Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:40, 5 October 2006

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

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Spoken Misplaced Pages

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This talk page is getting really excessive...

The amount of activity on this talk page in the last couple weeks has been rather excessive to say the least. Since at least some of these are the result of content disputes being dragged to this talk page, I propose we put a notice of some sort at the top of the page saying that this is not the place for the discussion of individual content disputes, but rather the policy itself. --tjstrf 23:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This is typical when individuals with personal agendas try to shape policy to better accommodate their views. If an individual or faction repeatedly hammers away at a proposed but rejected change to the point of taking over discussions on other topics and thus the page, it will at that point be obviously disruptive. Such single-minded yammering then can be removed to a subpage or a user's talk page. Should they continue to disrupt this page there's always RFC. FeloniousMonk 18:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've archived the page. The previous major discussion was fruitless and getting disruptive. FeloniousMonk 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Excessive and disruptive. How? It seems that some folks actually were beginning to see that certain administrators and editors have been gaming the system for too long, and the need to mandate neutral, non-polemical language was making certain folks uncomfortable.

The Wikilawyering and misuse of the NPOV rule has been the issue.

The NPOV rule needs plain language to prevent admins/editors with visible agendas from gaming the system, and using their power to make the rule meaningless. Let's allow the system to work, instead of resorting to personal attacks against well-meaning individuals whose views make certain people ::feel threatened.

I appeal to the Misplaced Pages community to make the NPOV rule all that it should be, guaranteeing that even the most controversial figures and movements are treated fairly and non-polemically.

If neutrality doesn't mean what it says, then it's meaningless. Opinions in content are unavoidable no matter who includes the material, but slant and bias in included POV and language nullify the NPOV rule. Plain language is needed to keep the unscrupulous from gaming the system and undermining it.

--Pravknight 21:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You are forgetting the official policy of WP:AGF. We assume the good faith of our editors, admins and bureacrats. Your comment above about "visible agendas", "gaming the system", "using their powers", "resorting to personal attacks" etc. is specious unless you have specific cases that you want to bring to the attention of the community (via the proper channels of dispute resolution, please). As for your concerns about living people being treated fairly in articles, see WP:BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You may want to see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Pravknight. He's been trying to reshape policy ever since. FeloniousMonk 22:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

What's so wrong with wanting to make Misplaced Pages a better more credible place? Let's stop these personal attacks and discuss policy not personalities. Why are you so threatened by my desire to make Misplaced Pages more, professional, fair and balanced? I follow the rules based upon what I read, then you delete verifiable, sourced material when it disagrees with your agenda, such as where you said that my post undermines your opinion that Dominionism is a threat.

This is supposed to be an encyclopedia where people aren't supposed to have any agendas whatsoever.

Let's discuss the merits of policy here, and not engage in personal attacks.--Pravknight 23:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"This is supposed to be an encyclopedia where people aren't supposed to have any agendas whatsoever" Sure, let us know when you're ready to start.

"Let's discuss the merits of policy here" This page isn't for discussion of "the merits of policy," but for earnest talk on adjustments and corrections. So far you've made no specific suggestions, other than the one you made at your RFC, "I vote for changing NPOV to LPOV=Left-wing points of view only. At least the policy would be honest." Do we really need to be discussing that one?

Another policy, WP:AGF requires me to "Assume that others are trying to help Misplaced Pages rather than harm it...". But it follows this enjoinder up with " ...unless there is clear and present evidence to the contrary." And documented in the evidence at your RFC, there's ample clear and present evidence to the contrary, hence my concern over your participation here, which others endorsing there share. FeloniousMonk 17:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

On the point, "let the policy and guidelines use plain language", I completely agree. If we can make it so obvious that a policy would be hard to misunderstand, we will have gone a great distance toward reducing policy discussion. Simple phrases that editors can quote to support their edits would be helpful. Clean definitions instead of erudite, hot air wiki-speak, common uses of common words will save us all a lot of discussion. Terryeo 16:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The policy is already in plain English and easy to understand. What's attributed to a lack of clarity can usually be better explained by a lack of thorough reading or a want of honesty. I've been watching and participating at this page for over two years, and during that time the pattern I've seen is that those who repeatedly hammer away at this policy claiming it needs to the reformulated have largely those seeking to promote a particular viewpoint or campaign. Arguments made by our RFC'd friend here are a case in point. Most claims of this policy being unclear are simply transparent attempts to weaken or alter the policy to its detriment. Successful, credible long term contributors to the project already find this policy plainly obvious and hard to misunderstand. Of course, that has a lot of explanatory power for why they are successful over the long term. FeloniousMonk 17:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Monk, I would never agree to it being reformulated. But I do think it could be made more clear. For example, NPOV clearly states that any information used in Misplaced Pages must have been published, i.e. "all significant published points of view are to be presented". I have gotten into huge and ongoing disagreements over this trivial point. A point of view was unpublished, but an editor had a copy of it. I certainly don't want reformulation. But I do think it could be written for better understanding. I would present the word "published" very early and present it in the nutshell and present it often. I think problems happen because the most basic concepts are not clearly grasped. Terryeo 18:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

And in the instance you are referring to Terryeo, you kept attempting to force your own POV definition of "publish" into the discussion instead of the common dictionary definition. --Fahrenheit451 02:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I remember that discussion well, F. The Church published a book which I quoted, citing the page number, ISBN, etc. and you didn't have a copy of it. It says "lecture xyz is unpublished". You didn't have a copy of the hardbound, but had a copy of the softbound which doesn't have that chapter in it. So therefore, my information was a "FORCE !" and not a normal, good faith citation. Right, I follow your reasoning. Then my quotations and links to dictionarys too were typed onto the page with FORCE ! right, I follow your reasoning. Terryeo 08:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

---

I note in the above discussion, the preponderance of ad hominem fallacy rather than addressing the soundness of what the editor has written--a pattern displayed by many of the various differences of opinion above. I also note the repeated reference to WP:AGF--which judging from its use on all sides above is so ambiguously and poorly written that even explicit quotes from WP:AGF policy are used above to stifle good problem-solving ideas both by the 1) consensus editors and by those 2) who criticize the consensus position. Here again, the underlying flaw in Misplaced Pages policy (WP:NPOV, WP:AGF, . . . ) is that the minority view has no safe harbor for discussing--even on TalkPages--very concrete suggestions for improving the Misplaced Pages policy text without being hounded from the discussion by the tactics of the localized consensus faction. So how do we fix these serious flaws in Misplaced Pages policy text? Where--even--can serious discussions for improving Misplaced Pages policy text occur without the localized consensus faction breaking up the discussion? --Rednblu 17:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

One problem is cliques (or maybe even sockpuppets) acting in concert to intimidate dissenters, particularly on the policy pages. There is at least one such operating here. No point in naming names, you know who you are.

A favorite technique is to allege a concensus and pretend the pesky dissenter is antisocial and a definite menace to society for not agreeing with their particular POV. Some of their techniques are pretty sophisticated, if you know the game. E.g., "Good-Guy, Bad Guy", where one of the clique will pretend to befriend the pest to get him to agree with their artifactual "concensus". Another is to simply gang up until the dissentor goes away. It helps if you have a lot of time on your hands. Interestingly, Misplaced Pages:concensus recognizes the possibility of such concerted actions and specifically states that a decision reached by such means is "Not a concensus". Pproctor 22:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Well said. You point to the high noise factor in the room. But the challenge, it seems to me, is to develop some team work--even in the high noise--for devising some clear and self-consistent wording for Misplaced Pages policy, such as WP:NPOV. I am thinking there may be some opportunity to write some good clear advice for those that the consensus calls "cranks". The advice might go something like the following.

• If the consensus repeatedly calls you a "crank," you have an increased duty to follow WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:V, and WP:RS even when you think the consensus flagrantly violates all rules. If you really do have something important to say and the consensus keeps calling you a "crank," then you must take responsibility and have compassion for the long and arduous learning it will take for the consensus to understand the WP:V and WP:RS that you present.

Something like that. I see too many good people go up the wall, as above--just because of the high noise factor in the room. What do you think? --Rednblu 07:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:sock puppetry sez re cliques: "It is considered highly inappropriate or unacceptable to advertise Misplaced Pages articles that are being debated in order to attract users with known views and bias, in order to strengthen one side of a debate. It is also considered highly inappropriate to ask friends or family members to create accounts for the purpose of giving additional support. Advertising or soliciting meatpuppet activity is not an acceptable practice on Misplaced Pages. On-Misplaced Pages canvassing should be reverted if possible." Not that this ever slowed anybody Pproctor 01:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

---

I am curious. What do you think is the greatest difficulty with the policy text, such as WP:NPOV text: 1) the parked "owners" of the page, such as by the mechanisms you note, or 2) the inherent difficulty of designing a clear system, or 3) something else? What do you think? --Rednblu 04:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The biggest problem with the page is probably that very few people think to demonstrate a specific need for or benefit to the changes they propose. --tjstrf 04:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think that is right. But I would add that when people do post "examples" those examples are far removed from the issue that prompts them to come to this page in the first place. Not every time, but pretty often. Terryeo 12:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Appropriate Weight" loophole

"This article is about fruit, except strawberries". Does that violate any WP policies? Fourtildas 04:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean to ask. It is all about applied good sense, really. These many discussions and modifications are really about arriving at agreements which are just good sense, that everyone can apply, ideally, that everyone understands immediately and without difficulty. Terryeo 06:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

We are supposed to give appropriate weight to all aspects of the topic/subject. But if I don't want to give appropriate weight to strawberries, can I arbitrarily exclude them from the topic of "Fruit"? I could give many examples of this ploy being used in WP articles. Often the topic is not explicitly stated, or is stated in a vague and ambiguous way so it is impossible to judge whether it "gives appropriate weight to all aspects of the topic". (This is a bad example since strawberries aren't really fruit).

For example, "This article is about the country X, but excluding the aboriginal people who formerly inhabited the territory of X". There are such articles in WP. Fourtildas 05:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You're bringing up USA again? That decision is necessary for stylistic reasons. As I mentioned last time, America is almost the size of Europe. Covering the history of all notable American Indian tribes in the USA article makes as much sense as covering the history of all notable European ethnic groups in the main Europe article. --tjstrf 08:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Making necessary assumptions

Currently the section on the FAQ says:

• What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?

No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also in philosophy, history, physics, etc.

It is difficult to draw up general principles on which to rule in specific cases, but the following might help: there is probably not a good reason to discuss some assumption on a given page, if an assumption is best discussed in depth on some other page. Some brief, unobtrusive pointer might be apropos, however. E.g., in an article about the evolutionary development of horses, we might have one brief sentence to the effect that some creationists do not believe that horses (or any other animals) underwent any evolution, and point the reader to the relevant article. If there is much specific argument over some particular point, it might be placed on a special page of its own.

Should it say some thing like:

• What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?

Misplaced Pages policy is verifiability, not truth WP:V. If an assumption is made, it is helpful to express it. If the assumption is expressed, it is less likely that a statement will be actively contested, compared with saying something occured and not expressing the assumption. E.g., "according to evolutionary theory, the cow came into existence approximately....etc.". If necessary, several viewpoints based on different assumptions can be mentioned in this manner while retaining a neutral point of view. Remember: "Let the facts speak for themselves." In certain cases of popular non-scholarly consensus (basically most people believe something occurred) with dissident on the part of some but not all scholars, it may be helpful to give the popular consensus first (attributing it as "popular"), followed by an "if not": e.g.,"So-and-so is popularly attributed with inventing the gadget (or finding the thing or accomplishing the feat)... If this was not the case, it has been speculated that...."

In the case of a majority of consensus of scholarship on a given point, it is helpful to identify this consensus. E.g., in an article about the origin of an specific animal, the article would explain that the majority of biologists (or other scholars) have concluded (or believe, or profess, or teach, or publicly hold) that the approximate origin of a certain species was approximately ____ million years ago. In this case, it is unnecessary to explain creationist or religious views of the origin of an animal (views which can be explained on articles about creationist and religious theory) unless it specifically applies to that animal (such as with a cow, the Christian origin would be unnecessary, but if the Hindu origin was that cows were the original rulers of the earth before humans, this would be significant--I doubt Hindus believe that but hopefully you get the point). It also makes it unnecessary to engage in a controversy as to the precise date among scholars (in the case of the evolution of an animal species, precise dates as to the origin of a species would be rare) unless it is necessary to make such a delineation. Although the actual origin of an animal may be contested (any references Misplaced Pages can use were only written within the past 10,000 years at most), it is highly unlikely that the fact that there is a "majority consensus of scholars" on a topic will be disputed unless there is a significant number of scholars who believe (or profess, teach, etc.) otherwise. In this case it may be important to include this different scholarly viewpoint. If this is done, it may be helpful to include the approximate percentages of scholars who hold such a view (such as: at the US National Council of Biology in May of 2005, a poll of 4000 of the leading biologists was conducted in which 74% of biologists attending professed that the cow and the horse were more closely related by evolution than the horse and the giraffe, 19% professed that the giraffe and horse were more closely related by evolution than the horse and cow, and 7% professed that that all three species were of equal evolutionary distance from one another--this is not the true, but just an example for lack of another right now).

I did an awful job of it (and I would never want this used in its current form!) I will check back later.JBogdan 12:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that a large expose about another policy belongs in this policy. Apart of that, I think that you're right that reference must be made to WP:V. Harald88 21:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

should we be prefer the information from "secondary" sources over that of "primary" sources?

Recently the following sentence was added to WP:NOR:

Articles which draw predominantly on primary sources are generally discouraged, in favor of articles based predominantly on secondary sources

IMO that sentence not only doesn't belong there as it even may cause conflict with WP:NPOV as well as WP:V. Please comment on its Talk page

I have a hard time taking this subtle distinction seriously, since so many "sources" quoted in WP are the opinionated ramblings of "Some guy on the internet" - the reader has no way of knowing even if they are fact or fiction. I don't understand why we don't require peer reviewed sources. Give an example of something that can't make it into the peer reviewed literature but should be in WP. All that garbage that "some people believe", I guess. Fourtildas 06:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You may want to read the NOR policy (WP:NOR)on that: no rambling internet guys are allowed as source on Misplaced Pages, except of course to verify (WP:V} a relevant claim about the existence of such sources.

IOW, that is moot, beside the point. Harald88 20:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

well, Fourtildas, I think you're right. I think that WP:V or WP:RS should develop a priority of reference, spelling out from strongly preferred to weakly allowed to borderline and finally, "below our reliablility threshold". Of course peer reviewed would be well up such a list and all of our articles would gravitate toward those kind of sources. But without such a list, it is all hit and miss, cut and poke (or whatever you call it). Terryeo 03:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

That's already well explained in the policies, see above. Harald88 20:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't need "such a list". The academic world operates on a few simple principles. I will think for a few weeks and explain what they are. But here is my first draft:

(1)There is the notion of "the literature". The academic world doesn't care what you say in letters to the editor or talk shows but if you publish in "the literature" you have to defend your facts and logic. If someone points out flaws in your facts or logic and you can't defend it this must be mentioned by other publications in "the literature".

Thank you for your confidence in me. I don't think I need such a list but there are times when I have questions about which source is more reliable. Perhaps the word should be "reputable", I'm not sure. One of the elements is, with the internet, we have a very wide range of reliability. From newgroups, to blogs, to google personal pages, to paid for IPs which host a personal website, to very reliable sites. I don't think it would hurt us to at least have a priority list which spells out that "attributed legal responsibility" (of a source) says the source is more reliable than an attributed website, which in turn is more reliable than an unattributable website. Terryeo 23:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

(2) In WP we have a distinction between "new research" and quoting sources. In the academic world there is a distinction between raw data (eg. ancient writings of questionable provenance) and scholarly writing (which is subject to criticism and needs to be defended by the author). I will compare and contrast these in future ramblings.

Dispassionate narrative

I read this phrase in an Wikipedian's essay somewhere (help out if it rings a bell) about the best manifestation of an NPOV tone is one that is dispassionate and not appearing emotionally involved with the subject. Much to my suprise, this point is not really incorporated into the current guideline. (Though it is somewhat alluded to in the line that NPOV is "neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." and in Karada's Sadam Hussein quote ) All in all the guideline is currently "conflict-driven" in how it presents itself, as if an NPOV tone is only used in articles where there is an inherent conflict between views (ala Abortion). But in practice, I think it is more of a matter of what is an encyclopedic tone--regardless if there is a conflict present. I think the phrase "Dispassionate narrative" conveys this point well and I would like to see it included in the guideline as a way of describing what an encyclopedic, NPOV tone would be. Would there be consensus for this inclusion? Agne 00:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"Dispassionate narrative" or "Dispassionate, encyclopedic narrative" communicate the idea of presenting information without emotional heat. Possibly, in an encyclopedia created purely by scholars the other end of the spectrum would manifest. That is to say, the thing could be so dry and encyclopedic as to be colorless and uninteresting. But here, with thousands of editors, that possibility seems remote in the extreme. Therefore YES ! Terryeo 00:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think we could ever get to the point of being so dry as to be colorless. However, we do tend to swing quite easily to the other end of the spectrum with a lot of emotional writing. I always cringe when I see an article with exclamation points (talk pages excluded, of course :p) or the word "actually" in it. Agne 00:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

LOL ! Terryeo 03:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Nutshells

This issue is unfortunately being simultaneously discussed in various parallel places, including the respective policy Talk pages as well as here. I think that since the nutshells are clearly the status quo, regardless of how we got there, it makes sense to discuss this issue on a site-wide basis before acting. Personally, I think that nutshells are an extremely useful vehicle for a newcomer to get up to speed quickly. Speaking as a recent newcomer, following the nut icons and crispy graphical box in the policy pages played an important role in helping me quickly get an overall picture of the WP policies. I think losing this important benefit would make life harder on future newcomers and would hurt WP; I would like to be absolutely sure we all understand the consequences and agree to the change, if any, with a wide margin consensus. Thanks, Crum375 19:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I would rather see well written first paragraphs. Nutshells aren't wrong, but well written first paragraphs present themselves to the eye of the reader in the same way. And they can contain the same information. Almost every damn page is developing some head template of special meaning. Warnings, alerts, and other things which a person has to wade through before they begin to read about what they came to read about. Let's drop the nutshells and make the first paragraph do the work. In several cases both the nutshell and the first paragraph say almost the same thing, anyway. Terryeo 18:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think one contradicts the other. I think we need both good nutshells and good intros. I think they often serve different functions. For the people (mostly newcomers) following the graphical 'nut icons' on their path to quickly learning the ropes, we need to have good (i.e. contain the bare essentials, short and to the point) nutshells. To those with a bit more time and/or patience, the intros have to do a good job introducing the topics to be discussed. Yes, they often overlap, but not necessarily, and in any case they are both important, each in each own right. Crum375 19:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are you assuming that newcomers need Fisher Price toys? —Centrx→talk • 19:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I know for myself, having been a newcomer only recently, that following the clearly visible 'nut' icon and the nutshell boxes helped me get up to speed quickly on the many policies and guidelines, and in general made my learning experience easier. I would like future newcomers to have that same advantage. Crum375 20:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• Tangentially related question... it is apparent to me that many novice users (by which I mean nobody in particular) have several misconceptions of how Misplaced Pages works. At first glance, the cause of this is the fact that we have way too many policy and guideline pages, and of course the prime fallacy of such pages is assuming that people will read them all. So, assuming that we can't make everybody read everything, and we can't actually get consensus to delete half of them (a fair assumption), how would you propose giving a better wikeducation to newbies? >Radiant< 22:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your assuptions; we do have a messy designed-by-committee-camel type of policy/guideline structure. And it is tough for newbies to digest, and it does eat up valuable time - for them to learn, for the more experienced ones to teach, and for unfortunately a lot of unnecessary arguments and misunderstandings too. Obviously we need a big simplification, although I think the current WP:5P is a good start, and helped me a lot. The problem is that following 5P you end up very quickly in a maze, and then you discover a lot of inconsistencies, redundancies etc. - not fun, as a newbie especially.

One idea: I think we can have a kind of a 'newcomer path' - like various walking/biking sight-seeing trails in various locales. Like a special color icon with 'next' and 'previous' that the newbie can follow, that takes him/her just to the crucial items (like the 5P), ignoring the more esoteric stuff. The current nutshells could be part of that; we can have, for example, a 'nutshell tour' or 'follow the nuts' - kind of a quick policy tutorial. Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crum375 (talk • contribs)

• Hm. My first aim would be to remove the inconsistencies (please point out any that you see). I've been meaning to prune all policy/guideline pages to remove excess verbosity, but doing so would cause a big hassle on most p/g pages when people think it "hasn't been properly discussed". I'm afraid that a newcomer path would still be a large amount of texts that novice users cannot reasonably be expected to read. I think the "basic" stuff is fine, and novices usually get that; it's the "moderate" stuff that people get confused about, because by then they aren't reading {{welcome}} any more and tend to have made a lot of assumptions on how Misplaced Pages ought to work, even if it doesn't. >Radiant< 23:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Desperate help needed at the Black people article! Please get involved!!

This article is an absolute mess. It provides no coherent well sourced definition of a Black person and just rambles on and on about various people who were labled Black in different times, places, and languages, and tries to merge them all together as a coherent ethnic group. It would be like trying to merge Native Americans and people from India into a coherent article called Indian people. It makes no sense. We had requested mediation and the mediator said we should use the census as our source. Here's what the U.S. census says:

A Black is “ a person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro,"or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.”

Black Africa is a synonym of sub-Saharan Africa and all of the non-African groups mentioned (i.e. African-Americans, Haitains) are descendents of the recent African diasporas. And yet we still have editors insisting that South Asians be given equal weight in the article and be considered Black. These people provide no cited definitions or census classifications to defend their assertions, instead they cherry pick from different sources in different countries for examples of South Asians being labeled Black, often in different languages. But by the same logic, I could argue that the Black Irish are Black. The point is the people editing that article need to be forced to adheare to a coherent sourced authoritative definition of a Black person, or the entire article should just be deleted as POV and unencyclopedic.

Dictionary.com], the free dictionary online]., the U.S. census], and the British census] all emphasize the idea that Blacks are of African origin-in fact it is against the law for a dark-skinned person of South Asian or Australian origin to claim to be black in the census. An article by the BBC makes a clear distinction between Blacks and the dark skinned people of South Asian ancestry]. This article about race in biomedicines says “The entities we call ‘racial groups’ essentially represent individuals united by a common descent — a huge extended family, as evolutionary biologists like to say. Blacks, for example, are a racial group defined by their possessing some degree of recent African ancestry (recent because, after all, everyone of us is out of Africa, the origin of Homo sapiens)."]. I really need help getting the editors of that article to stick to a coherent definition, instead of just pushing their own POV. Editingoprah 06:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

An early subtitled paragraph in the article presented a narrowly used information about black people (other uses) and I cut it out of there and pasted it near the end section of the article where it is more appropriate. good luck. Terryeo 18:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggested NPOV language borrowed from sister Wiki

What do you all think of the following language borrowed from the Orthodox Wiki? I was thinking it could be modified for Misplaced Pages's use: "OrthodoxWiki will be, so far as is reasonably possible, worded from a neutral point of view (NPOV). That is, disputes between Orthodox Christian groups will be characterized and described rather than entered into."--Pravknight 03:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Antireligious bias

What do you think about adding a provision regarding antireligious bias to the NPOV rule? Hostility to religion is every bit as much of a form of bigotry as is religious bigotry against other religions or atheism for that matter.

I think allowing antireligious biases undermines Misplaced Pages's neutrality. --Pravknight 03:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC) So does pro-religious bias. No need to specify further. Septentrionalis 05:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's necessary to demonstrate Misplaced Pages's absolute neutrality, such that anti-religious people can't get a pass for pressing their bigotry. I think it needs to be explicit. Saying religious biases aren't allowed, but anti-religious biases are allowed undermines the spirit of the NPOV doctrine. Bigotry is bigotry, plain and simple.

Considering the rise of anti-religious bigotry in Western Europe and North America, I say it's imperative to keep the playing field level. We should talk about issues, but never in a tone that advocates those issues. I find it fascinating how anti-religious people rationalize their bigotry (antipathy) to religion as neutrality. Taking a stance against religion is hardly neutral.

What I'm after is clarity to prevent room for Wikilawyering.--Pravknight 05:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)