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Years List‑class Mid‑importance

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Alexander Alexandrovich Volkov (politician)

Even though had eleven articles at the time of his death, I don't think he should be included, just like how Charlie Murphy is not included. I guess, leave him out. Gar (talk) 04:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, considering that practically all the non-English articles are clones and have no local references, AND several of which (including the Udmurt one) do not seem to have noticed that he died, it seems he was not particularly notable. Exclude. DerbyCountyinNZ 05:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

• • @DerbyCountyinNZ Exclude is right. Gar (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
    • No, we'll add individuals notable enough for articles. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not how things work on recent year articles - we have a much higher bar for inclusion here. If they're not internationally notable, they should be excluded. Jim Michael (talk) 20:06, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Policy, guideline, project inclusion criteria please, or else it stays. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:RY#Deaths. A person has to have international notability to be included. For years, we've excluded people who lack international notability even if they have enough articles. Jim Michael (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude - I added the guy's death in 2017 in Russia. That should suffice, shouldn't it? Meanwhile, while being the 1st Head/President of Udmurtia was grand, Udmurtia is part of Volga Federal District. Also, "Udmurtia" is geographically small, and being the Head of Udmurtia is great... but not internationally significant. Therefore, the guy's death should be excluded, while his death should suffice there. Meanwhile, the "2017 in Russia" itself might need some improvements, while "2017" receives the more attention than its child articles. Also, 2017 in the US and 2017 in the UK are more edited and more viewed than any other "2017 in <country>". George Ho (talk) 04:22, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, he should be excluded because he wasn't the leader or a country, just of a small part of one. If we included anyone who's been the leader or part of a country, we'd be swamped with them. They're not usually internationally notable. Jim Michael (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

2017 Manchester Arena bombing

The only international notability to this is Ariana Grande stopping her concert tour. Jim Michael (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. User should stop edit warring and come discuss Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

If this is what your saying, then your saying that the Orlando shooting shouldn't be included on the 2016 page. --MarioProtIV (/_contribs) 16:41, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

A perfectly logical assessment. DerbyCountyinNZ 18:43, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree - and the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting isn't on 2016. Jim Michael (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

As I was expecting this discussion to eventuate, I started this discussion at WP:RY. DerbyCountyinNZ 04:10, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Let's just add the Manchester Attack and get it done with, if y'all don't quit acting like babies, in adding it myself. Rocko's Modern Life (talk) 02:47, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not how things work here - we don't include domestic events. Jim Michael (talk) 19:24, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

The effect of the bombing was truly international. I say include. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

In what way was the effect international? Jim Michael (talk) 19:30, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Victims from different countries, performer from different continent, reaction from around the globe (I love Manchester concert). The Rambling Man (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Victims from different countries is commonplace when there are many victims in a city that has a high level of immigration and/or international tourism. A concert isn't internationally notable just because the performer is from another country/continent (if it were, these pages would be full of music events). There's a reaction from many countries after terror attacks - that's standard. Jim Michael (talk) 20:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

This was internationally notable, reported internationally, involved international performers and international victims. So yes, internationally notable. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

You could say that about loads of music events - except for the victims, which you could say about many terror attacks. Jim Michael (talk) 20:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

But we're not, we're saying about this one only. So it should be included. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:47, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

• Neutral - It seems like one of random murder-suicide bombings by some random radical Islamic guy.... Or maybe the guy might not have worked alone. How did the bomber obtain a bomb? Investigators are working on it. Of course, it would justify exclusion. The topic is the bombing, neither the singer nor the tour. Ariana Grande is a worldwide sensation and celebrity with worldwide hits, and "Dangerous Woman Tour" is a worldwide event involving the hit singer. While the tour alone should not be included, combine all three, and that could have justified inclusion. However, neither is adequate enough to justify inclusion.

  The event is already included in 2017 in the UK, so why else should the event be included in the "2017" page? Maybe it prompted PM Theresa May into raising the country's terror alert level to "critical", but that lasted four days before lowering back to previous level, i.e. "severe". Maybe British intervention in Syrian Civil War is possible, but that's not yet happening. Maybe it led to One Love Manchester, but that benefit concert was one-day event. Maybe that led to investigation leaks due to US intelligence mishandling, but I guess that's the mainstream news media emphasizing and continuing the Trump mania. I can't support the inclusion of it just because of the event itself and the aftermath. However, combine Grande, her tour, and the awful crime, and I can't support the exclusion of the entry yet. --George Ho (talk) 06:35, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The only significant international notability is Grande stopping her tour. However, tours are stopped/suspended for various reasons (lack of ticket sales, injury/illness), so that's not an important world event. Jim Michael (talk) 21:28, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Glenne Headly

She had nine non English wikis before death but I feel that an exception could be made for her. Rusted AutoParts 16:30, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• In what way? Looks notable enough to me. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

in what way do you mean "what way"? I'm supporting her inclusion here, but policy is that individuals must have 10+ non wikis in order to be considered notable for inclusion. She had nine prior to death, so that's why i'm suggesting perhaps an exception could be made for her to remain. But if it's determined she shouldn't, I'll abide by that decision. Rusted AutoParts 18:45, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• • • Oh, sorry, thought you meant an exception to WP:RYD and that you wanted her excluded. (It still says that you just need nine, not more, so I'm not sure where 9+ comes from?) Nohomersryan (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, where's the 10+ coming from? WP:RY says "at least nine" not "more than nine". -- Irn (talk) 21:51, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

9+ non-English Wikis (i.e. 10+ in total but excluding Simple English). DerbyCountyinNZ 22:52, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, right, that's my understanding, but the first comment in this section advocates making an exception to include someone with "nine non English" articles. That's just a mistake, then, right? In other words, this discussion is kind of backwards: even though Glenne Headly meets the minimum requirement, it's been proposed that she not be included. -- Irn (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

You're right, she had 9 + :en at the time of her passing, so according to guidelines, she could be included by default. I thought (below) that we were talking about someone with 9-language coverage overall. — Yerpo 04:51, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of inclusion. Being a second-tier actress with no major awards simply doesn't justify making exceptions, in my opinion. — Yerpo 19:26, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The 9+ non-English Wiki requirement is already becoming too low so I don't see that an exception is justified. DerbyCountyinNZ 21:09, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

And FWIW, her non-English articles are clearly cloned from the English, consist of a very brief biography and a list of films/tv series and contain almost no local citations. DerbyCountyinNZ 00:25, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

In what way is she internationally notable? She's one of an increasingly large number of people who lack international notability, but has stub articles in several languages - some of which are insufficiently referenced and/or badly written/translated. We need additional guidelines for inclusion, such as having won major awards. Jim Michael (talk) 16:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude - Per others. Despite high appearance, she won very little or no significant awards. Also, her roles were not significant and impactful. --George Ho (talk) 05:26, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Regardless of all this, she's already listed at 2017 in film, as many others listed here should be, a more refined view of 2017. There should not be 25+ deaths per month listed here. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:58, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Otto Warmbier

Technically, he had 9 non-English articles before his death, but two of them were added a day before when such an outcome was imminent. I suggest exclusion, the event was tragic, but this person wasn't notable for any real achievement, so WP:NOTNEWS would apply. — Yerpo 09:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same lines. People who gain notability through circumstance rather than achievement are subject to exclusion per WP:RYD. Unless his death results in some tangible international reaction then he should be excluded. DerbyCountyinNZ 10:32, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add the destruction of the Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul under the "events" section Debartolo2717 (talk) 02:24, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:23, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Debartolo2717:/@Eggishorn: If you don't mind me asking, why exactly is this event so important to deserve a place in the yearly list? A number of cultural monuments was destroyed in this conflict, what makes this mosque so special (aside from the structural glitch)? — Yerpo 05:03, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I won't attempt to speak for Debartolo2717, but possibly because it was supposed to be IS's capital? I fulfilled the edit request because it was verifiable, there wasn't any general policy reason to not add it, and nothing on this page appears to forbid it. Other year articles include major cultural crimes, such as the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan in the 2001 article. If a consensus develops her after discussion that it should not belong (perhaps per WP:NOTNEWS), I won't object. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, as per WP:RY it "... must have a demonstrated, international significance". Although it has often been argued that "international significance" is undefined this is one of many cases where there appears to be no (or at least insufficient) international significance. DerbyCountyinNZ 05:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Gnews search for "mosul mosque destruction" gets ~41,000 results in the last 24 hours, from most major US and UK outlets, as well as major RS from Israel, Hong Kong, Al-Arabiya and Al Jazeera, etc. with officials from the US, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and even Indonesia expressing condemnation of various sorts. That seemed like demonstrating international significance to me and so I didn't think RY was a barrier. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:51, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

A common misconception: Merely being mentioned in numerous news outlets, and even the "expressing (of) condemnation" does not demonstrate "significance" as this happens for every disaster or similar; there is no actual international effect. This is a common area of dispute in Recent Year pages and has, despite the efforts of a few editors, has never been adequately resolved. DerbyCountyinNZ 07:05, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it. There's no reason to include this one, but not the destruction of other buildings. Media reports and condemnation from public figures is standard - this isn't unusual. Jim Michael (talk) 18:36, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

As it was actually featured on the main page, I've restored it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Being on the main page doesn't mean that it should be here. Jim Michael (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It simply reinforces the fact that the community found it notable, interesting and something that our readers would want to see. Of course, this project seems not interested in our readers' interests. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Not the community, just the people who decide what's on the main page - which as you know has different inclusion criteria. We list internationally notable events & deaths - not what's most interesting or popular. Jim Michael (talk) 20:22, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the community, unlike this project where it's down to inside knowledge and hidden criteria. And no, you don't list internationally notable events, just events with articles at nine other Wikipedias. That is not the same thing, as you have been repeatedly told by numerous people. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, since WP:OTHERSTUFF was invoked, the Buddhas of Bamiyan were a UNESCO World Heritage monument, so not really comparable, no. — Yerpo 19:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

And 2001 isn't a recent year - so the inclusion criteria are different. Jim Michael (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I think you two are arguing against each other!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

No, we're agreed in supporting the current criteria and opposing your attempts to add domestic events. Jim Michael (talk) 21:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Nope, the example of this "swamping" of destroyed buildings given was from 2001, not eligible, so precisely how many of these events have "swamped" RY? The Rambling Man (talk) 04:48, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

There have been far more buildings destroyed in the Middle East in the last few years, because of the Syrian Civil War. Jim Michael (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Where are all the articles that have been proposed for inclusion then? Where is this "swamp"? You keep mentioning "other buildings" but no-one is talking about them, we're talking about this one which has received three-continent coverage per the project criteria for inclusion. If the project inclusion criteria are now wrong, please address that first before maintaining that this (and others) are ineligible. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

My guess would be most of the editors who would add such events have read and understood the guideline at WP:RY. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:43, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul

This appears to be controversial. Is it notable enough to be included? Power~enwiki (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: @The Rambling Man:

Support

1. as nom. It's a major event in the war against ISIS.
2. as nom. It may be an important historical landmark.

Oppose

1. as nom. It's one of many news events in the war against ISIS.
2. as nom. It may not be an important historical landmark.

• Notable enough to be included in the ITN section of the main page of Misplaced Pages, I'd say this is pretty bloody obvious. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

ITN has a much lower bar for inclusion than RY. I don't know why you're falsely asserting that being important enough for ITN means that it's important enough to be here. This is one of many similar destructions in the Middle East's wars and terror attacks - we'd be swamped with them if were to include all of them. Jim Michael (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Is that why the 2017 article is basically empty? You would not be swamped if you included all the ITN stories about destructions of prominent buildings in the Middle East. That assertion is absolutely false. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's nothing like empty. Many important buildings are destroyed in wars - our articles would be dominated by these details if we included them. Jim Michael (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote. You would not be swamped if you included all the ITN stories about destructions of prominent buildings in the Middle East. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

We'd have far too many. Destruction of cultural heritage by ISIL lists many, and too many of them are put on ITN. Jim Michael (talk) 20:46, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

How many of them have been put on ITN? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, but it's too many. This one's on ITN now, but shouldn't be on here. Jim Michael (talk) 20:52, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

If it's appropriate for main page inclusion, it's appropriate for inclusion here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Why do you wrongly believe that? We have different inclusion criteria here. Note, for example, that we haven't included any of the attacks in London. Jim Michael (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Yet you include Prodigy, a rapper whose article is so inadequate that it's been given short shrift at ITN? Is it that you include unreferenced junk here and exclude quality articles that have millions of hits? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I've just removed him due to a lack of international notability. Number of page views isn't part of the inclusion criteria here. Jim Michael (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

So just an indiscriminate collection of poor articles which bear no resemblance to items that our readers would be interested in learning about? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Not indiscriminate - they have to be of international notability, a criteria that isn't used at ITN. Domestic events are on articles such as 2017 in the United States and 2017 in the United Kingdom. ITN has article quality as its most important factor for inclusion, whereas here it's international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Got it, that's why it gets so few page views, a bizarre mixture of criteria leading to a page which is full of barely interesting and pisspoor BLPs, but bereft of actual news stories or quality articles. I understand, I'm happy to leave you this, I may well suggest we completely overhaul the contents in the future because right now it's a bugger's muddle and doesn't serve our readership at all. Imagine wanting to know what's happened in 2017 to be confronted with ONE EVENT IN FEBRUARY GLOBALLY (!) yet the death of a Japanese manga artist and a stub about a Papua New Guinean politician feature in no fewer than 44 deaths. Do you really believe that's the right balance? Would Britannica have a single entry globally for all of Feb 2017 while having 44 "notable" deaths? Think again. And no, not at all, ITN does not have "article quality as its most important factor for inclusion", that's a completely false assertion. Quality is a requirement, consensus for suitability is the most important factor. Please don't make such false assertions. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not bizarre. Events have to be internationally notable. Deaths have to be of internationally notable people. Some death of people who lack international notability are added because they have many articles, making them seem internationally notable. Many of those are poorly-referenced stubs, sometimes created in order to have them included here. Heads of state and heads of government are automatically included, which is why Michael Ogio is there. Jiro Taniguchi won an award in France, which is probably justification for his inclusion. Jim Michael (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's completely bizarre, a subset of the list of deaths which is covered elsewhere (e.g. Deaths in 2017), but a sprinkling of so-called internationally notable events, excluding most of those the encyclopedia deemed notable enough for main page inclusion which would have millions of pageviews and would be of interest to our readers. This page should be getting a million hits a day. Instead, 5000? Something's wrong here. Still, you all seem well happy with the awful muddle you've created, so good luck to you. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

They're an internationally notable subset - what's bizarre about that? This wouldn't receive anything like a million pageviews, regardless of content. "So-called"? Which of the events on here aren't internationally notable? Jim Michael (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a dead-end page. People won't be coming here for information, especially once they realise what's here. ONE GLOBAL EVENT in February 2017? Seriously. People's talk pages get more views than this amateur collection of oddities. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

There are no oddities here - only internationally notable events and births and deaths of internationally notable people. There aren't many events which are internationally notable. It's not a dead end - there are links in the 2017 by topic box to many articles with focuses on particular countries or types of events. Jim Michael (talk) 22:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, if you believe 44 deaths and a single global event to be reasonable, this conversation ends. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

General discussion relating to the 2017 page which resulted from the previous discussion

@The Rambling Man: I agree with your conclusion (that the guidelines used to determine which events are notable are far too restrictive). However, that is the consensus, and right now, you're arguing against consensus. That's not going to work. I think that at the very least the wording at WP:RY needs to be made more explicit. Right now, the operating consensus amongst those most dedicated to watching and maintaining these pages is to interpret the “demonstrated, international significance” required by the guideline as meaning having tangible effects in multiple countries. That results in very few events being listed. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

What other reasonable way of interpreting it is there? Jim Michael (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: There are myriad other reasonable ways of interpreting such a phrase. Significance is a highly subjective concept. What is significant to one person might not be significant to another. There is no definitional reason to limit significance to effects, and effects are by no means the only way to demonstrate significance. -- Irn (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Let's (objectively) summarize this event. "The (rebel) citizens of a country destroyed a historic monument in their own country. Again. Many other countries expressed their disapproval of the destruction. Again. As a consequence...nothing happened. Again." The destruction of the monument was so significant that it got its own Misplaced Pages page...oh, wait, no it didn't. But it did make the news. Like millions of other events throughout history. Resulting historical significance? So far, minimal. If at some point in the future the destruction of this mosque is deemed to have been a significant turning point in the war on ISIS then by all means include it. At present it is of no particular significance and therefore there is no justification for its inclusion (under long-standing consensus). As for the criteria for inclusion, yes they need to be clarified and/or updated. But that discussion belongs at Misplaced Pages talk:Recent years not here. And FWIW changing the criteria just to make a point and get something included because you failed to get consensus on a Recent Year talk page is not constructive. DerbyCountyinNZ 05:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Looks like some serious ownership issues here. You all honestly believe that one "notable" event (Per your own criteria) took place across the entire globe in the whole of February? Seriously, that's why no-one uses this page. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:10, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

TRM, that's enough. That is nowhere near close to an actual argument. I think it's time to drop the stick and let it go. Should you have more policy- or guideline-based arguments in the near future, you can always return. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 15:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

As Derby said, the destruction of the mosque doesn't have it's own article. It's one of many mosques and other buildings that have been destroyed in the Middle East in recent years.

This - and other RY articles - link to many year articles that centre on particular countries, types of event etc. Jim Michael (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I was applying a "common sense guideline". If this "project" or whatever it is, determines that one global event occurred in February 2017, then it renders these kind of pages useless. Particularly when we have 44 deaths within the same month featured on the page. Policy or guideline? This particular page doesn't seem to use either, it has a bizarre version of notability for inclusion, and a despairingly low pageview. That all speaks for itself. If you want to preserve this as-is, fine, but you need to understand that it's running itself to death and no interest. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

If we applied similar guidelines to ITN, year articles would be full of various domestic crimes in which few or no people are killed, awards, destructions of buildings, sports events etc. that most people aren't interested in. Also, it would be a pointless duplication. You've repeatedly mentioned February, but haven't suggested any world events which happened during that month which you think should be included. Jim Michael (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not my job, you honestly think that the hundreds of nominations at ITN in February would garner just one "worldwide significant" event? Honestly? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

How about:

• 2017 Africa Cup of Nations
• 2017 Australian Open
• Malta Declaration (EU)
• 59th Annual Grammy Awards
• Ceres (dwarf planet)
• Cloudbleed
• 89th Academy Awards

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I doubt that any of those are eligible. Very few sports events are important enough - they go on 2017 in sports. We don't usually include awards or space-related events. Jim Michael (talk) 19:13, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, reading the arcane and bizarre inclusion critieria (e.g. "nine or more" sources), as you claim to ignore global awards and space events, this renders these year pages even more useless than I'd thought. Plus the fact that it's unclear to a "reader" where to go to find such information, there's an over-crowded sidebox, but honestly it now looks like we should delete these cherry-picked events and just stick with a list of lists, i.e. 2017 links to 2017 in sport. 2017 in politics etc. Because the choice currently being made is bonkers and is leading to a nominal amount of pageviews which renders this bureaucratic oversight pointless. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

It's WP articles in nine or more languages other than English (to show considerable international notability), not nine or more sources.

The box is needed to show the many articles about this year in different subjects, countries etc. Jim Michael (talk) 20:38, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I know, it's just how do our readers actually understand what is and what is not included in such prominent articles? The answer is: THEY DON'T AND THEY CAN'T SO THEY WON'T READ IT. Hence fewer page views on such prominent articles than some users' talk pages. Glad the one or two of you who "run this project" seem happy with what you've produced, but it is, frankly, shambolic. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The criteria for year articles from 2002 onwards are detailed on WP:RY - although they could be clearer and improved. There are several regular editors here, not one or two. The inclusion criteria here are very different to those at ITN, where in many cases an event is only relevant to the country in which it occurred. Jim Michael (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you've noted that three or four times. The point is that our readers, when heading for a 2017 page, wouldn't expect to see such pseudo-random collection of items with such arcane selection methods applied. It looks like an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages, but you have your own rules and your own group of a couple of editors maintaining it. Good luck, I hope one day you'll get more views than weak DYK. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

There's nothing random about them - they're the internationally, historically notable events of the year only. There are several of us, not a couple. If you have any specific ways of improving the project guidelines, detail them and they'll be considered. Jim Michael (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh my gosh, this is getting pathetic guys. Y'all are just bickering at each other. This is not even remotely close to reaching consensus whatever your views may be. Jim and TRM, let it go already. The constant "This page is a joke and I hope it dies" type of vibe is absurd. This isn't even a discussion. Can both you let this go already? This is so wasteful. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 05:18, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Totally correct assessment! DerbyCountyinNZ 05:41, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. The inclusion criteria is bizarre to say the least, and making an assertion that only one event has taken place in February 2017 really is delusional. It's doing a real disservice to our readers. And I don't think anyone said "I hope it dies", from the pageviews, it already has. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:08, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man:: if you have a better idea about criteria, please post it to Misplaced Pages talk:Recent years, otherwise stop wasting everybody's time with your useless rambling. Thank you. — Yerpo 12:15, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Bin the odd guidelines being applied for which news items appear and simply use those which gained consensus for posting at ITN. After all they are a quality record of events that the community believes the reader would find interesting and useful. As for deaths, bin them altogether with this peculiar "nine languages" req, and point directly to Deaths in 2017. That way, this page would be actively useful for readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:06, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Your idea would make this page redundant. Events on recent year articles are only internationally notable ones, not all the forgettable domestic ones on ITN. The deaths on here only those of internationally notable people. It's already well-known that the full list is at Deaths in 2017. Jim Michael (talk) 19:38, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Not really, there's no single archive of a year's worth of stories run at ITN. By far the biggest problem the page has is that it does not describe its inclusion criteria anywhere for our readers, so, like me, they'd take one look at it and think "only one global event worth noting in February 2017? Seriously? This page is incomplete". And that would be a generous assessment. Similarly, the inclusion criteria for deaths makes this a silly page when it's some odd proportion of "Deaths in ....", better off either using the RDs from ITN, or simply posting the redirect. Cherry-picking based on odd criteria which our readers are unaware of is the last thing you should be doing. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

So the Juno spacecraft going into orbit around Jupiter (which is listed at 2016, and rightfully so) is of more importance than two discoveries that are of high importance to the SETI community then? However, I don't think the one event that is listed for February belongs there, but apparently each missile that North Korea test launches, and the subsequent tantrum that several other countries then methodically throw in response (including some countries that have a nuclear program themselves, and should thus not be yelling at other countries for attempting to do the same), is worthy of being included on the list. If anything, it should be the outright hypocrisy involved in the "international condemnation" that is on the list. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 20:52, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The deaths chosen aren't odd - they're the deaths of internationally notable people only. The death criteria for ITN are merely that the living thing has an article that's reasonably well-written. Jim Michael (talk) 21:04, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the deaths are odd - this decision to use "nine" Wikipedias to prove "international notability" is bizarre to say the least, but you fail to address the key point, how does the reader know what the selection criteria are for this? Your current selection criteria means any old unreferenced stubs in any old un-read Misplaced Pages's count towards "international notability"? I understand to find quantifiable evidence that "international notability" is present may be a challenge, but this is not the way to solve it. So please, how does the reader know who is and who is not included? And in terms of stories, what and what is not included? A brief look at the page history will adequately demonstrate that not even seasoned editors understand the point of this page. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I disagree. ITN is full of trivia and distinctively Western-centric, both of which we're trying to avoid here. The criteria were developed on the basis of experience with older year pages which to some extent still contain useless crap like "First steel bridge in Alabama was built near Lonelyville". You may disagree with our method, but your method would not be a good alternative if we're trying to build an impartial encyclopedia. — Yerpo 05:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Once again you're failing to address one of the main issues: how does the reader know what is included here? Why should there be just one entry for February 2017? ITN "distinctively Western-centric"? E.g. today we have stories running on Pakistan, China, Ireland, Afghanistan, Saudi and an Angolan author. The RDs are East German, Australian, British, American. That seems like a good mix to me, and one that our readers would appreciate. The fact you're claiming to use the existence of articles on other Wikipedias to establish "international notability" of deaths is bizarre, and naturally suffers its own bias as many minority Wikipedias simply don't have the editorship. And no heed is paid to quality or sourcing. How very strange. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

It's hard to prove because ITN doesn't have an archive and the selection of events is by chance not so obviously biased at the moment, but recent deaths are a good example - all are westerners. The reader can click on the talk page link and find the project page containing criteria, just as easy or easier than they can find the nominating section for ITN. — Yerpo 05:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

PS: since February bugs you so much, I think the Ceres news could be worthy of inclusion, the rest of your proposals are pure trivia. — Yerpo 06:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Have you looked at the last dozen or so listed here, 90% westerners?! And ITN posted the Saudi, the Ivorian, the Vanuatuan.... And you must realise that most non en-wiki articles are based on en-wiki, so you're simply reinforcing any bias by basing your decisions on that odd "nine Wikipedias" criterion which our readers are completely oblivious to. And most of the non en-wiki articles are appalling/unreferenced. This is an unhelpful hotchpotch of poorly chosen articles using some secret methodology, some of which are simply inexcusably bad and should not be featured, and in no way represents what our readers would expect to find in a page entitled "2017". The Rambling Man (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. You're missing the point of this encyclopedia. It's not "trivial" to report on the 2017 Africa Cup of Nations, that's something the readers want to see, 1/4 of a million hits in a few days in fact. Or the Academy Awards, 2 million hits over three or four days. So sorry, it's not "trivia", it's precisely what our readers are interested in and would expect to see in a page describing the major events of 2017. At the very least, this page, and similar ones, need to have a caveat at the top of each article explaining the inclusion criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Our primary mission - to educate - does not always overlap with what's popular, and decreasingly so. By criterion of what's "interesting", we should start listing (western) celebrity weddings to satisfy readers. The article Pippa Middleton had almost half a million hits around 20 June this year. Do you really think that would make sense? — Yerpo 13:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

No, my suggestion is to provide a list of all the stories that the community decided were (a) notable enough for inclusion on the main page and (b) of sufficient quality for our readers to gain a decent understanding of the matter in hand. I'm not sure where you got the idea that that would include Pippa Middleton's wedding. The pageviews I've referred to above are for items that appeared on the main page through community consensus. Items that appear on this list are subject to a covert and complex set of criteria to which our readers appear to be left deliberately ignorant. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I checked the WP:5P and can safely say that "to educate" is by no means our "primary mission", it is not even mentioned there. WP:EDUCATE doesn't exist either. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:15, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

We don't include sports events that are limited to one continent. The nine non-English WP article requirement at death is only a guideline for inclusion in the Deaths section. We go against that if the person is internationally notable but has fewer articles (including heads of government/state) and if the person has enough articles but isn't internationally notable. The regular editors here do know, understand and largely agree with the inclusion criteria - the problem is that many non-regulars don't. You're right that we need to clearly tell the readers what the inclusion criteria are. A link to WP:RY should be on the article - where would be the best place to fit it in? Jim Michael (talk) 16:30, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean "limited to one continent"? Players at the Australian Open came from Europe, Asia, North America, South America. TheAcademy Award winners came from around the globe. Please elucidate. The "nine rule" is clearly absurd and detrimental to our readers' experience of this page. Why have such an odd mid-ground between RDs on ITN and the Deaths in.... pages? It's an unnecessary and arbitrary collection of no real interest to anyone other than those who run these kind of pages. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I'm not in favor of WP:RY becoming a mirror of WP:ITN. As I see it, that section's purpose is to attract visitors by showing them that Misplaced Pages also covers widely reported events/topics, in the hope that stimulates them to start contributing (in a similar way that WP:FA stimulates people to write high quality content). WP:RY, on the other hand, are collections of the most important events in the world that year - as is the consensus. You may succeed in changing the consensus eventually, but I kinda doubt it with this approach. By the way, try the Wikimedia mission statement if you're confused about the movement's mission. You might also want to refresh your knowledge about what an encyclopedia (referenced by the very first pillar) is. — Yerpo 16:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

There's no confusion, I was talking about the purpose of Misplaced Pages, not WMf's mission statement, the two are not the same, so hopefully that alleviates any confusion for you there. To your former point, this page is simply not serving our readers in any way. They can't see what is being down-selected for inclusion, they can't see why obvious events, global events like tennis Opens and continental football tournaments are not included, they can't see why there's a slightly different list of deaths (with global notability generally based on Wikipedias?!!!). That's the whole point. I came to this page as an experienced editor but a reader, and found it to be completely confusing and disappointing. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

PS an encyclopaedia is where I go to find the information I'm looking for, not where I go to be "educated", that's school or university. The current approach here is to limit that ability to find what I want to know because of the arcane censoring. Hope that helps with your understanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

And you can go to Misplaced Pages to find the information you're looking for, but you won't find reference to everything on every page. There's selection in every step of creating an encyclopedia, and Misplaced Pages is not an exception. Like it or not, you're being educated about what's relevant as soon as you open one. As I said already, the guidelines are clearly and openly written, and the readers can see what is being down-selected for inclusion as well as in WP:ITN. It's just that the process is less organized because there's fewer people interested in WP:RY. People like you occasionally drop by and start shouting because they're "appalled" that their favorite actor or whatnot is not included, but their perspective is too narrow, so they just end up wasting everybody's time. — Yerpo 17:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Totally correct. Again. This is getting to the point where a trip to ANI might be needed to put a stop to this pointless time-wasting disruption. DerbyCountyinNZ 17:50, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

What's being disrupted? This is a talkpage, we're talking about the content. If you consider that disruption, feel free to start an ANI, I look forward to contributing there and discussing, amongst other things, your contributions to this discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

As it seems particularly difficult to get through to you I'l try and make it as clear as possible: This thread is about whether the Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul should be included in this article. The guidelines (agreed by consensus) at WP:RY state that it must be internationally notable. The consensus of this thread so far is that it is not. You have failed to come up with any reason why it should be included under the current guidelines. Whining on and on and on and on, about whether the guidelines are appropriate has no place here. As yu ohave been told more than once, if you want the guidelines changed discuss it at WP:RY, not here. One more off-topic post and we will go to ANI. DerbyCountyinNZ 04:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

No, this thread has somewhat evolved, as you can read. This is not "off-topic", if you prefer I can create a new sub-header. This discussion is perfectly cromulent. If you wish to discuss this at ANI, please feel free to do so, in fact I'd encourage it as it would result in far more eyes on this project's way of doing things. Claiming my discourse to be "pointless time-wasting disruption" would be a good place to start when looking into the behaviour in this thread. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

That is a crass and insulting characterisation, you should work on that. This page is mystifying to normal readers, it's already been noted that some editors are confused by it so why shouldn't all our readers be? Please start working on a solution rather than insulting me and any "agenda" you might think I have. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The Rambling Man it's you who's been spitting at this part of the project (and, by extension, the people involved) from the start. Don't act offended now. — Yerpo 17:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Your mistake. No one has answered the fundamental questions here, just acted defensively and with real ownership concerns. The Rambling Man (talk)||

No, yours. Jim Michael was patiently explaining the guidelines and the idea behind them, despite you getting increasingly hostile. — Yerpo 18:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

No, look back. You have become hostile. I have provided what was asked of me, solutions to the problems here. You have ardently stuck to your position and considered no alternatives. You are misleading the reader and not telling him the truth. This isn't 2017 events, this is your highly constrained and limited version. Please be honest for the sake of our readers. And no, unlike disgusting football hooligans, I have not been "spitting at" anything. Your tone and language needs some serious work. At least I can have a civil discussion with Jim, unlike having to deal with your vitriol. Note, your attitude will not dissuade me. If necessary I will happily start a community-wide RFC on the purpose of this page, including discussions over the arcane (and hidden) inclusion criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The sports event limited to one continent I was referring to is the 2017 Africa Cup of Nations. The deaths aren't a mid-ground of ITN and Deaths in 2017. For ITN, the decedent only need have a reasonably well-written article and for Deaths in 2017 they only need to have articles. For RY articles, they have to have considerable international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

So is Australian Open included in January? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

If we include that one, we'd also have to include other three Grand Slams, and then a comparable number of events for every other major sport. Thus drowning this page in sports, despite the fact that there is a page 2017 in sports. That's why we limit eligibility to the Olympics and the FIFA World Cup as the truly global sports events. — Yerpo 18:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it would lead to a lot of arguments about which sports are international and important enough - and which events for each are important enough. Jim Michael (talk) 18:56, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

So what? It's what our readers would want to see. You are both attempting to make this something it isn't. Even Encyclopedia Britannica would include results of major global sporting events in a yearly round up. You seem to think our readers would suddenly realise all the missing events appear somewhere in a linked page? How? You are completely missing the purpose of this project. If you took ITN as the lead, there'd be no arguments, they'd already have been had. This page should be a gazetteer, not a hotchpotch collection of events and deaths that somehow falls between the gaps from the main page and the Deaths in... articles. I think you all know that, but it's hard to let go. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

And why aren't the Academy Awards notable enough for inclusion? They feature individuals from all around the planet and could hardly be described as "trivial". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The recent year articles have been run as an internationally-important-events-only project for years. Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't have a list of 2017 in ... articles like we do. The film awards are all linked on 2017 in film. Sports events are on 2017 in sports. If we had the same criteria as ITN, we'd be swamped with domestic events, including crimes, sports, awards etc. - all of which are much better located on their respective pages. Jim Michael (talk) 20:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

You all believe that the world's most prominent film festival is not an "internationally-important-event"? You all believe you'd be "swamped"? ITN isn't swamped, and the product of ITNC is quality articles that the community (not some arbitrary test criteria) believe are interesting and useful to our readers. You need to work harder on telling the readers that this is, in fact, not 2017 events, but a tiny subset that you seem to believe are more important than any others, but all the rest, including those which are actually interesting to our readers, are located at other pages, like Deaths in ... or Sports in .... With so few entries, and with them all replicated elsewhere in "X in 2017", there's no real point in this page existing. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Just did a quick look, I think if you mirrored the ITN posted articles, you'd have around 10 to 15 articles per month which would make a really good and comprehensive 2017 almanac, unlike the current completely bereft version. That's not what I'd called "swamped", just what I'd call "really useful" to our readers, but I'm beginning to get the sense that this is less about the readers and more about the desires of a few editors with some curious version of what "helping our readers find what they want to read" and translating that into "helping us decide what our readers should be allowed to find". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Most of what's on ITN aren't historically, internationally notable events. ITN is swamped, to such an extent that discussions are closed whilst ongoing - especially since they reduced the requirements for RD to merely having an article that's reasonably well written. Jim Michael (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

That's clearly not true, or else you would be nominating them at WP:AFD. I didn't say you had to list every nomination at ITN, just those which were posted at the main page. Please understand better. As for RD, they have notability per English Misplaced Pages's notability policy and have the benefit of being in good condition, unlike those selected here, some of which are utter junk. But it's clear now, this kind of page has flown under the radar for far too long, it needs exposing to the wider community and some of its arcane methodology needs wider debate rather than the handful of you who are so keen to keep it as-is. I'll formulate an RFC for Wikipedians to discuss, and you'll be able to contribute there. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Not true, because they don't have to be internationally notable to have articles or be posted at ITN. If we copied all of those which were posted at ITN to here, most of the events would not be important and international. The requirement you have at ITN that an article has to be well-written to be posted would mean that we would have to not include deaths of some heads of state or government. Jim Michael (talk) 22:19, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Those are already listed at "Deaths in ..." so you needn't worry. I would personally remove the subjective list of deaths from this page altogether and simply link to the Deaths in... page. Right now, the reader has no idea whatsoever why someone may be included or excluded from this list, which is a disservice to the encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. your current "criteria" exlcudes heads of government anyway, see Habib Thiam for a recent example. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

You'll notice he hasn't been excluded. I could explain, but as you won't listen, that will have to wait (my pub quiz takes precedence). DerbyCountyinNZ 06:42, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

So the criteria aren't stringently followed, good to know. (I didn't see that certain people get a free pass, regardless of their non-significantly-international-notability, is that included in the instructions somewhere?) The Rambling Man (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

As I've already said previously, heads of state/government are always eligible (with the exception of interim leaders). Why do you think they don't have significant international notability? Jim Michael (talk) 17:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Where is that written in the criteria? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It's in the Talk archives. I've just added it to WP:RY. Jim Michael (talk) 18:43, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

• This thread is now the subject of a discussion at ANI. DerbyCountyinNZ 11:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

  Not any longer. Already closed, no action. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I think the best way to take this now since nobody wants to desist is we close this discussion. Per a user at ANI, the RfC was badly made and it's hella confusing. Then, we open up a new RfC on whether to include or exclude the mosque destruction into ITN, with this discussion as reference. Opinions? Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 12:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I've already started a discussion over how to inform the readers of the currently applied "criteria" used to decide what happens here. That's the first of a few discssuions which we should have about this project. In any case, the discussion here has moved on, hence the sub-heading. I'd like an answer to the question above, to whit I didn't see that certain people get a free pass, regardless of their non-significantly-international-notability, is that included in the instructions somewhere?

If you need an RFC to decide whether to include the mosque destruction (not into ITN as you have stated, but RY), then things are really wrong here. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:58, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I thought it was ITN, my bad. Well, Power~enwiki (sp?) started the discussion as an RfC, no? It was horribly made. I don't see how we shouldn't consider RfC? The original discussion seemed to go nowhere (and this was yesterday before ANI). Also, this discussion just goes on and on. Don't you agree it would be best to start from scratch. I don't know what should exactly be looked. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 13:04, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Then if you feel so strongly, be my guest. However, since it passes the "three continent rule" (easily), having received plenty of international coverage, so it therefore can be included with no debate. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:07, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Let me go over it first. What is the criteria to include news in RY? Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 13:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

See WP:RY. Good luck. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I have a source in North America, Europe and Asia that talk about the destruction of the mosque. How does not qualify in RY? Am I missing something? Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 14:50, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

As stated at WP:RY, the three continent rule is the minimum requirement. The rule is in fact redundant as clearly almost anything, including complete trivia, can pass this rule. DerbyCountyinNZ 17:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

So it's not a particularly useful measure then? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:25, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to satisfy the regulars here who have issued concern over the page being swamped with destroyed buildings. I don't think the criteria themselves were used to justify that position. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Criteria says otherwise. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 15:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Crimes have to have international relevance, which this doesn't. Jim Michael (talk) 17:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

This event has been reported internationally so it is internationally relevant. No brainer, add it in. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not good logic - loads of events in Kim Kardashian's life have been reported internationally. Jim Michael (talk) 18:41, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't add the "three continent rule" and then pile on subjective unwritten rules, that was the project here. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

No-one's saying you did - they were added over the years through consensus. The 3 continent rule is only one of the criteria. It's insufficient on its own because the media in many countries report a lot of trivia. Jim Michael (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

No, it doesn't say that, it says the three continent rule is the minimum. Not that it's "insufficient on its own". Please clarify that. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:05, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

You are using Kim Kardashian as an example? That's weak. Nowhere has she made any significant contributions to the world or has been apart of something globally. Her children aren't listed on RY as in the birth category. Neither is her marriage or her tape with Ray J. That argument is so invalid in so many ways. The destruction of the mosque was caused by ISIS during an ongoing war in the Middle East, also known for plenty of terrorist attacks in all of the continents if I am not mistaken. It's pretty significant because of that and, per the criteria, it's covered by at least 3 continents. I don't know why this is being fought, honestly.

I was replying to TRM's assertion that it should be added because of the international media coverage. The media in many countries have reported many things about KK's life. Jim Michael (talk) 21:12, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

My "assertion" is directly compliant with the current "criteria" so it's good to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

KK is not the cause of an ongoing crisis in the Middle East, committed terrorist attacks and caused the Syrian refugee crisis. ISIS is the cause. The mosque is apart of that. KK has nothing to do with this regardless what your intentions were. That argument was very weak. The destruction of the mosque should be included. It has international coverage and it's part of the civil war in the Middle Eastern countries. Callmemirela 🍁 04:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

The destruction of this mosque is one of many similar events in the Syrian Civil War. If we included them all, we'd be swamped with such events. Buildings are destroyed all the time during wars. Jim Michael (talk) 18:49, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you said that already, your concern has been noted, and nobody seems to agree with it. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:51, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

You keep saying that, but we are only here about one specific event. Please stop predicting the future. Can you come up with a reason that directs to a policy or a guideline as to why the mosque destruction should not be included? Callmemirela 🍁 19:04, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Because it's not an international event. I'm not trying to predict anything. There have already been many. Jim Michael (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It's internationally relevant per the first criterion of this project. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Prodigy

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Biographies Media, the arts, and architecture When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

I see there has been some scuffling over his inclusion in this article. I would argue he is worth inclusion, since he was part of a successful musical act and met WP:RY at the time of his death, but since there have been like 3 removals and reinsertions of him I'm starting a thread here to gain consensus. Thanks Nohomersryan (talk) 02:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Exclude - he didn't have significant international notability in his own right. Jim Michael (talk) 04:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Include just because he didn't have an article on "nine Wikipedias" at the time of his death, it doesn't mean he wasn't significantly internationally notable in his own right. A lot of good work has gone into the article since its nomination at ITNC so it would be foolhardy to exclude it on such arcane grounds. Plus he's featured on 14 Wikipedias!! And his death has been widely covered, e.g. Australasia, Europe, North America, South America, Asia, Africa etc etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Include - as of the final diff prior to his death, his article was on 13 other languages + Simple English, a clear WP:RYD pass.- OZOO 09:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Include as has been widely covered in sources (as shown by TRM), Being on another Misplaced Pages should have no bearing here and it's quite laughable that anyone would think otherwise - I don't mean to be disrespectful but most of the articles I've come across on foreign Wikipedias are all hopelessly shite (EN being the only project so far that actually cares about its articles) but regardless of all that the rapper was notable so therefore should be included. –Davey2010 13:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this project seems to have deemed "nine appearances on non-English Misplaced Pages" to be the bar for "significant notability"... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:07, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It's difficult to assume good faith when earlier this month you said that he shouldn't be listed on this article. I removed him, now you say that he should be included?! Jim Michael (talk) 17:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It's utterly moronic in every sense of the word, Any clueless plank can create an article on for instance DE Wiki and it would never be deleted because the patrolling is next to none on most if not all projects so this "policy" or whatever you wanna call it is just stupid!. –Davey2010 17:28, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

But you want Prodigy included?! Jim Michael (talk) 17:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, in spite of the "nine Wikipedias" rule, which, as noted, is absurd. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

So why did you suggest that he shouldn't be included? Also, do you really think he's internationally notable as a soloist? Jim Michael (talk) 18:59, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Because his article was junk, and that was before I realised this project doesn't care about article quality at all. And since when does "as a soloist" enter the criteria? Can you point me to that please? And please use "preview", you create so many edit conflicts that it's frustrating. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It's been the consensus for years. Jim Michael (talk) 20:35, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Can you point me to that wording in the criteria please, particularly as we're looking to help our readers understand who and who is not eligible for inclusion in these articles? Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not written in the criteria, but it's been established as consensus after discussions on talk pages of recent year articles. Jim Michael (talk) 20:43, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Aha, so yet another "hidden" rule that neither editors nor readers are aware of. Got it. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

The long-standing editors know. Yes, it should be clarified in the criteria. Jim Michael (talk) 20:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

(a) it doesn't make it right and (b) how do the readers know? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

"The long-standing editors know." - No .... no we don't! - Contrary to popular belief we're not mind readers and nor are the readers of this project, Without sounding disrespectful it really does seem like you're making all this up as you go along ......, Point us to these various discussion ... if you cannot provide links then all of your posts should be ignored entirely. –Davey2010 21:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I mean long-standing editors of RY articles. There are discussions in the talk archives. Jim Michael (talk) 21:11, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Well those editors are somewhat irrelevant. You have new editors and new readers, none of whom are aware of all these hidden criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:42, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

You well know that if you wish the inclusion criteria to be comprehensively described and available to all, you should not be pointing people to "discussions in the talk archives", that's simply not how it works. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:52, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Although I think he should be included, I can't say I see a consensus. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:59, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

... and you shouldn't close a discussion you participated in. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

If you care, re-open the discussion, otherwise it's more heat than light. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:07, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

reopening, then, as clearly an improper closure. Still no consensus, even as to what is being discussed. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Fine, a clear consensus exists, just one person says no, on dubious grounds, while four say yes. Still, why make a decision when more heat can be generated, Arthur Rubin, standard admin behaviour. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:13, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

TRM, you've changed your mind on whether or not to include him, you prematurely closed as discussion in which you were involved and you're continuing your patronising sniping. That's against the rules and far from civil. My reasoning is that he doesn't have significant solo international notability - which is the consensus for including deaths. Jim Michael (talk) 22:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Jim, remember what I said, he shouldn't have been included when his article was junk. It isn't now. And besides, the article more than meets this project's criteria. The discussion (with four people in favour of his inclusion against your singular opposition) was wasting time, and no, there's no "patronising sniping", there's just a real need for you to start answering questions properly, that's not "against the rules", and nothing to do with civility. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. where in the criteria does it mention "solo notability"? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:28, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude - I read the article Prodigy (rapper) and Prodigy discography. Honestly, this rapper (should have added quotation marks, but whatever) hasn't done much significance to be included in the "2017" page. The impact was... too regional in contrast to other past rappers like Tupac Shakur whose careers were significant internationally. Prodigy's death is already adequate in 2017 in the United States, so I don't know why else his death should be mentioned in the "2017" page. I don't see also why readers should be given an entry about the death of a rapper other than to encourage readers to become editors or to reflect what press outlets do to their own audiences. Misplaced Pages readers interested in what happened in the US this year can go to the other page. Those interested in searching for the whole year itself can be shown a sidebox and other entries. Meanwhile, no offense to African Americans, but there are already others like Chuck Berry and René Préval, both more significant than Prodgy. --George Ho (talk) 00:45, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Err...I don't think there is a limit on the amount of black people we can have on the list. Nohomersryan (talk) 01:04, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
    • Oops, sorry. I shouldn't have implied discrimination. I don't know which part to strike out, so I'll rephrase: Why including Prodigy (rapper) other than he's dead and to match the media outlets' coverage of his death? I don't see how impactful Prodigy was in his lifetime. Has he made any significant works? Also, we already have selected whoever is significant at this point. Why add more from other past months? Well, the whole year is incomplete because we've not past the future months of the year, so there will be more significant events and deaths of significant personalities this year. --George Ho (talk) 01:15, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
    • Nohomersryan, may you or I add the RFC tag then? This needs more attention. George Ho (talk) 03:15, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead with an RfC. Jim Michael (talk) 03:26, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Added the RFC tag. --George Ho (talk) 03:42, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Include (Summoned by bot) But lets get rid of that 9 Wikipedias rule, per the above. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 14:03, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Cholera in Yemen

This entry has been removed by Jim Michael. It's an internationally notable event cited by the United Nations. It passes the "three continents" test. It should be included. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

We even have a good article on it, 2016–17 Yemen cholera outbreak, which is currently featured from the main page and is getting tens of thousands of hits. It's hardly a Kim Kardashian wedding or selfie, but it's important and should be included. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It has to affect multiple countries for it to be an international event. The UN mention many domestic events. Media coverage doesn't mean it's internationally important. Jim Michael (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

No it doesn't. The criteria allow for it to be posted if it's reported in three continents. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:57, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Here you go: New events added must receive independent news reporting from three continents on the event. This is a minimum requirement for inclusion.. This one has such coverage. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Disasters have to be of global or near-global significance - which this isn't. Jim Michael (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

No, this isn't a "disaster", this is an outbreak of a disease. And look at this! The Saudis have given loadsamoney to Yemen to help with the effort in defeating it. A truly international story! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Which is a type of disaster. It's very common for other countries to give aid to a country that's suffering a major problem - whether it be natural, man-made or a combination. Jim Michael (talk) 19:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Are you saying the three continent rule is a waste of time? You've dismissed it at least twice now. What's its purpose if all you and the others here do is say it's not good enough for posting anything? You all bring out "other criteria" on top of it, some real, some from the dark depths of talk pages etc. This is international in significance and should be included. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

• Include per clear international significance and notability. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It's on WP:RY, not the archives. 3CR is only one of the criteria, it's not enough on its own. Jim Michael (talk) 19:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't say that. You know that, why are you making criteria up? I already asked you that last night. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It does - the 3CR is a subheading of the Events section. Jim Michael (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Lawyering now? It says clearly it's the minimum inclusion criterion. And it's been met. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

• Also, it's very unusual for a country at war with another country to provide funds for the other via the WHO. So this is a shoo-in for inclusion here, right? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

No, it's one of the criteria. Saudi Arabia giving aid may be motivated by wanting to prevent it spreading there, but it's still not an international event. Disease outbreaks are common. Jim Michael (talk) 21:57, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It's the minimum criterion required for inclusion, so it passes, so it can be included. Nothing you've said works against it. You keep mentioning "common" things, yet if they're so common, why are tomes like The New York Times covering them? Why would our community vote in favour of seeing it on the main page? I'm beginning to get the feeling that there's a real ownership issue here which will need serious external work to alleviate. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:00, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Show me the last disease outbreak which affected 200,000 people in a single country yet was funded by another country and an international organisation to help remedy it please. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

There is presently no claim of international notibility in 2017. If there is a country, nominally at war with Yemen, supplying aid, I'd support that as being internationally notable. Much less than that, probably not. Disasters of any sort bring international aid. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:08, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Presumably you're aware that Saudi are at war with Yemen yet have offered millions of dollars of aid? I don't follow your logic at all, but then this page is full of that kind of thing right now. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

So add that to the text. As I said, the "stable" text has no claim of international notibility or importance. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:14, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Ah, so you didn't know the whole story. Ok. Perhaps that's why this project is failing, too many kneejerk reversions and claims of failure to meet hidden criteria. Next time let's all look at the story in more detail, like those of us who work on ITN articles for instance, where we may stand a chance of grasping the bigger picture. P.S. you didn't use the word "stable" once, so who knows what you're talking about... And why should this blurb be any different? Other 2017 blurbs offer no insight as to why this project has deemed them acceptable, there's no reason to single this one out, just because you didn't grasp its significance. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Individual outbreaks (especially those in rural Africa) often don't receive much media coverage or have WP articles. Jim Michael (talk) 22:29, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Please show me the last disease outbreak which affected 200,000 people in a single country yet was funded by another country and an international organisation to help remedy it. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:30, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know how many were infected in other outbreaks, but even a high death toll isn't part of the inclusion criteria. There have certainly been many outbreaks which have prompted aid from other countries and international organisations. Jim Michael (talk) 22:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

So this is a significant, internationally noted incident which passes the minimum criteria easily, and even some of those mystery ones you keep pulling out of the archives. It should be included. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:49, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

How is this remotely in question? Two hundred thousand people infected. The WHO calls it the world's largest cholera outbreak. It's been reported on every continent with permanent settlement, as far as I am aware. Seriously, there's isn't even an argument for exclusion here. Vanamonde (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

A quick glance through this talk page and at WT:RY will demonstrate the complete and utter confusion and disarray here. A handful of "regulars" run the place and others who aren't aware of the all the unwritten consensuses tucked away on various talkpages dating back a decade are just hung out to dry. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:16, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

@TRM: noted. Doesn't make this argument any less silly, though, does it. Jim Michael; if you think that by pointing out that epidemics in Africa are neglected, and by spending your efforts trying to minimize the coverage given to other epidemics, that you are somehow addressing systemic bias, disillusion yourself; you are not. Vanamonde (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Internationally noted isn't the same as internationally notable. An outbreak that's confined to one country is a domestic event. Jim Michael (talk) 21:34, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with what Vanamonde93 said: It doesn't make TRM's argument any less silly. The proposed text doesn't indicate international notability. If Saudi Arabia really is at war with Yemen, and they are supplying aid, that might indicate international notability. (Come to think of it, the US supplied "humanitarian aid" to parts of Yugoslavia while NATO was essentially at war with it.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:22, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

As already noted, text of other items does not "indicate international notability", the links to the stories do that. This is internationally notable, as the UN identified the problem in Yemen and Saudi are supplying millions of dollars of aid despite being at war with them. If none of you can see that, or be bothered to do anything about it, it's up to you, but it truly shows the ownership issues with this project. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:00, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Please indicate which events do not indicate international notability in the text, and I'll see whether I would recommend rewrite or removal. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:57, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

That you are unaware of the international notability of this is irrelevant. Surprising, but irrelevant. I'm not interested at all in your recommendations, this should be community-driven, so either change the criteria to ensure that blurbs are so explicit that even someone with absolutely no knowledge can acknowledge the "nine Misplaced Pages notability criterion" or accept the fact that we don't all assume our readers are complete fools. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The nine non-English WP articles requirement is for deaths, not events. Jim Michael (talk) 21:54, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Uh-huh, so this one passes by a country mile and can be added. Thank goodness. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

It matters not, it's there which is the most important thing. We should now spend our time on the principles of this project, not the specific items. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:59, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The article still doesn't assert international notability. Aid from other countries and from international organisations is commonplace in response to various disasters. Jim Michael (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

It's there, and that's all that matters now, regardless of the whacky rules here. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:21, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

No, all that's in the article is mention of international orgs - who routinely help when there's been a disease outbreak, earthquake, flood famine etc. (even if the disaster is limited to one country). Jim Michael (talk) 22:28, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

But you know that "all that's in the article" isn't relevant, that's why you allow the "nine Misplaced Pages rule" for deaths, because you assume that what's in other articles isn't complete, comprehensive, or even reliably sourced. I've even gone to the extent to edit the article to include this highly profile detail, something which your ongoing "denial" has embarrassed the entire project. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not assuming or denying anything. Jim Michael (talk) 19:28, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

So let's see what the RFCs bring, right now it's "RY regulars" v "Normal community" and the scores are tied! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 30 June 2017

It is requested that an edit be made to the fully protected article at 2017. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, so that an editor unfamiliar with the subject matter could complete the requested edit immediately. Edit requests to fully protected pages should only be used for edits that are either uncontroversial or supported by consensus. If the proposed edit might be controversial, discuss it on the protected page's talk page before using this template. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request. When the request has been completed or denied, please add the |answered=yes parameter to deactivate the template.

May I please add a photograph of Michael Nyqvist Sincerely, Canadian Wikilover CanadianWikilover (talk) 04:03, 30 June 2017 (UTC) CanadianWikilover (talk) 04:03, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Please indicate the precise text you want to add. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

No, the request was to add a "photo" of Nyqvist, not some "text". Please, if you keep making such boilerplate responses, it's better to let someone else do it. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Straighten something up

So, the project consigns global events like the Academy Awards to the "Year in film" article, yet many actors who are listed in the "Year in film" article are eligible to be listed here (and at Deaths in 2017.... etc)? If these globally notable events are tucked into the film sub-page, why not the individuals? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:04, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Wrong forum (should be WT:RY), but I think we should further restrict the listings of births and deaths, rather than relaxing the criteria for events. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:52, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, we do currently list a lot of actors who have little or no international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 21:51, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

So why aren't you doing something about that? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I can't - the article is fully protected and I'm not an admin. Jim Michael (talk) 22:27, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Discussion of guidelines should be in WP:RY. However, that is impossible while TRM is trying to redefine clearly written, existing terms, in WP:RY. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 30 June 2017

It is requested that an edit be made to the fully protected article at 2017. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, so that an editor unfamiliar with the subject matter could complete the requested edit immediately. Edit requests to fully protected pages should only be used for edits that are either uncontroversial or supported by consensus. If the proposed edit might be controversial, discuss it on the protected page's talk page before using this template. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request. When the request has been completed or denied, please add the |answered=yes parameter to deactivate the template.

Can you add in Simone Veil? Gar (talk) 16:01, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Please propose the precise text, and an uninvolved admin will consider it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:53, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Ridiculous, per the current inclusion criteria, this individual has died and is currently a shoo-in for inclusion. Please start doing this properly. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Eligible for inclusion, as she had been the President of the European Parliament. Jim Michael (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Events in May and June 2017

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Media, the arts, and architecture Religion and philosophy Society, sports, and culture Politics, government, and law Maths, science, and technology Economy, trade, and companies When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Which events that happened in May 2017 and June 2017 should be added in the "2017" page? --George Ho (talk) 03:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

2017 Manchester Arena bombing (RfC)

Should the "2017 Manchester Arena bombing" (22 May) entry be included or excluded? --George Ho (talk) 03:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• I've already weighed in, but Exclude. It's unfortunate, but it's not particularly important among terrorist acts. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:34, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude this domestic event. Jim Michael (talk) 04:57, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude, as per above. — Yerpo 05:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include bombing at an international artist's concert in Manchester killing people of multiple nationalities, followed by a global fund-raiser and multiple reliable source coverage on at least five continents. Either we're playing by the criteria or we're not. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:52, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Inlcude per TRM. Callmemirela 🍁 14:39, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Inlcude Despite being biased because of my article contributions, this is clearly one of the key events in Britain so far this year, along with the Grenfell Tower fire.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

No-one's disputing that, but this is 2017 - not 2017 in the United Kingdom. Jim Michael (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

And no-one's disputing that is indeed an international event. Now, you've all had your "exclude" votes here and there, without anyone badgering you, I suggest you do the same. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

That's untrue - you can clearly see that some other people in this discussion and in the one above have agreed with me. Stop making false assertions. Jim Michael (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

It's an international event, full stop. And it meets the current criteria for inclusion, so I fail to see how this is even being discussed. Is it that the "regulars" don't like it while the non-regulars don't see the sense in the current position? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

No, it's that the regulars are usually better at knowing, understanding and interpreting the guidelines and criteria. Jim Michael (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Sure! And that's clearly not what the rest of the community believes this "project" should be doing! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

It is clearly NOT an international event. I don't see how anyone could think it is. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

This is becoming bogged down in a debate about what an "international event" is. If the definition is "an event in which people in multiple countries will be interested in hearing about in x years' time, then the 2017 Manchester Arena bombing and the Grenfell Tower fire both qualify by a wide margin.--♦IanMacM♦ 16:02, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

• Include. Certainly one of the most high-profile terrorist attacks of the year to date, with a great volume of coverage spanning the globe. The suggestion that this event is somehow not significant because it mainly impacted only one country is both incorrect (the consequences clearly were felt by populations around the world, and commented upon at length by their political leaders and news media, and led to one of the year's most highly publicized public events, as noted by TRM above) and also peculiar--terrorist attacks by their very nature almost always target a specific local, but even if the damage were incredibly isolated (let's say, killed only civilians from one nation), that does not per se mean the event failed to hit a given threshold of significance. Clearly, in an article like this, that determination ought to be made on the basis of the WP:WEIGHT this event commands amongst sources commented upon current affairs. By that policy-based measure, I think inclusion here is a borderline-WP:SNOW call. Snow 21:08, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include scope_creep (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: I strongly support the inclusion of this event. However, if this is the only terrorist attack listed in the article, that reeks of systemic bias, considering that there have been many other significant terrorist attacks this year. -- Irn (talk) 14:44, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Destruction of the Great Mosque of al-Nuri (Mosul)

Should the entry about destruction of the Great Mosque of al-Nuri in Mosul, Iraq (21 June) be included or excluded? --George Ho (talk) 03:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude. One of many historic mosques destroyed by ISIS. If something new comes of it, such as censure by the religious leaders of Iran, it might be appropriate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:52, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude this domestic event. Jim Michael (talk) 04:57, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude, nothing that would set this apart from other minor events in the ISIS rampage. — Yerpo 05:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include but include its destruction and its capture — The overlap of historical notability of the mosque, symbolic notability (ISIS destroyed the place where they proclaimed their caliphate), and its role as a key event in the ongoing battle of Mosul suggests an unusual notability. US is involved per ISIS' accusation of their culpability. An explainer on the mosque's importance by the BBC suggests it's not quest "one of many historic mosques". Independent coverage comes from four continents (Europe, North America, north Africa, and west Asia).--Carwil (talk) 07:07, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include obviously per Carwil's notes, this complies satisfactorily with all the project's current criteria for inclusion (as a minimum) and has received global coverage as an international loss of architecture, covered widely on many continents in reliable sources. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:54, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include per Carwill and TRM. Callmemirela 🍁 14:40, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include. As noted, this is not just any mosque, and this information can be easily coupled with other coverage of ISIS-oriented events in this article, particularly its general reversal of fortunes/loss of territory and the increasingly volatile responses. Snow 21:13, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Nor was it an especially important mosque. Jim Michael (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Jim, stop now. We know your position, you don't need to argue ad infinitum in its favour, it won't help. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

If you say so. It's an 850-year-old heritage site that is deeply connected with one of the most famous Muslim military leaders of all time. And even if it had been of relatively modern construction and relevance, there is the still the massive symbolic significance it has inured as the location from which ISIS declared its creation of a "caliphate", and the representative role it has taken on since--something that can be cited to literally hundreds of WP:reliable sources. But really, neither your nor my personal idiosyncratic views on the relevance of the monument itself matter here; the event of the monument's destruction is itself clearly a matter of substantial significance, as judged by breadth of coverage and the deep meaning being attached to it, at both the regional and international level. Snow 23:06, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Include. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include It is a 12th century artifact, hanging around for more than 800 years, then those ur-men destroyed it. scope_creep (talk)
• Include Historic significance that will be worth noting in years to come.--♦IanMacM♦ 09:29, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include - Per Carwil, The Rambling Man, and Snow Rise. -- Irn (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

WHO's estimate of Cholera outbreak in Yemen

Should the entry about World Health Organization (WHO)'s estimate of infection cases involving 2016–17 Yemen cholera outbreak be included or excluded? --George Ho (talk) 03:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude, for now. If something internationally notable happens because of it, I would go for inclusion. It has been claimed that (1) Saudi Arabia is at war with Yemen, and (2) Saudi Arabia has supplied a significant amount of support. If _we_ could say that (meaning a single reliable source for both (1) and (2)), I might lean toward inclusion. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:52, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude this domestic event. Jim Michael (talk) 04:57, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Leaning towards include because of severity which makes it stand out on the international scale. The Saudi offer of aid should be understood in the context of the ongoing war and is probably cynical (as propaganda effort, knowing that Yemen could never accept), so this is IMO not really an expression of international importance. — Yerpo 05:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include as announced by the United Nations, and as already discussed, with Saudi (who are currently bombing Yemen daily) offering tens of millions of dollars of aid. Making predictions into these kinds of acts is not a role that should be undertaken by Wikipedians, we stick with reliable sources (on most other parts of the projects). Global coverage. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Note: predictions is all we have until Yemen either accepts or rejects the offer. In any case, the offer is not an expression of any international significance unless something comes out of it. — Yerpo 17:22, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Indeed - and there's still nothing in the article about aid from Saudi. Jim Michael (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

It's there now, and since it's via WHO and UNICEF, your concerns are not really relevant. Now stop badgering those with whom you don't agree. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not badgering anyone - I'm replying in a civil matter. Jim Michael (talk) 19:26, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Say no more. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Include. Coverage is significant even at this stage (and unsurprising, given the scale of the event and its context), and details of the ultimate fallout are likely to grow the story even further. (I do not consider this a WP:CRYSTAL call, insofar as I think the coverage is already significant enough for inclusion--I merely note that this story is only likely to continue to feed into others of global importance). Snow 21:18, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Why? This is not a WP:VOTE. — Yerpo 06:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include scope_creep (talk) 01:58, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Why? This is not a WP:VOTE. — Yerpo 06:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include - Per The Rambling Man and Snow Rise. -- Irn (talk) 14:29, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

2017 cyberattacks on Ukraine

• 2017 cyberattacks on Ukraine, perhaps? They are believed to have originated abroad and have hit international corporations too. — Yerpo 05:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I modified the proposal for you, Yerpo. --George Ho (talk) 05:14, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I tend toward exclude on this one, at least at present time; the coverage has been skimpy outside regional press, even when compared against other cybersecurity news. It is a developing story though, so I'm reserving my ultimate call on it. Snow 21:21, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Include. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Why? This is not a WP:VOTE. — Yerpo 06:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
• Include scope_creep (talk) 01:57, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Why? This is not a WP:VOTE. — Yerpo 06:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

(Copy, paste, and modify this subheader to suggest any other event)

Threaded discussion

• Looks like the project "regulars" all vote inline with their collective beliefs that their project is currently precisely correct, while those of us who come at it cold and try to understand the arcane inclusion criteria have very different views. This RFC is going to prove to be a very useful case study when it comes to unravelling the currently nonsensical inclusion criteria when an RFC is placed against the project as a whole. What seems to me to be the primary and unforgivable flaw is that our readers have no idea what this super-selective list of events is, especially versus such a broad array of deaths, and with no quality of any of it considered at all. All responses from "regulars" amount to "well it's in the archives" or "well read the edit notice" or similar. Pity our audience. Regardless of the outcome of these individual items, we now have enough momentum to bring this project to the attention of the wider community, and for that I am very grateful. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, I don't want to add fuel to fire, as I'm not sure a broad-ranging debate is necessary here (but maybe I am unaware of some previous major disputes in this area), but the relevant guidance is available at WP:Advice pages; by long-standing, consistent, and overwhelmingly broad community consensus (which has been further codified by ArbCom in multiple cases), WikiProjects are banned from creating idiosyncratic editing standards (not otherwise found in broader community policy) and then trying to enforce them on pages perceived to be within their purview. Doing so is considered WP:disruptive and contrary to several pillar policies. Editors for each individual article (whether they are aligned with a given WikiProject or not) must engage in the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS process using actual editorial policies and guidelines on a case-by-case basis, and cannot utilize arguments such as "well we decided it shall be done this way, so that governs here". If that is what is going on here (I see no particularly strong evidence of it, but this is my first involvement on a contemporary year article, that I can recall) then this is less a matter for getting greater community consensus (the community has already spoken on this principle, ad nauseum) and more a behavioural issue that needs to be addressed. Of course, there is nothing stopping the editors of the WikiProject from trying to enshrine their "sensible" approach in actual policy and/or style guidelines through the WP:PROPOSAL/policy adjustment processes, but they are not allowed to skip that vital community consensus process and go straight to "this is the way it is going to be, because this article is in our domain!" Snow 22:36, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that's quite what's going on here. The relevant guideline is WP:RY. The problem stems from interpreting the guideline. There is a small handful of editors with a shared interpretation of the guidelines who also dedicate the most time and energy to these pages. As such, their interpretation has become the dominant one and the one that ultimately determines what is in these pages. Additionally, I think a lot of users, like The Rambling Man, come here and find themselves frustrated by this interpretation, fight against it, lose, and then, unlike TRM, leave feeling frustrated. TRM chose to continue fighting, and that's the only reason we're having this conversation right now. I think it might be useful to take this opportunity to discuss how we ought to interpret the guideline (in particular, what is meant by “international significance”). -- Irn (talk) 14:25, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

• All four events currently listed appear to be major events of international significance. Unless we are limited in space, I suggest including all four. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Yerpo, WP:VOTE has been downgraded from guideline to essay several years ago. Why still using it? George Ho (talk) 06:34, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Because it's relevant. Wikilawyering doesn't change that. — Yerpo 06:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:BADGER. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:22, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me for being blunt, but if you always tend to confuse civil discussion with badgering like that, then perhaps you should think about whether Misplaced Pages is a right place for you... We need to establish consensus because there is no authority who will close this discussion and implement the result, and drive-by voters contribute nothing useful to this. On the contrary. — Yerpo 07:35, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Excused. Repeatedly asking the same questions of the same voters can only be interpreted one way I'm afraid. You need to consider whether this is something you'd like to continue. And well done for accusing those who are voting here in good faith of being "drive-by voters" who "contribute nothing useful to this". You should read WP:AGF before you go. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I was, of course, referring to unexplained votes by people who were never involved in the topic at hand. Drive-by is a well-established euphemism for those and that they contribute nothing useful to the discussion is a fact - regardless of their intentions. So a cheap trick, invoking AGF here. — Yerpo 08:34, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Your words, not mine. Now then, I'd suggest you leave others to work on this. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:38, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:BADGER and WP:BULLY are excellent descriptions of 'your actions, TRM. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Coming from a rogue admin, I'll treat that with the respect it deserves..... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

You were a rogue admin. You are apparently still a rogue. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:15, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

You seem proud. Remember what happens next. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Also, this RfC is insufficiently advertised to suggest changes in WP:RY. Even if consensus is obtained to add these events, it only applies to these events. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. Look at the last time the "guideline" was discussed. We already have a bucket-load more interaction here from sane-thinking individuals. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

• List-Class Years articles
• Mid-importance Years articles
• List-Class Years articles of Mid-importance
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment
• Misplaced Pages fully protected edit requests
• Misplaced Pages edit requests possibly using incorrect templates