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Food and drink C‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Food and Drink task list: edit history watch purge To edit this page, select here Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom), Beef, Bread, Curry, Drink, Food, Ham and eggs, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yogurt Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Beer, French cuisine, Sugar Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Apple, Burger King, Fish Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review WP:Trivia and WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, select here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Misplaced Pages requested images of food Consider joining this project's Assessment task force. List any project ideas in this section Note: These lists are transcluded from the project's tasks pages.

How to make a panino

I believe it would be a good idea to add a "How to make" section to the pae, for those who want to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunatic Pandora (talk • contribs)

Might be a good idea. WikiBooks has a cookbook module where it may fit better. We would then have a link to the cookbook here. --Midnightcomm 03:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

How to make a panini? That's the equivalent of asking how to make a sandwich. Panini are generally not overstuffed and usually contain just 2-3 fresh ingredients and a flavored mayo, aioli or salsa. But, that's a traditional Italian definition that becomes less relevant in North America where anything between two pieces of bread can be called a panini.

Typically in North America, panini refers to the process of pressing a sandwich under a weight on a hot griddle, or using a George Foreman-type grill or a panini press to cook the sandwich. But, you can also eat cold panini. There is no "recipe" for panini, just as there isn't one for a sandwich. While most in the US would associate a ciabattina (small individual ciabatta "slipper" bread) as "panini bread", in practice, any bread can be used (although it's unlikely you'll see rye or pumpernickel in Italy, in the display cases of panini shops you will see white, wheat, baguettes, small kaiser-type rolls, knotted rolls and foccacia among and other breads used for panini).

As to the point on the main page that the Panera Bread chain has popularized panini in the United States, what they have done is popularize among suburbanites the idea of calling grilled sandwiches "panini". This is not dissimilar to what Starbucks did with the word "macchiato".

Regarding the cookbook link, probably the best print guide in English for panini making is Simple Italian Sandwiches by Jennifer and Jason Denton who own 'ino, a very traditional enoteca in New York City that serves various panini, tramezzini and bruschetta.--Paniniguy 02:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. What do Starbucks give you when you ask for a macchiato? —Ian Spackman 15:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking with some non italian people, I discovered that they intended with the term "macchiato" a drink which is different from what italians expect; it is referred to as an espresso with one/two teaspoons of milk, whereas they intended it as milk with some drops of coffee. Maybe this is what Starbacks offers. --Cantalamessa 15:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this is getting a bit too off topic, but here's a brief explanation: A Macchiato is a very simple espresso drink consisting of simply espresso coffee with a dallop of steamed milk froth on top. When you order a macchiato at Starbucks, what you essentially get is a latte with froth on top, with a bunch of sugar and flavors added. It is not atypical for American restaurant chains to put their own spin on "ethnic" foods. When I was in Italy, I saw many cafes serving "American" foods that I, as an American, barely recognized. It is the nature of the beast. For all intents and purposes, a Panini in America is an Italian-style sandwich. Enough said. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.104.60.172 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

macchiato in this context means "contaminated". In Italy there are latte macchiato(milk with a squirt of coffee) and café macchiato(coffee with a squirt of milk). Outside Italy "Macchiato" is whatever the customers choose it to be. The same goes for the "Panini", outside Italy it is whatever the locals understand it to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.154.106 (talk) 08:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Pronounciation

I think the IPA should be different for the first syllable: pa-ni-no sounds like pu(nk)-nee(dle)-no(vel). --Cantalamessa 10:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such word as 'pronounciation'. The word is 'pronunciation'.

86.139.152.219 (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

We need a proper picture of a panini sandwich!

We need a proper picture of a panini sandwich!

Well, I'm italian and I would definitely order the item in the picture as "Uno sfilatino, per piacere!". But it falls in the panini family, without any doubt. An italian sandwich is made with softer bread, whereas the ciabatta is different from the panino: it has a thinner crust, slightly overcooked brownish, and lot of big air bubbles in the breadcrumb. The real "panino" bread is the one offered with porchetta: yellow crust, white breadcrumb, small/normal air bubbles inside. --Cantalamessa 12:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't the Italian-language wikipedia, and that is not a "panini" to English speakers. The simple fact that we call an individual sandwhich a panini instead of a panino should clue you in to the fact that we're not talking about the same thing. This whole article is inappropriately pandering to foodies and people with a cultural agenda, ignoring the obvious fact that a panini is known as a pressed grilled sandwich to most people. That's not a sidenote, and the difference in definition is not trivial. If you're going to pointlessly favor the Italian definition over the more common one, you should at least point out that a different definition exists instead of glossing over it. If somebody really only knew about paninis through this article and brought up the information in public they'd get funny looks. 24.188.137.55 (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Is it a singular or a plural?

I am a bit unhappy about the low-level edit war which has been going on around this question. I am sure that we can all agree that in Italian the singular is Panino and the plural is Panini. But I am not at all happy about describing the English language usage of Panini as a singular noun as ‘incorrect‘. Panini is singular in the English language, just as Spaghetti is singular (or uncountable). If I tell someone that ‘the spaghetti are ready’ I am either teasing them—hey you should learn Italian!—or forgetful. It’s not something you say in English. Basically this kind of Puritan (or Catholic) prescriptivism died out out with the first edition of the OED, And if you want to go into an English sandwich bar and ask for a toasted sandwich, you had better ask for ‘a panini’. Thoughts? —Ian Spackman 15:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. No edit war, please. Let's discuss and find a common agreement. Dictionary.com reports "panino" as first form, but also "panini" is preferred. I think this word has inherited the same usage of "zucchini", which is used as singular, though it is undoubtedly plural in italian. --Cantalamessa 20:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Shoot me down in flames if you think this is silly, but doesn't "panino" correspond to the so-called "open sandwich" (or "open-faced") and "panini" to either the standard two-slice sandwich or the multi-slice sandwich (double- and triple-deckers and above)?

I agree that sometimes editors can get pedantic over word forms, but I have to say that nothing makes me grind my teeth more than hearing a television journalist talk about either "a bacteria" or "these bacterias". "Alot" is another trigger. So my vote is cast with the panino/panini purists :) AncientBrit 15:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The singular form 'Panini' is correct in the English language because that is the word which english speakers use exclusively except when engaged in erudite point scoring. 'Panino' is surely a Hypercorrection. I suggest the page should be renamed 'Panini' and should follow the example of the article on graffiti. Petecarney 21:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; this may be true in some parts, but not everywhere. I also don't think this is a hypercorrection, since that would imply incorrectly applying a foreign language rule to a loan word from that language. In this case, the application of the rule is correct. Mindmatrix 16:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course its wrong, it is not the same as spaghetti at all. If you consider the word Panini as a singular to be correct, then you must also consider the plural "Paninis" to be correct also! It is truly absurd. Graffiti is used as a singular and plural, spaghetti is only used as a plural, Panini is not- we have invented a plural form Paninis of a plural word used in the singular. Moreover we have given it a meaning quite different from the original. In the uk, a Panini is a sandwich made of a particularly unpleasant kind of bread, that is toasted- an untoasted sandwich with a crustier role is called a Baguette! In Italy, the word Panino means any kind of sandwich, from sliced bread with a piece of cheese in all the way to the filled bread rolls. Well i suppose at least there, no Panino resembles an English Panini! LOLHotspury (talk) 13:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of zucchini. It's far to late to fix that one, but there's still hope for the panino. Tangerine Cossack (talk) 07:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

How ridiculous; I (sadly) know so many people that spell "you" as "u" and even more that don't know how to choose between "to" and "too", or all the other common mistakes. Just because a mistake is frequently used doesn't make it become valid, it is not an accepted replacement. nice too no that sum of u choose rules 4 ur convenience 90.208.0.94 (talk) 18:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Kudnt agree wit u mor 205.251.185.202 (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a dumb debate. Regardless of the degree of its incorrect usage in English, it is still, in fact, incorrect to describe a single sandwich as a "panini". Are we going to change "corned beef" to "corn beef" because an increasing number of morons are using that erroneous terminology? This is an encyclopaedia ... as such, it should be CORRECT. All one does by pandering to the idiots is to bring the rest of the world down to their level. Shouldn't Misplaced Pages's goal be to help eradicate ignorance, rather than validate it? 205.251.185.202 (talk) 14:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess we should start filling Misplaced Pages with misplaced apostrophes and incorrect pluralizations because they too are in common usage. Let's not forget to misuse "their", "there" and "they're" as well as "too", "two" and "to", "insure" and "ensure" and a host of other errors now in "common" usage. The ignorant have won! Long live incorrectness!205.251.185.202 (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

In Italian a panino is basically just a bread roll and panini are several of them. What either of these words mean to the English-speaking world is up to the English-speaking world. There are plenty of words from foreign languages that have a differing or even different meanings in the English language, e.g. gusto in Italian means taste. It is the same the other way around. The English film is used in Italian as singular or as plural, distinguished only if accompanied by an adjective or a numeral. For a really creative use of language you might have a look at Switzerland. It's german-speaking population uses a lot of French words, often with matching meanings, but declines them as if they were german words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.154.106 (talk) 09:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to the encyclopedia that anyone can edit! There is no question whatsoever that panini used in the singular is wrong, but we have once again decided to perpetuate incorrectness by consensus: Argumentum_ad_populum. Eric 14:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees with you. panini is quite clearly a correct singular usage, and arguing against it is like saying "a zucchini" is wrong. Kupiakos (talk) 06:50, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I live in Holland, where the same problem has arisen (so it isn't just English- and French-speaking countries, as the article implies). No-one here (except people who have just started Italian lessons!) refers to a "panino" in the singular, and Dutch serving staff look blank (or actually "correct" you) if you ask for one. People also say "panini's" in the plural, even though (as in English, but not in French with its "les spaghettis sont...") they don't make a false plural of "spaghetti", "tagliatelle" and so on - these are treated as a non-countable mass, like milk or sugar (so the earlier comment about "spaghetti" now being used as a plural doesn't hold water - we say "I think this spaghetti is ready", not "I think these spaghetti are ready", so if anything it's used as a singular, with no plural form). But panini(s) are countable, so a plural is needed. I occasionally tell Dutch people that asking for "een panini" ("a panini") sounds as silly as asking for a "een broodjes" (the plural of "broodje" = "bread roll'). That briefly stops them in their tracks, especially in a country whose people pride themselves (admittedly with decreasing justification) on "knowing their languages", and where foreigners who speak broken Dutch (and no English) are the subject of much ridicule. Dutch-speakers wouldn't want to be caught saying something that sounds like "een broodjes", even in another language! But I still don't expect them to start saying "een panino" (any more than English-speakers are likely to stop using the mangled French expression "double entendre"). The things are quite simply known as "panini's" (the apostrophe is correct in Dutch), singular "panini". I do think Misplaced Pages, being an encyclopaedia, should draw attention to the error (and add a Dutch version of the article, which is currently missing - if I were a native Dutch-speaker I'd give it a try), just as the Dutch Misplaced Pages points out Dutch-speakers' misuse of "high tea" to mean what is called "afternoon tea" in English ("there is a widespread misconception, particularly in Holland and Germany, that 'high tea' is a posh afternoon ritual"). But I also feel it should record actual usage, rather than try - surely in vain - to make people change their linguistic habits. Are we to insist that English-speakers stop saying and writing "the macaroni is ready, so let's eat it", just because it's called "maccheroni" and used with a plural pronoun and verb in Italian? See also the English and Italian Misplaced Pages articles on macaroni/maccheroni. Perhaps it's just that "panini(s)" are a relatively new concept in English and Dutch. In another ten years' time I reckon "a/een panino" and "two/twee panini" may sound and look as weird as "the maccheroni are ready, so let's eat them" does now - if they don't already. Take "salami", which is plural in Italian - but surely no-one would now write the "correct" singular form "salame" in English. And to me the clincher is that an English or Dutch "panini" isn't even the same thing as an Italian "panino", which means a bread roll in general. For what it's worth, I say all this as a professional translator.188.203.49.105 (talk) 16:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I would argue there's no reason to keep "panino" everywhere in this article, and instead to change most uses to "panini". "A panini" is proper form in English. For evidence, one can visit The Oxford English Dictionary and Google Ngrams. It is clear that, in English, "panino" is quite uncommon, and "panini" is preferred. From the OED: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." The consensus is clear. Panini is correct for the singular form without a doubt, and, depending on the usage, panini or paninis may be used for the plural form. Kupiakos (talk) 06:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

This issue has recently resurfaced with bold edits by Py0alb. I am not arguing one way or the other, but trying to maintain the status quo in the absence of a consensus in the above discussion. I have started an RfC below to establish consensus. Ibadibam (talk) 21:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Please refer to the (now closed) discussion below, in which a consensus is reached that the English singular usage is panini, not panino (hence the naming of the page). I don't know who deviated from the consensus and when and I'm not particularly interested in investigating, the important thing is that the page now reflects the consensus view Py0alb (talk) 08:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

That discussion established no such consensus. Specifically, it resulted in the current page title, but there was no consensus about usage, as almost all responses involved personal opinions and anecdotes. There was no data presented by either side (other than one regarding Google hits for 'panino' and 'panini', which is not usable as a deciding factor on its own). That is not how consensus is established. Mindmatrix 15:26, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

No Original Research?

My understanding is that Misplaced Pages does not allow original research. It appears, however, that the decision to move this article to "Panini (sandwich)" was made largely on the basis of original research ("my local restaurant," "in my experience," and on the other hand, "in the Toronto area," etc.) as well as personal opinion.

I believe that most English-language dictionaries these days reject prescriptivism and make their decisions on the basis of empirical research into how English-speakers actually use words. So what do the dictionaries -- the most reputable source -- say about this issue? So far, I see dictionary.com saying "panini" is the "usual" usage, while m-w.com goes with "panino."

The Oxford English Dictionary (typically an authoritative source in English debates) lists it as "panini" in the official entry, with panino, pannini, and pannino as other forms. It says: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." Google NGrams (actually showing usage in books) shows the clear winner of "panini". Why this is even a debate is the real question. Kupiakos (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 Done - consensus below for a move to Panini (sandwich). Neıl ☎ 15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move to Panini (sandwich)

I requested the article be moved because the word "Panino" is not part of the English language whereas "Panini" is a perfectly good loanword from Italian. Please contribute your opinion. Petecarney 11:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose. Panino is indeed used in the english language; at least, it is quite commonly used in the Toronto area (as is panini), especially in those areas heavily populated by Italians. In fact, panini and panino are used interchangeably, and both qualify as loan words into English (despite my spell-checker's refusal to recognise either term). Moreover, the article clearly illustrates the distinction between the terms, the etymology and current english usage. (I was going to suggest that if the article is to be moved, it should be to Panini, since there's no need to append the qualifying sandwich, but apparently that article title is already occupied by an Indian grammarian.) Mindmatrix 16:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
• Slightly facetious weak oppose, purely because that would further the concept that "paninis" is an acceptable pluralisation ;-) DWaterson 14:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Locobot (talk) 02:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support If you go into just about anyplace in the U.S. that sells panini and ask for a "Panino", chances are you will get a strange look and some request for clarification as to what you mean. older ≠ wiser 16:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support per Bkonrad (immediately above); my local restaurant sells panini. Our article names are optimized for general readers, not for specialists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
  • And they have inspired a competitor to sell paninis, as I just noticed. We should make clear that this is a soleicism; but we cannot expect our readers to know it beforehand. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
• In my experience, panini is used almost universally for the singular item, and paninis for the plural. I would fully expect panini to pass any test of relative usage over panino. Despite the grammar clash in the source language, the usage is now ingrained. Knepflerle (talk) 19:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support - panini is a more used term, even if it is incorrect in Italian. Misplaced Pages cannot define the correct use of a loanword. EJF (talk) 21:41, 1 February

2008 (UTC)

• Support for the reasons best said by Bkonrad above. JPG-GR (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support. We ask for "a panini" where I come from. Even if that is not correct Italian, it is the overwhelming English use (in my experience). Feel free to explain where it is derived from in the article itself. Mcmullen writes (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

I took a quick look at Goggle without checking for what came back. Panino had 1,070,000 hits and panini had 8,070,000 hits. That is a significant difference. I know that this is not always the best way to judge usage, but the difference is large in this case. Vegaswikian 06:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 07:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This line should be removed

I believe this statement should be removed: "In the United States, panini are typically "gussied up grilled cheese"; they are nearly always grilled or toasted and invariably contain cheese." The source isn't credible, it's just 1 person's opinion. Likewise, the statement "invariably contain cheese" is both factually incorrect AND unprovable.

I already deleted that little section, but I reverted the edit because it broke the link to the (admittedly weak) source article. I haven't made many edits to[REDACTED] so I'm not sure how to edit out that line but keep the source. As an aside, the picture on the source shows a panini without cheese, in direct contradiction of the statement that should be removed.

So, cut one, cut both, either is fine with me. Can someone that's more proficient than little ol' me make this change? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.119.20 (talk) 17:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

RfC: panini or panino?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Society, sports, and culture Misplaced Pages style and naming When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Within the article body, should the topic of this article be referred to as panino or panini? Please refer to prior discussion at #Is it a singular or a plural? for relevant arguments. Please note that this is not a request for comment on the article title, which was established above (#Proposed move to Panini (sandwich)). Ibadibam (talk) 21:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Survey and discussion

• Panini. Panino is essentially unused in english. The english word, borrowed from the Italian, is panini to which the plural is paninis. It's worth mentioning the etymology from panino but the common usage, in the UK at least, is panini. The article should prefer that form. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPACKlick (talk • contribs) 08:02, April 29, 2016
• Panini. Lets not be disingenuous here: a consensus view that the page be named panini in preference to panino IS a consensus view that the topic of the article be referred to as panini in preference to panino. I think you're splitting hairs unnecessarily. As the above poster said, panino doesn't exist in standard English usage. There is really no reason to discuss this all over again when a clear consensus has already been agreed. Py0alb (talk) 08:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
  • You would think so, since the article title is so often the form used within the article body, but this is not universal across all Misplaced Pages articles, nor is it even mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Article titles or Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closing instructions. The title of an article is usually the most recognizable form, but not necessarily the preferred term in running text (cf. Cat Stevens, where different names are used, corresponding to the phase of his career). In this article, there was a change to the first sentence only immediately following the move. As the article was expanded over the following few months, panino was used in the article body. The usage of panino has now been stable in this article for eight years, and contributors to the earlier discussions have argued that this form is indeed used in English. Ibadibam (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
• Panini per previous comments. fredgandt 13:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
• Panino – Google Ngrams data up to 2008 show a clear preference for "a panino" over "a panini" in British English, and in American English until 2001. Data for "panino" vs "paninis" also show a preference for panino in British and American English, albeit not as clearly (I admit this is an imperfect comparison, since it compares two extremes and excludes uses of panini as an irregular plural/singular). Google Trends data for the same comparison is inconclusive for British English, and shows a preference for panini emerging in the US in the late 2000s. (Note that I am excluding a comparison between panino and panini alone because this does not distinguish between uses of panini in the singular and plural.)
  With respect to dictionaries, we have Oxford in support of panini for both British and US. Merriam-Webster, Random House and American Heritage prefer panino, somewhat in contradiction to Google's data. Are there any others worth looking at?
  In any case, it would appear that panino is more common than has been anecdotally claimed above. Given the data, I'd say that switching to panini in the singular is a bit recentist, and is also a borderline case of MOS:RETAIN. Another point is that using panini may lead to a greater frequency of disruptive edits by grammar mavens correcting what they perceive as a grammatically incorrect form. All that said, I think we should continue to monitor usage in sources, as the balance may tip more clearly in favor of panini in several years. Ibadibam (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Google ngrams shows a clear and unarguable preference for paninis and "a panini" over "a panino" both historically and currently: See here: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=a+panini%2Ca+panino%2Cpaninis&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Ca%20panini%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Ba%20Panini%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Ba%20panini%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ca%20panino%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpaninis%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPaninis%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bpaninis%3B%2Cc0

Panini compared to panino isn't even a fair comparison. The word panino barely registers at all: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=panini%2Cpanino&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cpanini%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPanini%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bpanini%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPANINI%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cpanino%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bpanino%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPanino%3B%2Cc0

This really is a non-discussion. Every single piece of evidence, every single Misplaced Pages policy, is in favour of correctly reporting and using panini as the standard singular form Py0alb (talk) 09:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

In the ngram searches I linked above, I tried to filter out unrelated cases by setting narrower search terms. The ngram searches you've done here are more likely to include unintended results. By performing case-insensitive searches, you're including uses of the word as a proper noun (consider the many cases, in diverse fields, listed at Panini (disambiguation), compared to the the narrower, relatively obscure cases at Panino (inhabited locality)). Note that the historical preference you've highlighted in your first search is only for the capitalized case, "a Panini". And your second search combines uppercase and lowercase, without any context that might help restrict results only to the relevant, food-related cases. Ibadibam (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

That's simply untrue - I included the comparison for "a panini" and "a panino", and the capitalised version is clearly counted separately. "a panini" is significantly more common in English usage than "a panino" both currently and historically. I suggest you look again at the links. Py0alb (talk) 08:31, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps the chart is displaying differently for you than for me, but in the first I see a case-insensitive search for a panini,a panino,paninis, with one line for each term, and in the second I see a case-insensitive search for panini,panino, again with one line for each term. "Case-insensitive" would mean that all capitalization options are combined into a single result. If you remove "paninis" from the first search, "a panini" and "a Panini" become separate, and you can see that the historical preference for -i is for the proper name, and the common, lowercase name, presumably referring to the sandwich, is a more novel phrase. Ibadibam (talk) 22:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

We've already achieved consensus, this is for Panini. Currently this discussion is a one man crusade against a previous consensus and so far an otherwise unanimous vote against. I'm going to leave this until tomorrow, and unless something significant happens, I'm going to ask you to revert your edits and politely withdraw from this discussion. I don't want to have to take this to ANI and hand out warnings, but if that's what has to happen, that's what will happen. Py0alb (talk) 21:36, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I think it oversimplifies it to stretch a consensus on the page name to apply to a broader usage question. If there were consensus for that, the article would have been using panini for the last eight years, which it hasn't (though you might ask Deipnosophista why they kept it as panino back in 2008). I also entreat you to let the RfC process work, and not make threats about running to the administrators after one day of discussion simply because I'm arguing a contrary position. Ibadibam (talk) 22:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

You're arguing a position contrary to every single other poster and contrary to the previously established consensus. This is entirely your right, but you need to accept that you don't have the right to ignore consensus when editing Misplaced Pages: you have already ignored the consensus in your edits and this in itself is a serious offence, whether you like it or not. Please don't edit war over this, I'm sure you will agree its not worth you being permanently banned over. Please stay calm and accept the consensus view Py0alb (talk) 22:12, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

In response to my name being taken in vain by Ibadibam: it's hard to recall now what was going on in 2008, but, as best I can, I think that we were at that stage still trying to influence general usage in favour of "panino" (because that is the Italian singular, and there still seemed a chance of it winning the day). My view has, however, since changed. I now think that "panini" has for better or worse become the generally used English singular and the battle is lost. As with "agenda" and a number of other non-English-form plurals we need to give way now and accept the inevitable. I know that "spaghetto" appears in Wiktionary; but it is just too late... Deipnosophista (talk) 07:47, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Apologies, Deipnosophista, I meant no offense by mentioning you, and was only hoping for a little background. Thanks very much for taking the time to chime in and recollect an eight-year-old discussion and edits. Ibadibam (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Py0alb: regarding your comment "ask you to revert your edits and politely withdraw from this discussion" - this is simply uncalled for. The only occasions for which we will redact comments is if it is trolling, harassment, threatening, or meat/sock-puppetry. An editor simply stating his or her opinion and providing justification for that opinion is not grounds for such action. Further, escalating to ANI would be fruitless, as there's no grounds for action. The fact that you're asking the editor to self-revert (instead of doing so yourself) is inconsequential; the end result is the same, you're telling an editor they are not welcome on a discussion page. This is unacceptable; please engage in discussion about the topic, not about the individuals involved in the discussion. Mindmatrix 16:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Editing in clear contradiction of an established consensus view is a breach of protocol and an administrative matter. It doesn't matter how long the anti-consensus viewpoint had been missed, the point is, once the consensus viewpoint was re-instated (by myself in this instance), any subsequent reversion of that was editing against established consensus and subject to disciplinary action. I have tried to explain this as clearly and politely as possible. Misplaced Pages protocol states that the page should continue to use "a panini" as this was the established consensus, until a new consensus is arrived at that overturns that conclusion. Py0alb (talk) 08:31, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

You ignored the central theme of my comment: asking others to withdraw from a discussion is not acceptable. Mindmatrix 15:19, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

We don't need a discussion on this, it says loud and clear above. "Done - consensus below for a move to Panini (sandwich). Neıl ☎ 15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)". The consensus included both the naming of the page and a decision about the usage of the term in English. To establish a consensus on the correct linguistic terminology that applies to the title of the page automatically applies to the content. No new evidence has been brought forward that contradicts that consensus. Further discussion of this topic is pointless obfuscation, unnecessarily prolonging this absurd argument is bordering on disruptive editing Py0alb (talk) 16:35, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:Consensus can and does change. We are having a discussion on a question last examined eight years ago, and this RfC should run its course. Attempting to dissuade other editors from contributing is disruptive. Please desist. --Pete (talk) 17:39, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely. Consensus changes when convincing new evidence is brought to the table. Bring forward some new evidence, and the consensus will change. Until then, protocol states we stick with established consensus. Py0alb (talk) 21:51, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I presented several new points in my !vote comment above, backed by a variety of sources, which you have yet to address directly, except to present a other evidence, which I've reviewed above. So I think it's a bit unfair that you'd say there's no new evidence. Ibadibam (talk) 22:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The WP:CONSENSUS policy page mentions nothing about "convincing new evidence". It is entirely up to the editors participating in discussion, and good factual arguments hold more water than just making stuff up. I suggest you read the page. Cheers.. --Pete (talk) 04:40, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

My previous comment consisted of one sentence, and your reply completely avoided what I wrote. Mindmatrix 21:32, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

In case you missed my post in an earlier thread (regarding the closed page move discussion), I'll repost it in this one: "That discussion established no such consensus. Specifically, it resulted in the current page title, but there was no consensus about usage, as almost all responses involved personal opinions and anecdotes. There was no data presented by either side (other than one regarding Google hits for 'panino' and 'panini', which is not usable as a deciding factor on its own). That is not how consensus is established." The absurdity is persistently stating there was a previous consensus when no such consensus was ever achieved or noted. Mindmatrix 21:37, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I didn't miss your posts, in fact I already replied to it. You don't agree with the consensus that was reached. That is unfortunate, but that doesn't change the fact that consensus as to the preferred usage of Panini over panino WAS reached and officially verified by an administrator. Perhaps if you have a time machine, you can go back and try to argue your case. But to deny that a consensus exists simply because you don't personally agree with the decision is inadmissible. I don't know whether you are some kind of "higher level" administrator that can automatically over-rule the established decisions of other administrators? Perhaps you could clarify this? Py0alb (talk) 21:58, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

in fact I already replied to it: No you didn't. My comment of 6 May 2016 in this thread is the last comment of the thread. That is the comment I reposted. Mindmatrix 23:38, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I've already stated that consensus is not established when neither side presents data to support their argument. The page move discussion consisted entirely of opinions and anecdotes, nothing more. Also, please quit the passive-aggressive commentary. Mindmatrix 23:38, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I would also urge you to not make assumptions about other editors positions on a subject. Although I did state a position in the page move discussion years ago, I did not state one in this discussion. For the record: In English, 'panino' and 'panini' are both used in the singular, and 'panini', 'paninis', and rarely 'paninos' are used for the plural. The use of these terms varies by region, and the etymology section should reflect that. Article-wide, the term 'panini' probably should be used as the singular term, but as I've said, nobody has made a compelling argument for either position so far. Regarding your comments "You don't agree with the consensus that was reached" and "to deny that a consensus exists simply because you don't personally agree with the decision is inadmissible" - this is incorrect, as I've stated several times now that no consensus was reached, hence there is no position with which to agree or disagree. Mindmatrix 00:10, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Clearly, we need to be consistent in our language usage. It would be absurd to have the title of the page as "panini", and then refer to the subject as a "panino" throughout the rest of the text. We have an etymology section that discusses the various usages of the word, the important point here is to decide the primary usage for the majority of the text. Obviously, that should reflect the most common usage in the English speaking world. I don't think anyone here (correct me if I am wrong) is actually claiming that panino is more commonly used than panini. Even Ibadibam admits this to be the case. Its not up to[REDACTED] to educate people on what some editors think should be the correct form. Its up to[REDACTED] to reflect current usage. All evidence - both the experience of every editor that has commented so far, the google ngrams and the google trends data, shows that "a panini" is by far the most common usage. That is what was concluded in the previous discussion, nothing has changed in the intervening time, and there is really no need to discuss this any further. Py0alb (talk) 09:42, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Clearly, we need to be consistent in our language usage. Our Cattle article, for example, has a plural title, yet refers to "cow" throughout. Why should this article deviate from the established norm? Seriously, Py0alb, if you continue to push for this discussion to be shut down, you are likewise pushing for sanctions to applied to you in order to allow discussion to continue freely and amicably, as per policy. --Pete (talk) 20:01, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Everyone agrees that "cattle" is the correct plural and "cow" is the correct singular. That is not the case here. As far as I can see, although some people have expressed opinions that they not like the fact, everyone here agrees that "panini" is the standard common usage for the singular tense, and "paninis" for the plural. No-one is trying to shut down the debate, but unless anyone wishes to dispute that fact, we appear to have reached some kind of consensus. Py0alb (talk) 08:20, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

…everyone here agrees that "panini" is the standard common usage for the singular tense, and "paninis" for the plural. On examination of the responses given here, we find that this is not the case. I, for one, do not agree with your statement, whis is therefore demonstrably false. --Pete (talk) 08:56, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

You honestly, and in entirely good faith, think that more people go into a sandwich shop in UK/US/Australia etc and ask for a " cheese and ham panino" than a "cheese and ham panini"? You must live on a different planet to me Py0alb (talk) 09:15, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Clearly we have different perceptions. Personal attacks do not negate the falsity of your statement above. You claimed something, I demonstrated that it was untrue, and now you refuse to admit your error. Your falsehood is somehow my fault. I'm sorry, but this does not work for me. I now see you as attempting to insert untruths into Misplaced Pages and rejecting all alternate voices. That is not how we do things here. --Pete (talk) 20:09, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I have to admit that I have literally no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps you could attempt to rephrase, this time stripping out the personal attacks and irrelevant commentary. Try to stick to the topic in hand, that is whether or not you genuinely and in good faith think "a cheese panini" or "a cheese panino" are the more commonly used expression in the Anglosphere. Py0alb (talk) 21:09, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

You said, …everyone here agrees that "panini" is the standard common usage for the singular tense, and "paninis" for the plural. I disagreed, therefore your statement is untrue, because everyone does not agree. You seem to be unable (or unwilling) to accept this. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 21:42, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Can you answer the question please? Py0alb (talk) 22:32, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree that, in my experience, panini is the more common singular. But given the data, I concluded that my personal experience may not be representative of actual usage. So I'm more inclined to follow reliable sources, especially dictionaries, most of which have yet to adopt this shift in usage. Ibadibam (talk) 18:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Your experience matches the experience of every other editor here (I have no idea what Skyring thinks, he seems to be arguing a prescriptivist argument claiming its "just wrong" with no real argument or evidence to back this up). It is extremely unlikely that all these editors, and all the editors who contributed to the previous discussion, would ALL be wrong. I've lived in 8 different cities in the US and the UK and I've never heard anyone order "a panino". Don't put too much faith in dictionaries, which are often hopelessly out of date and reflect "official" rather than common usage, or in google statistics which may be misleading - ordering a panini from a shop and googling the word or writing about it in a book are two very different things and may not be particularly well correlated. Recentist arguments are irrelevant here, as paninis are inherently a recent phenomenon in the English speaking world. No-one in the really UK ate paninis in the 1990s, so they wouldn't have used the word.

Regardless, both my and other editors' interpretation is that both real world experience and the data are completely conclusive that panini is by far and away the most common singular usage in the Anglosphere.

worth reading: http://gothamist.com/2014/09/08/panini_think_piece.php

http://www.tasteandflavours.com/2012/09/panini-origin-and-varieties.html

""'Panini' is the Americanized version of the Italian word panino, which means little sandwich and refers to a class of sandwiches that became popular in the United States in the late 1990s." Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith editor 2004, Volume 2 (p. 235)

Py0alb (talk) 08:36, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

• Panino – Panini as a singular is just wrong. Being sloppy in our usage because a few editors Just Don't Like It is very poor practice. --Pete (talk) 22:24, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
• Panino, per it being not ignorant WP:NONSENSE, and per the N-gram data backing up actual usage in English books. The fact that a few small-town baristas and deli owners (the same people who'll write "Apple's 2 for a $") get this wrong is meaningless. Cosmopolitan people used to more than pub/bar food know it's "a panino", just like they know the sch in "bruschetta" is pronounced sk not sh, and that there is no x in "espresso". (This awareness may be more diffuse and weak in places with low Italian immigration, e.g. Ireland, where I also saw taco written as *tacco and pronounced /tak-ko/ instead of /tah-ko/. But notably, our article is at Taco not "Tacco".) PS: It would potentially be acceptable to have this page at Panini, but only if this were treated as a plural, and the lead sentence gave the singular correctly as panino. I'm just skeptical that the conditions are met for a WP:PLURAL exception. People generally have one panino, not multiple panini, unless they are unusually hungry, so the topic is not intrinsically plural.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  05:32, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is no place for pursuing an agenda of snobbery or prescriptive linguistics, the common usage in English is panini and that is what this encyclopaedia should reflect. If you want to promote the usage of "panino", write a blog post. Don't misuse Misplaced Pages to promote your personal preferences.

As Kupiakos commented above: " The Oxford English Dictionary (typically an authoritative source in English debates) lists it as "panini" in the official entry, with panino, pannini, and pannino as other forms. It says: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." Google NGrams (actually showing usage in books) shows the clear winner of "panini". Why this is even a debate is the real question. "

Google trends shows that this isn't even remotely close, panini is the preferred usage by a factor in the 100s: see here: https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore#q=a%20panino%2C%20a%20panini&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 or here: https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore#q=cheese%20panino%2C%20cheese%20panini&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 here for UK: https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore#q=panino%2C%20panini&geo=GB&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1 here for US: https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore#q=panino%2C%20panini&geo=US&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1

Why are we having this absurd discussion? Py0alb (talk) 08:25, 5 May 2016 (UTC) Py0alb (talk) 08:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I completely agree that we should be descriptive rather than prescriptive, and at first I expected this RfC to be little more than an open-and-shut formality. My own experience is similar to yours, that panini is the more common singular. But that's anecdotal evidence, and in examining the data, I realized that usage is not as clear-cut as we'd thought. The Google Trends data you've linked here are a bit selective. I note the following with each set:

• Looking at Trends data for Italy is interesting, but doesn't inform this discussion, as we're trying to understand English usage, not Italian.
• "cheese panin" is a good case to consider, but has the same problem of "panini" alone (as in your third and fourth links): it conflates uses of the word panini as both singular and plural, thus inflating the frequency for that form. Our aim is to determine usage only for the singular. Some of the searches I linked to in my !vote above use search terms that attempt to address this problem, however imperfectly.

In the absence of a good, contextual search term to provide an accurate comparison, it may be wisest to defer to the professionals, who tend to be appropriately descriptivist. My survey of dictionaries indicated that most are still using panino as headword and preferred form. What if we said that, once a majority of major dictionaries acknowledge panini as the preferred singular, we follow suit? After all, we're supposed to be following sources, not establishing our own usage. Ibadibam (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Again, the comparison of "a panini" with "a panino" is both relevant as it distinguishes the single from the plural and fundamentally conclusive as to the outcome of this discussion. You say "in the absence of a good, contextual search term", but I have provided multiple contextual search terms that have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt which is the more common usage in English. You need to look again at the links, because your "concerns" as to the conclusive nature of these results are entirely unjustified Py0alb (talk) 08:31, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

• Panini per common usage. In addition to my own experience as an English speaker, I notice that Google News (more up-to-date than Google Ngrams, which seems to stop in 2008) has twenty times as many results for a panini as for a panino. (It looks like eight times as many at first, but when I clicked through to the last page of results, the adjusted estimates were 7910/369.) Prescriptivist arguments that panini is "just wrong" are not relevant for a neutral encyclopedia. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

• Panini. Per COMMONNAME. Yes, it's "incorrect", but so are a whole lot of other anglicized words. WP isn't here to fix such things, but follow them. --A D Monroe III (talk) 14:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

• Panini I also checked Bing.com and there was a vastly higher use of Panini. It's more helpful under this name. (20:53, 12 May) Further checking and the name was established as being Panini, so the current text goes against the earlier established consensus. Travelmite (talk) 21:30, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Summary

Latest Situation: We currently have 4 votes for panini on the grounds of it being the most common usage, 2 votes for panino on the grounds of prescriptivism, and 1 vote from the nominator who is unsure about common usage. We should move to close this discussion soon as it is starting to go round in circles Py0alb (talk) 06:59, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm unsure about common usage, but I'm quite sure that in the absence of a clearly established pattern of common usage we should follow a majority of reliable sources, which for this case I consider to be dictionaries. So far we've only found one source—Oxford—that prefers "panini". So I'm standing by my argument in favor of "panino" on those grounds. (I'll also point out that there are no votes in Misplaced Pages discussions, so there's no need to tally the number of editors arguing one way or the other.) Ibadibam (talk) 20:54, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't entirely buy that argument, but if so, lets do it rigorously. Rather than browsing the internet and cherry picking dictionaries that support one particular viewpoint, I suggest we restrict ourselves to the 8 online dictionaries listed as being "online English dictionaries whose definitions are based upon well-established content": https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_online_dictionaries

so lets look through these 8 in an unbiased manner and see what the majority opinion is.

Collins http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/panino defines panino as "another name for panini". It lists panini as the singular and paninis as the plural. 1-0 to panini.

dictionary.com lists both panino (panini plural) http://www.dictionary.com/browse/panino?s=t and panini (paninis plural) http://www.dictionary.com/browse/panino?s=t on an equal footing. no preference.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/panino lists panino, but not panini. score 1-1

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/panini?q=panino doesn't find panino, and redirects you to panini instead. 2-1 to panini.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spellcheck/english/?q=panino doesn't think that panino exists in English, and suggests you might have meant panini or paninis. 3-1 to paninis.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/spellcheck/?q=panini http://www.ldoceonline.com/spellcheck/?q=panino can't find either. No score.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/spellcheck/british/?q=panini http://www.macmillandictionary.com/spellcheck/british/?q=panino can't find either. No score.

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/panini#panini__12 type in "panino" and it redirects you to "panini". final score: 4-1 to panini.

So in summary, the majority of editors think "panini" is the standard usage, the majority of online dictionaries think "panini" is the standard usage, the majority of online sources think "panini" is the standard usage, and the majority of stats resources point to "panini" as the standard usage. This is totally and unequivocally conclusive, we have reached a consensus, and unless you have any further objections, I will be closing this discussion as such. Py0alb (talk) 08:11, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

That's not how RfCs work. I suggest you go read up on the procedure at WP:RfC. You might feel there is consensus, but nobody else does. So there isn't. Just hold your horses and let the thing go. The feedback request service is still inviting people to comment and will do for another three weeks yet. --Pete (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Did you miss this? 3.The RfC participants can agree to end it at any time. If you read the post directly above yours, you will see that I'm asking Ibadibam is he is willing for the discussion to be closed, seeing as he and I are the only two currently active participants. Presumably, he will either find the evidence I presented above sufficiently convincing, in which case a consensus has been reached, or he won't, in which case he will provide evidence to the contrary Py0alb (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

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