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Korea This page is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the documentation.KoreaWikipedia:WikiProject KoreaTemplate:WikiProject KoreaKorea-related Manual of Style This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Previous Naming conventions discussions

please see Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (Korean) for previous exciting discussions. Appleby 01:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Conflict with WP:UE

As there's currently a conflict of this guildeine with Misplaced Pages:naming conventions (use English), I have requested to add an exception clause there at its talk page. Please raise your opinion and suggestions. — Instantnood 20:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Question about the title of this book

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/archives/tomjerryanime3.jpg = What is the title of this book? I want to add the title to the Tom and Jerry and Minky Momo articles - I also would like the Korean characters for the title and the transcribing of them in RR and MR. EDIT: klutzy revealed an English-language title: "Magical Princess Minky & Tom & Jerry" WhisperToMe 06:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Here you go... Hangul = 요술공주 밍키 / 톰과 제리; Hangul with Hanja = 妖術公主 밍키 / 톰과 제리; RR: Yosul Gongju Mingki / Tom gwa Jeri; MR: Yosul Kongju Mingk'i / T'om kwa Cheri -- Calcwatch 07:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! :) WhisperToMe 16:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hangul and Hanja

In the two bulleted examples, there are two parentheses. Are they supposed to be there? Hangfromthefloor 22:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. I don't think so. Wikipeditor 03:09, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

A quick check of the shows that Hanja is extensively used for identifying proper names. It is also frequently used in newspapers for disambiguation. "South Koreans rarely use it, even for place names or personal names." should be changed to "South Koreans use it extensively in written communication when initially identifying place names and personal names."

"For Hangul, the basic rule of thumb is that there are spaces between words that are each 2 or more syllables in length, while there is no space between 2 one-character words or between a one-character word and a 2-or-more-character word. (The rules are of course actually much more complicated than this and depend upon the grammatical categories of the words in question, but this rule of thumb generally holds for nouns, which constitute most of the words in article titles." This is inaccurate and confusing. Syllables and characters are not the same thing. Is the author addressing Chinese (Hanja) characters or individual letters in Hangul? This paragraph should be deleted.

"While Hangul and mixed script (Hangul and Hanja together) use spaces between words, text written only in Hanja is usually written without spaces. Thus, gosok doro ("freeway" or "motorway") is written as 고속 도로 (with a space) in Hangul, but as 高速道路 (without a space) in Hanja." This is also incorrect. Hanja is only used to clarify the meaning behind the specific syllable being used because the phonetic Hangul alphabet can create confusion; a given spelling may have multiple meanings--think read and read in English, as in, "I will read the book," and "I have read the book." It is always possible to spell anything in Korean using solely Hangul. Only words with a Chinese origin have Hanja equivalents and gosok doro is not 'spelled' with a space in Hangul anymore than it is when the Hanja characters are substituted for the Hangul syllables. It could be "go sok do ro", or "gosokdoro", or "go sokdo ro" for all the difference it makes. However, "gosok doro" provides a non-Korean speaker a guide to the approximate cadence of the term in English. Therefore, the rule of thumb--for article titles--should be to place a space in between four or more romanized syllables or as necessary to facilitate the pronunciation in English. Christopher North (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Three Reasons to Include Hanja for Person's Names and Place Names

• 1. To assist in disambiguation of names
• 2. To assist persons who may be more familiar with Chinese or Japanese to follow the names in an article
• 3. To facilitate scholarship

Doc Rock 13:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sort keys for categories

There does not appear to be a guideline for how to set sort keys when categorizing South Korean sub-categories within general categories. The two options are:

• Use "South Korea" as with Category:Military of South Korea within Category:Military by country.
• Use "Korea, South" as with Category:Religion in South Korea within Category:Religion in Asia.

I prefer the second option in that I usually think of "Korea" first when searching for a South Korean subcategory while "South" is an afterthought. It also has the side effect of having general Korean, South Korean, and North Korean subcategories close together in the category list. On the other hand, it may confuse readers if searching by "South Korea" is more common.

Standardizing the sort key order is probably a good idea so that people aren't not confused when South Korean categories appear in either "K" or "S" apparently at random (same goes for North Korean categories). What does everyone think the standard sort order should be? YooChung 01:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I prefer "Korea, South" (and of course "Korea, North"), for the reasons you have given. -- Visviva 10:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

comments copied from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Korea

I favor Korea, South or better yet, Korea, Republic(the most accurate). North Korea would be Korea, Democratic People's Republic, or Korea, North. I think those two are more suitable for readers because when there is a alphabetical list of countries, readers can just search for Korea and choose from either ROK or DPRK which are right next to eachother. Cydevil 13:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I love both of the alternatives. (Wikimachine 13:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC))

Why not Republic of Korea (ROK), I like that alternative the best. Good friend100 04:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Category sort keys do not appear as text and are only used for sorting pages and subcategories within categories. It determines which letter it appears under (the first letter of the sort key) and determines the order in the list. So there's no difference between using "Korea, South" and "Korea, North" and using "Korea, Republic of" and "Korea, Democratic People's Republic" (unless another Korea appears), and the former is shorter. I don't like "Republic of Korea", since it would take me a while to think to search under R, and even longer to think of searching under D for North Korea. This might just be me, however. YooChung 05:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

More people seem to prefer to have "Korea" come first in the sort key, so I will write out that "Korea, South" and "Korea, North" should be the standard category sort key in the manual, unless anyone raises a serious objection. I will specify "South" instead of "Republic of" because 1) sort keys are not visible, so there's no difference, 2) everything else uses "South Korea" and "North Korea", so a change should be a matter of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Korean) rather than the manual style, and 3) "Korea, North" and "Korea, South" are a lot faster to type than "Korea, Democratic People's Republic of" and "Korea, Republic of" (and I keep on omitting the "of"s and forgetting what the D stands for ...). YooChung 06:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I wrote a categorization section for the style manual. YooChung 10:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Dates & Calendars

I'm working on some articles related to the Imjin War and have encountered a confusing mess where calendar and date usage is concerned. Rarely is the calendar being used noted (Japanese lunar, Julian or Gregorian). It would be very helpful to non-specialist editors (like me) to have some consensus guidelines on what system to use (and during what periods), how to present the preferred calendar and note the corresponding date in another system (where sources may often employ the latter), and some notion of how to convert from one to the other. Thanks, Askari Mark (Talk) 01:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this needs to be addressed. I would suggest using solar (Gregorian) dates throughout, with lunar dates and regnal years in parentheses or footnotes if appropriate. Also, the MoS should point out that *if* lunar dates are mentioned, they should absolutely never use solar month names -- i.e., that the 10th lunar month is simply the "tenth lunar month," not "October." Although perhaps there is a more appropriate MoS subpage on which to address that particular issue. -- Visviva 07:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Why does Misplaced Pages have to follow Revised Romanization of Korean?

Why does Misplaced Pages have to follow Revised Romanization of Korean? RRoK is not that well-known romanization. McCune-Reischauer is the most well-known Korean romanization system. Thus we should use M-R Romanization system instead of RRoK. --­ (talk) 22:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Bold and italic Hangul characters

Should bold or italic type be used for Hangul characters? --88.78.227.239 (talk) 18:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Move proposal

See Talk:Ume#Requested move. Badagnani (talk) 04:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Mountains sharing a name

I am currently expanding the List of mountains in Korea page and would like advice on how to treat mountains sharing a name. Many Korean mountains in different parts of the country use the same name. It seems to me that if XXsan is in both Gyeonggi-do and Gangwon-do then we should be titling these articles (or future articles) XXsan, Gyeonggi-do and XXsan, Gangwon-do. That is, we should use a comma to separate the mountain's name and the province's name. Some articles indicate the province with brackets instead, like this: XXsan (Gyeonggi-do). Is there an accepted standard? If not, can we make one? Waygugin (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found the answer even if I don't like it. Waygugin (talk) 10:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

MoS naming style

There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Kong Soo Do Bu and Kwon Bop Bu or "Boo"

It is my understanding that the "Bu" often placed at the end of Kwon Bop Bu or Kong Soo Do Bu (sometimes spelled "boo") is simply the/a Korean term for "club." So Kong Su Do Bu just means "Kong Soo Do Club" or "Karate-do club." I think some people mistakenly think that Kwon Bop Bu is the name of a martial art. Kwon Bop is the martial art (I believe it to be roughly the Korean equivalent of "Kung Fu" or "Chuan Fa," the latter meaning "Fist Method." so Kwon Bop Bu just means "Kung Fu Club" - Though true Korean speakers (i.e., true Koreans) may correct me about the exact translation of "Kwon Bop," I believe I am correct about the "Bu" part. In the Jidokwan article, we learn that the Jidokwan was originally named the Choson Yun Mu Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu, or the Choson Yun Mu Kwon Kwon Bop Bu, or sometimes the Choson Yun Mu Kwan Kong Soo Do, Kwon Bop Bu. The Choson Yun Moo Kwan was a Yudo (Korean Judo) school in Seoul. "Choson" is a term for Korea, taken from the Choson or Joeson Dynasty. I believe that in North Korea (aka Democratic People's Republic of Korea or DPRK), the country is still referred to as "Choson." I do not know if this is the case in South Korea (aka Republic of Korea). In any case, the "Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu" is the name of a Karate-do club started it up in a Judo school. "Korea Yun Moo Kwan (Judo School) Karate-do Club." Bear in mind I'm just an American practitioner who has done a little reading, but I CAN read. Naturally, I would be much obliged if anyone (who really knows) would be kind enough to correct me where I am mistaken. My intent is simply to clear up confusion about the use of the term "Bu"/"Boo" and the tendency to confuse it with part of the name of a martial art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katotheother (talk • contribs) 13:58, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Lang template

Per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Other languages, this part of the MoS should advise editors to wrap non-English text in {{Lang}}. How should we word that, in this case? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Korean baseball players in US

• Should WP:MOSKO make any statement about handling surname order? For example surname 차승백 or 백차승 ? okay it's obvious to anyone familiar with baseball, but what about in cases where it isn't? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:52, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Romanization of North Korean names

We have had a discussion about this at Talk:Kim Jong-un. It was pointed out that the official romanization in North Korea is "Kim Jong Un". It was also pointed out that the convention was arrived at in an arbitrary way without a full discussion. To me, the convention is odd: "Use McCune–Reischauer (not the DPRK's official variant) for topics about North Korea." Why? I could understand using RR for everything for the sake of consistency, but this? The Naming Convention for given names says: "If there is no personal preference, and no established English spelling, hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized." It was argued that official romanization does not equate to personal preference. This seems odd, especially in the case of Kim Il Sung. Can we really believe in all the time that he was leader of North Korea, he preferred a different spelling of his name? The other issue is what is the common English spelling. Surely the English-language publications of North Korea must constitute a significant amount of sources for the spelling of North Korean names. Other sources use a variety of spellings. Checking books that I have to hand, Don Oberdorfer and Bruce Cumings use "Kim Il Sung". Sheila Miyoshi Jager uses "Kim Il Sung" and "Kim Jong Il", but "Kim Chong-un" (in Brothers at War). Helen-Louise Hunter uses "Kim Il-song" (in KIS's North Korea). Barbara Demick uses "Kim Il-sung". Looking online, there is similar variety. But Time, NYT, the Economist, CNN, and Bloomberg all seem to use "Kim Il Sung". Then consider, for example, "Kim Il Sung University". Surely, as an institution it has declared its own preference for romanization.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Agree Where there is no clear personal preference, the Manual of Style must reflect “dominant practice in the North (Kim Jong Il) and South (Kim Dae-jung)”. The time has come for a two-style solution. Where there is no information on personal preference, readers must be entitled to access articles that reflect reality. To shoehorn all Korean Romanization according to the preferences of only South Korea, not only mocks Misplaced Pages’s policy of providing a neutral point of view, but is also obfuscatory and disrespectful. Let’s change this. —LLarson (said & done) 15:35, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

 Disagree The current practice is sound and is founded upon two simple principles: use RR for South Korean names and MR for North Korean names (reflecting a consensus that reaches far beyond Misplaced Pages), and keep the typographic elements (hyphenation, capitalization) consistent among these two.

Both South and North Korean names are further subject to two exceptions: personal preference (which, I maintain, is not the same as everyone agreeing with strict observance of their country's official variant, let alone inferring this from the person's high status within the country; we can establish that Kim Il-sung preferred that name over his other guerilla names and his birth name Kim Sŏng-ju, but any particular combination of hyphenation and capitalization is not there), and spellings that go against the rules but are overwhelmingly preferred in reliable sources (eg. "Kim Jong-il", not "Kim Chong-il") are used.

The whole point of transliteration is to provide consistent outcomes and I regard that our current policy balances consistency across many divides: North and South names are consistent between each other (in terms of typography) and each are consistent between uses in their respective contexts: North names are more recognizable in MR renditions and South names in RR. This also pertains to the argument about neutrality: transliteration is about using Latin alphabet in lieu of the original. The aim is precisely not to faithfully reproduce the name; it's to produce consistent outcomes for our purposes. As is known, the original Korean doesn't even use hyphens or capitalization ("김정일" and "김대중" for the two statemen Kims). We don't omit them out of respect; we add them to introduce clarity to the fact that these are three-syllable family name given name combinations. (@Sawol: pinging an expert on the topic) – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:42, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is arguing against consistent transliteration, but who else follows this particular convention ( the "consensus that reaches far beyond Misplaced Pages")?--Jack Upland (talk) 04:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

MR is "the Romanization method preferred by academics", and "remains the standard for scholarly work in English", indeed "American specialists in Korean Studies continue to use a modified version of the McCune-Reischauer". Virtually all academic sources on North Korea written in English begin with a note on romanization, and they tend to pursue an all-out MR, or a MR for NK and RR for SK result. The notable example are sources that originate from South Korea (usually as translations from Korean) that prefer RR exclusively. I never said that others follow our convention on hyphenation and capitalization (they don't, at least consistently). – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

And NK itself uses a version of MR. This doesn't explain why Misplaced Pages uses its own particular version of MR. It would be far simpler if we used the NK version. It's notable that we use NK spelling for Juche and Rodong.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:45, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The only "particularity" of our MR is the practice of hyphenation and capitalization. I've explained above why I think we are using, and should keep using, MR this way. Both Juche and Rodong are spelled that way because of WP:COMMONNAME and how it's implemented here Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles#Romanization: "There are cases in which the romanization differs from the common name used in English sources. As this is the English-speaking Misplaced Pages, use the name most common in English sources." Exceptions like this are okay, but we don't use them because NK does, we use them because the majority of reliable sources do. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Gelézeau, Valérie; De Ceuster, Koen; Delissen, Alain, eds. (2013). "A note on transliteration". De‑Bordering Korea: Tangible and Intangible Legacies of the Sunshine Policy. Routledge Advances in Korean Studies. Routledge. p. 17. ISBN 978-1-136-19253-1. LCCN 2012032430.
2. Elizabeth Raum (1 February 2013). North Korea. Raintree. pp. 2–. ISBN 978-1-4062-3556-2.
3. Stephan Haggard; Marcus Noland (13 August 2013). Famine in North Korea: Markets, Aid, and Reform. Columbia University Press. pp. 22–. ISBN 978-0-231-51152-0.
4. Sang-Hun Choe; Christopher Torchia (1 September 2007). Looking for a Mr. Kim in Seoul: A Guide to Korean Expressions. Master Communications, Inc. pp. 7–. ISBN 978-1-932457-03-2.

RfC: Which romanization system should be used for pre-division Korean topics?

Should the wording

In general, use the Revised Romanization system for articles with topics about South Korea and topics about Korea before the division. Use McCune–Reischauer (not the DPRK's official variant) for topics about North Korea.

be replaced with

In general, use the Revised Romanization system for articles with topics about South Korea. Use McCune–Reischauer (not the DPRK's official variant) for topics about North Korea and topics about Korea before the division.

?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

With only 52 edits to the talk page and 76 edits to the main guideline page over ten years, I didn't anticipate this getting much traction as a simple thread without an RFC. With no prior discussion, my rationale for the proposal is necessary. However, naturally, my rationale is an expression of my own opinion and is not neutral, so it is collapsed below.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

According to the discussion that began at the Kim Jong Un page in December, the guideline was arrived at in an arbitrary way. See the follow-on discussion about North Korean names above. I think it would be a good idea to broaden this RfC to cover romanisation in general if possible. On this particular topic, I agree MR makes more sense, as that is what the sources use.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:59, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

@Jack Upland: MOS:KOREA doesn't apply to Kim Jong-un (if it did the title would be either Kim Chŏngŭn or Kim Chongun without diacritics). For him, his father and grandfather -- and quite possibly no one else in the entire history of the Korean peninsula, frankly -- WP:COMMONNAME trumps this guideline.

I should also specify that I would not be opposed to an MOS:CHINA-style ruling where diacritics are not allowed in article titles but should appear at least once in the article. (Although if I tried to say that since the majority of English-language reliable sources on pre-Republic China still favour Wade-Giles we should do so too, I would probably be eaten alive.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:15, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

@Hijiri 88: In North Korea Kim Jong-Un is actually Kim Jong Un, Kim Il-sung is Kim Il Sung. I'm not sure how the "common name" is arrived at.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:38, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

@Jack Upland: Do you mean you aren't sure how the "English names" used on Misplaced Pages were established, or how I came to the conclusion that COMMONNAME applies to the three dictators of North Korea and no one else? If the former, I have no earthly idea, but I would guess they were hyphenated so their "first name" would be obvious as a single word. If the latter, then it's simple: they are the only three Korean people, north or south, whom virtually everyone in the English-speaking world has heard of. Everyone else is only known to fans of Korean movies, pop music and TV dramas (a very small sub-culture in English-speaking countries), scholars of Korean history (an even small sub-culture) and taekwondo practitioners (probably the largest of the three groups, but still a tiny minority). When only a tiny minority of English Misplaced Pages's target audience have heard of someone or some thing, COMMONNAME does not apply, and we revert to our style guidelines like the one presently under discussion. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:43, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

There are exactly two authoritative instances about romanization of Korean. So what ? Pldx1 (talk) 19:24, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

@Pldx1: Umm ... what? Could you be more clear about what you mean? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:08, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

For some reasons from the past, there are two authoritative instances about romanization of Korean. One of them are the state & academia authorities form North Korea. One of them are the state & academia authorities form South Korea. End of the list. One can regret that both instances aren't speaking from an unique voice and enforce a Korean romanization of Korean, as China has enforced a Chinese romanization of Chinese. But it seems strange to try to construct another authority. That is what I mean. When searching and sorting, a paramount requirement is the uniqueness of the search key. Having a twofold key is already a burden, that reflects the burden of the separation of the families. We don't need another one. Pldx1 (talk) 07:46, 4 May 2016 (UTC).

You don't seem to have read my proposal, as your response appears to indicate (I think?) that you believe I am trying to create a singular standar for romanization of Korean on English Misplaced Pages, and that this somehow has something to do with post-1945 North Korea and South Korea. This simply is not the case: my proposal would only affect topics from before 1945, like what I have recently been writing in Chinese influence on Korean culture. All the sources I have been consulting are in English (because I do not speak Korean, and there's no point citing Japanese sources on a non-Japanese topic) and all of them use McCune-Reischauer exclusively, with at least one explicitly stating that McCune-Reischauer is the near-universal standard employed in western academic literature.

My proposal is simply to take the arbitrary requirement that pre-1945 topics should use Revised Romanization, and make it a (less arbitrary) requirement pre-1945 topics should use McCune-Reischauer. This has nothing whatsoever to do with North and South Korea -- my motivation is to make it easier for people like me to write articles using the same romanization system used in the sources we cite.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:08, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Dear User:Hijiri88. We, the readers and writers, are not living before 1945, but after 2015. And therefore, many sources about pre-1945 events have been written largely after 1945. I trust you that, probably, each of the older sources were saying that their romanization was the best in the world for their time, and surely better than the romanization used by other academics. And the result is here, pitiful to the point that Korean authorities had to step in and make some order. Standardization is required, and no one proposes to use the Shakespeare's spelling for writing the old British history. Pldx1 (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

@Pldx1: Please try to understand this. Misplaced Pages deals with historical material from before 1945. In fact, Misplaced Pages deals with material going back as far as the Big Bang, so 1945 is relatively recent. I am not talking about using old, pre-1945 sources. I am talking about using up-to-date, top-quality academic sources to write about the history of Korea before 1945. We need a standard for how to romanize Korean proper names and cultural terms from before 1945, and using modern "South Korean" or "North Korean" romanization systems because these modern political entities have close ties to these romanization systems is anachronistic and silly. We should be using up-to-date, top-quality academic sources to write about the history of Korea before 1945. If you can provide some evidence that such sources use "Revised Romanization", then please do so; I have already cited a reputable, scholarly, recent (2010) text that explicitly calls McCune-Reischauer the "standard convention for transcription into English", so the burden is now on you if you actually oppose my proposal.

Of course, I still think it's highly possible this is just a misunderstanding and you actually don't oppose my proposal. Please clarify this.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:26, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

This reminders me of how, in the old ancient times, the litterati strongly opposed the usage of 한굴. You are ashamed of all these fans of Korean movies, pop music and TV dramas, taekwondo practitioners and even kids from Korea that refuse to recognize how better the world was when all these diacritics were trying to mimic the complexity of the ideograms. Yes, all these people are writing Jeongjo, Hwaseong and even Jeong Yak-yong. Because they have an US keyboard in front of them. And they want something simple to write 정조, 화성 and 정약용. The very idea to rewrite each an any article here because some old-minded people dislike the Korean regulations is surprising. Pldx1 (talk) 17:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

So you are opposed to following the standards laid out in high-quality academic sources because you feel it is elitist like the aristocratic literati in pre-modern Japan and Korea who insisted on writing everything in Chinese? That logic doesn't really hold up, as McCune-Resichauer is easier for English-speakers to read than Revised Romanization (the use of es in Revised clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with English phonology). Plus, it is rather Americocentric of you to assume we all have "an US keyboard in front of" us. Also, calling me "old-minded" because I want to write words the way I read them in English-language sources rather than doing a whole load of mental gymnastics to make up spellings of these words to match arbitrary South Korean government regulations really doesn't make any sense. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:23, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support in principle, but it needs better data. The rationale is plausible, but its N-gram backing is faulty, since it includes everything since 1800. Nom has since done this: Constrain it to, say, 1990 onward so we can see what modern usage actually is. No one did anything consistently with Asian-language material in English back in the Victorian era to mid-late 20th century. I support the general gist of this if there's better backing for it, and we need to revisit the same kind of issue with Chinese. It's completely ridiculous that we have articles at Laozi, Gaozi, Mozi, Xunzi, and Wang Fuzhi, instead of the spellings most English-language philosophy works use for these philosophers. At least Tao Te Ching has not been moved to "Daodejing".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  05:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Wait, I already addressed your concern by making the N-grams only cover 1990-2008 and adding a whole bunch more to indicate that the results weren't cherry-picked. Literally every word I checked was more common in MR than RR. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:35, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Noted. I revised accordingly.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  10:44, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, don't get me started on MOS:CHINA. Most sources on Chinese topics at least acknowledge the existence of pinyin and recent ones that prefer WG tend to give some apology for this, rather than simply saying "we use the standard way of writing Chinese words in English". There are also a lot more users of en.wiki capable of making and motivated to make a coherent (if wrong) argument against using WG; I suspect most of the en.wiki users who strongly believe we should be using Revised Romanization on all Korean history articles are South Korean nationalist SPAs, to whom we don't have to pay much attention.

Your point on the N-grams is noted. I'll fix it. I actually don't use N-grams often, and didn't know how to generate them. I remember that on an RM for the Emperor Jimmu article two years ago User:Curly Turkey cited N-grams, and I basically just copied what I found there and switched out the search terms.

But if you look at the graphs, you'll notice that at no point in history have the lines intersected -- MR has been more common than Revised every single year.

And even though I cited N-gram data, I don't actually put much stock in it or in GBooks search results, as most GBooks hits are probably garbage anyway. I think the scholarly literature that directly states that scholarly literature tends to use MR is a much better reason for updating the guideline.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Has it been two years since that Jinmmnmnnmnmnmu RfC? Maybe it's time to stir that pot again. NGrams are great, but like all statistics, you have to be careful how they're used. It's unfortunately not obvious how to use it, but easy to use once you've figured it out. It's too bad it doesn't do books from after 2008—it's been stuck at that cutoff for years. I have nothing intelligent to say on the actual subject of this RfC. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:04, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Another cause for concern is that, even though English-language sources tend overwhelmingly to favour McCune-Reischauer, apparently no effort has been made on the part of WikiProject Korea and its contributors to create redirects. This is extremely for both our readers and editors. Mandating the moving of all of these articles to their better-attested English names would have the positive side-effect of forcing our editors to solve this problem. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:26, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree it's quite extremely. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:15, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I was worried I would get blocked for battleground behaviour and personal attacks if I accused WikiProject Korea of making things "extremely inconvenient" for our readers. So I censored myself, and it wound up like the North American televised English version of the Pokemon anime where the censorship introduced plot-holes later on. :P Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:35, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't blame WP:KOREA for anything; just like most projects - it is a discussion board for the few (<10) individuals who are more or less active in Korean topics. Its members hadn't addressed it because a) they were too busy doing other stuff b) it slipped their minds. Keep in mind that Misplaced Pages is less popular in Korea then in many other countries, and this translates to relatively lack of development/activity/interest in Korean topics on en Misplaced Pages. Bottom line, there are just too few editors active in this area to pay attention to this. Now, hopefully, we will fix it, but please, let's not blame anyone except 99.9999% of world population who is wasting time on Facebook/etc. rather then giving a damn about Misplaced Pages gnome's work that needs to be done. Anyway. Creating those redirects is very important. Perhaps part of this task could be automated, see an interesting template at Talk:Mudeungsan. Further discussion on that should probably take place at WT:KOREA as it is uncontroversial and not that related to what we discuss here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:04, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Technically, if my proposal passes then the only redirects that will need to be made are from the less common spellings to new articles, as almost all the current articles would need to be moved, and redirects from the current titles would be created automatically. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:27, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

• Weak support. I am not very familiar with the details of spelling Korean, other then I realize there are numerous way to do so. Given no other argument has been presented, I tentatively support Hijiri's one. While statistics are imperfect, he has presented the only ones here, so until someone presents opposite ones, his argument seems to win. If there are new counter arguments, please ping me so I can revise my vote. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:10, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
• snow. Two people at MOS aren't a consensus to modify a huge quantity of articles. The NK and SK romanizations are the de facto standards. And the very idea of romanizing 세종 differently in different articles, according to the time centering of each article seems weird (having NK and SK is already weird, better reunite the families). Pldx1 (talk) 08:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

We do not use the NK romanisation.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

This is an RFC, to which a lot more than two people have shown up, and so far everyone except Pldx1 is in agreement with the proposed change -- I don't think Pldx1 has read and/or understood WP:SNOW. Furthermore, the "we should use the official South Korean romanization for all Korea-related topics because South Korea is better than North Korea" argument is a non-starter (and something of a strawman), because everyone here is arguing for use of the romanization system used in English-language reliable sources, not the "officially sanctioned" one of one of the two non-Anglophone modern states in which Korean is the primary language. I am sure many member of WP:KOREA have a deep personal connection to the ROK, but if WP:KOREA members (many of whom have fairly poor English skills and have written a large number of very messy articles) prefer one style over another for non-policy reasons, that is a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. The broader consensus on English Misplaced Pages has always been that we should follow the majority of English-language reliable sources. Pldx's other argument (that we shouldn't romanize the same word differently depending on the time period under discussion) is also nonsense, because this would not be the case under the proposed wording any more than under the present wording: specifically South Korean topics (including, presumably, the majority of place names in the southern half of the peninsula) would remain the same, as would specifically North Korean topics; everything else would be spelled according to English-language reliable sources. 세종 would not be affected as, according to our article on the subject his name is spelled the same way in both MR and RR; these gross inconsistencies and bizarre non-arguments in Pldx1's above post make me wonder whether this person should be editing Misplaced Pages at all, much less dictating how the rest of us should edit. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:35, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

This RfC has been closed

As stated by User:Legobot at 04:01, 2 June 2016, this RfC was closed as "Removing expired RFC template". Pldx1 (talk) 09:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• NA-Class Korea-related pages
• NA-importance Korea-related pages
• WikiProject Korea articles