Revision as of 06:15, 18 October 2016 editOneshotofwhiskey (talk | contribs)282 editsm →Page Protection← Previous edit | Revision as of 06:15, 18 October 2016 edit undoOneshotofwhiskey (talk | contribs)282 editsm →Page ProtectionNext edit → | ||
Line 172: | Line 172: | ||
{{Ping|Oshwah}} Now that the page has been protected, I would suggest reverting back to the last stable version prior to the edit war initiated by ], namely the article Since that date, Oneshotofwhiskey mass deleted over 2,000 bytes of previously accepted material from reliable sources like ] seven times (, , , , , , ) claiming (needless to say, that is not a proper application of the policy), and noting Oneshotofwhiskey also added over-the-top, BLP-violating POV language to the lead——despite the ongoing RfC (which has yet to attract any outside comments) and his own The material Oneshotofwhiskey mass deleted has been in the article without controversy since and no-one has endorsed his deletion. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that per ], the ] is on him to obtain consensus for deleting this long-standing material; the fact that he was a more aggressive edit warrior than myself certainly isn't a sound reason to retain his version as the default while the page is locked from editing.] (]) 05:30, 18 October 2016 (UTC) | {{Ping|Oshwah}} Now that the page has been protected, I would suggest reverting back to the last stable version prior to the edit war initiated by ], namely the article Since that date, Oneshotofwhiskey mass deleted over 2,000 bytes of previously accepted material from reliable sources like ] seven times (, , , , , , ) claiming (needless to say, that is not a proper application of the policy), and noting Oneshotofwhiskey also added over-the-top, BLP-violating POV language to the lead——despite the ongoing RfC (which has yet to attract any outside comments) and his own The material Oneshotofwhiskey mass deleted has been in the article without controversy since and no-one has endorsed his deletion. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that per ], the ] is on him to obtain consensus for deleting this long-standing material; the fact that he was a more aggressive edit warrior than myself certainly isn't a sound reason to retain his version as the default while the page is locked from editing.] (]) 05:30, 18 October 2016 (UTC) | ||
:Of course I disagree with ]'s request to revert the page back to the version he most prefers since that is what started this content war to begin with!lol..Doh! Thank you again for a fair decision, Oshwan. | :Of course I disagree with ]'s request to revert the page back to the version he most prefers since that is what started this content war to begin with!lol..Doh! Thank you again for a fair decision, Oshwan. | ||
:I take this as authoritative by the admins, moving forward: ''"You two are to discuss the issues on the article's talk page and in a civil manner. Failure to do so, or engaging in further edits without consensus will result in discretionary sanctions."'' Clearly that would negate reverting the page for any reason at this point since consensus and discussions on the talk page should influence changes on the page. It would appear that the week long block is clearly was meant as a cooling off period for the page itself, so we can use that time to work out our difference. | |||
:Again, in the spirit of Oshwan's decision, it sounds like user ] and I are supposed to work things out here and do so without name calling or muckraking. I think that is a great idea! And again, if it needs to be said, it obviously wouldn't be fair to revert this page back to the version that ] prefers since that is tantamount to me having to ask him for permission for any change I would like (since he's defending the page as is before others came along to make changes to it). Since other editors are involved us than just he and I, I would like us to work on the consensus for what should or should not stay in the page out of respect for them as well. For my part, I had already conceded and removed many of my contributions on the page anyhow. Maybe user ] overlooked that. The page as it exists for the moment seems to be a good starting ground for all editors involved. I take it that we are to start with a clean slate moving forward, which is why I am not requesting any version of the page I prefer. We should just leave it alone since this kind of debate is wasting time IMHO that could be spent on consensus building and dispute resolution. Again I think it is best to focus on the consensus instead and leave the page alone until a civil dialogue that respects all the editors involved is created. I will start a section now in that vein since user ] is choosing to spend his time trying to essentially appeal the decision with this request. I invite him and others to join me in that debate. | :Again, in the spirit of Oshwan's decision, it sounds like user ] and I are supposed to work things out here and do so without name calling or muckraking. I think that is a great idea! And again, if it needs to be said, it obviously wouldn't be fair to revert this page back to the version that ] prefers since that is tantamount to me having to ask him for permission for any change I would like (since he's defending the page as is before others came along to make changes to it). Since other editors are involved us than just he and I, I would like us to work on the consensus for what should or should not stay in the page out of respect for them as well. For my part, I had already conceded and removed many of my contributions on the page anyhow. Maybe user ] overlooked that. The page as it exists for the moment seems to be a good starting ground for all editors involved. I take it that we are to start with a clean slate moving forward, which is why I am not requesting any version of the page I prefer. We should just leave it alone since this kind of debate is wasting time IMHO that could be spent on consensus building and dispute resolution. Again I think it is best to focus on the consensus instead and leave the page alone until a civil dialogue that respects all the editors involved is created. I will start a section now in that vein since user ] is choosing to spend his time trying to essentially appeal the decision with this request. I invite him and others to join me in that debate. |
Revision as of 06:15, 18 October 2016
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dinesh D'Souza article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 12 months |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Dinesh D'Souza. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Dinesh D'Souza at the Reference desk. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Removal of "Convicted Felon" mention
It seems inappropriate and biased to not mention in the first sentence that the subject of this article is indeed a convicted felon, as much, if not most, of his notability comes from the fact that he is a convicted felon. Many people are only aware of the subject of this article because of his status as a convicted felon and not because of any other activites he has taken part in. It seems that those who have removed the mention that the subject is a convicted felon is to minimize this fact as to further a poltical agenda which benefits from the minimization and marginalization of this fact. 184.96.176.174 (talk) 06:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
I agree with this analysis and suggest the mention be returned to the lead sentence. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 04:45, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't agree that it is nec. to put in lead sentence, also 'convicted felon' is loaded, why not state (as now), wxactly what the 'felony' was. Pincrete (talk) 08:48, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
As noted in a previous discussion your preference does not seem not consistent with other[REDACTED] articles where a person's notability derives from their felon status, Pincrete. But would "convicted felon involved with campaign finance fraud" be acceptable consistent with your request? Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 13:34, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agree that convicted felon belongs here. He also confessed to this when he plead guilty to avoid prison time. It's a fact, notable to the history of this man. We report, and let the readers decide. No reason to exclude it other than for political reasons.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 12:12, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- The above comments come from a random IP, a banned sockpuppet, and a brand-new account engaged in over-the-top POV-pushing (such as removing Alan Dershowitz and other reliable sources under the guise of purging "WP:synth ... and WP:OR" and replacing—sans explanation—the previously accepted photograph of D'Souza with his mugshot). Editors familiar with Misplaced Pages standards such as WP:BLP and WP:LEAD should know better than to identify anyone as a "convicted felon" in the first sentence—unless that is what the person is principally known for.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, Oneshotofwhiskey, I know a sock when I see one, and will likely be filing an SPI shortly.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:07, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- TheTimesAreAChanging, your own blind reverting and bad faith edit summary comments are not helping. I agree it is over emphasis to have "convicted felon" in the very first sentence - it is not what the individual is notable for, and his convicted felon status was also mentioned later in the lede, adding even more to the overemphasis. However, exactly the same is true for "Indian American" - yet TheTimesAreAChanging seems to think it is appropriate to have this bit of lede overemphasis and lede duplication. Alas, for me, this indicates partisan-based pov editing and not editing intended to attain a quality neutral article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- I reverted back to the old version. I'm not responsible for anything in the old version. If you want to change the established stable text, go ahead; if you are reverted, come to talk to seek consensus for your change. Is that really so hard to understand?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- That said, if someone is born in Mumbai and holds both American and Indian citizenship (as I presume D'Souza does), it is news to me that calling them "Indian American" constitutes "partisan-based pov editing"—thereby justifying the mass deletion of Alan Dershowitz and other prominent sources in a massive rollback.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Again, more bad faith comments from TheTimesAreAChanging. (: TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated blanket reverts (like this and and ) result in the removal of many edits made by various editors covering various topics and issues. If this editor finds it that easy to pick out such-and-such a single issue after making the revert, in order to justify the revert, why did they not simply address that single issue through an edit that dealt solely with that issue? Repeated blanket reverts are unconstructive, promote conflict, and make it impossible to actually address and resolve specific issues. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- I've put both EW and DS warnings on his talk page, so if you have the time or energy this can be resolved on one of those boards. SPECIFICO talk 17:29, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Tiptoethrutheminefield, let's try this again. If you look at the handy-dandy "Revision history," you won't need to make vague, unsubstantiated references to "many edits made by various editors": You can see precisely which edits I reverted and why. Oneshotofwhiskey made almost two dozen insanely over-the-top POV-pushing BOLD changes on October 10, such as replacing the accepted picture of D'Souza with his mugshot. Therefore, on October 13, I reverted back to the last stable version before the POV-pushing began: The article as it was on October 7. Besides Oneshotofwhiskey, the only editor effected by this rollback was you—it did not change Cydebot's updated category, and rendered Calibrador's replacing the mugshot with a neutral photo moot. (In fact, you caused much more disruption with your own rollback!)
- So let's review the edits I inadvertently deleted. Four of your edits were caught in the crossfire: 1, 2, 3, 4. Clearly, two of these edits were not particularly constructive (tagging a section name, deleting a fairly close paraphrase of a cited source as "POV"), but the other two were more reasonable, which is why in subsequent edits I restored your text. In response to subsequent criticism on my talk page, I replaced the Sowell paraphrase with a direct quote. Are you satisfied that this renders your blanket deletion unnecessary?
- If so, there is, in fact, only one issue remaining. You tagged "Criticisms of Hillary Clinton" with . I deleted the following two sentences, which you correctly pointed out are not criticisms at all, renaming the remaining section "Hillary's America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party":
- "D'Souza's film America features scenes depicting a 14-year-old Hillary Clinton meeting Saul Alinsky." (So what? Trivial detail.)
- "On July 7, 2015, D'Souza circulated a photoshopped image of Clinton, purporting that it showed her with a Confederate flag in the background. The original image had no such flag." (Yeah, of course it didn't. D'Souza was making a symbolic point about the history of the Democratic Party, which he believes went from enslaving blacks to buying their votes through dependence on the government dole, selling out black communities in places like Chicago and Detroit by convincing their constituents to be very, very afraid of Republican racism. You would have to be insane to think that was a real photo proving Hilary is a closet Klansman, and I highly doubt anyone actually took it that way. More wildly undue oppo-research taken from D'Souza's Twitter feed.)
- Perhaps you approve of these deletions, perhaps you don't. Like the ironically-named SPECIFICO—who comes across like a robot, with every single one of his edit summaries so vaguely written and acronym-heavy it is impossible to guess what the underlying issues might be; see, e.g., "Restored well-sourced NPOV noteworthy. Use talk if you disagree. The criterion for article content is noteworthiness, not notability of each detail. The content is widely reported by RS as cited."—I really have no idea what you are still objecting to.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:10, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with the user SPECIFICO (sp?) and the other user Tiptoethrutheminefield (funny name) that the user TheTimesAreChanging is engaging in edit warring and bad faith. I would go further and suggest page-ownership violations at this point. The consensus here is clearly to support the NPOV additions to the page, including direct clarity about D'Souza's criminal convictions. Your excuses and spins about D'Souza's scam-artisty, journalistic fraud, and unfounded conspiracy theories betray your political agenda. It has no place here. Nor did your failed attempt at a SPI witch hunt that went no where, and was clearly in service of your agenda as alluded to you in the smug remark on my page threatening to delete my account, and accusing me of being a "political opponent" in the SPI. At the moment, the consensus is against you on this so respect these/our contributions moving forward. Cease editwarring or go to arbitration if you feel like this is unfair to you. My patience is at an end.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 12:47, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, Oneshotofwhiskey, but WP cannot refer to "D'Souza's scam-artisty, journalistic fraud, and unfounded conspiracy theories" in its neutral voice. (Notice the stark contrast between my detailed, specific rationales and Oneshotofwhiskey's attempts to muddle the issues.) You're not going to get your way through mass reverts and mass deletions. If you want to change or delete something, you will have to come here on talk and explain why. There is only one line in your above rant that relates to the content disagreement, and I will respond to it: "The consensus here is clearly to support ... direct clarity about D'Souza's criminal convictions." What consensus? Pincrete ("I don't agree that it is nec. to put in lead sentence"), Tiptoethrutheminefield ("I agree it is over emphasis to have "convicted felon" in the very first sentence - it is not what the individual is notable for"), Spiffy sperry ("as stated before, this does not need two mentions in the lead") and myself all disagree. Neither the banned sock nor the IP carry much weight, so you're alone in refusing to accept normal WP:BLP standards—unless SPECIFICO wants to explicitly endorse labeling D'Souza a "convicted felon" in the first sentence, or replacing the established photo with his mugshot.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Many prominent journalists and critics pointed out D'Souza's "theories" are anecdotal observations and personal interpretation (without scientific methodology) of Obama, Hillary and other politicians he targets. And he targets politicians exclusively of a liberal bent. He based his entire movie of Obama, in fact, on his own irrelevant experiences growing up and his skewed reading (read: without proper investigating) of Obama's book. The citations out there certainly have called out D'Souza and his conspiracy theories. IN fact, the first third of his movie about Hillary alleges he was a political prisoner without a shred of real evidence. You are engaging in a page ownership violation, period. You don't own this page. My contributions are minor and expand upon what is already there, and all more than backed up by the citations. Yes, D'Souza is engaging in conspiracy theories as his theories have no credibility within the scientific and journalistic community. As for the rest - dropping "convicted felon" in the lead, the mugshot - I've have compromised on that. The remainder is neutral, factual, and accurate. WE report, we let the reader decide, and we ONLY report what is pertinent. To leave out anything I've humbly added would only be in service of your political spin. And if I am less than friendly, it is because you falsely accused me of socking and were called out for it by admins for "muckraking". You claimed oh so arrogantly that you "know a sock when you see it" and then tried to use that in service of an agenda to silence another editor. Apparently you/ew shouldn't trust your eyes and your credibility has suffered as a result of your penchance for false accusations and WP:GAMING. Forgive me, then, if you faux-indignation falls on deaf ears. Respect the contributions of others, or seek arbitration if you think these changes are not fair. You should know better than to blindly revert the work of others without discussing it here first. All I did was add clarity to what was already there. Good luck.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 23:15, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Now we're getting somewhere. Oneshotofwhiskey argues that the lead should accuse D'Souza of promoting a "conspiracy theory" about President Obama, citing the Variety review of 2016: Obama's America. I disagree, holding that such loaded language should probably not be repeated in Misplaced Pages's neutral voice. What do other editors think? (Remember: No consensus, no change.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:24, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- That would assume a prior consensus. There is no consensus that says we can not report that D'Souza is a conspiracy theorist or engaging in conspiracy theories. The (reputable) sources stating this more than back up this assertion and were reported on accordingly. I can list more sources if you like. Prominent critic and entertainment journalist Owen Gleiberman dedicated an entire page of EW to this issue (in addition to his review). The sources disagree with you and are authoratative on this. Also, canvassing for your POV is against the rules for how you build an consensus. Respect the guidelines of WP:CITEand good faith. You were already once admonished by the admins in your faux-SPI for "muckraking". Also, you are now violating 3RR rule.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 23:38, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- The last stable version does have the presumption of consensus. Of course "There is no consensus that says we can not report that D'Souza is a conspiracy theorist," but quoting an "entertainment journalist" is quite a different matter from making this accusation in WP's neutral voice, which requires very strong sourcing in a WP:BLP. While you clearly don't understand what WP:CANVASS is all about (hint: it's not just asking "What do other editors think?"), the fact that you would make such an accusation only underscores the unlikelihood that you are the month-old account you claim to be.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:48, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, can you explain why WP's lead must be rewritten to reflect Owen Gleiberman's negative review, but Alan Dershowitz is not a RS even for his own attributed opinion?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:48, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- That would assume a prior consensus. There is no consensus that says we can not report that D'Souza is a conspiracy theorist or engaging in conspiracy theories. The (reputable) sources stating this more than back up this assertion and were reported on accordingly. I can list more sources if you like. Prominent critic and entertainment journalist Owen Gleiberman dedicated an entire page of EW to this issue (in addition to his review). The sources disagree with you and are authoratative on this. Also, canvassing for your POV is against the rules for how you build an consensus. Respect the guidelines of WP:CITEand good faith. You were already once admonished by the admins in your faux-SPI for "muckraking". Also, you are now violating 3RR rule.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 23:38, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Now we're getting somewhere. Oneshotofwhiskey argues that the lead should accuse D'Souza of promoting a "conspiracy theory" about President Obama, citing the Variety review of 2016: Obama's America. I disagree, holding that such loaded language should probably not be repeated in Misplaced Pages's neutral voice. What do other editors think? (Remember: No consensus, no change.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:24, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Many prominent journalists and critics pointed out D'Souza's "theories" are anecdotal observations and personal interpretation (without scientific methodology) of Obama, Hillary and other politicians he targets. And he targets politicians exclusively of a liberal bent. He based his entire movie of Obama, in fact, on his own irrelevant experiences growing up and his skewed reading (read: without proper investigating) of Obama's book. The citations out there certainly have called out D'Souza and his conspiracy theories. IN fact, the first third of his movie about Hillary alleges he was a political prisoner without a shred of real evidence. You are engaging in a page ownership violation, period. You don't own this page. My contributions are minor and expand upon what is already there, and all more than backed up by the citations. Yes, D'Souza is engaging in conspiracy theories as his theories have no credibility within the scientific and journalistic community. As for the rest - dropping "convicted felon" in the lead, the mugshot - I've have compromised on that. The remainder is neutral, factual, and accurate. WE report, we let the reader decide, and we ONLY report what is pertinent. To leave out anything I've humbly added would only be in service of your political spin. And if I am less than friendly, it is because you falsely accused me of socking and were called out for it by admins for "muckraking". You claimed oh so arrogantly that you "know a sock when you see it" and then tried to use that in service of an agenda to silence another editor. Apparently you/ew shouldn't trust your eyes and your credibility has suffered as a result of your penchance for false accusations and WP:GAMING. Forgive me, then, if you faux-indignation falls on deaf ears. Respect the contributions of others, or seek arbitration if you think these changes are not fair. You should know better than to blindly revert the work of others without discussing it here first. All I did was add clarity to what was already there. Good luck.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 23:15, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, Oneshotofwhiskey, but WP cannot refer to "D'Souza's scam-artisty, journalistic fraud, and unfounded conspiracy theories" in its neutral voice. (Notice the stark contrast between my detailed, specific rationales and Oneshotofwhiskey's attempts to muddle the issues.) You're not going to get your way through mass reverts and mass deletions. If you want to change or delete something, you will have to come here on talk and explain why. There is only one line in your above rant that relates to the content disagreement, and I will respond to it: "The consensus here is clearly to support ... direct clarity about D'Souza's criminal convictions." What consensus? Pincrete ("I don't agree that it is nec. to put in lead sentence"), Tiptoethrutheminefield ("I agree it is over emphasis to have "convicted felon" in the very first sentence - it is not what the individual is notable for"), Spiffy sperry ("as stated before, this does not need two mentions in the lead") and myself all disagree. Neither the banned sock nor the IP carry much weight, so you're alone in refusing to accept normal WP:BLP standards—unless SPECIFICO wants to explicitly endorse labeling D'Souza a "convicted felon" in the first sentence, or replacing the established photo with his mugshot.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with the user SPECIFICO (sp?) and the other user Tiptoethrutheminefield (funny name) that the user TheTimesAreChanging is engaging in edit warring and bad faith. I would go further and suggest page-ownership violations at this point. The consensus here is clearly to support the NPOV additions to the page, including direct clarity about D'Souza's criminal convictions. Your excuses and spins about D'Souza's scam-artisty, journalistic fraud, and unfounded conspiracy theories betray your political agenda. It has no place here. Nor did your failed attempt at a SPI witch hunt that went no where, and was clearly in service of your agenda as alluded to you in the smug remark on my page threatening to delete my account, and accusing me of being a "political opponent" in the SPI. At the moment, the consensus is against you on this so respect these/our contributions moving forward. Cease editwarring or go to arbitration if you feel like this is unfair to you. My patience is at an end.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 12:47, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- I've put both EW and DS warnings on his talk page, so if you have the time or energy this can be resolved on one of those boards. SPECIFICO talk 17:29, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Again, more bad faith comments from TheTimesAreAChanging. (: TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated blanket reverts (like this and and ) result in the removal of many edits made by various editors covering various topics and issues. If this editor finds it that easy to pick out such-and-such a single issue after making the revert, in order to justify the revert, why did they not simply address that single issue through an edit that dealt solely with that issue? Repeated blanket reverts are unconstructive, promote conflict, and make it impossible to actually address and resolve specific issues. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- TheTimesAreAChanging, your own blind reverting and bad faith edit summary comments are not helping. I agree it is over emphasis to have "convicted felon" in the very first sentence - it is not what the individual is notable for, and his convicted felon status was also mentioned later in the lede, adding even more to the overemphasis. However, exactly the same is true for "Indian American" - yet TheTimesAreAChanging seems to think it is appropriate to have this bit of lede overemphasis and lede duplication. Alas, for me, this indicates partisan-based pov editing and not editing intended to attain a quality neutral article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Where is the edit button?
I intended to add his latest hardback title, but I can not find the edit button for this page. Or an indication that this page is locked due to vandalism. Who is allowed to update this page?209.242.149.240 (talk) 21:55, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- User:209.242.149.240, make an edit request in the format of further up this page, give your reasons and the sources for the info. Pincrete (talk) 22:25, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Text and source removed in case it's useful elsewhere in the article.
The book earned praise from atheist Christopher Hitchens for Dinesh's argumentative skills.
SPECIFICO talk 15:50, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 25 Feb 2016
A para in the campaign finance section begins:
"D'Souza's claim of selective prosecution has received support from some conservative media legal scholars and commentators. Liberal Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, said..."
The first sentence should be changed to something like "commentators across the political spectrum". Or "conservative and even some liberal commentators." As it stands, the para is at best poor composition and at worst a non sequitur.Snarfblaat (talk) 05:40, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Snarfblaat, I suspect there should be a comma after 'media'. I checked the source used, that actually only supports Con media (implicit) + Dershowitz + Republican Senators, so unless there is a better source, there is nothing to support your proposed change. I removed 'leg. sch' leaving 'media and commentators', though one or the other would probably be enough. Pincrete (talk) 22:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Pincrete, I don't have additional sources, this isn't my area, I'm just arguing for internal consistency. What is the topic sentence of the paragraph? I assume the first, which states that "conservative media and commentators" have doubted the impartiality of the prosecution. What is the entire remainder of the paragraph? A discussion of the criticism of a law professor identified as "liberal". Do you agree that is intolerably poor drafting or even non sequitur?
- As to the comma, do you mean "conservative" in "conservative media and commentators" only refers to "media" and not "commentators"? Then it should be disambiguated, because that's not at all how it reads now. There are any number of ways, but a comma after "media", to my ear, wouldn't be good English. One option would be to switch the order to "commentators and conservative media" (although this still has the issue that the para goes on to discuss a "liberal" professor's views).
- This isn't my area either, I happened to see your request and while looking, noticed the text was overstating the source (evidence of one news outlet, one commentator + Dershowitz). I'm UK so have no idea whether the news outlet used as a source should be described as 'conservative', Dershowitz is usually identified as 'liberal'. Possibly 1st sentence should go, leaving 'Liberal Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz etc'. If you remember, it originally said 'conservative media legal scholars and commentators', which is even more muddled, (I didn't know that the law relating to conservative media was a specialist scholarly area!). Pincrete (talk) 23:35, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Conviction
The last paragraph discussing his conviction starts with this:
"However, D'Souza's admission of guilt upon which he was convicted has been cited as enough evidence of the appropriateness of conviction, with prosecutorial bias considered unlikely given that the sentence did not include any jail time despite a request for 10–16 months of incarceration by the prosecution."
which appears to be pure opinion, and biased. Furthermore, the sources cited are both politically biased commentators, yet the sentence implies that they would be impartial experts of law.
...
"Right-Winger Dinesh D'Souza Pleads Guilty to Felony". The David Pakman Show. May 22, 2014. Retrieved February 15, 2015.
Jump up ^ "Dinesh D’Souza’s Ex-Wife Wipes The Smile Off His Convicted Face". The Young Turks. October 2, 2014. Retrieved February 15, 2015. ...
These sources are just there to make the original sentence appear to be legitimate. They are not legitimate sources for this opinion-based statement.
- 'Has been cited' makes clear this is opinion, however I agree that undue weight is being given here to a fairly vague 'he deserved it' comment. Pincrete (talk) 13:21, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- I have tweaked the text to make clear that NY Times verifies this content and it does not rely solely on the other sources, which are valid supporting references per WP policy. SPECIFICO talk 14:20, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
D'Souza says in his guilty plea for his felony conviction,"I knew that causing a campaign contribution to be made in the name of another was wrong and something the law forbids. I deeply regret my conduct." Including anything else from other lawyers or conservative commenters to dilute the reality of this or minimize his embarrassment has no place on a[REDACTED] article, other than for purposes of political spin. It is already mentioned succinctly in our reporting that D'Souza has since tried to allege government persecution for his crimes. But since he lists no evidence, there is no need to make his case for him. It's enough that it is mentioned. For the rest, we should keep to the legitimate sources and be direct about what we DO know: that he is a convicted felon who plead quilty to this crimes...that in his alleged affair while married he resigned from his position at a Christian school after showing up with a fiancé while still married, etc. It's not our job to defend these guys. It's just our job to report the facts and let the reader decide. Nuff said.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 12:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2016
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
His 2012 film is not the highest-grossing documentary produced in the United States (a claim made in the third paragraph of the introduction). Several sources online show that another film holds that title (Fahrenheit 9/11), and that D'Souza's film is not even on the top ten list. This statement is incorrect and should be removed.
References: http://www.imdb.com/search/title?title_type=documentary&sort=boxoffice_gross_us,desc http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=documentary.htm
208.58.218.235 (talk) 00:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- Not done: IMDB is not considered a reliable source MediaKill13 (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2016
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under "Personal life" change the word "The" to the word "Their" in the second to last sentence of the section.
Change: The wedding took place at a secret location near San Diego, CA...
To: Their wedding took place at a secret location near San Diego, CA...
Jungleman606 (talk) 02:33, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Not done: I don't think it's necessary. The paragraph talks about the marriage and then talks about the wedding. A&B were married X years ago, the wedding was nice. You don't need "their" in this case. Sir Joseph 15:03, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
RfC -- Can we call D'Souza a "conspiracy theorist" in Misplaced Pages's voice ?
|
Can we call D'Souza a "conspiracy theorist" in Misplaced Pages's voice. If yes, what RS can be cited to support such a designation? SPECIFICO talk 00:30, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Survey
- Yes for the reasons cited by @Oneshotofwhiskey: in the discussion section below. SPECIFICO talk 19:30, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- I also vote Yes. As this is the consensus moving forward, I will restore the censored material since it also more than satisfies WP:CITE. If more editors come along and change the current consensus, certainly we will respect that and revert the changes.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- No. D'Souza's alleged "conspiracy theory" is that Barack Obama's political views were influenced by those of his father, Barack Obama Sr., based on D'Souza's reading of Obama's memoir Dreams from My Father. That's hardly in the same category as someone who claims the moon landing never happened. A negative review or two to the contrary seems to fall under WP:RSOPINION.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:07, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- He's making this claim as a statement of a fact, presented as a political theory about the President in the form of investigative journalism when the truth is that his movie and book are simply partisan commentary. His ridiculous comparisons between his personal life and that of Obama's is hardly investigative nor scientific but based as some sort of methology by D'Souza. He continues this approach with his Hillary film, presenting his felony crimes and incarceration as a government conspiracy to make him a political prisoner. Both a judge and D'Souza's own words negate that allegation. It's ever bit as ridiculous as the birther conspiracy theory and the moon-landing. Alan Dershowitz himself is a shoddy source considering his own actions in helping murderer O.J. Simpson get away with his crimes. It's not outrageous to suggest D'Souza is peddling conspiracy theories since the consensus in the reputable press circles are backing this up. Again, I included the Slate source for a reason. This isn't just reviews at this point. And I can include more citations if need be. We report, and we let the readers decide.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Threaded Discussion
Variety's review of Hillary's America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party labels D'Souza "a right-wing conspiracy wingnut." Therefore, User:Oneshotofwhiskey argues that referring to D'Souza as a conspiracy theorist in Misplaced Pages's neutral voice is entirely appropriate, as the Variety review satisfies WP:CITE. When dealing with a living person, however, I think it needs to be demonstrated that this label is not merely the opinion of one critic, but an overwhelmingly common description of what D'Souza is known for.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- The consensus in the main-stream press by reputable press outlets is that D'Souza is peddling conspiracy theories. That is the major indictment of his work. I even included a reputable source OTHER than a variety review. There are more if you like. There is one of many . To "specifo's" concern:[REDACTED] reports all of the time on conspiracy theories. While it might not be necessary to call D'Souza a conspiracy theorist, his work certainly falls into that realm and is backed by the consensus of reputable sources (i.e. Breitbart, daily kos are NOT reputable, etc.) The JFK theory that Oswald didn't act alone, ROSWELL's UFO crash landing, the idiotic Birther theory that Obama wasn't born in the US, the theory that Hillary Clinton is secretly dying from health issues, the liberal theory that 9/11 was a plot by the CIA, are ALL conspiracy theories that should be reported as such. It's not a derogatory label. Conspiracy theories go back to JFK and Jack the Ripper. We can certainly report about them here if that is the question.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 17:32, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. Until the edit war here and elsewhere under investigation in arbitration is resolved, I have no problem leaving out the language about conspiracy theories. However, since D'Souza does not approach his work scientifically and simply offers his own partisan and anecdotal opinions under the guise of forensic-investigative journalism, we don't owe him or the issue false equivalence. Until a consensus is reached on this, we should leave out the word "theory" all-together since a true theory implies vetting and research, which D'Souza has done none outside of simply reading Obama's book, watching news reports, and offering his own personal partisan anecdotal observations. I'm all for compromise. Let's have it.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- One of D'Souza's conspiracy theories is supposedly that Obama chose to return a bust of Winston Churchill, which Entertainment Weekly called a "factual folly." Yet Obama recently confirmed that his conservative critics were right all along. Opinion pieces are rarely reliable for statements of fact, though they can be used for attributed opinions.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:40, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- That's a fallacy. I didn't say D'Souza was wrong about everything. And even there, you are taking that article out of context. The 'conspiracy theory' that Obama has an angry radical agenda based in Islamic thinking of some kind is absurd and completely not backed by any evidence, certainly not by D'Souza. His book and film are a combination of his personal introspection with his partisan opinion about Obama's book. Look, this coded nonsense by D'Souza and those of his ilk that Obama is a secret Muslim controlled by an angry, radical agenda has no basis in impartial empirical investigative journalism. But even if you found instances that D'Souza is right about some things - and the Churchill bust is a token thing, even if correct - then that is not proof that the rest of D'Souza's ridiculous conspiracy theory is sound. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. D'Souza has failed to satisfy any burden of proof with any compelling evidence. That D'Souza himself is a felon who broke the law for his own political corruption also hurts his credibility. You can have your own set of opinions, not your own set of facts.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 22:53, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't recall D'Souza ever saying "Obama is a secret Muslim." That's simply a strawman argument.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- That's a fallacy. I didn't say D'Souza was wrong about everything. And even there, you are taking that article out of context. The 'conspiracy theory' that Obama has an angry radical agenda based in Islamic thinking of some kind is absurd and completely not backed by any evidence, certainly not by D'Souza. His book and film are a combination of his personal introspection with his partisan opinion about Obama's book. Look, this coded nonsense by D'Souza and those of his ilk that Obama is a secret Muslim controlled by an angry, radical agenda has no basis in impartial empirical investigative journalism. But even if you found instances that D'Souza is right about some things - and the Churchill bust is a token thing, even if correct - then that is not proof that the rest of D'Souza's ridiculous conspiracy theory is sound. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. D'Souza has failed to satisfy any burden of proof with any compelling evidence. That D'Souza himself is a felon who broke the law for his own political corruption also hurts his credibility. You can have your own set of opinions, not your own set of facts.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 22:53, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- One of D'Souza's conspiracy theories is supposedly that Obama chose to return a bust of Winston Churchill, which Entertainment Weekly called a "factual folly." Yet Obama recently confirmed that his conservative critics were right all along. Opinion pieces are rarely reliable for statements of fact, though they can be used for attributed opinions.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:40, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Shocking claim
Oneshotofwhiskey is now claiming that The Young Turks know more about the law than Alan Dershowitz, using this claim as an excuse to mass delete Dershowitz et al. while retaining TYT and other critics of D'Souza. Oneshotofwhiskey, can you defend this insane position, or will you stop your disruptive behavior?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:31, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- Now he's saying "Dershowitz himself is a shoddy source considering his own actions in helping murderer O.J. Simpson get away with his crimes." Does anyone think that's a valid rationale for deletion?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:35, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- To be clear, I can find another source other than the Young Turks if you like that says the same thing. As for Dershowitz, to be clear, I was not indicting him on those grounds. Since he was not involved in this trial of D'Souza, his opinion is a form of WP:SYNTH. He offers his anecdotal opinion without evidence to back up his claim and it is weasel words here to include it. D'Souza himself confessed to knowingly committing wrong doing when he told Judge Berman, "I knew that causing a campaign contribution to be made in the name of another was wrong and something the law forbids. I deeply regret my conduct." He was also prosecuted in a fair trial. We don't need to give false equivalence to the conspiracy theory that D'Souza was a political prisoner when it is a minority opinion. Look up how WP:CITE works. We do not owe people who believe the world is flat their due or say (or their fair side) when the consensus is that the world is round. The guidelines are very clear on trying to avoid giving the minority opinion too much weight, period. We have a guilty conviction and D'Souza's own admission to guilt. That is enough. It is still mentioned that D'Souza later tried to make claim he was a political prisoner. That we mentioned it here at all MORE THAN covers it. We don't need to make his case here when he has already conceded to the prevailing consensus that he was not a political prisoner.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 20:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
"Marriage scandal"
Oneshotofwhiskey's blatant vandalism continues. Compare the old, accepted "Personal life" section with the Oneshotofwhiskey version, complete with a brand-new "Marriage scandal" subsection. Is there any other BLP written in this manner? Of course not; Oneshotofwhiskey is simply making a mockery of Misplaced Pages policy. Arbitration is now necessary, and probably a topic ban to end the disruption.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:56, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. The old section was written as vaguely as possible to cover up the reporting. If you look carefully at my contributions, I restored the true reporting of those citations. His scandal is no better or worse than Clinton's or Trump's or Schwartnezegger's marriage scandals. He was forced to resign from his job for it. Showing up with a fiance while you are still married at a Christian college you are working at is no small thing. I made sure to use neutral language in this and to only include what the citations mentioned without passing judgement. You are being ridiculous now and projecting your partisan leanings. Plus, D'Souza has made some pretty vicious attacks on Obama and Hillary without evidence to back up his claims, and the consensus from the press is that he engages in hitjobs on liberals. Certainly his own personal life, when he's embroiled in real-life scandals with real-life evidence to back it up, should be under the microscope as well....especially when they've caused him to lose jobs over his sexual indiscretions. You are engaging in WP:POINTY behavior. So noted. Good luck with that.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. Here is the section that offends you so much. You would be hard pressed to point out where I'm being unreasonable. Have you read the Bill Clinton or Tiger Woods scandals sections? This is tame compared to them. Here it is:
- Yes. The old section was written as vaguely as possible to cover up the reporting. If you look carefully at my contributions, I restored the true reporting of those citations. His scandal is no better or worse than Clinton's or Trump's or Schwartnezegger's marriage scandals. He was forced to resign from his job for it. Showing up with a fiance while you are still married at a Christian college you are working at is no small thing. I made sure to use neutral language in this and to only include what the citations mentioned without passing judgement. You are being ridiculous now and projecting your partisan leanings. Plus, D'Souza has made some pretty vicious attacks on Obama and Hillary without evidence to back up his claims, and the consensus from the press is that he engages in hitjobs on liberals. Certainly his own personal life, when he's embroiled in real-life scandals with real-life evidence to back it up, should be under the microscope as well....especially when they've caused him to lose jobs over his sexual indiscretions. You are engaging in WP:POINTY behavior. So noted. Good luck with that.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
"While serving as president of King's College he became embroiled in a marriage scandal where he had an alleged affair and became engaged to a young woman while still married. In an October 16, 2012, article in World Magazine, author Warren Cole Smith reported on D'Souza's activities after a September 28 talk that year in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Smith said that D'Souza, who was married at the time, checked into a hotel with another woman and left with her the following day. He confirmed that he had been engaged to Denise Odie Joseph – herself married to Louis Joseph. After an investigation of his affair by officials of at King's College, D'Souza stated that he had suspended his engagement to Joseph. Smith noted that D'Souza filed for divorce on the date of Smith's inquiry after the marriage scandal broke. D'Souza had "disturbed some Christians" by showing up at a conference with a "fiance", despite also being married at the time. The trustees of the King's College announced after meeting on October 17, 2012, that D'Souza had resigned his position as president of the university in order "to attend to his personal and family needs". He and his wife subsequently finalized their divorce in 2013" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneshotofwhiskey (talk • contribs) 21:10, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
NOTE:I would be careful to loosely use the word "vandalism" here. Vandalism constitutes exactly what it means. No where in that above section will you find personal attacks or insults or lies about D'Souza. We are not calling him a pathological liar, delusional, mentally-unstable, or an adulterer though outside of[REDACTED] it is certainly true. In fact, the judge in his case ordered him to undergo therapy precisely for those reasons according to his sentence and D'Souza has complied. Your continued exaggeration of false accusations about vandalism where there is none, or an agenda where there is none, will make it hard for anyone to talk you serious. Please leave the hot-headedness out of it, please. This had returned to a pleasant civil debate until you resumed with the emoting.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Page Protection
@Oshwah: Now that the page has been protected, I would suggest reverting back to the last stable version prior to the edit war initiated by User:Oneshotofwhiskey, namely the article as it was edited by Fuebaey on October 13. Since that date, Oneshotofwhiskey mass deleted over 2,000 bytes of previously accepted material from reliable sources like Alan Dershowitz seven times (, , , , , , ) claiming "Since (Dershowitz) was not involved in this trial of D'Souza, his opinion is a form of WP:SYNTH. He offers his anecdotal opinion without evidence to back up his claim and it is weasel words here to include it" (needless to say, that is not a proper application of the policy), and noting "Dershowitz himself is a shoddy source considering his own actions in helping murderer O.J. Simpson get away with his crimes." Oneshotofwhiskey also added over-the-top, BLP-violating POV language to the lead—"Both posit a conspiracy theory - based upon his personal partisan opinions and anecdotal observations"—despite the ongoing "conspiracy theory" RfC (which has yet to attract any outside comments) and his own pledge not to do so. The material Oneshotofwhiskey mass deleted has been in the article without controversy since December 2014, and no-one has endorsed his deletion. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that per WP:BRD, the WP:ONUS is on him to obtain consensus for deleting this long-standing material; the fact that he was a more aggressive edit warrior than myself certainly isn't a sound reason to retain his version as the default while the page is locked from editing.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:30, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Of course I disagree with TheTimesAreAChanging's request to revert the page back to the version he most prefers since that is what started this content war to begin with!lol..Doh! Thank you again for a fair decision, Oshwan.
- I take this as authoritative by the admins, moving forward: "You two are to discuss the issues on the article's talk page and in a civil manner. Failure to do so, or engaging in further edits without consensus will result in discretionary sanctions." Clearly that would negate reverting the page for any reason at this point since consensus and discussions on the talk page should influence changes on the page. It would appear that the week long block is clearly was meant as a cooling off period for the page itself, so we can use that time to work out our difference.
- Again, in the spirit of Oshwan's decision, it sounds like user TheTimesAreAChanging and I are supposed to work things out here and do so without name calling or muckraking. I think that is a great idea! And again, if it needs to be said, it obviously wouldn't be fair to revert this page back to the version that TheTimesAreAChanging prefers since that is tantamount to me having to ask him for permission for any change I would like (since he's defending the page as is before others came along to make changes to it). Since other editors are involved us than just he and I, I would like us to work on the consensus for what should or should not stay in the page out of respect for them as well. For my part, I had already conceded and removed many of my contributions on the page anyhow. Maybe user TheTimesAreAChanging overlooked that. The page as it exists for the moment seems to be a good starting ground for all editors involved. I take it that we are to start with a clean slate moving forward, which is why I am not requesting any version of the page I prefer. We should just leave it alone since this kind of debate is wasting time IMHO that could be spent on consensus building and dispute resolution. Again I think it is best to focus on the consensus instead and leave the page alone until a civil dialogue that respects all the editors involved is created. I will start a section now in that vein since user TheTimesAreAChanging is choosing to spend his time trying to essentially appeal the decision with this request. I invite him and others to join me in that debate.
- Again, for the record: I request to leave the page alone for now and work out changes to it piece by piece as a litmus test to see which editors are willing to build consensus and be civil to each other.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 05:50, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
First topic for debate: D'Souza's photo
As I have already stated, I'm different to which photo we use here. Originally, I felt like we should include the cropped mugshot of D'Souza since he's presently obsessing over his time in jail. Clearly he is basing his identity around this idea that he's a self-proclaimed political prisoner and he is even devoting entire sections of his films and work toward this. However, I understand the other side of this as well which is that some might perceive this as an attempt to make him look bad. I get that. But I'm curious about what the other editors like SPECIFICO and whomever else visits this page. Please weigh in on this.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 05:54, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Categories:- Biography articles of living people
- All unassessed articles
- Start-Class biography articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- Start-Class Christianity articles
- Low-importance Christianity articles
- Start-Class Indian Christianity work group articles
- Low-importance Indian Christianity work group articles
- Indian Christianity work group articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles
- Start-Class India articles
- Low-importance India articles
- Start-Class India articles of Low-importance
- Start-Class Goa articles
- Low-importance Goa articles
- Start-Class Goa articles of Low-importance
- WikiProject Goa articles
- WikiProject India articles
- Start-Class Creationism articles
- Low-importance Creationism articles
- Start-Class Intelligent design articles
- Low-importance Intelligent design articles
- Intelligent design articles
- WikiProject Creationism articles
- Start-Class United States articles
- Low-importance United States articles
- Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance
- Start-Class Asian Americans articles
- Low-importance Asian Americans articles
- WikiProject Asian Americans articles
- Start-Class Dartmouth College articles
- Low-importance Dartmouth College articles
- WikiProject Dartmouth College articles
- WikiProject United States articles
- Start-Class Alternative views articles
- Low-importance Alternative views articles
- WikiProject Alternative views articles
- Unassessed Conservatism articles
- Unknown-importance Conservatism articles
- WikiProject Conservatism articles
- Misplaced Pages requests for comment