  — ]

  With what I have written here, can you see that he is accusing me of being a paid editor, on the pharmaceutical industry's payroll? I struggle to see how that is not within his TBAN.

• About Healy... that is arguable. Elvey's TBAN is for COI, broadly construed. Healy writes about COI in medicine all the time, and thinks that is why SSRIs are still on the market. Elvey's edit to the Healy article was adding a "bombshell" (his words) article by Healy about COI in medicine. The exact thing he has been focused on here in WP for the last month. In my view it is all of one piece.

• Finally, here is a random diff (of the many that exist) of Elvey stomping right on his topic ban, addressed to me, ironically, under the section header "Paid Advocacy Editing by SPA HealthMonitor":

  Jytdog - Belated ping. I bet you can't get the community to take action against SPA HealthMonitor, who has a disclosed FCOI and blows off that "should not"

Do things look at all different now? Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 08:20, 30 January 2016 (UTC) (note, added a bit. not REDACTing since no one has responded Jytdog (talk) 15:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC))

Oppose Unclear why SPI ban, and 3 month ban for 2 talk page comments, after warning, proposal to far reaching. prokaryotes (talk) 22:14, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

You haven't done your homework. Here is Elvey's very first edit upon coming back from a self imposed break, a violation of the TBAN. Here is another. Three more times, in the same conversation. Then I warned them. An Elvy continued. How much evidence do you need that Elvey doesn't give a hoot about their TBAN or the consensus of this community? --Adam in MO Talk 00:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

As I wrote above, Jytdog who brought this here, gave E a warning on Jan 14 2016, after this i saw two comments on a talk page, as discussed above. After this i am not aware that he/she continued. prokaryotes (talk) 02:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

As I wrote in the original post, Elvey blew off the TBAN early and never stopped - not after he was warned by and admin and not after I reminded him, and even just a few hours ago per this. He cannot let it go. 08:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

While there are gabs, , which should be investigated by SPI, see also this IP edit. also i see that you seem to be involved. prokaryotes (talk) 12:29, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

In fact many of the people who are involved here are also very much the same people involved in the related ANI/COI thing. prokaryotes (talk) 13:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Off-topic from Elvey's behavior and this proposal. You are not addressing his behavior. Of course I am subject to boomerang; please address that above if that is where you want to go. Jytdog (talk) 17:14, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Why shouldn't "many" of the people here come from the COI venue? That is his most recent area of activity and where the topic ban came from, and it is to be expected that the people there are most cognizant of that situation. (I note that one of Elvey's frequent complaints is being judged by editors and admins who are "involved", as if any kind of adverse interaction with him should preclude future comment.) On the other hand, I have absolutely no prior involvement with any COI or pharam topic. My involvement here arises out of similar behavior by Elvey in a totally different topic. Note also the new (23:20) comment by 80.44.144.26 at the bottom of #Related problems, alleging similar conduct at Carlos Castaneda. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:17, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

J. Johnson (JJ), I went to the page and guess what. There is this edit which seems to have been contested by 2 IPs. And then wasn't contested later by other editors, talk is only brief, and besides that appears to be a valid content addition. That people are involved here and in similar disputes is foremost an observation. I value the judgement of uninvolved editors more, given the conflicts and degrees of involvement. prokaryotes (talk) 22:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Is uncivil behavior acceptable if one happens to be "right"? I take no position on the content disputes at Carlos Castaneda, or on the clean-handedness of the editors involved, but point out that on the talk page there Elvey exhibits the same uncivil behavior that got him into trouble at COI. I quote some of his comments: "Amazing tortuous justifications for what's really just sanitization."; "There is no excuse for your removal .... What blatant example of bias that is. Thanks for making it so blatantly obvious."; "What part of ... do you not understand?"; "I don't believe a word of what you've said, either about the article or Sampson and I don't care to spend the time to verify it."; and (again) "Amazing tortuous justifications for what's really just sanitization."

Your position has a tautological exclusion problem: totally "uninvolved" editors, having no interaction with Elvey, likely have no basis of complaint, and thus no reason to be here, while anyone who has been "involved" is (in his view) tainted, and shouldn't be listened to. While most of the people here might have a bone to pick with him, that is very the point: the community finds him to be very aggravating. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:15, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, prokaryotes. All the misrepresentation makes the closer's job a lot harder and a lot more time consuming. I don't envy their position. I ask the closer to speak about the accuracy of the accusations each participant has made - where did and didn't context make what seemed like a valid accusation turn out to be invalid, when investigated? I see allegations by supporters and opposers being challenged on this front. --Elvey 17:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

What misrepresentation? The quotes are accurate, and your comments are prima facie uncivil. If you think there is some context that justifies such language you are free to demonstrate that, but you have not. And without that you are just blowing more smoke. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. The above conversations show continued poor behavior across the board even being under topic ban. That this has occurred in multiple topics drives that point home. In the instances pointed out at the glyphosate article, their behavior also violates the spirit one of the ArbCom principles related to aspersions.Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Casting_aspersions. Issues in other topics unrelated to that only compound the issue. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I find the wording community banned for 3 months with the standard offer confusing. I can interpret it in two ways:

1. The user is banned for three months. During that period, accepting the standard offer may result in the user being unbanned immediately. If the standard offer isn't accepted, the user is automatically unbanned after three months.
2. The user is banned indefinitely. After a period of three months, he may be unbanned if the standard offer is accepted.

If the original topic ban conditions are unclear, then it would be good if this discussion clarifies these conditions. --Stefan2 (talk) 16:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Stefan2, Case number 1 was my intention. When Elvey was initially TBAN they placed themselves on a voluntary block for 2 months. It was my intention to mirror this.--Adam in MO Talk 16:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)--Adam in MO Talk 16:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

The standard offer is that, after six months with no socking, the user can return if they "promise to avoid the behavior that led to the block/ban on't create any extraordinary reasons to object to a return." The six-month period can be adjusted, but what does it mean in the context of a three-month ban proposal? If he says after 12 hours that he promises to avoid, etc, could he be unblocked? And given that he has already said it, can the ban not be avoided altogether?

Adam, it seems to me that, if Elvey says "I did not intend to violate the t-ban but undertake to make stronger efforts not to appear to do so in future," and if the editors he's in dispute with would reduce their interactions with him, then perhaps all will be well, and we can close this. SarahSV 23:48, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

SarahSV that statement would not be an accurate representation of his past behavior. He has disregarded the ban, clearly discussed and brought up and tried to address COI matters, and in addition has disrupted SPI while doing so - and disruption when dealing with COI matters is what got him banned in the first place. The community might want to consider closing this without action if he wrote something like: "I acknowledge that I have violated my topic ban multiple times and that I disrupted SPI while trying to get an editor blocked who I am convinced was editing under a COI. I should not have brought COI into those discussions. I apologize and will stay very clear of COI matters going forward, and I will not argue about the community taking action if I violate my topic ban again." And by the way I do not seek Elvey out - he came after drug articles that have been on my watchlist for a long time. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Sarah, applying or reversing blocks are always up to the administrators. When Elvey first received their TBAN they went on a self-imposed 2 month block. The 3 months, here proposed, were mean to mirror that. I have no intention of interacting with Elvey going forward, as long as their edits remain within community consensus. That consensus appears to be that Elvey should not discuss, comment on, or edit anywhere near COI issue, nor should they be involved in any SPI related discussion, at all. Elvey is a good editor. They have a contentiousness and attention to detail that I'd like to see more widely utilized. But until they are willing to work collaboratively and to stop the contentious edits, it won't be possible for them to utilize their full potential.--Adam in MO Talk 15:24, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, he didn't (so far as I recall) mention COI during the SPI, and indeed didn't at first realize who was behind the IP addresses. The concern was advocacy and the use of several accounts/IPs.

Adam, quite a lot of your edits seem to be related to Elvey, so it would be a good idea to reduce that interaction. At Clear aligners, for example, Elvey added a section on price, which was helpful. You arrived shortly afterwards and removed it, along with a section others had added on the same issue, even though you hadn't edited that article before. (I noticed this only because I've edited that page too, so there may be other examples.) If Elvey sees himself as being pursued, even if you don't intend that, he'll respond poorly and we'll be back here again soon. SarahSV 21:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Sarah: doesn't your suggestion that "if the editors he's in dispute with would reduce their interactions with him, then perhaps all will be well" also run the other way? That is, why not have Elvey reduce his interactions with others? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:30, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

J. Johnson, yes, indeed, it works both ways. The diffs I've looked have involved people arriving at pages Elvey was editing, but if he's doing the same thing to others, that should stop too. If everyone involved in this keeps interactions to a minimum, things will improve, and if problems continue despite that, you can always raise it again. SarahSV 01:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

He does, where he typically charges the other editor(s) that object as WP:OWNing the article. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:56, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Slimvirgin Elvey brought up COI matters in his pursuit of Formerly (I just mentioned these above, but am repeating them here as this has become a sprawl):

• dif. That one is dead on:

  This person has claimed to be a retired PhD Medicinal Chemist and yet recently claimed working (per User_Talk:Vanjagenije) in pharmaceutical development as a medicinal chemist, but now at UCSF, from whose IP space he sometimes posts AND has claimed to have never been paid for editing AND have no COI with respect to pharmaceutical companies.

  Elvey's focus on what he believes to be a COI issue with Formerly is explicit there.

• in this dif he brings the "pharma shill gambit" which in WP is all about COI.

• and here again on your own Talk page where he wrote:

  What's the bigger picture here? It's about a cabal fighting a war to, as you have noted, to defend big pharma by what could be described charitably as "any means necessary".

  That is also pharma shill gambit, which is about COI. I know you agree that Formerly was a pharma shill, as you wrote here at the SPI. But you are not topic banned from COI matters; Elvey is. Jytdog (talk) 08:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• Jytdog, my concern at the SPI was the combination of advocacy and avoidance of scrutiny. Whether COI was behind it, I don't know ("editing in the interests of" was in the sense of "for the benefit of").

Regarding Elvey's diffs, I don't see it in the second or third, but I do see it in the first diff. That seems to be a topic-ban violation, if the ban was on discussing Misplaced Pages and COI. SarahSV 06:30, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

SV, thanks for acknowledging the TBAN violation in the first dif (and btw his TBAN is "COI, broadly construed". Here is the closed ANI if you need to review that). The 2nd dif I cited was sprawling, and I should quoted the relevant bit which is "

the sock, which is infamous for scrubbing articles of information critical of big pharma,...

". In my view, the 2nd and 3rd diffs clearly describing the "pharma shill" claim, in light of the first, show clearly that Elvey was in pursuit of an editor he believed was editing articles under a COI (in the pay of the pharma industry). About your comment, where you wrote

This user edits in the interests of the pharmaceutical industry, and avoids scrutiny by swapping accounts and IPs.

....you are very well acquainted with the COI guideline as you have made 459 edits to it. You know very well the distinctions we make between advocacy and COI, and the language you elected to use there, as you attempted to persuade the people to working at SPI to take action, is very much the language of COI.

As I said, you are free to do that, as you have no TBAN for COI matters. And in any case, sharing a perspective with Elvey, that Formerly was harming WP by editing in the interest of the pharma industry, should not affect your judgement with regard to the fact that Elvey has continually violated his TBAN and, as he did before, was disruptive in doing so, now in yet another venue.

The community has found that Elvey becomes disruptive when he deals with COI matters and it has become clear that he cannot seem to be restrain himself from addressing COI matters. Proposal two is entirely normal in this kind of situation, which is why the consensus of !votes actually looking at his behavior is supporting it. Please reconsider yours.

Editors like Elvey who cannot deal with COI matters well and become disruptive in addressing them, harm the overall effort to address COI in WP, as their behavior gives fodder to those in the community who oppose efforts to better manage COI here. That is why I care about this. Jytdog (talk) 22:05, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, please don't tell me what I'm thinking or what I know very well. If I felt convinced that that editor had a COI I would say so; at times I've thought so and at other times not. And that is not the topic of this discussion.

Re: Elvey, I couldn't support a three-month ban on the basis of that. Bear in mind that when Elvey opened the SPI, he didn't know who was behind the edits. The issue with Elvey is not that he doesn't deal well with COI. It's that he doesn't deal well with issues he feels aren't being addressed properly, or where he feels he's being ganged up on. During the SPI, he began to think that it wasn't being handled the way SPIs normally are, and his suspicions led to repetitive posts and being shrill. And so I do agree that he needs to learn how to handle disputes differently, not become so upset, not be so repetitive. But going straight to a three-month ban is too much. The usual practice is a series of escalating blocks.

He has written below: "I apologize and will stay very clear of COI matters going forward." That should be enough regarding the COI issues, and if he mentions COI again, the topic-ban violation will be clear. What should be clarified, though, is whether it applies to mainspace. I don't think it does or should. In addition to clarifying that, whoever closes this, assuming it is not to ban him, might consider asking Elvey to practice removing himself from a discussion when he starts to feel very upset, or when other people say his posts are becoming repetitive. SarahSV 22:39, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi SV. Per the notes on the case, he opened the SPI under Formerly's renamed account name. See here at 22:38, 5 December 2015. If you look at his contribs, all that day he had been edit warring and arguing with Formerly on the Valsartan/sacubitril article and its talk page, and his last edit on the talk page that day was here where he wrote:

Good. Now log in and stop avoiding scrutiny by, e.g. using multiple accounts/IP addresses on multiple networks

He did know whom he was pursuing. While Elvey may have broader behavioral issues, the point issue that he seems to get especially out of control/emotional when dealing with COI matters. That is why we was TBANed in the original case and why he was yet more disruptive at SPI. I understand that you don't agree about that nor the remedy. And in my view Elvey's TBAN is standard per Misplaced Pages:Banning_policy#Topic_ban -

"Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic."

I don't see what he has done to deserve actually narrowing the scope of his TBAN, nor why you would propose that. Jytdog (talk) 23:59, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not proposing that the topic ban be changed. You opened the topic-ban discussion in August. You requested that Elvey be "topic banned from discussing COI in Misplaced Pages (he is not competent to deal with editors with a COI ...)." You also asked for an interaction ban. The discussion was closed by Drmies as "Elvey has exhausted the patience of the community and is topic banned from COI, broadly construed." Drmies has said in this discussion that he does not see the Healy edits as a violation. Whether he meant that mainspace is not part of the topic ban or that those particular edits weren't problematic, I don't know. I'm arguing only that we should clarify whether the topic ban covers mainspace. SarahSV 01:40, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Re: the SPI, there's no indication that Elvey knew who it was at first. He opened it under one of the IP addresses. MikeV archived the case on 6 December under that address. Berean Hunter moved it to the name on 20 December. SarahSV 02:09, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hm, the history of that case is really confusing. I do know where Elvey was just before he opened it, and I can see on this this page a big note that says:

Please note that a case was originally opened under Renamed user 51g7z61hz5af2azs6k6 (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/169.230.155.123.

. All this is weeds. The key thing is that the case arose at the Valsartan/sacubitril article where Elvey was already concerned about COI/whitewashing editing, per the header he placed on that page. Elvey knew right away, or soon after, that his target was Formerly, whom he believed had a COI, and he acted in a disruptive way as he was told by two SPI clerks there before he was finally banished for disruption on the associated talk page. (those two warnings here and here). Jytdog (talk) 03:16, 1 February 2016 (UTC) (amended this; didn't redact since there has been no reply Jytdog (talk) 18:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC))

Support per OhNoItsJamie. 97.95.68.240 (talk) 03:02, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

The first of this IP's 2 dozen edits (edit summary "Warning of copyvio" using {{Copypaste}} and then many ANI edits) suggests this may be an experienced (banned?) user socking and performing administrator -like tasks. But my hands are tied; I'm banned from opening an SPI case. Can someone do something? (Also, voting in an archive!) --Elvey 16:44, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh boohoo. Complaining about an IP who likes to help out across this encyclopedia. Not connected to any accounts whatsoever. 97.95.68.240 (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Support - it's all the community can do in the face of the TBAN violation. Alexbrn (talk) 14:24, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - per SarahSV. I see serious issues in this case, with many of the same editors in the recent ArbCom GMO case in alignment here to "punish" an editor they don't like. I call on a completely uninvolved admin to close this, and dispense trouts as needed. Elvey has issues, but those casting the stones are not without their own. Jusdafax 16:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Jusdafax your vote doesn't deal with the fact that there was a topic ban nor with Elvey's ignoring of it nor with the actual disruption he caused (again) while pursuing the topic he was banned from. As you wrote there, clearly the politics are what are important to you here. Jytdog (talk) 19:07, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The last time you directly addressed me, in a disingenuously-worded, vaguely threatening reply to a notification on your talk page, it was already clear you were cruisin' for a bruisin', and indeed, after your spite-naming of me as a party to the GMO Arb-Com case, which you have never supported or had the common decency to explain, you have been blocked, as well as admonished by ArbCom for abusive editing and topic-banned. "What's important to you here" you say. How dare you. It's very clear, given the record, what you are up to, and I have warned you before, which you saw fit to ignore, so I now formally warn you to stop harassing editors who don't think or edit in a way that you personally approve of. Your attacks on Elvey, in my long experience since you first posted on my Talk page, are demonstrably motivated by bad faith editing, which, again, I have pointed out to you before, when you have attacked others. You face further blocks and sanctions if you do not stop. Get real, dude. Jusdafax 20:49, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Your comments only reinforce the validity of my remark that your !vote did not address Elvey's behavior regarding his existing TBAN and clarifies that it was really about your dislike of me. Thanks for clarifying that. Jytdog (talk) 21:26, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Judasfax: The specific "issue" here is violation of a TBAN, which (aside from Elvey's counter-charges against Jytdog) is not an issue with anyone else. Perhaps you would excuse his general incivility because he doesn't feel enough love, but I think cause and effect actually runs the other way. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:44, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Oppose This appears to be personal for Jytdog. Look at the way he attacks here just now, where he joins a discussion where I am mentioned just to spend nearly 500 words on an ad hominem attack on me. Opening and pursuing the (valid!) SPI on his banned friend, Formerly 98, was appropriate; 99% of my edits in that regard are not a violation of the TBAN, as I see it, but I acknowledge that my discussions with V in and about the SPI, I pointed out what I saw as numerous policy violations by him and that he saw those as disruptive and he used the mop to ban me from SPI. (I opened #Questions, which I urge the closer to address, and later realized V doesn't have the authority to make that unilateral ban there, though I'm still respecting it as he could probably still get away with enforcing it.) Here is the comment Jytog proposes I make, corrected for accuracy: "I acknowledge that I have violated my topic ban multiple times and that I opened an SPI (on a user Jytdog is so close to he shares their private communications) and that at one point (this was a very long discussion) mentioned, in a quote, that another editor was convinced Formerly 98 was editing under a COI. I should not have brought COI into those discussions. I apologize and will stay very clear of COI matters going forward" --Elvey 16:30, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

elvey, this ANI thread is about your behavior violating your TBAN. Bringing evidence of your behavior, is not an ad hominem attack. About the SPI case itself - there was a valid SPI case against Formerly as I have acknowledged; however your pursuit of Formerly was due to your conviction that he was editing under a COI - that he is a pharma shill. Could you have done all that work on the SPI without explicitly violating your TBAN? Probably.... But would you have launched that SPI to shut down a "pharma shill", if you were really honoring your TBAN and not dealing with COI in WP? I don't think so.

None of this is "personal." You are disruptive when you try to deal with COI in Misplaced Pages. You have shown that yet again by disrupting SPI - and you are still not accepting that you were disruptive at SPI. It is not good for the project for you to try to deal with COI in Misplaced Pages. That is why the original TBAN was put in place by the community and why the community is proposing to extend the TBAN to include SPI. You have not heard what the community is telling you. Jytdog (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin, I looked over the original ANI discussion again. The first proposal, by Jytdog, specific "topic banned from discussing COI", and I think that phrase guided the rest of the discussion. The actual proposal I cited, and you'll note I cited it since I did not know how to rephrase it, said "topic banned from COI"; this was Georgewilliamherbert's phrase, and I wonder if they simply forgot a word. Now, on the one hand, I think that when it's not so clear we should be conservative, and thus limiting the topic ban to non-article space makes sense. On the other hand, if the editor were to start slapping COI tags on articles, I have no doubt that to other editors this would be as disruptive as the other edits were. After all, planting a COI tag on an article is basically saying "there's a COI here", and one would expect the tag to be explained on the talk page.

  To put the whole thing in another way, it would be very unwise for Elvey to skirt around the boundaries of the topic ban. Drmies (talk) 03:59, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Drmies, my understanding of the discussion in August was that Elvey had become disruptive around COI editing on Misplaced Pages. That was the ban that was requested. Content editing is not related to discussing COI editing on Misplaced Pages. Adding a COI tag to an article is another matter: that involves stepping out of content and going meta, so it would be covered by the ban. Someone might argue that these distinctions are easily missed when someone is upset, so to avoid future mishaps the ban should cover content. I suppose it depends on how much self-restraint Elvey can exercise, and in fairness to the complainants here, his track record isn't good. Still, it seems to me that if COI is one of his interests, and if there are articles about COI that need work, that would be a useful thing for him to do, so I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but to extend the ban to content at the first sign of a boundary violation. SarahSV 04:51, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• It's also a question of being smart about it. I removed what I am sure is a kind of COI edit earlier tonight, but an edit summary could just say "not properly verified" or "far from neutral" or something like that. "Rv COI edit" would be the worst thing they could do. (This is what I was referring to: a kind of overlap between content editing and discussion.) And for those who think I am proposing a kind of cheating--no, from what I can tell the disruption was caused by their way of discussing COI and suspected COI. Either way, the area Elvey apparently needs to strengthen their skills in is control and diplomacy. Goes for a lot of us, of course. Drmies (talk) 05:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, it's a question of keeping his eye on the ball if he edits in those areas, and not wandering into "rv, but I'm not allowed to say why." SarahSV 05:57, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Looks like another attempt to silence the opposition, as happened before in that field. The Banner talk 04:09, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know of anyone other than Elvey who has been topic banned for COI matters. Weird. Jytdog (talk) 04:35, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose mostly per Sarah's thorough analysis appearing in the above discussion. Generally, I'm not impressed with the claim there's a violation of the topic ban. At worst, it's a technical violation that should result in Elvey being instructed that the conduct violated the topic ban (and it looks like there's some question as to whether it does). Going this far on the basis of what's been presented just looks punitive. I disagree with the assumption that a siteban is the next step in the ladder. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 05:06, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Mendaliv did you read the difs at the very top? In every one of them, Elvey explicitly discusses COI of editors and they all came after his TBAN was imposed. I feel like i am in the Bizarro World where a thing is its opposite. Here they are again:

• Here
• here
• here
• here
• further back in time, this and this and the coi template edit warring that led to this reminder from an admin on Nov 1., mentioned above.

How can you call each of these not a violation? And that is just a partial sample. And doesn't even get into his disruption of SPI. Jytdog (talk) 20:54, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Should "result in Elvey being instructed..."?? How much instruction does he need? Do note that in this reminder from an admin Elvey was told: "all the relevant issues have been explained to you in the past, some of them repeatedly, and that you have a frequent habit of contemptuously dismissing messages from other editors about their concerns regarding your persistent disruptive editing, so there is no point in explaining them to you yet again." Note also in Elvey's last comment (above) how his ostensible apology is "corrected for accuracy". It seems to me that all of the instructions and warning he has been given he interprets "corrected for accuracy". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Reluctant support I appreciate Sarah's general emphasis on mediation and de-escalation, but at the end of the day, I just don't see Elvey's violation of his topic ban as being as ambiguous as she (and some others) view it. There are instances of Elvey making direct reference to COI/COI discussions and other comments about "salaries" (be they even quotes) are hardly oblique. Topic bans are not trivial sanctions--they are only issued when behaviour has become deeply disruptive, and then generaly as a last-ditch effort to preserve an editor's positive contributions while curtailing the disruption which accompanies their involvement in a given topic area or process. If a contributor violates the community's effort to isolate their disruption in order to facilitate their continued involvement, then the community has run out of intermediary options and must default to the more general ban that we hoped to avoid as necessary to demonstrate that the balance of the editor's involvement no longer favours the good of the project.

We can parse Elvey's language at length here on technicalities if we really want an excuse to keep them on, but assuming that we view the original topic ban as a valid community sanction, many of the diffs above do represent a continuing inability in this user to disassociate from the area the community clearly directed them to avoid; that is, a self-directed personal mission to counter behaviours in other areas which they perceive as the result of financial motivators. Whether (or how often) they use the exact words "conflict of interest" is really rather incidental here. The question is whether they still feel compelled to root out the influence of corporations on this project, by either providing or commenting on "evidence" of these influences, an activity the community has explicitly directed them (Elvey) to desist from. I hate to oppose concilatory efforts like those SV is proposing, but, in this instance, I think the user in question needs a firm reminder that they cannot just defy community will on a whim, especially when that will manifested in an effort to try to preserve their participation here. A one- or three-month ban seems the appropriate means to make that point. Snow 08:40, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I think that comment does an excellent job of laying out what really matters here. Well-said, and thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Except that what "really matters here" is not Elvey's apparent obsession with COI or supposed sockpuppets (and for all I know these could be legitimate issues), but his mode of interaction with the rest of the community (ss demonstrated on these and other topics, and even in this discussion), and his persistent failure to hear this. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Being hassled by User:Matt Lewis

I don't really like bringing this here, but user:Matt Lewis has been threatening to "report" me, so I thought I'd better just do it myself.

Matt made an edit to Naturopathy that introduced new, uncited claims and brought the lede into conflict with the rest of the article https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Naturopathy&type=revision&diff=700163445&oldid=698665542, so I reverted it https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Naturopathy&diff=next&oldid=700163445. My edit summary was maybe a little brusque "No. Adding vague qualifiers doesn't help", but it wasn't wrong, and I wasn't trying to be rude.

Anyway, he came back with a screed on my talk page, threatening to report me for, amongst other things, bullying. I tried to better explain why I had reverted his edit, and pointed out that having a go at me wasn't OK. That got a much longer screed about all the things I supposedly do wrong on WP and how terrible the Naturopathy article is. I told him if he wanted to do something to the Naturopathy article, he should take it to the naturopathy talk page, and he replied with another threat to come to ANI. So, here I am. PepperBeast (talk) 02:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Accusing people you disagree with of "bullying" is the flavor of the month. People seem to think it's some kind of magic word by which they can "win" their dispute, but generally it's grossly misused. BMK (talk) 02:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Does that observation actually add anything to this case? I've heard it before, and I wonder sometimes if it doesn't rather work the other way. I would agree that threatening ANI is not generally appreciated, but what I actually did was told PepperBeast it was certainly going to happen.. but when I could find the time. Perhaps not the best way of doing it in retrospect, but he could have just backed down and apologised you know - that can work wonders in situations like this. What is certainly a fact here is that I got quite upset and I let it show. I had nothing to gain from creating an ANI in terms of the article or anything - ie it couldn't have been pitched against PepperBeast doing anything, except perhaps apologise. Please don't assume that it was. My personal ANI would have actually centred around a point that I am raising below instead... Matt Lewis (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with BMK that there are various flavors of the month that are yelled in order to try to "win" a dispute. It is also popular to yell "vandalism" in order to "win" a content dispute. Yelling usually doesn't help, especially when what is being yelled is wrong. There are a few editors who like to yell "bullying". Sometimes yelling "bullying" is done by bullies. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

If that's all it were, I probably would have ignored it. PepperBeast (talk) 02:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm finding it all a bit mysterious in how much I'm supposed to have done. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• Phew. I was going to say bringing this to ANI was a bit knee-jerky, but wow, those posts are both nonsensical and way over-the-top. I'm also surprised to see that Matt Lewis is an established editor with nearly 10K edits (though only a handful of those since 2011). What really disturbs me is this excerpt: Look if you don't respond to me sensibly here and apologise, I promise to you that I will report you for doing this. It's simply a matter of principle. I made ONE SINGLE EDIT to an article - a very good one - and someone (not even you so why are you here?) quite-antagonistically reverted it without properly explaining why. And you have effectively given me a low-key Warning. And you too have not shown me where and why. I simply re-worded a very-biased paragraph to be a little less obviously biased. The only link you have given me is "Referencing for beginners"! I joined this place 10 years ago - don't you realise that you aren't supposed to treat people like that? I'm just not sure about this. Matt Lewis definitely needs to take a chill pill, though. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 04:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• I was the one who issued the warning, which of course caused Matt Lewis to share his vitriol with me too. I also found his words quite over the top. I got the impression that his threats were empty but also baseless, so I'm not sure there is anything really to be done. Delta13C (talk) 07:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• I was going to let it ride, but he was back this afternoon with "I'll see you at ANI and it should be this week, if not the weekend. The problem with the Discussion page is your propensity to say "No." to normal polite people there. It does the very opposite of inviting discussion. It's important and I want someone to tell you to stop it." I'm feeling rather put-upon. PepperBeast (talk) 07:30, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• My take at this point is that Matt Lewis should have had it made clear to him that his conduct in this case is unacceptable, especially for an editor with his experience. Certainly, more voices explaining that would be helpful, but the take-away for Matt should be to dial back the vitriol, because a repeat of this sort of incivility can and should result in strong sanctions. In short, this thread should serve as a final/only warning. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 08:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Matt Lewis does not appear to have edited since this thread began, but I concur with your read - his reaction is not acceptable conduct. I worry about the response we will get when he does come back and comment here - it may likely be more of the same. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I’m sorry but I think you are just wrong to voice that here. It’s negative speculation and I find it somehow prejudicial. I haven't said anything yet...

Ok, I am a person with very strong values, and I feel that needs to be said first. I’m not particularly good at interfacing and making friends here etc, but I am normally very collegiate I promise you. I can get into occasional scrapes though and I'm probably not particularly liked. I certainly don't scrub my personal pages enough. When will I learn? But I promise you that I do not look for incidents like this, and I do not ever want to see them. I come here either to read or to edit. Looking at some comments above, I've seen some advice has already been given for some kind of punitive ruling towards me. But before people get ahead of themselves, can anyone here tell me how bad my conduct has been, and actually provide actual examples of the areas I have been unfairly or even unduly upset? No one has yet addressed my position in this case, or my point. It's actually a weirdly pre-emptive ANI. But I will accept any point where I have personally gone wrong. Why would't I?

A few days ago on the Sat 17th I made one (ie nothing to wave sticks at), in an article I’ve never edited before or since (so absolutely no reverts etc) and the next day it was removed and I was basically Warned for making it. It could have been the case that Delta13C thought I was a sockpuppet. If so, he or she was wrong - and that would be a simple AGF matter, soon resolved hopefully. The problem is that I felt that the Warning, combined with the "No." that Pepperbeast gave me when removing my single contribution, meant that ‘a Level 2 Warning’ was on the cards for anything similar that I may have contributed. I felt I was being told to 'back off' basically, and I didn't like the feeling at all. It felt threatening, and that is why I reacted as I did. I saw a very valid improvement to make to the article here. I made one decent-enough edit (better than what was there for sure), and am always willing to work on things when people treat what I’ve done with due respect. It’s not the removal of my contribution that is the problem here (or 3rr or anything like that) – it’s how my contribution was dealt with.

In terms of ‘harassment’(!) of PepperBeast (who I do find very cocky and rude I'm afraid), I made one admittedly-upset and fairly-long comment on his Talk page, and then left one very short reply after he responded to it. I admit that I am prone to longer comments – I can’t help that, and I’m sorry. But please people - don’t be too rude about that, it’s just the way it is. It's partly a time thing - I don't really have the time to shorten myself, and I always begin big. But yes that was all it was – two comments to him, one long, one short. How can that be "harassment"? PepperBeast has also suggested that he’s started this ANI because I said I would make one myself (which was to be in part about patrollers in general). Is this really the right way to treat ANI?

I wasn't going to create my own ANI today (I suggested I was too busy at the moment to PB when I gave him my timeframe), but I have to find the time respond to this particular ANI now. I accept he wasn't going to be ecstatic bout having a pending ANI hanging over his head, but I'm really busy (as a carer who works all hours) and ANI's like this one really do force people's hand – as mine has been forced here. So I don’t think it was right of him to do this for a number of reasons. There were plenty of other options for him. Certainly no harassment was around. I think this is all about respecting the real-life lives of the various people who make edits to this place.

Now please - I genuinely would appreciate knowing what exactly I did wrong in the first place, including regarding Civility in my reaction to the very-antagonistic reception my single contribution received. I can’t always help being annoyed, but I do want to help being “uncivil”. I believe I have a very clear point indeed here, and as I suggested on , my own ANI was actually going to question the correct attitude for 'patrollers' in general, and whether there shouldn’t perhaps be a ‘code of conduct’ in their behavior to people - including new accounts, returning users (like me), IP's etc. Basically to avoid upsetting decent well-meaning people, and especially in delicate areas surrounding health. I think ‘curt reverting’ (to give it a name) can be an extremely negative thing for Misplaced Pages. I’ve already explained this to Delta13C, after he apologised for his Warning upsetting me. I accepted that apology and moved onto discussing content, as he suggested, and as can be seen. I wanted this level of conversation to be on my talk page really (or the article's), but it ended up on PBs as Delta replied to me there instead of on my own. I couldn't do anything about that, obviously. I'm entitled to respond to someone under their comment, and I already told Delta that is what I always do - but he says that he missed me asking for that. So there was two conversations going on PB's page. I didn't personally see any bother though. I did feel these two people are a bit too connected with each other, though.

Yes I'm sorry, but I did originally see PB and Delta13C as ‘tag-teaming’ in some sense – because it was the only way Delta’s out-of-the-blue Warning made any sense to me. I simply assumed that one of them says “No.” to an edit he doesn’t want, and the other “Warns” the user. You have to admit that is basically what happened, with no policy-based reason behind that I can see at all. Isn’t that the basis on an ANI issue? ie unless it got sorted out otherwise?

I have to say that if Pepperbeast simply apologized as Delta13C quite-easily did (though he is rather rough on me here), it would have all been fine. I have never turned away an apology from anyone on Misplaced Pages. But I began quite upset and I think I had a right to be. My edit was in good faith and ALL content edits take some time. Removing text takes only seconds. People really do sometimes forget that here – the actual time that ALL content-makers put into this place. I believe it is wrong to be curt to people who have taken the time to make an edit like mine. Especially in areas like this to be frank. I’ve felt in that past that Misplaced Pages somehow tolerates rudeness to people in the area of alternative medicine. It that right? The oft-maligned ‘Misplaced Pages is Not the Truth’, general Policy, AGF etc – it all points to the same thing; find the right balance because you do not need to judge. I can tell you from experience that these people are usually ill, often with cases where conventional medicine is sadly not really working for them. You’ll be surprised how many people turn to herabalism especially. In certain cases I've even seen them pointed there sometimes (with the usual provisos), when doctors reach the end of what they can do. Placebo? Who knows. When the results /sup>are really good they are soon taken up by the pharmas. But those are still used by the herbalists though. Why don't we give thse vulnerable people a break and stop being so cold and nasty to them so often? I’m not personally associated with any alternative health, nor do I lean towards any of it really - though a chiropractor did once manage to sort my back and I'm a big fan of 'good food'! I think it's just wrong to assume that people are ‘involved’. All I did was make a simple edit. I didn’t deserve to be effectively warned away. I think I just editied perceived 'protected content' that really didn't deserve to be protected, that's the underlying story here. And it was protected far too overzealously - that's the bottom line.

Regarding this ANI, the obvious question for me to ask is where is the actual "harassment" I'm accused of giving? I haven't harassed anyone, I never will and never have. It’s a particularly bad thing to do in my opinion. PepperBeast has also suggested he created this to ‘pre-empt’ my ANI, and he seems very confident about it doing it too. This confidence really concerns me to be frank. Do I not have a right to be concerned about him? I personally think that the over-exuberance of some change-patrollers can actually be a negative thing for the act of encyclopedia building. I certainly don't feel like I made my edit on a level playing field in this case, or that my edit was valued in any way at all. I think there could be a problem that some editors with particular 'jobs' can see themselves as being on a higher plain to others, and perhaps even subject to a slighly different ruleset. I think it's a problem for this place: a place I can promise you that I've always tried to help improve.

If this response is seen as "more of the same" (I'm at a loss with that one I’m afraid), it's because I actually have a point isn't it? I won’t be making my personal ANI now though - and actually, how can I? My question regarding patroller conduct is raised here instead. Someone perhaps could think about it if they want. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• I'm not going to apologise to you because I haven't done anything wrong. Your edits are not sacred and I did my best to explain to you what I thought was wrong with that particular edit.
• I don't know why you keep saying "harassment", when, in fact, I deliberately avoided what I think is kind of over-the-top language. I said you were hassling me and threatening to take whatever your big problem was to ANI. Well, here we are.
• Actually, you made two long comments, the first, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3APepperbeast&type=revision&diff=700317501&oldid=696396936, starting with If you ever use language like that towards me again on the edit table I will simply have to report you. You don't seem to realise how utterly wrong it is, so at some point you will need to be told. It combines incivility with abusing Misplaced Pages's core values. It leaves a stink and ultimately works against the encyclopedia. It's bullying really. After I replied to that, you came up with a second, much longer rant https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3APepperbeast&type=revision&diff=700373035&oldid=700356227, and finally, you repeated your ANI threat. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3APepperbeast&type=revision&diff=700851858&oldid=700407744 I'll see you at ANI and it should be this week, if not the weekend. The problem with the Discussion page is your propensity to say "No." to normal polite people there. It does the very opposite of inviting discussion. It's important and I want someone to tell you to stop it.
• I am not responsible for Delta13C's warning, or anything else that Delta13C does. I have no idea why you think I am "too connected" to Delta13C or even what "too connected" means.
• My talk page is not a place for you to rant about everything that's wrong with WP.
• Seriously, lay off the personal attacks. PepperBeast (talk) 22:42, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

You know, you made this ANI a lot more personal than I was intending to do with mine. Yes I did make a mistake above, missing the my middle response to you. You called my angry reaction a 'personal attack' (does that ever make things better?) and said my edit contained Weasel Words, which doesn't make sense to me in this case, as I explained. In my opinion the reading of the term and the refs contains Original Research. I mainly addressed the content of the edit and my feelings surrounding it. If you feel that my explaining my own views over a content issue that you've addressed yourself constitutes a 'rant' and a point of harassment (or 'hassle' as you actually did say, but in terms of an ANI people are obliged to see it as the same thing), I would say that's very subjective, and hardly an issue for an ANI complaint. Btw, your point about the Intro needing to be so decisively negative because the rest of the article is so singularly negative (or has become so perhaps), is actually a very complex one. And as I've said, I've always felt that imperfect improvements should be improved upon, not given a straight denial. 10 years ago I think that was far more likely to be the case. As I remember it, people were much more inclined to edit or hone things out in turns, and the general atmosphere was far more productive. I’m sure that articles like this one contained more balance then too – albeit with various issues surrounding weight and wording. It's quite rare to see a perfect first edit anyway, isn't it? What you've got to ask is, does the contribution improve and progress or advance things? I think that over the years Misplaced Pages has become too much of a static shop front, but these kind of articles are nowhere near good enough yet. Very often when I use Misplaced Pages I see broken or misrepresenting links and failing statements, and they certainly exist in this article still.

So yes I can see that I fully responded to you twice, and not just the once as I said above - but with this ANI you really forced my hand here when I effectively said I wasn't ready yet. And it's an awkward hour right now. I can only find pockets of time, and in no time some people call for beheadings in these places - ANI's can be quite OTT at times they really can(!) I've got someone now asking for sanctions over my supposed "screeds". Look, I apologise if I got it wrong about you and Delta13C being a 'tag team'. But you did manage to appear like one, which I am sure you can see if you really looked at it. Look at your sharp and conclusive 'edit note' followed by his completely out-of-the-blue warning. But that was just an unfortunate sequence perhaps. And also unfortunately, Delta13C did make his reply to angry-me not on his own 'Warning' section, but on your Talk page instead - even though I clearly asked him to keep it all in the same place. It was wrong of him really, and it was another thing that made it look like you were 'combining' to me.

I do think my points on patroller etiquette are very much still valid though, and that is what my own ANI would have focused on. If you simply apologised for being so 'owny' (saying "No." to me over this Intro basically, as you did to the other guy on the discussion page) I would never have gone onto make an ANI of course - as I said. I think most ANI's can't really be done when someone's apologised. I may still have dropped-off my thoughts on patrolling in some relevant discussion page somewhere however, like I used to do with these things (the Patrollers page or whatever). And finally, surely no one should ever be above apologising here, but you will know that I'm sure. And it's especially the case when you know someone wants to hear it surely. It should be just standard practice when you've done something 'off', and you can surely still make all your points after doing it, and in whatever way you choose. It worked between Delta and me (though he hasn't quite continued the sentiment here unfortunately for me) and it would very-easily have worked for us. Sorry I called you cocky and rude above, but I do think you could perhaps come down just a step to my humble editor level. Matt Lewis (talk) 08:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I thought your comments on my talk page fell a little short of being personal attacks. Calling me rude and cocky here, however, does not. I'd accept your sort-of apology, but you're still haranguing me for some kind of mea culpa for undoing a single edit, and it's not going to happen. PepperBeast (talk) 09:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, you did call it a 'personal attack', and I took you up on it and talked of ANI if you didn't apologise for your attitude. I was pissed off! It was purely the way you made the revert that upset me - curtly saying "No" (the rest of the edit note is more complicated to deal with, and this isn't the right place to talk of article-balance or strict Intro rules re the rest of the article.) You'd never seen me before, and I'd made one single edit! And of course I was immediately Warned by Delta too, which doubled my anger to the "pissed off" level you saw. It was not the fact you reverted that really angered me at all. As I've said below, you have to expect quite a lot of full reverts in Misplaced Pages these days. I've certainly never asked for an apology from someone for doing that. It was the way you reverted, and the way it all happened wasn't good. It felt like I was being warned away. Surely you can both see that now, to some degree at least? ie after it happened - though not at the time perhaps. I admit it was bit paranoid of me to see you as 'tag teaming'. Tbf, I think you should have seen my point of view, and maybe apologised the way Delta did instead of making this ANI. I'm sure I wouldn't have done anything then, despite the point I wanted to make on patroller etiquette and the need for it. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Sanctions may be needed Matt Lewis has made it clear that he is unwilling or unable to take on board the criticism of his conduct that has come out of this thread. The huge rant (10 KB!!!) he posted in this very thread is combative, suggests his prior combativeness was a desire to prove a point (?) along the lines of WP:DTTR, and in general displays an attitude reminiscent of the Misplaced Pages of eight or nine years ago. Misplaced Pages does not need to drive off new editors, and I question whether someone who snaps at established editors over a templated warning would react much better towards an inexperienced user who actually does post an unfriendly message at his user talk page. I just get a terrible feeling about Matt Lewis at this point. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 01:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

10KB!!! Huge rant! Oh come on Mendaliv. It's takes about 2 minutes to read out loud. I write the length I write and I apologised for that when I wrote it. If you don't like it, don't read it, or just don't read it all perhaps. Don't you think you are being bit over the top yourself here? If you really have a "terrible feeling" about me, maybe you need to take that "chill pill" you recommended to me above over another 10k post! They are just a long posts. Give me any amount of longer posts over a typical group of sometimes completely needless comments and I'll show you which take up less k. Some Misplaced Pages pages can seem to go on forever, but it won't often be down to the longer posts. As anyone who knows me on Misplaced Pages will tell you, if I ever write anything at any real length it's always constructive. I really do feel that Misplaced Pages risks driving off new and even old editors at times. I don't see how you can categorically say it doesn't. It’s just my opinion, and it's not a crime to have one surely (unless I've missed anything truly radical the past year or so). As I just suggested to PepperBeast above, I think that 10 years ago in certain ways Misplaced Pages was actually a more productive place. Not in every way of course not, just in some. And I never said any solution was easy did I? Discuss, absorb.. or ban? Matt Lewis (talk) 08:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Why are you being so aggressive? I seriously think there's something wrong here if you think this is an appropriate way to respond. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 09:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

It's not really 'aggressive' is it? Look at your comment towards me again please. Is it really the right way to approach this? Matt Lewis (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Have to agree the reaction here seems OTT. And I'm someone who does often write long posts and can be quite aggressive in defending myself. Probably the warning wasn't necessary, but I imagine an article like Naturopathy does often have problems with well meaning editors who support naturopathy but don't understand our sourcing and other requirements. And while looking at the long term contrib history or perhaps the long talk page of Matt Lewis may suggest that they are not new and didn't need such a warning, a quick look at the contrib history may not clear things up so much. Ultimately I guess, if you are an experienced editor and don't need a warning, then it's not like there's some harm in receiving one. If you're not an experienced editor, then receiving a warning served to inform and also makes it difficult for the editor to claim they weren't aware of our policies and guidelines.

I do agree improvements with mistakes that can be easily corrected should be corrected rather than simply reverted. In fact I got in to a minor dispute with another editor over this about a week ago (not much about my edits). But on the flip side, sometimes edits are problematic enough that even if you think there is some minor improvement in some area, it's better just to revert and require the improvement to be far better. Colloboration can sometimes mean "sorry that's just too bad" rather than just "I see what you're trying to do but there's a problem so I'll fix it". Also, sometimes editors may just genuinely disagree about whether improvements are necessary (or perhaps they will agree, if they say proper improvements but can't see it until they see them), in that case, there ultimately needs to be consensus on the best wording so you're going to need to initate discussion.

And while editing in situ can be easier, other times for a variety of reasons it's better to come up with some draft on the talk page. The biggest confusing thing about this is if it's such a big deal, why is there zero discussion on the article talk page? Does that mean Matt Lewis now accepts that improvements aren't necessary and if so, why is there still so much fuss?

P.S. Just a quick reminder that edit requests are only intended to be used for simple changes that already have consensus (whether from previous discussion or which can be assumed). A simple "no, please establish consensus for your change" to an edit request is fine although that doesn't seem to have been what happened anyway. If editors are using edit requests incorrectly, it would be better to educate them on the correct usage of edit requests not to require long discussions when rejecting an edit request. Admitedly I'm not really sure what discussion page is being referred to anyway, since there's no comments by Pepperbeast on the Naturopathy talk page (perhaps in archives).

Nil Einne (talk) 10:57, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Nil, I explained in great detail above. This is all happening on my talk page. PepperBeast (talk) 03:03, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I admit I haven't read all you said, but I see zero chance you can come up with a good explaination of why the discussion should be held in your talk page. If you want to modify the article and get into a dispute, discuss it on the article talk page. (There are some exceptions where it may be fair to hold some discussion on an editors talk page, but I won't go in to detail except suffice to say if there is actually going to be any change, the primary point of discussion should be the article's talk page.) This means if you haven't discussed it in the article talk page, it's pretty much impossible to make the claim people are being unresonable or rejecting any changes. So either you care about the changes and they are a big deal and there is a discussion in the article talk page, or you don't really care about the changes and this whole long discussion is largely moot.

And BTW, you've made a big deal about how you're an experienced editor who didn't need warnings, but then seem to be giving us an example showing you still don't understand how[REDACTED] works (if you do think the changes are justified but are not discussing it in the article talk page), so perhaps the warning was fair. (I'm assuming you do at least understand people can give you as many level warnings as they want. But nothing is likely to happen to you unless you violate some policy or guideline. And some resonable comments in an article talk page proposing changes particularly if you've taken on board what has been said before and our policies and guidelines, carries almost zero risk of being blocked simply for these comments, unless you're either a sock of a banned editor or have a topic ban.)

Also one thing I learnt from the above discussion before my first reply was that other people had told you to take it to the article talk page so I see even less chance you can explain why there is no discussion in the article talk page.

Your rants about how poorly your proposed changes were handled is of course offtopic on the article talk page. However such rants are rarely going to get far if they're over a nonissue (i.e. there was no change needed for the article anyway). Come up with an example where good, or nearly good changes were rejected (or perhaps it was impossible to know if the changes were good because they were reverted for a trivial error which could have been easily resolved to allow proper assessement), and you may achieve something productive.

But if changes were actually without merit, at worse you can say the edit summary was bad. But it would have to be very bad for people to care about a single edit summary. And frankly the edit summary doesn't seem bad at all . Actually even if it turns out the article summary did need work and your proposed wording was close to the consensus new wording, it's fairly unlikely we're going to conclude there's clearly a problem from this one instance, but you at least may have some decent evidence. (And just to be clear, since we don't rule on WP:Content disputes here, only deal with behavioural problems if we look at the article and see the changes haven't been implemented and there no discussion, the only possible conclusion is it doesn't seem there was merit.)

TL:DR version; no discussion in the article talk page = no evidence you really tried to collobrate on improving the article = almost impossible to establish people are being "owny" or rejecting resonable changes = no issue for us on ANI = don't give warnings about how you're going to take people to ANI over such non-issues = if people come here because you gave such warnings, just say "whoops, sorry my bad" not write out long replies.

Nil Einne (talk) 12:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Nil, I can't disagree with you more. Matt Lewis's explosion in response to being reverted and templated is flat out disturbing. First of all, Pepperbeast's revert was perfectly in line with WP:BRD, insofar as Matt Lewis introduced new material into a stable article without discussion. Matt Lewis, being a regular, should know well enough how BRD works. It might've been courteous for Pepperbeast to then let Matt Lewis know why he was reverted in a more lengthy explanation somewhere, but not strictly necessary. Now, Delta13C templated Matt Lewis with {{uw-unsourced1}} for that contribution, which would have been the appropriate warning otherwise. Last I checked, WP:DTTR hadn't become a guideline—with WP:TTR still listing good counterpoints—and, honestly, I'm not sure you can even call Matt Lewis a "regular" in the sense of DTTR considering his level of activity in recent years. Perhaps article talk discussion was lacking, but that's on Matt Lewis within the BRD framework. You can't just go and blow up, threatening to take everyone to ANI in response to what is, in the scope of things, the tiniest slight. If we take Matt Lewis's conduct as indicative of his general attitude, which I believe is reasonable, we have a person who is very rapidly demonstrating himself to have a civility problem. Loquacious threats to drag unsuspecting editors to the dramaboards have a distinct chilling effect, particularly against inexperienced users. It's disruptive, and the fact that Matt Lewis immediately leaped to that level leads me to believe we need to take a much harder look at his user interactions if there's no indication this was an aberration. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 14:42, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Will you stop calling me 'flat-out disturbing' etc please? Matt Lewis (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you find the phrase upsetting, but I've got to call a spade a spade here. You need to understand that your conduct here has been inappropriate and disruptive. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 04:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry Nil, I find this a bit hard to accept this when you admit you haven't read all of my defense. I don't want to repeat too much for you, as long-post repetition is not well-liked is it? But I will say this (as I've already said I think in two different places)... I didn't discuss the edit first as I saw PepperBeast's "No" to someone else on the article Discussion and I didn't find it very welcoming. So I was bold. I’m always prepared for anything I contribute to be removed by someone on Misplaced Pages, especially as the years have gone on. I expect that era of 'can I improve?' has simply gone, for these kind of articles at least. I have said very-clearly that my anger towards both Delta and PepperBeast (but was it really "hassle" from me, though?) was NOT about my contribution being removed! And I did NOT make one single other edit! I am very HAPPY to work with anyone who isn't rude to me on content. It's was ALL about the very particular way I was 'received' by them. Deta's Warning seemed to just appear out-of-the-blue, straight after PepperBeast said "No" in removing my edit. And when Delta14C moved his 'Warning' discussion from my Talk onto PepperBeast's Talk page (even though I asked him to keep it on mine), I felt even more sure that they were 'team-working' together on protecting this essay from certain unwanted edits. However I accepted Delta's apology re the Warning 'iking' me - though he didn't seem to accept that a warning was completely unjustified here. I then discussed a content issue in the whole article to him (as he suggested I do, though perhaps not there obviously) and then PB said “take it elsewhere”. Ok, fine. But why was Delta even on PB's Talk? And then this highly unconventional ANI suddenly happened.

I'd actually like to know if Delta gave me the 'Warning' (which of-course many people will find intimidating however you say they don’t all matter) because he thought I was a sockpuppet of the IP who also got a "No." from PepperBeast regarding a similar type of Introduction change? And maybe also if anyone really thinks that this ANI was a particularly good idea, and was made quite in the right spirit? Readjusting the track with me might have been a better idea I think. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Some real advice for all you guys out there, please do not post essays, it doesn't make your argument a pinch more believable than what it'd be without all the fluff. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 14:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Not sure I get this. In the sense that Matt Lewis has been all but screaming "Don't Template the Regulars" from the git go as though it's policy, I agree that it hamstrings his credibility. In the sense that I'm calling him out on demanding other editors follow nebulous essays by linking to the essays, then I don't really get how that hurts my credibility. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 15:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

By essay, I mean, a really long reply/comment/post, nothing else. It had 1.6k words, thrice the limit for my English essay. And, I was only referring to Matt's essay, so no worries mate. I think I'll label my messages next time. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 18:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, of course. Silly me, I should've understood that. I agree wholeheartedly. Essay-length responses on any talk page, let alone ANI, are really counterproductive. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 19:48, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I was hoping not to comment here again, but sorry... you've been given a 500 word English essay to write? That's less than 20 lines on my monitor, which is about 2 average paragraphs surely? My 1,600 word post (if that's what it was) was my main defense to an ANI. I've got to ask you what your English essay it was on? English is my 'subject' (I'm 45 btw, I'm not still studying it) and I am really interested in what they ask of students now. Tbh, I don't see how anyone can practically request this kind of thing of Wikipedians. If a long post is too much for someone to personally to manage, surely they can just leave it to someone else? My defense wasn't made to anyone personally - and people's hands are rather forced in these situations. I think you can look at this both ways really - ie some people find it a bit of a chore to read more than a longish paragraph or so (and presumably do all they want to do), while others have real difficulties keeping their comments to a single paragraph. But Misplaced Pages is a big place and is supposed to cater for a broad spectrum of people - so what's the bother? There is no great hurry here, or a shortage of staff is there? I've not been repeating anything over and over, which can be a real pain over many long posts I'd agree. Surely you wouldn't say this to anyone outside of ANI, so why say it at ANI? And isn't it rather picking on a defendant? You probably don't see it as being rude when in here, but I think it is. I'm a decent human being who has already pre-apologised for writing the length that I have (and often do). And I'd like to say that in 10 years I've never once complained about anyone's writing needs or style, nor ever made suggestions for anyone to be punished in any particular way either for what it's worth (I've never personally seen that as my role). And believe me, I've wrestled with some notorious sock-farmers and article disrupters over my really active years here too. I just do not like being totally-needlessly needled at, with Warnings or whatever. And I really do not think it's good for Misplaced Pages. (380 words). Matt Lewis (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Let me tell you something. The shorter the speech, the happier the audience. I didn't critique your writing style, just the need of writing 1.6k words to defend yourself. Since, I probably have some informal kind of ADHD, I went through the first three paras of what you said and it has missing commas, periods and uses words that are not related to the context. Undue exclamation marks, a display of battleground mentality and no quotations from policy. And you thought was I said previously was critique. Ha. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 05:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

What are "words that are not related to the context"? You mean I went off topic? If I opined over an area of Misplaced Pages, I assure you it is related to all this. And "missing commas" indeed! How does that work out? For people like yourself, I've actually taken to using as many commas as I can these days - eg placing them before and after using 'and'! I use them all over in fact. Your list is just wrong, and is totally needless too.

I just can't believe that I actually said above "there isn't exactly a staff problem here"! Attending to ANI must be a nightmare for Misplaced Pages in general, and it's always been full of passing poppers posting pointless comments. I should have told PepperBeast I'd be taking the whole 'patroller etiquette' issue to a noticeboard-type place, or ask a decent admin or something - ANI is a crazy place to take anything that isn't clear disruption or abusive 3RR or something seriosuly article-effecting like that. I was just rusty that's all, and really cheesed off, and ANI is the place that came to mind. I don't know what PepperBeast was thinking of either in counter-reporting here. Matt Lewis (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I was thinking "fercrissake, I'm getting blasted and ANI-threatened by some guy I've never interacted with before because I did something perfectly normal. It's going to be ANI'd anyway, and I don't know what else to do about it". PepperBeast (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

PepperBeast, you just to understand that there was nothing perfect about the way you began our interaction. Or with that other person too. Because (aside from imo non-policy-related article 'ownership' issues) this 'tough' "No." approach is just really unsuitable for a communally-built encyclopedia. You still argue that this manner of reverting someone's contribution is perfectly normal. Nobody is supposed to have an elevated editing position on Misplaced Pages, and it seems to me that even this ANI suggests you likely feel that you have some kind of special position here. We all should know that everyone is supposed to treat complete strangers with civility, equality and respect, and especially in this controversial area - an area I think too-many people think they can be rude by default.

Nobody is going to support any of that here though, and I don't even know why this ANI is still open. I'm tired of coming back to check if it's been archived yet, or if something has happened. And I expect you are too. I wish I never even thought of the bloody acronym.

It's all about the attitude. I've just had a quick look at that frankly-unwelcoming article talk page, I can see even-now Delta13C is being intimidating to someone who had questioned the article's neutrality. He's asking if he/she has a "a conflict of interest with naturopathy in any way?" I don't think you can just ask that kind of question out of the blue at all. Not without a very good reason stemming from the actual editor, and not purely the subject matter! It's all too intimidating. Delta14C was the editor who 'Warned' me for making one single edit - so yes that does relate to this ANI. And (before you complain again) I was obviously going to bring him up in here, as he was entirely following your lead, and some of you do seem to work as intimidating groups. What did you expect when you made this ANI?

It's ALL too intimidating, and I worry that all this is typical in complimentary medicine (ie 'CAM') areas on Misplaced Pages. I think you both feel too empowered and neither of you have any right to lean on anyone. The angry way I reacted to you both? Well, that's a separate matter. It's a reaction, and a really pissed-off one. I just hate seeing bullies. I am certain that you both feel you are fighting some great 'war' against pseudoscience, and set out to be tough guys toward every fool you feel you come across. Can't you just edit Misplaced Pages like you are supposed to for pete's sake? Using core policy properly should make these articles work - avoiding your own 'POV' is always the key. The idea of WP:NPOV has to work both ways to work properly. When people think they are somehow exempt from POV (in this case partly due to this highly unscientific ill-defined, super-conclusive, fits-all, and ultimately-unsourced and 'OR' idea of "scientific consensus" for everything to do with whatever alt-health is supposed to cover at any one point), you end up with articles needlessly reading like they are hatchet jobs. That is the net result. Misplaced Pages should not have that vibe, nor give that impression. It's highly unprofessional, and no doctor or scientist would approach it like this. You can tell the real story here without being macho about anything. The only reason that a reasonable probably rarely happens in these articles is because it's made so unwelcoming for moderate editors to step in and help. The hardliner ethos seems to be so completely entrenched that changing to more typically encyclopedic approach is pretty-much met with ridicule and/or distrust. Regarding my own single edit, it's pretty obvious that I was seen as a 'possible' sock puppet frankly too (ie if not just some silly-billy alt-health proponent) - but ignoring AGF like that is just not on either. It's just not the rules.

Please, just show some basic respect to normal people please. Behind all this is actually just a carer asking you people to offer a level field of respect to perfectly-decent and perfectly-intelligent people who often just happen to be (sometimes quite seriously) ill. It just happens to be a group that deserves basic respect. It's all about your approach. Matt Lewis (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't know what more I can add to this discussion. Any comment I make seems to elicit an increasingly grandiose rant. Matt Lewis, you're hardly in a position to lecture me about "basic level of respect". PepperBeast (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Well we all know the mechanics Misplaced Pages sometimes operates under. It's like a simple but effective machine; from the article interaction to the notes to the responses. Shorter criticsm gets advisory wikilinks including on 'personal attacks', longer critism is always dismissed to as a 'rant'. Just add a small array of colourful cliches to release in turn. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a patroller's 'bot' around that effectively automates every form of human interaction. Is this done yet? Matt Lewis (talk) 13:21, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Matt, Misplaced Pages editors are volunteers. Nobody here has to read your rants on ANI, but do because they are skilled at assisting in behavioral disputes. You speak of respect: Where is your respect for the people who read this board? For the volunteers who edit this site? I find it lacking, as evidenced by your absolute fervor in response to (1) a revert, (2) a level-1 user warning template, and (3) an ANI thread. All you had to do was explain yourself and walk away. Preaching about lofty principles is interesting, but not pertinent in the least. Even in terms of righting great wrongs, the three things that were "done to you" are hardly great even if they were wrong. That sort of fervor over what is, honestly, an exceedingly minor slight, sets off alarm bells in my head, and should do the same for other regular participants here. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 13:47, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Too long, didnt read most of the above. Seriously, if you cant make your point in 500 words or less, you dont have a point. For complainant: 1. Accusation. 2. Diffs in evidence of accusation. 3. Resolution you are requesting (if known). For responder: 1. Why evidence does not support accusation. Anything else is waffle. Pepperbeasts complaint is that Matt Lewis is hassling them by their overly-long screeds in response to a simple editing conflict (and yes, it *is* a simple one that should have been resolved in 5 mins). They have provided evidence to that and Matt Lewis's extensive comments in this thread corroborate their excessive wordiness. I would certainly feel hassled by someone who posted those rants on my talkpage. Proposed solution: Matt Lewis, stay off Pepperbeasts talkpage or you will end up being blocked by an admin. Discuss editing conflicts at article talkpages. Refrain from commenting on editors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:13, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It isn't so much the wordiness for me. It's the content-- the aggressive tone, the lecturing, the repeated demands for an apology, the threatening to "report" me, calling me rude, cocky, and disrespectful, etc., etc. PepperBeast (talk) 19:40, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. If you can't gather your thoughts and sum them up succinctly in 6 lines or less, then the writer has descended into rant / histrionics territory. I tried to read all the way through the posts, I really did. But after the third such post, it would have been masochism to push on. Blackmane (talk) 01:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support the recommendation to Matt Lewis that 1) he has vastly over-reacted to a mundane and in-all-respects minor content dispute, 2) blowing things this massively out of proportion is especially problematic when coupled with a deep personalization of the issue, 3) this is a topic which should have been taken to the talk page for a cordial, collaborative effort at a middle-ground solution, 4) long-winded screeds on user pages are not a well-advised alternative to this process and an even worse idea when trying to defend one's sense of fair-play and proportion at ANI, and 5) an inability to scale back the hyperbole and long-winded claims of persecution is likely to result in sanctions. Seriously, any (extremely minor and certainly common-place) brusqueness on PepperBeast's behalf in that initial edit/edit summary was outdone in terms incivility by a factor of twenty in the first post to his talk page, to say nothing of the following comments there and here since. For an editor with a decade's-worth of experience who likes to gripe about what other editors "simply cannot do" in behavioural terms, said contributor really needs to get a grasp on basic conflict resolution strategies. Snow 09:27, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I thought this discussion would be dead by now. But since it isn't I'll point out there's still zero comment by Matt Lewis on the article talk page which strongly supports my view Matt Lewis never actually had any legitimate complaint about anyone reverting them. Their edits were inappropriate and as an experienced editor they should have known that and accepted the reversion with grace rather than going on a very long rant about some perceived problem with the edit summary and comments left to other editors in response to WP:edit requests. Nil Einne (talk) 13:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by User:Funkatastic

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The editor keeps adding Bubbling Under chart peaks at Rick Ross discography, which cannot be verified through sources provided. I tried to explain to the editor that those peaks s/he adds cannot be verified at his/her talk page. But s/he removed my explanation, and reverted the page to his/her revision 1, 2. S/he keeps saying in the edit summary that These are routine calculations. Very much allowed. I'm not sure what routine calculations have anything to do with the fact that the peaks aren't verifiable.--Harout72 (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

So very happy you chose to involve other editors in this issue. WP:CALC, a sub policy of the WP:No Original Research policy, states specifically that:

"Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are some examples of routine calculations."

The Bubbling under charts act as extensions of other charts. For example, if a song charts at #5 on the Bubbling Under Hot 100 Chart, which serves as an extension to the Hot 100, one could most certainly deduct that 100+5=105. This is simple addition, and to argue that this doesn't qualify as "simple arithmetic" is asinine. Additionally, this user has began edit wars on the pages Rick Ross discography (as well as my personal talk page), without adding any further explanations of his edits other than the argument made in his original edit summary, despite the fact that I presented a policy that specifically countered his argument. Though I personally feel that Harout72 is guilty of disruptive editing, I'd personally prefer that no repercussions are given to him and someone just simply explain to him that what he's doing is incorrect and violates WP:CALC. Funkatastic (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

You simply do not want to hear what others are saying to you. You were not brought here because you added Bubbling Under peaks, you were brought here because you kept adding peaks that cannot be verified through the sources that your edit here adds. This here is one of the sources that supposedly supports those chart peaks, which does not list any chart peaks for any songs whatsoever. The issue here is about the fact that you're either not familiar with WP:Verifiability or you knowingly keep disrupting that page. Also, Bubbling Under peaks are never adding in the column of Hot 100 chart, they should be listed at the notes section.--Harout72 (talk) 00:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

You literally just accused me of exactly what you're doing, you're not listening to counter arguments. I did not add a single source to this page, so if that's the argument you're switching to now that's great, because now you look even dumber. The only thing I did was take the Bubbling Under positions from the Notes that already existed on the page and reflected them to the tables. So if your new issue is with the references, you're not even talking to the right person. This is hilarious. As you added in the final sentence of your last argument, "Also, Bubbling Under peaks are never adding in the column of Hot 100 chart, they should be listed at the notes section." is once again, completely ignoring the policy WP:CALC.Funkatastic (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

This is your edit. You have copied and pasted an entire older revision of the page from which I had to remove all of those sources and peaks due to unverifiability. By doing that, yes, you are adding sources which do not support your added chart peaks.--Harout72 (talk) 00:42, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Except the proper move there, isn't to completely remove all of the content. It's to add a notice at the top of the section & article saying that the article is unverifiable and it's sources need to be updated. So once again, you made a mistake. Funkatastic (talk) 05:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Any material not supported by a reference can be removed without warning or notice; it is not a "mistake" to not tag it first. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Just noticed this at Rick Ross discography and I'm not getting involved beyond this except to point out the fact that Funkatastic, you don't seem to understand it is not "basic arithmetic" because the Bubbling Under chart only tracks songs that have not yet reached the Hot 100. Therefore, a song that falls out of the Hot 100 will not reappear on the Bubbling chart. Thus, that particular song might be #101 in Billboard's calculations in a given week. To then list what is #1 on the Bubbling Under chart as #101 is inaccurate, because in reality it might be #102 or even #110; without actual figures, one cannot know. I've noticed what you've done at Meek Mill discography with Azealia911 (talk · contribs) with re-adding the Bubbling Under peak onto 100 and it's inaccurate, persistent and disruptive. Please recognise that you are misconstruing what the Bubbling Under chart actually is, and what it isn't is a simple extension chart (if it was, songs that fall out of the Hot 100 would reappear on it). This isn't anything personal, it's just that I've come across this misunderstanding many times over the years and it's frustrating to see it all over Misplaced Pages. That's why the note should be placed next to an mdash, because in the end, it did not chart on the Hot 100, its exact position outside the top 100 is not known, and the Hot 100 and Bubbling Under chart are two different charts. (Also, WP:CALC was not created for this reason and the cited passage indicates there must be consensus about said "calculation" for it to be added. There clearly isn't consensus among users about this, even beyond the scope of this.) Ss112 10:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Echoing what Ss112 has just said: the Bubbling Under chart is not an extension of the Hot 100 because it only includes songs that haven't yet reached the Hot 100, and does not account for those that have fallen off yet might still be just below 100. WP:CALC does not hold here, because the criteria are not the same between the two lists. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:21, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

It appears Funkatastic has either not seen this or still does not care, having just edited 2 Chainz discography, still operating under the assumption one can add the Bubbling Under onto 100 and citing WP:CALC in his edit summaries. It needs to stop; it's disruptive, persistent and inaccurate. Disruptive because he will restore his edits if anybody takes him up on it. Ss112 18:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

It wouldn't surprise me if the user in question had indeed seen the above explanation on why CALC does not apply here, not been bothered, and carried on doing what they want regardless. I was originally wary about partaking in this discussion, as all attempts to contact the user via discussion or their talk page usually result in them blanking any attempt of communication, usually accompanied by an insulting statement in the edit summary (see their talk page history). I was also reluctant to add my thoughts as I didn't want the conversation to completely derail (see this discussion about a content dispute, which Funkatastic tried to turn conversation to how I paint them as a 'bad guy' and I was only posting to bring my 'personal beef' up. If the user is simply ignoring what Ss112 and BlueMoonset are explaining here, then further action may be a possible route to take. Azealia911 _talk 20:59, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Funkatastic hasn't been pinged here lately, so I'm doing so now to ensure that the conversation is being followed as well as the explanations as to why the calculations are producing invalid results, rather like adding apples and oranges. (WP:CALC simply doesn't apply when the numbers being combined are determined based on differing criteria.) BlueMoonset (talk) 21:09, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

It should also be noted that unlike other policies and guidelines that instruct users to be bold, CALC specifically states that "Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious" I have yet to see one discussion in which there is consensus amongst multiple editors that CALC can be applied in this manner, rather the opposite. Azealia911 _talk 21:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

*@Harout72: You've forgotten to notify Funktastic about this ANI complaint. I have done it for you, but given the fact it pops up in a big orange box every time you edit the page, I fail to see how you have missed it. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 06:06, 23 January 2016 (UTC) Ignore this. I noticed he removed the ANI notification. My bad. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 06:11, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

LMAO, that might be the dumbest thing I have ever read. If a song reaches the Hot 100 then any charting on the Bubbling Under charts wouldn't be the peak. I understand the concerns, but not a single one of you has raised a valid argument as to why WP:CALC doesn't apply to the use of Bubbling Under Charts. If you'd like to try and start a discussion on any of these pages to try and create a consensus that simple addition doesn't qualify as basic arithmetic please go ahead, but because that claim is so farfetched I'll continue to make these edits. I've yet to do anything that qualifies as "disruptive, persistent or inaccurate". Two more things I'd like to point out, I have never stated that the sources on these discography pages, nor have I ever personally vouched for him. Secondly, the above user says "which Funkatastic tried to turn conversation to how I paint them as a 'bad guy' and I was only posting to bring my 'personal beef' up" is completely irrelevant as it happened over a year ago, the only reason to bring up this dispute would be an attempt to personally attack a user instead of discussing the contents of the topic. Don't know how you could still deny these as personal attacks when in this scenario the content isn't the slightest bit pertinent to the current topic of discussion. Funkatastic (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

It's valid because it's proof that, as you have also just stated, you (will) continue to add what you consider "routine calculations" persistently to the point of disruption. As I and other users have just explained, it is not a routine calculation; they're two different charts and the Bubbling chart is no longer a simple extension chart, otherwise it would still be listed as such (#1 being #101 and so on--there is no proof this is the case today). Even pointing out that if a song makes the Hot 100 "the Bubbling Under position would not be its peak" demonstrates you still do not understand what any of us has just said. Claiming without proof you have consensus to make said edits is wrong, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this now. Ss112 01:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Funkatastic still keeps reverting Rick Ross discography to the revision which adds sources that leaves all of his added Bubbling Under peaks unverifiable. He still chooses to do so even after he accepted that his edit adds sources that do not support those chart peaks. Even after being told that Any material not supported by a reference can be removed without warning or notice; it is not a "mistake" to not tag it first. Hopefully administrators prevent further disruptions by this editor. He even reverts edits of other editors at all discographies where he's told what he's doing is wrong.--Harout72 (talk) 03:32, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The above two posts both claim I said things that I never posted here or anywhere. I never once claimed I had a consensus, nor did I ever claimed I added sources to the page Rick Ross discography, both of those claims are 100% fictitious and furthermore prove that these users aren't even aware of the point I'm trying to make, let alone the topic of discussion. Funkatastic (talk) 19:55, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

You cited WP:CALC here and in your edit summary, which claims you need to have consensus to add numbers together for it not to be considered original research. You don't have consensus on the matter of adding Bubbling Under peaks to 100 to be adding it anywhere. You are now reverting @Cornerstonepicker: and claiming their reversions of your disruptive edits are "vandalism". Also, do not change the heading of this discussion; that's not your place. You didn't start this discussion, Harout72 did. Most of your edits are also unsourced, as you don't have any proof Billboard considers #1 on the Bubbling Under chart #101, which makes it original research as well. Since you are the user changing dashes into inaccurate additions (inaccurate, as I and others have explained above) of numbers, the burden of proof is on you. Ss112 20:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Especially Kanye West discography with WP:3RRV. Since his explanation is invalid, not sure why the persistence with unhelpful edits. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 20:41, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Would a topic ban proposal be too extreme? One that would prevent the user from editing discography articles completely. It's evident that no matter how many users attempt to explain how CALC can not be evoked as a reason for their actions, they clearly do not want to listen. What do others think? Azealia911 _talk 22:32, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• If no administrator blocks Funktastic for those erroneous additions despite consensus to the contrary, which is the only other thing I can think of that might get said user to stop without going to a ban, then I would favor a temporary topic ban on editing charts and chart data in discography articles and discographies in regular articles, perhaps a month, to be made indefinite if the behavior is resumed after the temporary ban is lifted. A line was crossed with the claim of "vandalism" when one of the CALC edits was reverted. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Saw this topic fly by: I can only add that I warned Funkatastic about this while I was an administrator, and, were I still an administrator, he would be indefinitely blocked until he acknowledged that his edits violate policy, guidelines, and that most horrible thing to mention, truth. As multiple editors have explained to him, the Bubbling Under charts do not function as an extension the main chart.

For those that aren't versed in charts, the Bubbling Under charts are a chart of the fifteen or twenty-five best-selling songs that have not made the main chart. If a song ever charts on the main chart, it cannot reappear on the main chart. Thus, if the 101st best-selling song used to be the 99th best selling song, it will disappear from the charts entirely, and the song showing a position 1 on the Bubbling Under chart is actually position 102 or lower. That's the reason that WP:CALC doesn't apply, and what Funkatastic is able unwilling or unable to understand. A WP:CIR block would be quite appropriate here: even if Funkatastic is well-intentioned, his edits are damaging.—Kww(talk) 20:40, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• I support a topic ban or similar form of disciplinary measure. After a few days' rest, it appears Funkatastic has resumed disruptive editing; reverting BlueMoonset's edits at Wale discography. This persistent refusal to accept they are wrong and adding incorrect information needs to stop. Ss112 05:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for topic ban

I propose that Funkatastic be given a one month topic ban from editing discography articles and from making any edits related to Bubbling Under charts and music charting in general, broadly construed, said ban to be made indefinite if the behavior is resumed at any point after the temporary ban is lifted. I'm happy to entertain modifications on specific details, and alternate proposals can always be made. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:48, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Funkatastic's disruptive and inaccurate edits continue. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:48, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support I agree with the assertion that WP:CALC does not apply to the nuances of content involved here, but even if it did, that guideline still stipulates that Funktastic must secure consensus for these changes--which, in any event, specific policy reinforcement or no, he needs embrace for any controversial content change on Misplaced Pages. Since he seems determined to go his own way on this issue, across multiple articles, a topic ban seems the only appropriate measure at this time--though I wonder, given his disposition towards collaboration, if a topic ban will be sufficient or headed. Snow 09:43, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support Funkatastic is never going to stop disrupting discographies. This editor doesn't have the ability to listen to what others are saying to him, and surely isn't willing to work with the rest of the community.--Harout72 (talk) 14:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support, although I think a complete site ban would be preferable.—Kww(talk) 15:37, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

There's always a possibility it may come to that, if the editor doesn't begin to appreciate the principle of the collaborative process, but I have to say that proposing a full site ban based on present activities would be a massive over-reach of a sanction, thoroughly disproportionate with the disruption being examined here, not withstanding their editing philosophy and propensity towards IDHT in this narrow context. A temporary topic ban or a very short term block would be appropriate, either of them, but an indefinite or long-term site ban would surely be excessive, in my view. Snow 01:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

There's no value in retaining an editor that hasn't got command of basic logic skills.—Kww(talk) 16:26, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but you don't get to make such a sweeping analysis of his absolute net value to the project as a unilateral decision predicated on a short span of disruption on one narrow issue--permanent WP:SITEBANs are not applied on the basis of "I just don't have a great impression of this guy's logic skills", but rather for a prolonged pattern of disruption which the community cannot ignore. We're way short of those circumstances here. Let me be clear, as I thought I already had been, that I share your doubts that this will have a productive turn-around, based on the IDHT that disposition in evidence here. But we don't ban people from the project for a handful of controversial (or even outright disruptive) edits--not when intermediary measures, including a conventional block, have not been attempted. You're jumping way ahead of the appropriate process for addressing behavioural issues here. Snow 17:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the disruption has lasted for months: it's not "short-term" by any reasonable definition.—Kww(talk) 18:51, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support The user displays tell-tale signs of WP:IDHT. No matter how many times it is explained to them, they will not cease to use WP:CALC as an excuse to disruptively edit discographies. I'd motion to extend the 'trial' topic ban from one month to three or four. I also concur with Kww that a better route to take would be a site ban. Azealia911 _talk 15:59, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support per comments by Kww and Azealia911; either a topic ban or site ban. Ss112 17:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• Consensus seems clear and unopposed, could an admin close and enforce this please? Azealia911 _talk 13:18, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

The UAE troll is back again, new range block and page-protections needed

The troll operating from dynamic IPs in the UAE and who repeatedly targets both myself and other users is back again. For previous discussions leading to extensive range blocks, see ANI discussion in January ANI discussion in November]. The same trade marks, using different UAE IPs and going after my edits, calling me a troll etc. , , , . As we've seen both in November and January, the only thing that works tends to be semi-protection of the articles this troll targets and range blocks of the ranges he uses. @Diannaa:, it appears that his preferred range this time is 5.107.XXX. Would be good if somebody could semi-protect Punjab, Pakistan as well. The troll has been duplication a section that already exists in the article, severely misrepresented sources and messed with tags, all of it pretty "standard" vandalism. Jeppiz (talk) 19:10, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Jeppiz, has an SPI been created for this editor? I'm not sure which IP they used the most, so I can't search their archives. There should be a page somewhere where the relevant IP numbers are kept track of. Liz 20:46, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• I've blocked 5.107.13.237 and 5.107.7.39. (The range seemed a bit too big and busy to block.) The way these IPs have edited User talk:Gerua18, removing warnings and attacking you, Jeppiz, is interesting. I'm thinking of blocking Gerua18 per WP:DUCK, especially considering they're disruptive anyway. Do you think it's all the same person, Jeppiz? Bishonen | talk 21:01, 30 January 2016 (UTC).

Bishonen, I don't think it's Gerua18. My impression is that Gerua18 is a new and infrequent user with an interest in the Punjab region. Perhaps with a bit of a POV, but no other problem. The IP in the UAE is more a typical troll. He (trolls are usually males) does have a tendency of targeting articles related to Christianity (to attack it) or Islam (to claim it's great) but several users already in November pointed out that this seems more done to troll, not any genuine Muslim conviction. It could be somebody genuinely hating "Christianity" (broadly construed) but it could just as likely be a troll trying to give Muslims a bad name. The very repeated attacks on DeCausa (), myself () and others seem more indicative of a troll, perhaps a blocked user with whom we interacted some time in the past. If we could do something more than temporary semi-protections and IP blocks, it would of course be good. Jeppiz (talk) 21:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, indeed it would be good, but Misplaced Pages is not set up to stop trolls. That's putting it mildly. I hope @Diannaa: takes a look, she's better with ranges and similar. Bishonen | talk 21:34, 30 January 2016 (UTC).

I did have a quick look when I was pinged, but since there's been no activity on Punjab, Pakistan since 16:09, I did not see the matter as urgent (and he likely has already left this range). The range is 5.107.0.0/17, which is busy, with 80 edits in the last 10 days, most of which are not from this guy. But I see this is the same range as was harrassing a user at Talk:Mia Khalifa yesterday. We don't actually have any weapons other than temporary semi-protections and IP blocks. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Liz, Bishonen and Diannaa. I originally had no idea who the sockmaster is, but Diannaa's comment above makes it almost a WP:DUCK that it is Xtremedood. What do we know about the troll in the UAE? That he is harassing users at Mia Khalifa, at articles related to Punjab, at articles related to Christianity and at articles related to Islam, as can be seen from this and previous ANI discussions about the troll. And what do know of Xtremedood? That he's an active puppet master with an interest in Mia Khalifa , , in Punjab , , in Christianity , and in Islam , . We know the UAE troll goes after me, and I've disagreed with Xtremedood about Islam. Diannaa tells us the troll goes after Jobas and Jobas has disagreed with Xtremedood after Mia Khalifa. So we have a know sock-master, Xtremedood, with an interest in Mia Khalifa, Punjab, Christianity, Islam and disputes with Jobas and me, and we have an active IP troll with an interest in Mia Khalifa, Punjab, Christianity, Islam and disputes with Jobas and me. I don't think WP:DUCK gets any duckier than that. Jeppiz (talk) 22:41, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

The IP in the UAE used to edit and to have account's in Arabic[REDACTED] and Wikimedia commons, (where he used to upload Anti christian files as here). He as user Jeppiz said does have a tendency of targeting articles related to Christianity (to attack it) or Islam (to claim it's great). He used to targeting articles related to Christianity in the Arabic Wikipdia (as insulting, trying to force false information, comments hostile to Christians) where he was blocked for vandalism the Christian articles and and having more than 53 sockpuppeteers, After blcoking him in the Arabic Wikipida he began to targeting our personal talk pages (From his UAE IP) - This was in 2014-. So we had in Arabic Misplaced Pages trageting form the UAE IP toll.

He also was editing befor blocking him for vandalim and sock puppet in these acount or what used to called anti cross 25 and here, as we found in the arabic wikipeida was related to the UAE IP.

I feel uncertain about the relation between this IP and user:Xtremedood, for his sudden appearance and for his strong defense to the user:Xtremedood, after i brougth up the sockpuppet of user:Xtremedood and had after i had disagreed with him in Mia Kahlifa artcile, and accusing the User:Capitals00 (who had a problem recently with user:Xtremedood) having sockpuppet, which is the same accusing that user:Xtremedood did. I think it's a strange thing that this IP defend in that strong way of the user:Xtremedood and torolling after me after having issue with user.--Jobas (talk) 23:04, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

A list of the UAE troll's IPs during the last months

@Liz, Bishonen, Diannaa, Jobas, Bbb23, Ponyo, Cliftonian, Harrias, Elockid, Drmies and DeCausa, I ping you as you've been involved in this matter either as victims or admins during the past months. Liz, I'm not very good at SPIs but I put together this list of IPs Xtremedood has used to troll Misplaced Pages in the last nine months. I'm sure there are others, but these are all obvious ones. After Diannaa's post, I don't think anyone doubts it's Xtremedood who's the puppet master behind all these troll IPs. Jobas already told us about Xtremedood's similar behavior at Arabic Misplaced Pages. Then we have the trolls' and Xtremedood's shared interest in Mia Khalifa, Punjab, Christianity (to insult), Islam (to extoll) (see diffs in the post above). Four topics so random that the combination can hardly be a coincidence. If further evidence was still needed, these IP trolls have targeted in particular DeCausa, Jobas and myself (and perhaps others I don't know of), and if the shared interests between Xtremedood and the troll IPs weren't enough, then there's the fact that Xtremedood is probably the only user who has locked horns with all main "victims" of the troll IPs not only at articles but at our talk pages as well. Here's is a non-exhaustive list of the troll IPs, I hope someone can move this matter forward.

Jeppiz (talk) 01:11, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Through experience in the Arabic Misplaced Pages, this IP creates hundreds of IP and account's. Is there a solution to stop this toll, Because the solution to blocking him, according to my opinion it is useless. He will come back and continue to the same vandalism.--Jobas (talk) 01:26, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Just a passing not. I realized this IP was cursing in Arabic in the Arabic Levantine dialect (Specifically syrian), abd the IP or the blocked who used to tragic christian article in Arabic Wikipeida, through what we have know in Arabic Misplaced Pages (through the dialect) is from Syria, but he lives in the United Arab Emirates. I am currently unsure of conclusively link that the UAE IP here and the UAE IP who used to edit in the Arabic Wikipeida and who has hostile ideasto Christianity, and who has always sabotaging these christian articles and harassment the users who have been in trouble or disagree with him.--Jobas (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

@Jobas: Is there anything we can make an edit filter for? Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 18:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes sure the UAE IP was cursing the user Jeppiz in sickening way, through experience in the Arabic Misplaced Pages has always used the classic insults as he it here, So @Discuss-Dubious: we can edit filter here.--Jobas (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Good, we have some good strings. You should email the mailing list with this. I'm thinking we should send them a list of his favorite articles as well.@Jobas: Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 19:26, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Now edit warring and trolling at WP:SPI

For your informartion, I filed an SPI here The UAE troll has now moved on to the SPI with the usual edit warring and personal insults , , , . Rather tellingly, the UAE troll IP almost verbatim repeated the phrases Bbb23 used when blocking Xtremedood a week ago . Jeppiz (talk) 16:24, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

An edit filter might be very effect in reducing the personal insults. Right now, the SPI is in the hands of the CUers who have put it on hold while they decide what might be done against the persistent troll. Liz 01:38, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Gotta say though...editor might be on to something...Jobas and Jeppiz...Jeppiz and Jobas...Jebbis and Jopaz...there's totally something there. Don't y'all see it? Drmies (talk) 04:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Sarcasm doesn't always translate well. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:24, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Even if the socks aren't related to XD or G18, they are still ENT 70 ducks, and maybe he just agrees with Xtremedood. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 16:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Comment by Xtremedood

Hello, since I was mentioned a lot here, I would like to say that I have nothing to do with the IP's mentioned above. I have been stalked by IP's that both are hostile to my positions as well as seemingly supportive. I do not support such tactics and I do not have anything to do with these trolls. I request those who are operating these accounts to stop following me and I request that they adopt more civil mannerisms and behavior. I think the accusations by Jeppiz are baseless and it should be mentioned that Jeppiz, Jobas and I have an ongoing dispute here Talk:List of converts to Christianity from Islam. So I hope this is not an attempt to try and censor me so that they may post what they want in the article without disagreement from others, like myself. Xtremedood (talk) 19:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Maybe the issue is that ENT 70 just happens to agree with you. These are his megaphone-duck socks.

How long does it take to get an LTA on a sockpuppeteer like this? Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 20:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

St Mary's Church, Haddenham - copy/paste from ext website

Two editors have been repeatedly adding copy/pasted material from an external website. The website has an "All rights reserved" notice, but the book itself is apparently public domain. I am adding this here as I do not know whether it belongs on 3RR, or due to possible copyvio, here, or somewhere else.

• Apparent source: William Henry Page (1 January 1902). A History of the County of Buckingham: Volume 2, Parishes: Haddenham. pp. 281–286. ASIN B00MG5KYIK. Retrieved January 2016. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• 80.177.210.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dog7005 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Dog7005 Has restored content once, but not since an EW notice was left on talk page.
• 80.177.210.212 Has added / restored content five times or more. Once since a EW notice was added to 80.177.210.212's talk page.

Dog7005's account was created about when 80.177.210.212 reached uw-delete4. Page's book was cited by Dog7005, but then the cite was removed by 90.17.210.212 Much, if not all, of both editors' edits appear to be copy/pasted from Page's book. I have left a number of messages and suggestions on the editors' talk pages w/o a reply. Jim1138 (talk) 09:58, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Probably one to take to WP:SPI I'd say. Mike1901 (talk) 10:03, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The text is the public domain and available here, so it's not a copyvio. It is however, disruptive to copy/paste the entire text into the article, and he's edit warring to keep it in. I've semi-protected the page for a week to stop that disruption; perhaps in the meantime someone can take this PD source, distill it into some cited references, and remove those maintenance tags. Katie 12:15, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Giovannigiulio continues to block evade using IPs - rangeblock needed

I have been banreverting numerous IPs beginning with 5.90... for about a year now ever since Giovannigiulio was indeffed for abusing multiple accounts. While he has used some registered accounts to block evade, the vast majority of his block evasion came from these IP addresses, which he usually uses to make a few edits, then stops using, only to use another IP address afterwards, thus making these IP socks harder to block. Worst of all, this user typically flies under the radar of admins, leaving me to report and/or tag these socks.

So, I personally think we should calculate a rangeblock for all IPs in the 5.90... range, so that this user can no longer use these IPs to block evade. ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 20:50, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

That'd be 65534 hosts blocked if my calculations are correct (they may not be at this time of day). No idea what the collateral on that would be but I suspect it may be high. Amortias (T)(C) 00:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I suspect it may be high ... Someone just got their Masters Degree in Understatement. It likely would be, but would it be balanced with the removal of a SockMaster? Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 01:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, if I remember correctly, I've run into this sockmaster before. He was annoying but not so bad that I'd do a massive rangeblock. Maybe I didn't get the worst of it. As I recall, it was mostly nationalistic, Italian POV-pushing on film articles. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:42, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: True that, but to get a bigger picture of what I'm dealing with here, and how to identify socks of this user, take a gander at his LTA page, which I created based on what I knew about him. ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 18:13, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hey, my words have been immortalized. Yeah, that's pretty frustrating. It might help if you gathered IP addresses, like User:NinjaRobotPirate/Plot blanker. Sometimes you can get a limited rangeblock on the most commonly-used IP range. That's what happened with this list. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Drcrazy102 British editor, British humour, British stiff upper lip. Amortias (T)(C) 18:09, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

You're humour does seem to fit Amortias ... but I'm a bit sus' - waitaminute, the userpage saayyyssss ... *checks userpage* ... "Suffolk", that clears up my confusion. Good to meet a Suffolk-in-resident. How's the move to the horrible English going for you? Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: Sounds like a good solution to this, instead of the suspectedly high amount of IPs that may be impacted. Then we keep an eye on those rogues that get through the ranges. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@Drcrazy102: Based on the IPs I had already tagged, the most commonly used range by the sockmaster is "5.90.**.**". ElectricBurst_(Zaps) 08:08, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Is this something an AbuseFilter can help with - makes it easier to find which IPs have been used in the last spree by detecting (and possibly blocking) some signature edits. I do the same with an editor who just can't stay away in defiance of a block (I block what I can with the filter, and the rest I revert per WP:RBI). --Dirk Beetstra 09:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

SPA Account - Highly POV Slanted edits on Israel / Palestine

Fgz1995 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

,,

Newly registered account, making a lot of POV edits on articles likely to have little oversight. All uncited and definitely POV, does this come under sanctions related to this topic? WCM_email 01:05, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Might fall under WP:ARBPIA3, especially since they're a new account. clpo13_(talk) 01:07, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

User:RolandR has already left a discretionary sanctions plus a 500/30 prohibition notification on their talk page. Blackmane (talk) 04:50, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It does fall under PIA3. RolandR has dealt with it. NativeForeigner 10:57, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Should those changes be reverted? WCM_email 12:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Uncited ethnicity categories added again by User:Eruditescholar

Last February, I brought the issue of uncited ethnicity categories being added to BLPs based on very flimsy evidence by Eruditescholar. It has come to my attention that this is happening again, again and again. This is at least the second if not third time that this editor has been notified that WP:BLP requires that BLPs require affirmative proof of ethnicity.--TM 02:36, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@TM, This is beginning to look like you have a personal issue with me based on past discussions on this topic. Your basis for bringing this issue here is unwarranted for because I have observed that you make hasty revertions to some of my ethnic categorizations without checking the references first. For example, Candido Da Rocha and Sola Abolaji. I don't need to remind you that only Yoruba people use their native Yoruba language names for their ethnicity. Sometimes, I cite any of the first, middle or last name for males and only the fist, middle or maiden name for females. This is usually evident from the fact that they have multiple names in the Yoruba language. This is sometimes reinforced by the fact that they or their ancestors either have Yoruba ethnicity or originate from Yorubaland which comprises about 1/4 of Nigeria's population. If I can't find name sources, I look for other sources to cite their ethnicity. I don't add ethnic categories to BLPs unless I am sure of it. I have recommended before and I re-iterate that you keep away from Yoruba-related articles. Eruditescholar (talk)

Adding ethnic categories based on a name is Original Research which is not permitted. It is also not permitted to try to enforce ownership over articles or topics by telling other editors not to edit. So stop doing both of those things Eruditescholar, or you may face sanctions. It is not a requirement that articles be categorized by ethnicity, and policy is to omit such classification in the absence of explicit support in reliable sources. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 03:41, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@·maunus. Thanks and I understand your explanation but Misplaced Pages's rule for ethnic categorizations easily applies to ethnic groups outside Africa. Africans have unique ways of identifying with their ethnic groups and it may not be in concord with non-Africans. Besides, there's too much under-representation of African ethnic groups in Misplaced Pages. I have not claimed ownership of any article but only gave my recommendation regarding the other editor's unwarranted edits and reverts on Yoruba-related articles. Eruditescholar (talk) 05:07, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

As long as Misplaced Pages does not have special rules applying to African ethnicgroups you will have to follow the rules we have in the way you categorize African people.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 05:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Eruditescholar has persisted with this form of disruptive editing even since this issue was brought here. I think we need administrative action since clearly the editor is unwilling to stop.--TM 22:49, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It is now clear that inspite of the glaring evidence of ethnicity stated in most of these articles, especially on Abayomi Olonisakin, you have decided to be irrationale. You happen to be the only editor who brings this issue here for discussion. This a continuation of your grudges on past admin discussions regarding this topic and not necessarily because you want the articles in question to be good or informative. If you have personal issues with me or my editing, this is the wrong place to let it out. Eruditescholar (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 5:00, 2 February 2016

I have some sympathy with Eruditescholar's POV in the sense that it is true assumptions are commonly made and accepted in certain places based on name, look, place of origin or whatever and so it's often simply not stated as it's considered unnecessary. However our standards for living people are clear, WP:BLPCAT and Euriditescholar needs to follow them. If they wish to make exceptions or change the general guidelines, they'll need the WP:RFC before, not after. (And frankly despite my sympathies, I don't think I'll support any such exceptions.) BTW, if you are persistently adding WP:OR to WP:BLPs despite clear requests to stop, this is indeed the right place to deal with it. You should also learn to WP:AGF as even before you were replied, you were already told by another editor who isn't Namiba that adding cats based on OR was unacceptable. Also remember it is your responsibility if you are adding ethnicity categories to ensure that such categories are supported by the article with references. The fact that it's in one of the references somewhere, doesn't make it acceptable to add categories to the article if it isn't actually mentioned in the article (at least in the infobox) with references. Mentioning some references in the edit summary also isn't the way to handle it. People should be able to see the support for the categories by looking at the article, they should not need to look through the edit history. Nil Einne (talk) 07:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

BTW, I see in the previous discussion you were warned about our requirements by multiple people Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive874#Continued addition of uncited ethnicity categories by User:Eruditescholar. Personalising this as some sort of grudge by Namiba, when you were not only already informed of our requirements by someone else here, but the 'grudge' you refer to was actually your failure to follow our sourcing requirements which you were warned about by multiple other people, is extremely disappointing. It's entirely reasonable for people who've observed your poor behaviour before to follow your contribs to make sure it isn't happening again. And I suspect Namiba probably wasn't even following your contribs but happened to notice the problem when you edited an article they were watching. Problematic behaviour that an editor isn't willing to change is generally an appropriate topic of discussion at ANI. If it's repeated bad behaviour that they've already been warned about it's even more appropriate. In other words, the only "grudge" that anyone has is that we want you to stop adding categories without appropriate sourcing because consensus is that it does damage[REDACTED] and our articles when you do so. While you're welcome to disagree with out sourcing requirements for ethnicity categories until and unless you get them changed, you do have to follow them. Nil Einne (talk) 11:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Still more of the same adding of ethnicity categories without reliable sources saying that a BLP is in fact of a certain group. Will an admin please take action against this user who refuses to comply with WP rules?--TM 22:33, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Wondering if @EdJohnston: has anything to say, as they warned EruditeScholar last time. Nil Einne (talk) 13:39, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

EauZenCashHaveIt

Seems this user at Talk:Harold Holt has very strong opinions about me personally. He has multiple times insisted on placing my name in an unflattering manner in a section title ("‎Sources confirm Gillespie was his lover. It has been User:Collect vs. formed consensus for the past two discussions. Move to close please") on the article talk page, has told me in crude terms to go away, and has ignored my posts at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#smithsonianmag.com where another editor specifically agreed with me that where a person says an affair was not "intimate" that using the term "lover" about that person as a fact in Misplaced Pages's voice where the sources make clear the use is not implying sex, that there is a misuse of the sources. He refuses to allow the word "rumoured" in the article. And the posts at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_202#Sydney_Daily_Telegraph_.22Sydney_Confidential.22_article about the same claim in the past, sourced to a self-described "gossip column." By the way, there is no sound reason at all for any of this speculation in the biography of Harold Holt in the first place.

, , , etc. etc. I pointed out that using an attack in a talk page section name was improper, and you can see his response. Collect (talk) 14:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

In the words of the late great Abe Vigoda, nothing personal here. Anyone reviewing this, please note the length of the section with all its subsections. Then please note the amount of editors who repeatedly displayed an array of sources to reach a consensus. Then please note the amount of replies by Collect which ignore a good chunk of those sources in favor of making their point at all cost. Then please note the amount of times Collect was asked to quit fighting against consensus. Then notice my own polite replies, reminders of policy, and bringing of actual sources to the article. I could go on for a while, but the reality is that Collect has been exhaustinfont color="000FF">Electricg the editor community on that talk page for days now, and someone needs to put an end to it. What I am noticing is that this very report is a staggering display of stubborn and warrior-like behavior, since each and every point they are currently raising has already been disproven on the talk page, and all of us found a plethora of other sources. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 15:10, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: as for the matter at hand, "lover" is her own quote from several reputable sources, brought up numerous times by myself and every other participating editor. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 15:16, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

"Consensus" can never allow any source to be misused. The source provided specifies that the person denied being in an "intimate" relationship. In the US, "lover" is generally reserved (as a claim of fact) to "intimate" relationships and not to "intellectual" relationships, which is what the source specifically states in pretty much the next sentence. Cheers. And yes - I am known for loathing abuse of sources, especially when the claim has no encyclopedic value to the subject of the article. Collect (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• This appears to be a content dispute, with no real call for admin intervention. It's understandable that there is frustration among editors in that discussion, but I see nothing that requires use of admin tools. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:34, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• You seem to have missed the use of a section title as a place to make a personal attack on another editor, etc. And there remains an issue about misuse of sources (including use of a "gossip column") as detailed in the two RS/N discussions as well. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:40, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, other users pointed out, and justly so, that you have been trolling that page for a while. The section title merely states that it has been you vs. a formed consensus, which is far from a personal attack. The gossip column is ancient history - I personally replaced it a while ago. The "misuse" of sources has been disproven to you numerous times. The RS/N discussions were not brought up until right before you went here. You accuse other editors of canvassing (without a valid reason), yet you keep canvassing across multiple noticeboards in spite of a formed consensus - now you are here. Just accept that the consensus exists and move on. Your obsession with this issue is affecting other editors, and is detrimental to our community. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:01, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• I closed the RfC. I doubt wither side will like the close much. Guy (Help!) 13:35, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

is the close - which is exactly what I was asking for. "There is a remarkable degree of heat given that this is basically tabloid tittle-tattle. As Collect notes, agreement of various editors cannot trump policy: independent sources establish that the term is at least somewhat speculative, and even the subject of the claim appears not to have used it." (more follows which does not alter the basic premise for the close). Thanks. Collect (talk) 18:19, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "he subject of the claim appears not to have used it" - another false claim that has been disproven by a direct quote. Christ, do you have anything new to present? EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 06:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

It should probably be noted that Collect reverted back to his desired version after the discussion had been officially closed and it had been determined that the RfC was not in his favor. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 03:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Ticket to Sydney, anyone? Erpert 05:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• I'm going to post the RfC close in its entirety below so that there is no question of what it says. Softlavender (talk) 07:26, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

There is a remarkable degree of heat given that this is basically tabloid tittle-tattle. As Collect notes, agreement of various editors cannot trump policy: independent sources establish that the term is at least somewhat speculative, and even the subject of the claim appears not to have used it in the unambiguous sense supported by some editors here. The solution is to use attribution and to take care not to exceed what is stated by the sources (e.g: "Mrs Gillespie was once the secret lover of Australian prime minister Harold Holt - or the alleged secret lover, as has frequently been recorded in the years following Holt's disappearance and prior to her own - as is reporting convention." from the Aus. Daily Telegraph). Terms such as "claimed lover" or "alleged lover" would not violate policy, an overt claim of "lover" probably does, from my reading of this debate, the sources and the relevant policies. And omitting it altogether? That would be perfect. Guy (Help!) 13:13, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• It should also be noted, again, that the quote "Harold Holt's lover" comes directly from Gillespie herself, through a book published by the Australian National University. Whoever closed the RfC probably missed this, along with the fact that the fact was printed by numerous respected publishers, and is therefore notable by Misplaced Pages's standards - not "tabloid tittle-tattle". More importantly, we cannot and should not reward lone warriors who go for days or even weeks after the community had reached a consensus, constantly thwarting everyone's collaborative efforts because they don't like the edit. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not here to fight windmills. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 11:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Also, Collect's behavior has been the same throughout this ordeal, see User talk:Collect#Holt: sticks to the same source that was replaced ages ago in order to disprove claim as "tabloid", while completely ignoring ample new evidence. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 11:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, his tone has indeed been consistently moderate throughout. Yours, not so much. Are we done here? Guy (Help!) 11:35, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I believe they are called civil POV warriors. Pushing their point in a very moderate tone, but consistently repeating what was disproven to them as if no prior discussion happened. This is the one case where moderate tone is not the virtue you look for in an editor. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 13:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Troll reverting my edits

86.187.163.250 is the latest IP of a troll with a vendetta against me. Eik Corell (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I notified the IP User of this on their talkpage. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Don't waste your time. The user does not communicate. They do this until they're banned, then they come back under a new IP. Instead, give me a hand by reverting all their edits. I sure do need the help. Eik Corell (talk) 17:36, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I have blocked this IP for disruptive editing. When an IPs only edits are to revert a single person it is pretty clear they are not new here and are using an IP to avoid edit warring blocks. If this same thing happens you can drop a note on my talk page. HighInBC 17:56, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• They're back as 86.187.162.202. Maybe someone can keep an eye on the affected articles and throw a rangeblock this way. I'll ping DVdm and ScrapIronIV since they've been on the case, knowingly or not. Drmies (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

  Yup, all of those contribs have been reverted. And they are all on my Watchlist. Scr★pIron 19:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

They're back again, this time as as 86.187.165.250. Scr★pIron 21:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I've put in a rangeblock (86.187.160.0/21) for a few days. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:05, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I am glad someone better with range blocks was able to help here. HighInBC 22:29, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the rangeblock and the page protects, all. Unfortunately, this one - 86.187.171.62 - has slipped back in. Only one article Blade & Soul affected, as it is the only one that was not page protected. Scr★pIron 15:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

User:NMMGG. Persistent refusal to stop suggesting my editing at Ezra Nawi has personal motives.

At Ezra Nawi, I thought on a WP:BLP article, it was obligatory to get the precise nature of the conviction clear as given in reports of Israeli court records which judged the relationship ‘consensual’. Every attempt to explain this necessity has been met by personal innuendoes as to my putative motivations. In repeating these innuendoes User:Bad Dryer was indeffed (see here).

The author of the innuendo, User:No More Mr Nice Guy persists in alluding to this, and suggests I am embarrassed by what I have written, embarrassed to the point of backpedalling, and too embarrassed to report him. The record is:

• (1) Did you get that from NAMBLA promotional material?
• (2) Considering you repeatedly tried to justify a 45 year old having sex with a 15 year old, NAMBLA does indeed come to mind. 20:35, 29 January 2016
• (3) That's not what you said on the Ezra Nawi talk page, but kudos for feeling embarrassed enough to try to backpedal 21:31, 31 January 2016‎
• (4)Duly registered, meaning you won't report it because you're too embarrassed that what you said will get a wider audience.

WP:NPA Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Misplaced Pages. Comment on content, not on the contributor. . . Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks.

These insinuations, fishing expeditions, challenges, and suggestions that on the topic of statutory rape I am 'embarrassed' or 'backtracking' and 'justify' it are as repetitive as those made by Bad Dryer. The editor some years ago tried to put it over I was an anti-Semite, and the case led to his banning from WP:AE. In both cases, the behavior is the same, language crafted to provoke some personal exchange by insinuating I have some dubious personal fixations. Nishidani (talk) 20:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Here is the statement I was responding to. The discussion is about a minor who was the the cause of a statutory rape conviction against the topic of the article. I think the statement speaks for itself. I will only note that there's not a single source that makes this argument (unsurprisingly) or that puts the word "victim" in quotes (again, unsurprisingly).

As for the AE case, if someone wants to look into how a single admin closed an harassment case within 24 hours based on an assumption of bad faith, I would welcome that. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• NMMGG's diff shows Nishidani adding a comment, but let's start from the beginning of that section, namely the first post at Talk:Ezra Nawi#NMMGG WP:OR. That post shows this diff of NMMNG editing the article to insert "statutory rape" at the beginning of a list of reasons for the BLP subject being convicted. Problem: the source does not mention "rape", statutory or otherwise. The source (nytimes.com) uses Nishidani's text that NMMNG replaced with rape in primary position. Johnuniq (talk) 07:18, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

NMMGG construed (a) as personal advocacy (b)and said I repeatedly asserted this (putative)personal advocacy when I was, on the talk page, justifying an edit by citing what the sources stated (not my views). He then furthered suggested my position was identical to that of NAMBLA, an organization I'd never heard of.

The text he cites for my views is a patchwork of paraphrases and quotations.

'Victim' in quotes is required because the ostensible victim of his statutory rape refused to testify against him. The complaint was brought by the boy's parents, not him. And it was consensual, as his minimal sentence indicated. A victim is 'person who has been attacked, injured, robbed, or killed by someone else. : a person who is cheated or fooled by someone else. : someone or something that is harmed by an unpleasant event (such as an illness or accident)', which, from the sources does not appear to be how the Palestinian saw this. In five years he never laid a complaint.

I let this pass, but leaving it go, has only lead to a follow-up train of nudging insinuations about what he fantasies to be my personal views. I can't see how this is not talking about the editor, rather than focusing on the content, as is required under WP:NPA. I am not calling for a ban. I am asking the board to get him to drop his puerile attempt to be a psychologist, which is proving disruptive to editing that page.Nishidani (talk) 16:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

A. Those are indeed your views. Not a single source says the minor was not a victim or puts quotes around the word "victim", not to mention argues about the dictionary definition of "victim". B. Anyone following the diffs above can clearly see that every single time I was responding to you bringing the subject up. All you have to do is drop it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:03, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

'Not a single source says the minor was not a victim'. Put that another way: 'What sources state that the minor was a victim'? as opposed to the sources that mention the case and do not use the word 'victim'?Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

You can't have consensual sex with a minor, so regardless if it was "consensual" and the victim allowed it, and there was not enough evidence in the court of law to convict, just because the victim didn't testify doesn't mean there was no victim. What is the age of consent? Victims often times don't testify because they are scared or because they don't want to relive the rape. That doesn't mean that there was no victim. Sir Joseph 18:37, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

This is not the point. It is obvious Nawi broke the law and deserved a prison sentence of at least 6 months (unlike the 30 IDF soldiers who had 'consensual' sex with a 12-13 year old Israeli girl for 2 years, and got 3-6 weeks camp detention. They got off lightly, being neither homosexual or human rights activists.)

NMMGG said I repeatedly tried to justify a 45 year old (sic=37-8 year old) having sex with a 15 year old.All we have is a link to my summary of sources. He is obliged to document where I (suppoadly) repeatedly did this. If he can prove his claim is validated by several remarks I made, fine. If he can't then he has been engaged with a decidedly serious piece of calumny, which he repeated above, in the face of my objections ('Those are indeed your views.').Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

That could be because you still say you should put victim in quotes. Just because the kid didn't testify doesn't make him not a victim. That is all I'm saying. Sir Joseph 20:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh good grief. I made an argument for that proposition. When the consensus said no, I didn't engage in a revert war or persist ('still'). I think the word 'victim' contradicts the word 'consensual', since it implies 'violence'. But, nota bene, I did not erase it, or substitute it with another term. It was a WP:BLP fine line call. Everyone in this area should know I am extremely finicky about niceties of usage. If, we have only Nawi's word for it, the 15 year old persisted in phoning him and wanting to stay at his home, then that doesn't fit the normal sense of 'victim'. Massie for one says there was 'no real victim'. John Costello and Dearbhail McDonald instead say the minor was a victim. You have a split in opinion in the sources, and when that occurs one has a simple choice, battle over 'victim' to keep or excise it according to a POV, or, as I did retain 'victim' in inverted commas, to signal the controversy. It's as simple as that, so simple NMMGG, convinced he has some specialist insight into my personal outlook, thinks he can smear me as pushing some NAMBLA agenda, when I am simply trying to edit a difficult article according to commonsense. Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

User:Bad Dryer was blocked indefinitely by Drmies, and the block upheld by both Liz and HighInBC, for insinuating that Nishidani's BLP concerns at Ezra Nawi are motivated by some kind of paedophilic tendency.

Sir Joseph maintains the blocks result from Misplaced Pages's "shameful" bias against "pro-Israeli" editors , and No More Mr Nice Guy agrees. Despite this, NMMNG has themselves, at talk:Ezra Nawi, three times repeated the gross and insulting ad hominem that insinuates Nishidani's somehow pro-NAMBLA editing. NMMNG also defended Bad Dryer's insinuations before that user was indeff'd - which isn't surprising since they've repeated this themselves.

If NMMNG can't accept how disruptive it is to approach this topic while accusing other editors of some kind of paedophilia, they should not be editing here. -Darouet (talk) 00:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I am coming here in response to the ping. In my opinion trying to gain advantage of a content dispute by accusing someone of child abuse is about the most egregious violation of WP:NPA that I can think of off the topic of my head. This includes hinting at it and slyly(or not so slyly) insinuating it. It was an easy decision to decline that unblock request.

I find it difficult to imagine a context where this would be appropriate, however as I have not looked into the context I will leave it for others to decide. HighInBC 00:51, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Pointing out that an editor is using similar tactics and justifications as groups like NAMBLA is not a violation of NPA when someone is using scare quotes around 'victim' in order to whitewash someones criminal acts. That last diff you posted was in response to this comment - "'Victim' in quotes is required because the ostensible victim of his statutory rape refused to testify against him. The complaint was brought by the boy's parents, not him." - that is straight out of a rape-apologists arsenal and a very common justification for abuse of minors. From a child-protection point of view I will straight away suspect someone who uses that reasoning. It effectively boils down to 'they wanted it'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:30, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

A good example of what happens when persistent loose insinuations by one established editor feed in to our work, and set up a whispering campaign. Now I am accused of 'whitewashing' a criminal act for using an orthographic device to bring people's attention to an issue requiring discussion.Nishidani (talk) 09:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

'Scare quotes'?!! Oh dear me, look I'm a philologist. One of the primary functions of inverted commas is 'to mark off a word or phrase that is being discussed' My edit suggestion was accompanied by opening a discussion on the talk page, for which I was insulted. Has the precise instruction on grammatical and verbal niceties been wholly lost in the past decades? It looks like it, and one of the consequences is that, not reading closely, editors tend to read into innocent words or devices all sorts of weird psychological conjectures, as here.Nishidani (talk) 08:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

In an isolated environment you would probably be correct. When you follow it up with arguments that seek to deny victimhood and excuse rape of a minor, I am more skeptical of the motives involved. "They didnt make the complaint" is not an argument you want to be making when talking about rape victims. Oh and "Its a philogical matter" is also equally suspect. When you fall back on grammatical technicalities in order to advance an argument, it generally indicates the actual position has very little weight. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:00, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

'Fall back' (i.e. NMMGG's 'backpedal').In a WP:BLP article. I used no arguments to excuse the rape of a minor, and I would ask you to retract that. I cited sources that state the minor, throughout the case, was 'reluctant' to testify against the man with whom he had a 'consensual' relationship. Nawi himself admitted immediately he was guilty, apparently, so it would be absurd for someone like me to deny what sources confirm. You, like NMMGG, are attributing to me positions in the source literature which I cite, which is slipshod reading and, worse still, damaging. You are not helping clarify this issue by making frivolous and offensive quips that pretend to 'read' into my remarks some private bias in favour of abuses of this kind.Nishidani (talk) 09:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

If you want to maintain to make arguments that because a minor didnt make the complaint and was reluctant to testify it means their victimhood is in "discussion", feel free. You will however be judged accordingly. You have a preferred content version, you have made arguments as to why it should be that version, if it wasnt your opinion you are either playing a devil's advocate or you are misusing sources to push a POV. Since none of the sources deny he was a victim of a crime, using sources that indicate he was unwilling to testify to imply he wasnt a victim is OR. Either way muttering about orthographic devices just makes you look like you are making excuses to distance yourself from your previous remarks. I suggest if you dont want to be seen to be a rape apologist, stop making arguments rape apologists make. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:49, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

'stop making arguments rape apologists make.' That makes you at least the fourth person to take up the slur introduced by NMMGG, and further evidence as to why he should retract an insinuation that questions my integrity. Nishidani (talk) 10:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Then perhaps you should listen. Generally if multiple people have an issue with you, the problem is not always with them. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I knew this kind of mudslinging against Nishidani would occur. This is why I suggested that these things be not treated with a sledgehammer. This is a delicate matter, and discussion should be focused on content, which was mostly what was happening on the talk page. In such an issue, it is hard to separate out personal feelings from the issue, some of which happened.

I have opened a block review of Bad Dryer on WP:AN as well. In my opinion, the block was unfair and harsh and only serves the drama god.

In contrast, in this discussion, Only in death has stated multiple times that Nishidani is a "rape apologist", or is simply mouthing arguments that "rape apologists" make, and cast aspersions on Nishidani's motives. This is much more of an NPA that Bad Dryer has engaged in. And more importantly, it only inflames the issue. Only in death is free to think whatever they like of Nishidani, but commenting at ANI does not give one a license to engage in serious personal attacks with abandon. There are many people I don't like here, and there are others who don't like me.

No More Mr Nice Guy should be warned (at the very least) about personalizing disputes with Nishidani. This kind of thing has been going on for a long time. It is well known that NMMNG does not like Nishidani (some of the background has been given by Nishidani above), but there is no reason to be needlessly inflammatory, especially in a delicate matter like this. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Nishidani is making the exact same arguments people who try to excuse sex with minors make. If he doesnt want to face accusations that he may be editing from a sympathetic viewpoint he shouldnt make the same sympathetic arguments. NAMBLA always bring up the victims lack of 'victimhood' in this situation because the argument *only* serves their agenda in attempting to push the viewpoint sex with minors is permissable. Just because Nishidani supposedly has more integrity, does not excuse him when he makes the same sympathetic arguments. Like I said, dont want to be accused of being sympathetic to a point of view? Dont make shitty arguments that proponents of that POV make. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Only in death: Have you heard of the term "guilt by association"? You can address the argument without associating people with organizations they have never heard of, who happen to make the argument for their own reasons. If I oppose smoking due to cigarettes causing cancer, are you going to associate me with Nazis because they were among the first to make the argument? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Guilt by association is not the same as sharing a sympathetic viewpoint. If you started editing articles in a manner that suggested Jews were not victims because of <insert Nazi argument> I would expect you to be called out as being sympathetic to the Nazis. Nishidani made edits that advanced the viewpoint the minor was not a victim and used NAMBLA arguments. If they didnt expect to get grief over that they are either unaware of what NAMBLA advocates (in which case they shouldnt be touching content that involves sex with minors) or they are just incredible naive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

For the third time you have asserted:' Nishidani made edits that advanced the viewpoint the minor was not a victim and used NAMBLA arguments.' Retract it.Nishidani (talk) 16:42, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I tell you what, I won't say you are using NAMBLA arguments and in return you stop trying to justify a minor wasn't a victim because he didn't complain about it, deal? Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

After being warned multiple times by multiple people, Only in death refuses to comply. Admin action is needed, this is WP:ANI after all. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I think it's clear that both No More Mr Nice Guy and Only in death need to stop their aspersions, comparisons, and personal attacks immediately (including here and on that article and talk page and anywhere else on Misplaced Pages), or face immediate blocks, topic bans, or IBans. Softlavender (talk) 13:15, 3 February 2016 (UTC); edited 13:32, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I am still asking for a reply from NMMGG to a legitimate query. He said:

Not a single source says the minor was not a victim. No More Mr Nice Guy 18:03, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

He was implying that many sources used in the article state the minor was a victim, and that I was evidently in flagrant defiance of that source consensus.

I therefore requested him to clarify:

'Not a single source says the minor was not a victim'. Put that another way: 'What sources state that the minor was a victim'? as opposed to the sources that mention the case and do not use the word 'victim'? Nishidani 20:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Apart from clearing my record of an ugly insinuation that has gathered some converts to the calumny, the point is that whatever language goes into a text must reflect the balance of sources.

So NMMGG. Please address this query, and possibly explain why, in a compromise edit when I reintroduced the word victim without inverted commas, your next edit erased it.Nishidani (talk) 16:42, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

This is why people are questions things. A minor can't be not a victim. There's no such thing as consensual sex under the age of consent. Sir Joseph 16:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Are people expected to believe that the likes of NMMNG and the person who operates the Bad Dryer account or the kind of right wing Israel supporters who are attracted to Misplaced Pages, editors with long histories of advocacy and patently biased editing, are showing concern for the well being of a Palestinian child, their treatment in the real world and here on Misplaced Pages? I hope not because that notion is absurd as anyone familiar with these editors should know by now. None of this drama would have happened if Nawi had been an Israeli soldier and shot and killed the boy. What we have here is faux concern for the way Misplaced Pages treats a Palestinian child used as cover for the cynical exploitation of an opportunity to target a BLP of a perceived enemy of the State of Israel and harass Nishidani in a vindictive and cowardly way, all done behind masks of anonymity. Genuine issues with the content will not get sorted out in a drama-free way by collaborating with people whose priority is to advocate for the State of Israel in a BLP about an anti-settlement activist. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:34, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

That's right. Only Palestinians should be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages. Sir Joseph 17:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Well I am not right wing, or an Israel supporter and have no history of advocacy (or even editing in any meaningful way in the IP area), so I guess I'm exhibiting faux concern too? I assure you if Nawi had shot and killed a boy and editors started scare quoting 'Victim' in Nawi's biography we would be having a very similar conversation about their motives. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know you or your editing so there is no reason to think you are exhibiting faux concern. Maybe you can help improve the article since your priority is not to advocate for the State of Israel in a BLP about an anti-settlement activist. If Nawi had been an IDF soldier and shot the boy there would be no biography. But if there were, it would be nominated for deletion by an editor whose priority is to advocate for the State of Israel. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I hope I'm not the only one who appreciates the irony of Sean's statement above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

This is drifting. Stay focused, and kindly reply to my request above. Chat just buries a serious issue.Nishidani (talk) 18:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Which request? For sources that call the minor a victim? Here you go: victim, victim, Nawi's friend Norris calling him a victim, and a Norris supporter calling him a victim. That took one google search to find, and some of those are already in the article.

The reason I thought you were discussing your opinion rather than that of sources in this edit is because of the fact the only source you reference is a dictionary, your use of "ostensible victim", and your claim that it doesn't "appear" the minor saw himself as a victim, when no source whatsoever brings any kind of statement from the minor, only the fact he didn't testify. Rape victims often don't want to testify. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

That's replying to something I did not ask. You wrote:Not a single source says the minor was not a victim.

You can't see the equivocation in your sentence. This place is the despair of grammarians or precisians. You sentence implies:'every source says the minor was a victim', which is obviously untrue.3 small circulation Irish sources (in a country whose press never breathed a word for several decades of their own dirty linen, the widespread abuse of children by priests and Christian brothers) and one by an Irish correspondent for the English tabloid The Daily Mail, limited to the period of one week in 2011 when the aim was to shipwreck Norris's bid for the Presidency of Ireland use 'victim'. The numerous English-language Israeli sources for Nawi we use do not adopt 'victim' as the default term. They say:'statutory rape of a 15-year-old boy/minor'. Sources say the Israeli court found the relationship 'consensual', correct or not, and I stand by my point that, however morally contemptuous sex by an older man with a 15 year old may be, using from a short list of sources the word victim, when the indication so far is that it was consensual, is improper. You of course never explained why, when I reintroduced, after talk page discussion, the word 'victim', you immediately elided it from the lead.

It is true that Palestinian minors sexually abused or sodomised by Israeli soldiers while the latter hold them in detention are reluctant to denounce the fact for fear of retribution. In 1990 the boys' parents had no qualms about reporting it to Israeli courts, but the boy wouldn't apparently testify against him. When S.Hoyland talked of editors' nationalism, I presume he means that when an Israeli civil rights activist has a dark mark in his distant past, it is played up by many editors with a nationalist POV agenda for all its worth as they express outrage. But when the same kind of abuse (mass rape of a minor) is reported in army bases, of eminent diplomats, the same editors keep mum: it is not for our Misplaced Pages. They don't rush to edit in the scandal, as they do if the issue touches an activist for Palestinian rights, even if it occurred 25 years ago, and, since then thousands of Palestinians have trusted him not to molest their children as he takes them on those summer camps which the Israeli army would otherwise forbid them to enjoy. Unlike Sean, I think it both inevitable and not necessarily all bad, that many editors will defend their own countries' image and interests, and don't object if they have sharp eyes and high standards for sources and texts. I object when their concern spills over into patent smears, niggling, jabbing away, trying to play on the nerves (pointless at my age, when most of them are dead) which is the case here.Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't think I'm required to engage with that long SOAPBOX. You asked for sources. I provided them. I explained why I said what I said. At least one person who has no connection to the IP topic has also said he found your comments, shall we say, outside the mainstream, so all these attempts to claim there's some kind of nationalistic background for this fall flat. If any uninvolved editor has any questions for me, please ping me. Otherwise I'm done here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay you refuse to listen. All I am asking for is that NMMGG be asked to strike out or retract the personal insinuations he invented from his fantasy about my ostensible ulterior motives. The adoption of the calumny he started led to one indeff, because the person kept repeating it until well past the brink. Two other editors here have taken it up. He is responsible for this crap, and he should shut up and focus, and do useful editing, like finding this source which I found to be deadlinked. It's worth reading. The man who wrote it lost his bid for the Presidency of Ireland, just for expressing an informed clemency for Nawi. That smear was big time, and NMMGG's is peanuts. But I have to work here, with him, and this means he must learn to focus on content, and not sneer with sleazy innuendos every other time we encounter each other,Nishidani (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

"Learn to focus on content, and not sneer with sleazy innuendos" like the time you told a group of editors that we lack "capacity for pity and horror" that is not "ethnic-exclusive"? That's a fine thing for one editor to say to another. Not sleazy at all. Would you like to elaborate on what ethnicity you were referring to, before you take the beam out of your own eye? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:07, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Content issues are not usually discussed on WP:ANI - the article talkpage should be used. Regardless of who is right, stop saying that Nishidani justified child abuse or use guilt by association with NAMBLA. That is the bottom line. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

What's a content issue? My capacity for pity and horror that is not "ethnic exclusive"? Was that a joke? The bottom line in this case is that your concern about NPA seems to be quite selective. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

We're under an obligation to edit in such a manner that both sides are duly represented. Thus, I, for one, am obliged to edit in tragic material not only re Palestinians but Israelis as attested in RS. I've done that everyday for years, i.e.,here,here,and here. It may be a defect of cursory knowledge but I only see you editing to minutely control material deleterious to Israel or editing articles re Palestinians when there is something negative to be showcased (Ezra Nawi, 2000 Ramallah lynching. You're not alone, and it reflects the fact that mainstream Israeli papers focus intensely on whatever violence affects Israelis or settlers, but generally ignore what happens to Palestinians. This exclusively negative or defensive focus in editors breaks no rule. But the pattern of refusing to consider that there are two sides to any question and accept that one must strive to see both perspectives, is obvious.

In the present case, you made an extraordinary set of claims about my bias.You stated:

• Not a single source says the minor was not a victim.
• I came forth with a disproof of this:Alex Massie in The Spectator specifically wrote:

• though in a technical sense a crime had been committed there was no malice involved and no real victim.

You asserted a claim re sources which I showed was false. What was your reaction?

Excise;revert out;delete;erase

No real argument. Just repeated removal of information that contradicted your assertion. In an empirical world, one adjusts one's ideas as new information shows them to be inexact. In a partisan mindset, one suppresses any information which contradicts one's beliefs. At least do me the courtesy of retracting your assertion that I repeatedly justify sex with minors and the insinuation I act as a proxy for an obnoxious paedophile organization. Two people who took this up have since retracted. You ran that hare and ought to do the same. There is no evidence for it. Nishidani (talk) 13:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I had a good laugh when you said you strive to see both perspectives, considering I caught you more than once falsifying sources to push your POV. As I said above, I'm not going to engage with your soapboxing, and you can add strawmen and self-righteous bullshit to that. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

That tone and misrepresentation only serves to underline my point that some admin should sum up the general community comments here, take notice of the fact that you refuse to withdraw a remark one person was indeffed for, and 2 others withdrew or dropped from repeating, and ask you to simply retract it. That done, one can get back to serious things, like editing. Nishidani (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Any admin can read the discussion that resulted in your personal attack against me here and see if what I said above is a misrepresentation. It includes two quite straightforward examples of source falsification to push a POV. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Of course there's a content dispute involved, but Nishidani should not be expected to have to continue participating with respect and patience when doing so means being repeatedly slandered with allegations of support for paedophilia, and a generally sneering attitude. That is the cheapest and most egregious form of ad hominem, obviously contrary to WP:NPA, and it rightfully got Bad Dryer banned. Kingsindian, HighInBC and others have requested that you quit it, No More Mr Nice Guy, and you refuse. Unfortunately your conduct is living up to your chosen user name. This kind of behavior is rare among regular editors but when it appears makes Misplaced Pages a toxic, unpleasant and unproductive place. -Darouet (talk) 21:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you look up where Nishidani quoted someone who wrote that there was no real victim. That is the issue, that while it was consensual, there is still a victim becasue the kid was underage, even if it was consensual. Sir Joseph 21:29, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

My attitude towards Nishidani reflects his attitude towards me. I can give dozens of examples like the personal attack I mentioned just above, which you for some reason are completely ignoring. Also nobody said he's supporting pedophilia. That's ridiculous. Pedophilia involves prepubescent children, not 15 year olds. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:38, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

User:Max Araldi

Max Araldi is an obvious sock of indeffed editor Alec Smithson (more than half of his 12 edits are to pages created by Smithson, note also the userspace tabs copied from mine). Bringing this here because he also claims to be a checkuser, edit filter manager and oversighter. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I've struck the claims of them being an Oversighter, Edit Filter manager and OTRS volunteer least anyone who is looking for help is misled. Amortias (T)(C) 21:16, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Anyone? Isn't there something we usually do when a blocked editor creates a sock? Smithson is straight back to his old ways: Gazzetta di Venezia, which "Max Araldi" created today, is an unattributed and totally incompetent translation from the corresponding article on it.wp, and thus yet another copyright violation. This is a highly disruptive editor, and I'm still working through his articles providing attribution where necessary. Please, at the very least, prevent him from creating any more. Of course, if anyone can suggest how the IP block evasion could be stopped as well, that'd be better still; I'm not clever enough to see any pattern in the IPs, other than them all being in Italy. The discussion that led to Smithson being blocked is in Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive908. Thanks, Amortias, for removing those deceptive claims. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I blocked them based on behavioral similarity to Alec Smithson; note that I am not a CU.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:27, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

MfD of WP:Reform of Misplaced Pages

Could I please request that several admins go through this discussion and stop the incivility and bludgeoning that is occurring in various !votes and comments by various users on both sides. I am aware that this is not the 'typical' board for this type of request, but several users may need to be brought here because of comments on the essay/proposal's talkpage and the MfD. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 02:43, 2 February 2016 (UTC) Also posting on WP:AN

@Drcrazy102: I have put a general note on the discussion for everyone to keep calm. I thought about closing the discussion, but that would probably cause more disruption that it solves, so I've !voted (to userfy) and suggest the MfD runs for the full 7 days. I have dropped an NPA warning on James500's talk as he seems to be making the most ad hominem comments. Ritchie333 10:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. You are right that I and several others would be fine with this in user space, as the correct venue for quixotic proposals by people with - ahem - certain fixed views on content that have failed to gain consensus. Guy (Help!) 13:04, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Possible block evasion of KrazyKlimber and IP 101.182.100.189 as IPs 203.17.215.22 and 203.17.215.26

Both users make repetitive similar edits of Jonathan Mitchell that contribute nothing. Both are from Australia. Is there anything that can be done about it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=KrazyKlimber&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2016&month=-1

https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/101.182.100.189

https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/203.17.215.22

https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/203.17.215.26

Yes, I am aware that I shouldn't have directly edited the article as a CoI, but he put undue pressure on me as KrazyKlimber to disclose it when I didn't think it was necessary, as my relationship is tangential. Also, KrazyKlimber has a CoI with him, but I will say no more on the matter.

Ylevental (talk) 03:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Additionally, he is making personal off-site accusations about me as he did under KrazyKlimber at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=702879655 Namely "I know however where he's going otherwise and that I admit to. He's trouble with a capital T and is creating a reputation for himself as a troublemaker within the Autistic community. I am quite entitled to pull him up on it" Ylevental (talk) 05:04, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Most of this looks like an issue for SPI. The fact that the Australian IPs mentioned what you do outside of here in a discussion on-wiki is something of a problem, but SPI seems more useful here. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 04:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

181.134.2.199 reported by Meters

181.134.2.199 (contributions) appears to be trolling but since it is just barely possible this is a case of incompetence instead I'll take this here rather than to AIV. Either way it seems time for a block.

Every edit has been a comment or question that had no place in the article and was immediately undone by other users or bots. There has been no response or change in behaviour after multiple warnings on the user's talk page (other than perhaps just enough of a break for warnings to start over at level 1).

See , , , , , , , and Meters (talk) 04:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• Yeah, you never know... I left a note; if this happens again we should block. Thanks Meters. Drmies (talk) 05:20, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Feels like I'm bending over backwards here, but if it isn't good faith it's just sneaky enough to raise a whisper of a doubt. Meters (talk) 05:43, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• It looks like the user isn't aware that articles have talkpages, or that they themselves have one. If this condition persists after Drmies' warning, I agree there will be no other recourse than to block. The edits are timed quite far apart, so I'd suggest a block of a couple of weeks; we don't want them to miss it. (It's a static IP.) Once, or if, they respond constructively, they can be unblocked. Bishonen | talk 11:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC).

Harassment by User:Rpo.castro

Rpo.castro has been harrassing me on my talk page by reverting my cleanups - he is aware that he shouldn't do it-, following a dispute in S.C. Braga. It's not the first time he harrasses me. He has been blocked for using multiple accounts after I reported it (I reported him for that). He also wrote once that he would not mind to vandalize S.L. Benfica. SLBedit (talk) 20:41, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Better check first here to check harrassement. This is one of its attemps of harrassing me, which I didn't have reason, again. Rpo.castro (talk) 21:07, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

You didn't put a notice on my talk. SLBedit (talk) 21:20, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

That was months ago, and doesn't excuse your behavior. You should not be reverting anything on his talk page.142.105.159.60 (talk) 21:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't me who bring that discussion to here in first place. I've just copied the link from SLBedit first edit.Rpo.castro (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Rpo.castro | this edit isn't vandalism. He was blanking your entry | here . To me this looks like an edit war, in which neither party has clean hands. SLBedit is edit waring and claiming vandalism, it also looks like SLBedit is edit warring as well on the page, and is claiming WP:Footy as a reason not to use the term "Runner up", which looks like local consensus to me.

He started to remove content here with the argument "here is no such thing as runners-up in league". Then I rerverted, and I advised him to consult to check. The he just reverted with no reason. This is not vandalism? At least is disruptive editing.

To his credit, SLBedit looks to have | discussed "runner up" status with WP:FOOTY here , and it looks like that topic has come up | a few | times in | the past . I'd suggest locking the page so that a consensus can be reached on that page, for that page . KoshVorlon 22:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

He only to start to discuss in WP:FOOTY, one day after he made the reversions. Not discussed first in any talk page. The issue was discussed numerous times. All whitout consensus. Its reasonable re-opening endeless times until one sides gets tired and the other wins?Rpo.castro (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I reported harassment/disruptive editing by Rpo.castro in talk page. SLBedit (talk) 22:46, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Fastifex

Can someone please take a look into Fastifex (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? (I'm off to sleep.) He has been around since 2006, reactivated recently, and seem to have WP:CIR issues. He moves pages around at a pretty high rate, creating totally uncalled-for dab pages and . His talk page is littered with bot notifications and explanations how Misplaced Pages works, but he seems to continue his Mission unabated. No such user (talk) 22:27, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Wow. I can't even follow all these moves, redirects, and double redirects. You need charts and graphs and an easel to wrap your head around it all. He was blocked four times in 2006 for this kind of thing so he definitely knows better. Katie 02:15, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. This is definitely concerning. I suggest warning the user to stop all of these moves and redirects until all of the concerns are resolved in this ANI thread. If the activity continues despite the warning and request for a discussion here, I'd almost say go ahead with a block until we hear back. The rate in which this is occurring is too high for comfort in my opinion. ~Oshwah~ 03:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

The Burca dab page seems to be erroneous as well as unnecessary. The first entry appears to be an error for Barca (ancient city), making the only valid entries the genus and the Romanian village, which is already linked via hatnote from Burca (genus). (The hatnote made more sense when the title of the article was plain "Burca".) Deor (talk) 12:00, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I've encouraged Fastifex to participate here, because I'm this close to giving him an indef block for disruption until he realizes the damage he's causing. Katie 13:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Pinging BD2412 who has dealt with Fastifex before, and issued several warnings already. No such user (talk) 12:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

To me, this underscores exactly why we should revive the idea of having a page at Misplaced Pages:Disambiguations for discussion, for consensus-based resolution to propositions that a given title should or should not be a disambiguation page. Disambiguation is a big deal, potentially very messy, and should generally be discussed in a single place before that mess is created. bd2412 T 13:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

66.94.202.246

IP editor previously banned 2 weeks (Jan 18) for unsourced changes, no edit summaries, and not engaging on Talk. Block has now expired and IP immediately resumed prior behavior. User talk:66.94.202.246#February 2016. UW Dawgs (talk) 00:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

The disruption caused by this editor is tremendous. We'll need an army to go through his numerous year and number changes to check for the many, many errors he's introduced into articles. 02:30, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I have been policing this user's edits (their IP address seems to change every few months but the editing style is identical, one IP address was blocked for a month) on and off for over a year now and while the user has gotten somewhat "better," they continue to be unresponsive. The editor has actually found some factual inaccuracies and recently has seemed to be acting in good faith. Unfortunately, they also don't seem to fact check many of the dates and have never used the Edit Summary to explain why they are making the changes. With their continually switching IP address I am not sure how long a block will last, but it is better than nothing. (see User talk:66.94.206.60, User talk:66.94.209.81, User talk:66.94.195.79, and User talk:66.94.205.235 in reverse chronological order) Yosemiter (talk) 03:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

It's 66.94.192.0/19, too much collateral damage for a rangeblock. If he doesn't respond here during his usual editing time today, I'm willing to block this single IP for as long as three months. (Am I the only one thinking that someone editing from 'Family Video Movie Club' is a guy sitting in the back room of a video store who's bored out of his mind?) Katie 13:10, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Craig Busch

This article has a long history consisting of single-purpose accounts deleting all material critical of the subject. I am not really sure how best to proceed. There are neutrality concerns in the article, and the subject is a living person, but I don't see the section blanking and censorship to be appropriate. Some administrator insight into this page would be useful. --Azure Anteater (talk) 03:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Such issues are generally handled at WP:RPP, but I doubt the article will be protected as it doesn't appear to get much activity. Erpert 05:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I have pending changes protected for some time. Lectonar (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Golbez

Golbez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Golbez wrote, "What should happen: People ignore Victor and return this talk page to the business of discussing the page instead of politics. What will happen: TheVirginiaHistorian, The Four Deuces will respond to Victor telling him how wrong his babby's-first-libertarian politics are, Victor will respond back with another couple paragraphs about how awesome Republicans are and how evil liberals are, and this bullshit will continue unabated.

I told Golbez to remove the personal attacks, and he replied, "Yay, adult supervision!"

This is part of Talk:United States#Edit break for Proposals, where VictorD7 asked editors to choose between two alternatives. I opposed both.

Golbez's comments are not helpful and I would ask other editors to explain that to him.

TFD (talk) 05:10, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Comments like this are pretty uncivil, but I'm not sure it's a personal attack. I also think this is a content dispute, not a matter for ANI. Erpert 05:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, since we're here... There is a discussion on the talk page as to how to describe the political parties. I'm guessing that roughly 90% of it is incessant political arguing, mostly from VictorD7, but then people - sometimes TheVirginiaHistorian, sometimes our friend TFD here - will respond, and the cycle starts again. It's less a content dispute and more a massively-off-topic dispute that is really monopolizing the traffic of the talk page. It's clear I'm over it. I just don't have the energy or, frankly, knowledge to do anything about it; where does one go to complain that a talk page is being abused? Here? Hardly seems like an admin issue at this juncture. But it is an issue. So, I offer my pointed complaints as to how they're conducting themselves. I know my remarks are not helpful, but yet they are somehow more on topic than what the remarks are snarking against. But considering I have an intense dislike for the three loudest voices in the talk page, I suppose I should do what I said I'd do, hit alt-W, and go on with life. I was once the top contributor to the article, but it's moved on, though not in a direction I'd like (well, the talk page has moved on... the actual article, very little gets accomplished there, in large part because the talk page is so toxic). --Golbez (talk) 05:30, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Old-as-dirt content dispute. Golbez is right that the talk page is toxic, though. Nevertheless, definitely not an ANI matter. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 06:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Clarification on the use of socks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi. I'd like to ask for clarification on whether it's ok to use socks under the following circumstances: (a) I am unable to use my main account due to COI arising from previous edits (b) I will surrender the sock account once its purpose has expired

Obviously it won't be a block evading or vandalizing sock, so should be fine right?

Regards, (Anon. for now) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.231.1 (talk) 07:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Er... if you're using it because you can't use your main account, then aren't you by definition block evading? And if the other account isn't blocked, then why not use that one? --Golbez (talk) 07:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

If you do have COI of some sort, just declare it on your user page. DGG ( talk ) 07:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Can't really do that. There's a pernicious "vandal" reverting all my edits to a particular article, and only my edits to that article. I appreciate I'm being vague, but if I reveal who I am, which page I edit, and what my sock name will be, that vandal will start attacking that account as well. I've already reported this user many times, and there's currently a thread elsewhere where resolution is being discussed. In the meantime can I create socks so as not to attract attention? (Anon) 12:27, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

While you have my sympathies, if you're previously edited this article, I would take great care, particularly if you've ever gotten into any dispute with editors who aren't banned or blocked. At the very least, I strongly suggest you let some admins you trust (but who can't be considered to have a COI when it comes to you) know what you're doing. Nil Einne (talk) 13:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

No, that's not a valid use of an alternate account - although I sympathize, you're specifically using it to hide your conflict of interest. See WP:SCRUTINY. I also suggest letting the admin processes work out to rid you of this vandal, and perhaps use COI edit requests from your main account. A vandal blanking posts from talk pages is very easy to spot. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree with that Jytdog said below that it doesn't sound like anon is trying to hide a COI but rather they want to hide from a vandal. However if it's only one article, I don't quite get why semiprotection doesn't work. Nil Einne (talk) 06:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I would bet a pound that the "vandal" is reverting promotional edits tot he article where the OP has a COI. Either way, this is unquestionably not a valid use of an alternate account. Guy (Help!) 10:07, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• I don't ~think~ the OP meant "COI" as in "conflict of interest" because if they did, what they wrote in (a) is nonsense and horrible. ( a COI arises when somebody with an external interest wants to edit a topic related to that interest here in WP - the conflict is between their obligation to WP and their obligation to the external interest -- it doesn't arise from "previous edits".... and socking to "duck" a COI is not acceptable in any way). I think they just meant "conflict" - as in an ongoing dispute with some other editor. Original poster, would you please clarify? Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Editor and a possible sock embedding hardcore porn in Misplaced Pages article

I have done nothing wrong and I do not appreciate being accused like this. The editor who made the accusation, User:Betty Logan, is the editor who uploaded "hardcore porn" movie Debbie Does Dallas to Commons and embedded it in the Debbie Does Dallas article in the first place. And my user name has absolutely nothing to do with masturbation, thank you very much. Right Hand Drive (talk) 14:38, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Llihybbag shitting up random articles/promoting his twitter account

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Llihybbag has been warned several times. Appears to have not noticed or not care. Recommend block to start with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dingsuntil (talk • contribs)

Dingsuntil, Gabby stopped ahead of her final warning; for now. If she starts back up, it goes to WP:AIV. 🖖ATinySliver/ 05:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Never mind; blocked by Nihonjoe. 🖖ATinySliver/ 05:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

NOTHERE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user's contribs are brainfucked rants in talk pages nothing else. Distrupting normal work of other editors. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

After two months and 157 edits, it's obvious The5thForce is not here to help, so I've blocked him indefinitely. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:22, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Suspicious account holder

I keep seeing on music articles that I patrol an account name which consists of just numbers and letters, and it only ever makes a small amount of edits over a few days, or just one edit. After this, an account name of the same structure but different numbers and letters makes more edits in same fashion. They are usually unhelpful edits, but I can't work out why there are so many accounts like this. For example, on S&M (song), the account 2601:84:4601:84d1:9982:78f0:7f71:2b made two edits on 2 Feb, I reverted them, then the next day 2601:84:4601:84d1:b059:aea0:18f0:eb67 tried adding the content back again. I've seen this for months now. Someone must be creating multiple accounts and using them for a day or two, or it's a sock puppet. The same thing happened on 15 December 2015 on The Sweet Sweet Fantasy Tour by 2604:2000:9080:9100:703F:1F08:143F:8F49, and on 3 November 2015 on Rated R (Rihanna album) by 2601:86:400:2A61:C055:47D0:7F0A:ECF9. I'm sure it's the same person, the pattern is too regular in how they edit.  — Calvin999 09:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Comment: See IPv6 address. Keri (talk) 09:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

So what does that mean in simple English?  — Calvin999 10:11, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It's a fancy new IP address. It's just like a normal IP address except it's bigger. --Tarage (talk) 10:13, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

So it's the same person and the same account? Or the same person using multiple accounts?  — Calvin999 10:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Each one is an individual IP, so either it's one person using multiple IPs, or a bunch of users using different IPs. Ask yourself the same question if they were just editors with IPs that looked like 123.345.583.574. Would you be worried? --Tarage (talk) 10:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

If there were octets like 345, 583, or 574, I would be worried, but we know what you meant. :-) --David Biddulph (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

If different IPs kept editing the same articles making the same kind of edits, then yeah.  — Calvin999 10:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

That's exactly what it is. They're just IP addresses (in an unfamiliar format) rather than registered accounts' user names. Keri (talk) 10:57, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It's really irritating.  — Calvin999 11:14, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

As mentioned below, if things get too bad then a request for temporary semi-protection at WP:RFPP is the way to go. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:47, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The IPv6 addresses in the S&M article geolocate to the same part of New Jersey and to Comcast (, ). It's safe to assume that's the same person. The IP address at Rated R is also from New Jersey (though in a different but nearby part) and Comcast again, so maybe the same person. The IP address at the Sweet Sweet Fantasy Tour geolocates to Kansas and a different ISP (), so probably not the same person (although my IP address does currently geolocate to Columbia, SC despite being in Hangzhou).

To be completely clear, they are not accounts, those are just a new IP address format (in other words, same ol' anon users as before, different packaging). As such, if things start to get really problematic at S&M (Song), the only real option will be page protection of some sort, since their IP address is about as stable as a drunk elephant on stilts. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Your S&M (Song) IP is one person. See how the first four sets of numbers are the same? That's one network, or one end user. The other two IPs you're talking about, though, are two different networks than the first. We can rangeblock 2601:84:4601:84D1::/64 and get the first guy if he continues, but I don't think we're there yet. Katie 14:24, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Rapid-fire multiple IP vandalism

We seem to have an IP-hopping vandal, adding text in Russian to multiple articles. They initially edited from 213.231.44.68 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). On that IP being blocked, they switched to 109.200.236.173 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Since they seem to have come prepared with access to more than one IP address, presumably we can expect more of the same. -- The Anome (talk) 11:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

And now from 109.200.230.79 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) -- The Anome (talk) 12:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It seems to have stopped, for now. All the IP addresses trace back to the same ISP in Ukraine, so range-blocks are an option. -- The Anome (talk) 12:13, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I spoke too soon: see 109.200.254.21 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). I've now made short-term range-blocks on the ranges of 109.200.0.0/16 and 213.231.0.0/16. -- The Anome (talk) 12:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog's bullying over editing Craig J. N. de Paulo

As per endless discuss on the talk page of Craig J. N. de Paulo, and at the suggestion of another editor, I found serious sources to support the information on this article's page, which were summarily dismissed as "garbage sources" and removed eight citations, including one from the Pennsylvania Council of Churches and the Newsletter for Phenomenology. These are credible sources that support the information on this article's page. Need some help. JustTryintobeJust (talk) 13:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

If there is a dispute over suitability of a source you can ask about it at WP:RSN. I think you are at the wrong noticeboard. – Brianhe (talk) 13:15, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

That isn't bullying at all. -Roxy the dog™ woof 13:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

@JustTryintobeJust: You are also obliged to notify people when you report them here, which you appear to have failed to do. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

User:Ottomanor

Impersonation , addition of content not supported by sources and warring and persistent unexplained removal of content . This has to stop. Anyone?--Jetstreamer  14:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Troll IP

86.187.167.167, related to this. Eik Corell (talk) 14:57, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

86.187.160.0/21 blocked one week for disruption. Very few good edits from this range for the last month. Katie 16:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Same thing resumes as soon as last incident is archived

The best thing to explain this I suppose is to link here and then here and then here and here . At least as long as there is an incident on this board the user seems to be more polite. Any advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated. YuHuw (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• I hope that's not the best way to explain "this". Please don't send us on fishing expeditions. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, I'm still new here but I should have thought through more and pinged the administrators who are already familiar with the history of this case. User:Wbm1058, User:Dbachmann, User:Tide_rolls, I am also sorry I can not get the Archive link to work better than that. It seems to arrive in the right place initially then suddenly jump three or four cases down for some reason. But the title is correct (Harassment_on_Talk_Pages_and_edit_summaries) Since nothing has changed, shall I copy and paste the whole thing here again? YuHuw (talk) 18:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

No, linking to the prior discussion Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive912 § Harassment on Talk Pages and edit summaries should be sufficient. Sorry, I see that nobody else besides me responded after you listed the diffs that concern you, as requested by Tide rolls. I don't like to see talk of "lining up the ducks on this meatpuppet." I view the term meatpuppet as derogatory and that should be used with care, in keeping with Misplaced Pages's civility policy. - Wbm1058 (talk) 18:45, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• I will respond here to avoid a perception that "no comment equals disregard". I still see no harassment. I do see brusque language and what could be construed as less explanation that could be required for a newcomer. To be honest, the OP exhibits a rather oblique manner in which they communicate. This could be due to a failure on my part; I've been speaking English for over 50 years and still discover that I fall short on occasion. I'm simply not seeing anything actionable here. Tiderolls 20:29, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • I didn't know what I was supposed to see where. Where'd you learn that English of yours, Tide? Drmies (talk) 21:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
    • That'd be L.A. Lower Alabama. Tiderolls 21:08, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

At 23:27, 26 January 2016 Warshy asked YuHuw not to post on his talk page again. Since then, YuHuw has made four edits to Warshy's talk page. In this edit to Warshy's talk page, YuHuw accuses @Vadcat: of being a sockpuppet of Warshy. When Warshy objects to this,at 15:24, 4 February 2016, YuHuw responds at 15:43, 4 February 2016 by posting a complaint at WP:ANI. If admins wonder who Vadcat is - try his contribution history on Russian wikipedia.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, meatpuppet sounds pretty nasty to be honest, at least certainly not civil :( but I suppose I should also just stipulate having revised my knowledge of WP:Meatpuppet that I am not "friends, family members, or communities" with that user. Yet it seems a group of friends from the same community appears to be ganging up on me though (or perhaps even on anyone/everyone who tries to disambiguate/clean up some of those messy articles).

I thought making a user account would be a fun way to engage with intelligent people on such topics, but am starting to think perhaps the socializing might not be as jolly as it seemed it might be. User:Tide rolls you did see that by equating me with that User over and over again they are calling me a pedophile right? YuHuw (talk) 21:08, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I did not see that, no. Tiderolls 21:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It was the very first diff I posted in response to your request at that time. Here I will post that reply again and bold it for you. But it is just a needle in the ever-increasing hay-stack so I won't including today's insults yet because I am tired and need to go to bed now but will add them tomorrow since it looks like the insults will continue all night with some more coming on my talk page now as we type. I will wait till they finish before adding them tomorrow.

Quoted text: "If someone continues to make references to you being a sockpuppet in talk pages and edit summaries again and again even when you ask them again and again to stop that is an harassment designed to prejudice other users against you (which has worked in this case with Warshy). Especially considering the things I discovered were suggested by the same users about the sock in question the references are exceptionally insulting.

Here are the examples: edit summary insult edit summary insult edit summary and talk page insult edit summary insult edit summary and talk page insult edit summary insult talk page insult talk page references to suggest I am that despicable person discussion board insult apparently from Toddy1's IP based upon this dif and the fact (s)he signed later although he also completes User Nepolkanov's work sometimes too talk page insult edit summary insult talk page insult anotther indirect reference to sockpuppetry more talk page insults same again edit summary insult talk page insult & canvassing more of the same more of the same more of the same canvassing refactoring my comments on talk page to confuse order suggesting need for more canvassing finally Warshy is convinced by Toddy1 and joins in the insults more of the same baseless prejudice suggestion that there is some sort of business agenda behind their aggression against those of us who might ask for un-sourced musings to be deleted strange comment in light of the business agenda about this being a nightmare

These Users' edit histories shows they does this type of conduct is his normal way of dealing with random users who challenge her/his edits or post things they do not like. If you want me to provide diffs it will take a long time since they appear to have done it really an awful lot of times but I will make a start collecting diffs if asked, although my objective is not to attack them for their conduct in general just get them to stop doing it to me. Afterall, there may be instances where their suspicions have paid off. Although other times they seem pointless . It certainly seems Toddy1 has been misleading others but Nepolkanov (whose edit history shows only appears to deal with people who are not anti-Polkanov -a Crimean author- which is what Nepolkanov means "Anti-Polkanov") has not exactly been angelic in regards to being beyond hurling the insults -even though I had no idea about Polkanov when this began and don't even agree with Polkanov's ideas now that I know them. It seems Nepolkanov who decided that User:31.154.167.98 was User:Kaz for some reason simply got confused and thinks that is my IP. As a result he continued his insults towards User:31.154.167.98 , firstly against User:Wbm1058 and then became fixated on me after I agreed to take on the role of second author for the article as per his suggestion. For example: first apparent reference to me by use of phrase "your claims" as the despicable user again by use of term "your fake" same again canvassing support, trying to guess meaning of YuHuw while desperately concocting link to the despicable user this is difficult to understand because the URL is fake but it seems more desperation and he is calling me a "thief" in Russian although I may be wrong on this one another reference to the despicable user more canvassing and another ref to that user refactoring my comments another insulting ref to me as that user again declares his suspicion that I am the blocked user more refactoring my talk and more reference to me as the despicable user canvassing and still the same insult while apparently also saying I am so wealthy that I control the internet 0.o directly insulting me again by calling me that user again trying to claim I am not what I say I am

But at least Nepolkanov has engaged in (even if he is aggressive and belligerent editing) some useful discussion on the issues which need to be discussed, unlike user Toddy1 who does not really engage much at all. I don't want anything but to reassure them I am my own person and make sure they don't try such tactics again just because they don't like the challenge. I don't mind fierce debate, I believe thrashing out diametrically opposed views can lead to a clearer picture on foggy issues, but preferably without the insults to intelligence and without the horrendous and potentially damaging references. I didn't create an account to hide my light. I hope I have something that given time will shine here. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 00:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC)"

But the behaviour YuHuw complains of, is behaviour he exhibits himself:

• 15:21, 4 February 2016 accuses Vadcat of being a sockpuppet of Warshy on Warshy's talk page.
• 13:31, 4 February 2016 edit summary accuses Vadcat of being a sockpuppet of Ancientsteppe.
• 21:07, 30 January 2016 edit summary accuses Vadcat of being a sleeper.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

For admin attention :the wrong YuHuw's translation above of nick Nepolkanov as Anti-Polkanov (while actualy means not Polkanov) is erronious argument of blocked User Kaz.This charectirizing Kaz only repeated mistake is additional argument that YuHuw actually is Kaz's clone.Неполканов (talk) 23:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Valencian Country, Basque Country and Catalonia (nationalities of Spain)

I request to block User:Satesclop and his IP address as he keeps edit warring with several users just because he doesn't recognise Spain is a diverse country integrated by different nationalities (nations) and regions. He is trying to mix terms, he refuses to use the green map some users agreed to display (this type of map doesn't mean these territories are independent), and also I don't think he is a good user as he also attacked the Catalan / Valencian cultural domain. — Jɑuмe 16:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Additionally I also request to protect those articles due to constant vandalism — Jɑuмe 17:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• As Spencer told Satesclop at WP:AIV: this is a content dispute. You're both experienced editors; consider dispute resolution. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I added a big Spanish flag for him on the Spanish people article — Jɑuмe 18:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Do be careful that you're not being disruptive to make a point. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Attack pages by User:His Ogreness

I can't see the content of the previously speedied articles Nate Miller (Reptilian Overlord) and Nate Miller (Reptoid) but based on the titles and the content of User:His Ogreness (which I have tagged for speedy as an attack page aimed at Nate Miller) it seems likely that the other articles were also attack pages. Since the user has no other edits the user's name appears to be another attack aimed at Nate Miller. Meters (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

FYI, in some US youth cultures, "dank" is a good thing. No doubt this guy is a troll but I wouldn't class this as an attack. His Ogreness should probably be indeff'd as a troll. John from Idegon (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2016 (UTC)¿

And the user's been indef'ed RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Fair comment. Personally, I would consider being called a reptilian overlord and an ogre an attack. Maybe Nate Miller would feel differently. Meters (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know, Meters. I'd rather be a reptilian overlord than a mammalian peon. Drmies (talk) 21:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

That's from the upcoming 2016 science fiction reboot of Paradise Lost, right? Starring Channing Tatum as Lizard Satan? --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

User:Bishzilla notified. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:28, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Mammalian peon? Please, I prefer to think of myself as a "man thing," scuttling through the underbrush hiding from John Travolta in Battlefield Earth. Meters (talk) 22:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

'Zilla can't read deleted pages either, no longer admin. (Sadness! And frustrated curiosity!) But "Reptilian Overlord" obviously compliment as such. Please all bow down to Overlady Bishzilla. bishzilla _ROARR!! 23:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC).

Uncivil IP user on Talk page

Would be grateful for help in blocking abusive user 2a02:8109:983f:fdf8:857e:42ae:8d8a:ff7e shown in the history of my Talk page. Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 18:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Looks like according to this it's been done: RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:23, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

And I've also range-blocked 2A02:8109:983F:FDF8::/64, as they have shown some IP agility in their recent edits. -- The Anome (talk) 19:26, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

'Wikihounding' by JBL

'Wikihounding' by JBL

I recently read a book by George Watson, Lost Literature of Socialism. George G. Watson, MA, Fellow of the St Johns College at Cambridge since 1961. Watson, “ver a period of more than half a century … published a number of books on literature, literary criticism, and political thought.” Watson’s argument is based on some interesting facts about Adolph Hitler and Friedrich Engels. I verified those facts from independent sources, and then sought to introduce those facts into two Misplaced Pages articles: “Nazism” and “Friedrich Engels”. In each instance, I was immediately reversed by other editors. One DanielRigal reversed my edits in “Nazism”, and one RolandR reversed my edits in the “Engels” article.

My confrontation with DanielRigal subsequently centered on the biased language in the “Nazism” article. I maintain that phrases like “Far-right themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate over other people and purge society of supposed inferior elements” are not presented from a neutral point of view, because 1) it imputes that only ‘far-right’ groups hold such beliefs, and 2) all ‘far-right’ groups hold such beliefs. Those notions are blatantly false, and I provided examples that there is historical evidence that demonstrates how those notions are false. To perpetuate a falsehood is to lie.

After sending me two PMs threatening to have me barred, DanielRigal dropped out of the discussion and was replaced by one TFD. I have substantively dealt with each and every excuse TFD has used to reject any changes to the article, but I maintain that the article, as written, is biased and perpetuates misinformation, which is counter to Misplaced Pages’s policy of being fair and unbiased and presenting material in with neutral point of view. That is the focus of my concern with that article and with DanielRigal and TFD.

I do wish to add that both DanielRigal and TFD followed me to the Engels article and made comments on my proposed changes there. Two of three comments addressed to me by DanielRigal are on my Talk Page. In the first comment, DanielRigal threatened to have be barred for the changes I made to the “Nazism” article, and the second comment addressed edits I made to the “Engels” article – where there is no record of DanielRigal being previously involved in editorial changes to the "Engels" page.

I was surprised to receive that second threat from DanielRigal in regards to the “Engels” article, and I was disconcerted by the knowledge that I had been stalked or informed on by someone in an oppositional clique of editors. Let me be clear that I am not seeking any arbitration against DanielRigal, TFD or RolandR, I just want everyone to be aware of the interactions I’ve been dealing with these past three days.

Regarding the “Engles” article. After RolandR reversed my edits in the “Engels” article, I directly addressed his concerns with a revised edit with the changes he deemed necessary to make the edit worthy and credible. That edit was immediately reversed –out of the blue and without comment – by one User:Joel B. Lewis (JBL) who happens to be an editor that I had confrontational dealings with last year in another article. It was at this point, after JBL reversed my edit in the “Engels” article, that I received the second threat from DanielRigal to have me barred.

Another editor, FreeKnowledgeCreator, started a Talk Page on the “Engels” article entitled “Engels and the Slavs” wherein he requested that JBL explain why he reversed my edit. I joined the conversation and likewise requested justification.

I ask that everyone read JBL’s response and all of the exchanges that follow in that section.

I feel very confident that I provided ample evidence and credible citations to support my edits in both the “Nazism” article and the “Engels” article, and that a certain clique is refusing to allow my edits is doing so for partisan political reasons.

It’s evident from their posts that DanielRigal, TFD, RolandR and JBL are acting in concert and that at least one, and maybe all of them, are guilty of stalking my posts. DanielRigal and TFD comments show that they followed me from the “Nazism” article to the “Engels” article. There’s no indication that either DanielRigal or TFD were active editors of the “Engels” article before I had proposed changes to that article.

RolandR’s comment reveals that he followed me to – or was made aware of – my post to FreeKnowledgeCreator’s talk page and then wrongly accuse me of violating Misplaced Pages policies. However, my real purpose for bringing all of this to the attention of the Arbitration board is to report JBL for engaging in “Wikihounding.”

As reported above, JBL appeared out of the blue and immediately became confrontational in the “Engels” article, and this is notable considering the confrontational exchange we had in regards to another article last year. There’s no indication that JBL had been involved as an active editor of either the “Nazism” article or the “Engels” article before I had proposed changes to both. Yet, miraculously he suddenly appears in both! How he knew or was made aware of my edits to those two articles is worth investigation. Subsequently, JBL has made it abundantly clear that his sole purpose for being in the “Engels” article is to prejudicially frustrate and deny my proposed changes to that article and any subsequent article I should try to edit in the future.

Let me conclude by reporting that JBL’s latest comment was to belligerently challenge me to report him.

So I did. Aspencork (talk) 20:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I have corrected all instances of "JDL" above, as well as adding some links so that other users can figure out who you're talking about. --JBL (talk) 20:15, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

"One link" to your page. Aspencork (talk) 21:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• An example of this editor's work is found at Talk:Planned_Parenthood/Archive_15#PPH_Funding--an almost interminable talk page discussion that followed a severely problematic article edit. Drmies (talk) 20:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I invite everyone involved to actually read the Politifact article and determine for themselves who was 'severely' misrepresenting what the Poltifact article actually reported. Aspencork (talk) 20:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, and does not belong at ANI, but I will briefly reply to your posting. Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Watson was a professor of Victorian literature not an historian of Nazi Germany. His books on politics were not published by academic publishers and while they may have reached a small audience of readers, have not influenced scholarship. As you say, " argument is based on some interesting facts about Adolph Hitler and Friedrich Engels." Therefore we are supposed to treat it as fringe: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." It has so little coverage, it should be ignored.

Your walls of text, failure to listen to other editors, accusations of bias, misrepresentation of sources and continuing to post the same arguments after they have been addressed, as well as arguments based on original research is tendentious and I suggest you either follow established content policies and guidelines, work to get them changed, or find another forum to promote your views.

TFD (talk) 21:15, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

This is not a mere content dispute. I was promptly besieged by an individual who stalked my posts and literally admitted that he was there to block any edits I made. Furthermore, your definition of 'fringe' is too conveniently malleable to your POV to have any legitimate meaning. When you are presented with the fact that some of your sources voice the same opinion as my source, you dismiss both and conveniently ignore both. Aspencork (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

"literally admitted that he was there to block any edits I made" - do you have a diff showing that literal admission? An accusation of "Wikihounding" is the Misplaced Pages equivalent of Godwin's Law. However, of course cartels of editors exist who consider that they own certain articles and hate nothing more than newcomers arriving who upset either their hitherto unchallenged control of content, or their hard-fought-for control of content, or their complacency about errors or omissions in content. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

"You are a crap editor making crap edits. As long as your edits are poorly thought out hackish attempts to push a particular point of view, I will be happy to revert them. If you were to stop making crap edits and instead were to make constructive additions to WP, I (and everyone else) would be considerably less likely to revert you. --JBL (talk) 02:19, 2 February 2016 (UTC)"

Aspencork (talk) 22:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I would just like to observe that the response here shows a typical level of comprehension and responsiveness from Aspencork. Also, the actual diff (rather than a copy of what I posted) is here. --JBL (talk) 22:53, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It is not any edits that you make other editors will revert, only ones that violate policy. BTW you wrote, "Watson's expertise trumps your predisposed, wrongheaded and biased opinion." That is no way to speak to fellow editors. TFD (talk) 23:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Removal of Criticism section on "Existential risk from advanced artificial intelligence" page with a weak excuse

The following administrator: https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Silence who seems affiliated with less wrong / MIRI, and/or FHI (organizations that accept donations and promote Existential risks from advanced artificial intelligence) removed the ENTIRE section of criticisms with this diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Existential_risk_from_advanced_artificial_intelligence&diff=prev&oldid=703313269 What I did was to copy the Criticism section proposed in the talk section and add a few well-known objections, and mention the luddite award that Musk and Hawking recently received. There is a conflict of interest here, as curbing such criticism will help these organizations get funded more easily by the public. These organizations thrive by popularizing AI eschatology "philosophy", a series of bad arguments that masquerade as actual AI research, and have been criticized heavily by many machine learning researchers, however, they are very good at social engineering and they use every method to prevent criticism much like Scientology. Please do not let these vandals prevent criticism on a very controversial subject. They have also been adding references to their own work basically criss-crossing a lot of stuff. I didn't touch the nonsense they wrote, but removing an entire section because I said "creationists usually have a luddite bias" should not be welcome in a scientifically credible encyclopedia. Many AI researchers (including me) believe that their claims are pseudo-scientific. Please do not let them, and disallow them from destroying the section on criticisms. --Exa~enwiki (talk) 20:13, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Couple of points

• You forgot to notify the user you've mentioned above. I've corrected this.
• What is it your actually after. The above statement is a bit incomprehensible.
• I've removed the misplaced ANI tags above.

Amortias (T)(C) 20:24, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute to me. Exa~enwiki, even if the user you're in a dispute with is an administrator, that doesn't matter when they're just editing article content like this; you should discuss it on the talk page with them and follow the steps at WP:DR if you can't come to an understanding with them directly. WP:ANI is more for user conduct issues and people who are repeatedly violating policy, rather than arguments over the content of an article. If they've been adding references to their own work, that might raise WP:COI issues, but see WP:SELFCITE; it's allowed within reason. Even then, you'd have to show that their edits are harmful to the encyclopedia, and you'd probably be better off raising it on WP:COIN if that's the case. --Aquillion (talk) 20:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

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