Revision as of 15:21, 31 August 2017

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

• WP:RD/H

Main page: Help searching Misplaced Pages

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

August 27

Did the Muslim Arabs have plumbing

Did Medieval Muslim Arabs use plumbing? Uncle dan is home (talk) 03:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is the whole history of plumbing. Omidinist (talk) 03:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

11th century Moorish fountains from Granada, Spain. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Pattern drafting : "Downton Abbey" style maid's apron.

Hi,

In respect of a costume, I am trying to find a pattern for a "parlour-maid"'s apron broadly simmilar to those worn by the relevant characters in Downton Abbey. The closest I found so far was a 'work-apron' from around 1910.

Does anyone on this forum know of a contemporaneous work from the late 1890's-early 1920's which would give advice on how to draft a pattern for these? (Most of my online searches for 'maid-apron' patterns tend to produce considerably more recent designs. ( Whilst some would be appropriate for a more recent farce, they aren't suited to an older historical period or more formal setting being potrayed.)

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't help you with the direct question, but another source for you to consider would be any relevant living history museums. For example, a few blocks from my house there is one called Doon Heritage Village, where historical re-enactors dress in period-appropriate costume (a step or two above people who merely LARP in costumes of varying degrees of authenticity). In the Doon case, the time period is correct, but they wouldn't have a need for the kind of outfit you're after and the geography is obviously wrong, but perhaps there's something similar to be found? What you're after is something dealing with late-Victorian era or the Edwardian era. Those search terms might net you professional re-enactors who've been faced with the exact problem you're facing. Or you could add them to your search terms (edwardian parlour maid pattern) to narrow the field a bit. Matt Deres (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

You might wish to turn to a fashion museum; the shop manager might be able to recommend a book, if the curators cannot answer your question with a quick email. The first I would turn to are the Fashion Museum, Bath and the specialist collection within the Victoria and Albert Museum. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Wasn't there a Wikipedian in residence at the V&A? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:53, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Confectioners manuals referenced in BBC program "The Sweet Makers".

Does anyone have a list of the confectioners mannuals the recent BBC Documentary series "The Sweet Makers" referenced? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

One of them seems to be the 1890 edition of Edward Skuse's Handbook Google Books. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 13:20, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Also at - https://archive.org/details/b28048465 , will be putting a copy on Commons once I can find the other manuals listed in the earlier programs.

Also thanks for pointing me in the direction of the site which provides subtitles/transcripts :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Next problem finding a lifetime so I can confrim PD-old :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The Georgian era manual is Frederick Nutt's Complete Confectioner - https://archive.org/details/b21526205

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I've not found the Tudor era works online yet. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: Maybe this is of interest. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks again.. Nutt's work is clearly PD-old (based on the publication date), and I am reasonably confident Skuse is as well, but I've not been able to conclusively prove it. If you know of a lifetime for Skuse, or a hint on where it might be found it would be useful (The hope is to upload the relevant volumes on Commons, with view to getting them Transcribed at Wikisource. :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:53, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Who was Saint Therotus?

Can anybody identify the patron saint of a "chapel dedicated to St Therotus, or Theriot" at Fordell Castle in Scotland? The only meaningful Google results refer directly to that chapel, or the nearby St Theriot's Well, without shedding any light on who he or she was. Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

There's no St. Therotus, St. Theretus, or St. Theriot on the Roman Calendar of Saints, and the chapel was dedicated in 1511, which suggests he was someone locally venerated as a saint in Scotland. He would have been the subject of a local cult, either with or without the authorization of the bishop. - Nunh-huh 12:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Uh uh, he has been described in the literature as "splendidly apocryphal." — fortunavelut luna 13:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The guy is strictly theriot-ical? Clarityfiend (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Being the subject of a local cult is no guarantee of actual existence! Vide St. Wilgefortis, St. Guinefort. - Nunh-huh 22:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The two possibilities are actually non-exclusive. I mean, Santa Claus is apocryphal, yet Saint Nicholas was not. Who knows what game of telephone might have played out here? Wnt (talk) 19:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Canmore says this: 'Fordell Chapel, restored some years ago, is a mortuary chapel built in 1650. It is said to occupy the site of the old chapel of St Theriot, Therotus or Theoretus. Uoret, an 8th century cleric, may be represented by St Terott or Tirot, Teorot, whose chapel was in Fordel, 1570, 1611 (W J Watson 1926). Noted in 1510 (Reg Magni Sig Reg Scot).'

Thank you all, I bow to your superior Google-fu. I have created a new sub-section at Fordell Castle#Fordell Castle Chapel. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Far from being mythical, this saint was king of the Picts, as this comment explained:

That's right. Where a saint's name begins with a vowel the "t" of "Saint" can transfer to become part of the name. The name James in Latin is Iacobus. In Portuguese it becomes Santo Iago or Sant'Iago which becomes Santiago and finally São Tiago when Tiago is taken to be the actual name. Nearer home, there used to be an annual fair at Ely dedicated to St Audrey at which cheap "tawdry" goods could be purchased. Uoret is a Scottish name - WHAAOE Drosten Stone. 81.151.100.122 (talk) 17:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

That leads us back to Uurad, or is it Ferad, or maybe Feradach....! But few kings are saints. It would be possible there's a saint named after the king. But what's interesting about the possibility is that the article says he died in 842, and Saint says the Pope named the first saint officially in 993. The article says before that, saints were proclaimed in a "local and spontaneous" way. So we're pretty much back to the first response above at this point, but a little wiser in realizing that the idea of formally recognizing and listing all saints is somewhat recent in Christianity. Wnt (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Canmore says the present chapel is built on the site of an earlier one, so the history could go back a long way. The area appears to be the centre of the Pictish kingdom and for comparison there has been a church at the top of Ludgate Hill in London dedicated to St Paul since the seventh century. The timelines of king and saint agree (seventh century) and one wonders why, if he had been "an obscure cleric", he would have been canonised. On the other hand, some kings do make it to sainthood - from England we have Edmund and Edward the Confessor. So we would expect at least one of the many Scottish kings to have been so honoured. 92.8.219.206 (talk) 15:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Just to correct one statement, Fordell Castle was, instead of at the centre of Pictavia it was probably at its southern limit. It is well enough accepted that the real centre of Pictish power lay in the Kingdom of Fortrui with its centre somewhere on the southern coast of the Moray Firth. Also, local "obscure clerics" did make it to sainthood, see St Gervadius. -Bill Reid | (talk) 14:21, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

How did the process of reincarnation according to some of the early Christians that believed in it?

Was it similar to Hindu and Buddhist views of reincarnation, or was it different? Uncle dan is home (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Can you cite any references for this belief of some early Christians? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:13, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Early Christians, by and large, did not believe in reincarnation. Some Gnostic groups did believe in reincarnation, though it had its finer differences from the Hindu and Buddhist views (and the Hindus and Buddhists disagree on aspects of it, but focusing on the Gnostics...).

In Gnosticism, the soul was a fragment of an extension (or emanation) of God that was cut off from God and trapped in the material world (which was "less real" than the spiritual realm of the Aeons). When a body dies, the soul would ascend through lower "heavens" (typically seven in number, identified with the seven Classical planets as astrology understood them), being judged by one of the Archons (the servants of a blind and retarded angel named Samael, who created the material world and thought that he was God). Most souls would be caught by one of the archons, have their memory white-washed (potentially recoverable), and be thrown back to Earth to be born again. Depending on the school of Gnosticism, an enlightened soul might theoretically be able to evade the judgement of each Archon and ascend to heaven, though others said that the only way to get past the Archons was if one knew the magic spells necessary to hold them back. Reincarnation was a bad thing in Gnosticism, reunion with God was the ultimate goal.

In Hinduism, reincarnation isn't exactly regarded as evil. Not the best option (union with God is preferable) but still natural. In Buddhism, reincarnating is (at best) annoying, while not reincarnating is (at worst) considered a good idea (not because of union with God, but because not-existing is somewhat preferable to existing). Ian.thomson (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

As usually is understood, reincarnation is different from resurrection. There is no tradition of reincarnation in ANY of the Abrahamic religions as far as I know. There are, however, several examples from the scriptures of those religions for resurrection. Perhaps the OP got his/her terms confused? --Jayron32 10:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Though not a mainstream part of current belief in either Christianity or Islam, both religions had early periods where a prominent minority argued for reincarnation (earthly return of souls to new bodies) as a possible outcome after death. In addition, a belief in a form reincarnation called Gilgul is still prevalent among some practitioners of Kabbalistic Judaism today. Dragons flight (talk) 11:51, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Origen of Alexandra was a well-known 3rd century Christian scholar. Among other things, he is credited with promoting a Christian theory of reincarnation:

"The soul has neither beginning nor end come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives." (de Principiis)

In his view, each soul had existed from the beginning of time and was capable of passing through multiple Earthly lives. His views had a substantial number of adherents, during a time when Christianity was still finding its way, but his view probably never really qualified as mainstream. During the 6th century, his teachings were formally denounced as incorrect at the Second Council of Constantinople. Like the Hindus and others, he also took the view that the qualities of your next life would be influenced by the character of your actions in the current one:

"Is it not rational that souls should be introduced into bodies, in accordance with their merits and previous deeds, and that those who have used their bodies in doing the utmost possible good should have a right to bodies endowed with qualities superior to the bodies of others?" (Contra Celsus)

In formulating his theories, the Biblical references to resurrection might be seen as posing a challenge. He overcame this by reinterpreting the Biblical references to resurrection as describing the eventual return of the soul to its true heavenly body, while the Earthly body was immaterial. Dragons flight (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

In the classical antiquity culture sphere, reincarnation is often termed "transmigration of souls" or "metempsychosis". In early Christianity, belief in reincarnation was much less mainstream than apocalyptic resurrection (see Book of Revelation, chapter 20)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:53, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

This is much more question than answer... my understanding is that Hinduism includes a "tat tvam asi" principle that all atman is the same. This would seem to be more what I would call "simulcarnation" - everyone is the same soul, but it's no particular order; memories don't necessarily get transferred by any paranormal means. In this variant, "karma" would simply be that the misdeed done by the person is felt by what is really the same person. But I do know that the reincarnation, for whatever reason, also exists, and I don't know much at all where Hinduism is concerned.

In the case of Christianity, there is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. This is widely interpreted to be a vision of Hell, but those disbelieving in Hell as a place of endless torture might be prone to other interpretations, such as one comparable to the Hindu idea. Some people also make very much of the "many mansions" quote but I don't know if that idea has an established name. Another potentially but dubiously related idea is that Kemetism famously has a notion of there being seven different kinds of soul, and if one would suppose the Biblical Exodus has a basis in fact, then "soul" could be an ambiguous concept. Abraham wanted a continuity of the flesh that is one kind; Jesus might at times have been referring to either the ka or the ba. Or not - like I said, more question than answer. Wnt (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

My sources are in storage, but it is an interesting aside that various Siberian tribes believed in several different types of soul, from three to seven, including the breath, the shadow, a doppleganger and a soul that became a bird (the sights of which foretold death) and a small "familiar" that lived in your clothing. See p. 445, An Encyclopedia of Shamanism Volume 2 (Hardcover) By Christina Pratt -- 17:26, 29 August 2017 Medeis

Subject and author with similar names

A Man Called Intrepid was about a man called William Stephenson. It was written by a man called William Stevenson. They were not related.

Does anyone know of other cases where the subject and the writer had very similar - or even identical - names, but were not related? -- Jack of Oz 22:48, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Presumably you're talking strictly non-fiction? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I think I am, upon reflection. -- Jack of Oz 11:29, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The Message was written by Mohammad Ali Maher and produced by Mohammed Sanousi. The Greatest was written by Muhammad Ali (very related) and Herbert Muhammad (not related). InedibleHulk (talk) 23:20, August 27, 2017 (UTC)

Here's Starr on Starr. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:25, August 27, 2017 (UTC)

And Jens on Hans. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:28, August 27, 2017 (UTC)

Anand and Anand. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:33, August 27, 2017 (UTC)

The author seems to be Grant Pooke, not anyone Anand. The others seem to have the same surname, or in one case the same given names, but not both. Thanks for your research. -- Jack of Oz 22:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Wes Moore of Baltimore on Wes Moore of Baltimore (no relation). --Antiquary (talk) 08:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

That's a definite match. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz 22:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I found a 1931 article on motion picture sound recording advances entitled "Noiseless recording." The paper is credited to "H.C. Silent". How about a triple play?A review of "The cerebral basis of consciousness" in the journal Brain 1958: 81; 426–455, by Dr. Russell Brain. A near-miss: Karen Horney wrote about sexuality. Edison (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

August 28

Christian missionaries in Vietnam in the 19th century

I was just reading Vietnamese alphabet's history section. How come the Christian missionaries were successful at eliminating the Vietnamese's previous Classical Chinese script? Meanwhile, China, Korea, and Japan still use Chinese script in some way. What happened? 50.4.236.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:45, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

China had the most reason to hold on their own script, since it was theirs. Korea and Japan already had simpler scripts to supplement Chinese. Also, Vietnam was a French colony during that time, while the other nations were (more-or-less) independent. See History_of_writing_in_Vietnam#French_colonial_period. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:49, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

50.4.236.254 -- First off, Chinese characters have been completely eliminated in the writing of the Korean language in North Korea, while in South Korea they currently have more of a decorative or ornamental role than a truly functional one. Second, the Chinese-influenced way of writing the Vietnamese language, the Chữ Nôm, often used highly-modified versions of Chinese characters (not found in China itself), and was not really suitable for teaching mass literacy. I'm not sure that the spread of the Latin alphabet was in fact mainly due to efforts by missionaries to "eliminate" other writing systems (as opposed to recognition by pragmatic Vietnamese of the limitations of Chữ Nôm)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The article contains the explanation I expected, though it is in light font with a "citation needed" after it: "Because the period of education necessary to gain initial literacy is considerably less for the largely phonetic Latin-based script compared to the several years necessary to master the full range of Chinese characters, the adoption of the Vietnamese alphabet also facilitated widespread literacy among Vietnamese speakers—whereas a majority of Vietnamese in Vietnam could not read or write prior to the 20th century, the population is now almost universally literate." I think a primordial goal of missionaries is always to get the masses reading the Bible, which is to say, to make it as easy for them to sound out the words in the language they know as possible. Also I'd guess that bringing literacy to the poorest, and with it presumably some relief in education and economic circumstance, is also likely to be a high priority. This isn't really an answer unless someone finds real confirmation, but I just thought I should put the idea out there. Wnt (talk) 01:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Wnt -- the Chữ Nôm writing system was identified with a small traditional elite. I don't know most of the historical details in this case, but based on analogy with other historical examples, it seems very plausible to me that the rise of Latin script and decline of Chữ Nôm was partly due to the declining influence of that traditional elite, as well as the realization (probably by missionaries, radical nationalists, and others) that Chữ Nôm was not an appropriate vehicle to bring the Vietnamese language into the 20th century. See various subsections in the Language planning article... AnonMoos (talk) 06:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Question about OSHA inspectors (not law related)

When the United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration shows up at a non-industrial workplace like a restaurant or small store, do they wear hard hats and reflective vests like they do in factories and construction sites? Do they drive marked vehicles? 172.58.12.200 (talk) 02:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Of possible relevance but not American, sorry. Posting it in case you find it useful anyways. Yes, the officials with the briefcases can wield more powers than the officials who carry guns. Eliyohub (talk) 04:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

A quick google search turned up some images minus the reflective vests, but none minus the hard hats. Eliyohub (talk) 04:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Again not US, but there's an urban legend that whilst some scrap metal dealer in the UK had no fear at being visted by the cops, he literally broke down when a fire inspector arrived. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is an image of an inspector on a food truck. I cannot read the logo on his shirt, nor his badge, so I don't know if he works for OSHA or another agency. --Jayron32 15:15, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Cost of the British succession

No doubt, given her majesty's age, plans have been drawn up for her death or resignation (or the "interim" appointment of a Regent, should she become incapacitated). Things like the Coronation ceremony. The Royal funeral. Also, will the thousands (millions?) of mentions of "her majesty" need to be changed to "his majesty"? Official correspondence, government departments, the anthem, etc, etc? (Ditto for the other Commonwealth realms?)

My "minor" question is, what actions (with financial ramifications) will the succession entail on the part of the Government, besides the obvious funeral and coronation?

My "major" question is, how much is it budgeted to cost, in British pounds? Either according to official budget estimates, or estimates from experts? Will the whole enterprise be a significant drain on the British budget? It's been 65 years since the last time the monarchy has changed hands, so there's no recent precedent. I'm not asking for speculation, as this issue has no doubt been subject to official and unofficial study? Eliyohub (talk) 04:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

This article discusses some of the actions that would occur on her passing, though not the specific cost. One interesting statement made there is that the national holiday period declared for mourning and succession may ultimately cost UK businesses and workers a few billion pounds in lost productivity, though that is not a government expense. Dragons flight (talk) 07:09, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

There would also be a significant cost borne across the other Commonwealth Realms. Hack (talk) 07:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Fortunately, many references to "his/her majesty" occur in abbreviated contexts such as HMS, HMSO, and OHMS, where the abbreviation is the same either way. However, all lawyers who are QCs would have to change their abbreviated honorific to KC. An interesting case is the Canadian province of Ontario, where it was decided in 1930 that the principal category of provincial highways should be called "King's Highways". It might have been considered necessary to change the term to "Queen's Highways" in 1952, but this was not done; I don't know whether or not that decision was because someone flinched at the cost of changing all the signs. So it's now been 65 years that we've had King's Highways but no king. (The government started phasing the term out of actual use some years ago, but it remains the highways' official categorization.) --69.159.60.147 (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The words of existing laws don't need to be changed, as the Interpretations Acts of each realm provides that "Queen" is read as "King" during the reign of a male monarch and vice versa.

Re QCs, are you sure that's right? There are various KCs who lived into the reign of the current queen, and they are still normally referred to KCs today. Of course, not having been alive during the 50s-60s, I don't know whether most people changed the signs on their doors at the time. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

For example, in Interpretation Act 1978, section 6. --Jayron32 15:13, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Although the link says new coins will be minted immediately that's not the case. Edward VII's coins were not minted till nearly a year after his mother's death. The new coinage begins on 1 January of the next year. There would be no point in preparing dies for coins of Charles' reign now because the portrait might not be accurate when it was needed. The Queen's Bench division of the High Court will change to the King's Bench Division, the Queen's Remembrancer will become the King's Remembrancer etc., but no doubt existing stationery stocks will be used up before documentation is reprinted. 86.176.124.180 (talk) 22:50, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I have heard native African and Persian speakers say "he", "him" and "his" when speaking English when they mean "she" and "her". Now I know why. Going back to Old English, "he" referred to both genders, which was why "she" was drafted in to make the distinction.

Rose Heilbron was definitely a Queen's Counsel . 92.8.219.206 (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• Her subjects should be grateful to Her Majesty for her continued reign, which is the longest in the history of the Monarchy. Whatever the cost, the succession will have been amortized over at least 63 years. (Of course, it would be more cost-effective in the long run if she were succeeded by a great-grandchild.) -Arch dude (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The Royal Tax Accountants will be all over this one, figuring out the tax implications for the royal household? Eliyohub (talk) 04:41, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

How much do poets earn?

How much can poets earn writing poetry? Who are the best paid poets? How much best selling poets earn? --Hofhof (talk) 17:45, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

They get a dime / For ev'ry rhyme. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

According to this it is pretty much all over the map. The world's highest paid poet is Bernie Taupin, who made $75,000,000 (about) in 2017, most of that as songwriter's royalties for writing the lyrics to Elton John songs. According to this, employees in the category of "poet, lyricist and creative writer) make a pretty normal "middle class" salary in the U.S., ranging from $48,000-$72,000 on average, depending on local market conditions. That, of course, depends on getting hired as such. Freelance poetry is more volatile, but a savvy and skillful poet can make a living: . --Jayron32 18:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

"Would you like fries with that?" Ian.thomson (talk) 17:47, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

To elaborate: the majority of poets do not get paid. The ones that get paid at all would be among the best paid and selling. It's almost like asking "how much do lottery players earn?"

• "The chances of making money as a poet are pretty slim," "incredibly difficult." Because "money isn’t the reason you’re writing".
• "poets generally don't make any money," "the most successful poets these days are poetry professors, so they make their money teaching"
• Very few markets remain for poetry-for-money in 2017.

I say this from experience: poetry is better used to seduce people who like poetry than to make money. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Mankind misses money-making, well-made

poets plenty, proud, professional, paid

be it verse alliterate, limerick,

or even pentameter iambic,

and don't even bother with blank verse.

Ian.thomson (talk) 18:33, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course there's the famously rich Ewan McTeagle. μηδείς (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

United States Poet Laureate currently earns a whopping $35k per annum. (What rhymes with: "Don't quit your day job"?) — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E4D8:84DC:15BC:BD9C (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

For a disenchanted poet, perhaps "Time for grenade lob" ? StuRat (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Do rappers count? People who write music lyrics? (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 21:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

The source I cited above names a lyricist as the worlds highest paid poet. Not hip-hop or rap, but a different genre, but a lyricist nonetheless. --Jayron32 11:45, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

My favourite one - liner:

Football fan (to defender) - Keep your legs together!

Player - Pity your mother didn't do that! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.219.206 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not a one-liner but a riposte. Apropos comments above derided others' ability to count, perhaps related to the demise of metric poetry? -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:18, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

This is the US, and we don't do anything metric. :-) (As for an actual one liner, that would be something like "Take my wife...please !") StuRat (talk) 16:38, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

James Tiptree and W.T. Tyler

The novelists James Tiptree, Jr and W. T. Tyler both worked at the CIA and both, in my estimation, were liberals. I wonder if they ever knew each other or maybe even were friends.144.35.114.188 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

According to this Tyler worked for the United States Foreign Service and the United States State Department and not the CIA. So your presumption is incorrect. The two were also never in the U.S. government at the same time, according to this Tyler started working for the government in 1960, whereas Tiptree had left the U.S. government by 1955. So, no, they would have never met in the government employ. They worked in different agencies at different times. They may have known each other for different reasons, but not as you asked about. --Jayron32 20:18, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Flint residents using lake water

Is a Flint resident allowed to drive over to Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie or Huron and get a bucket of water from there to use for drinking water? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Allowed, sure. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. It's a long drive, and many of them lack cars. Even for those with cars, the expense of the drive is likely more than buying bottled water. Or, better yet, go to the nearby areas served by the Detroit Water supply the whole time, which don't have damaged pipes, and fill up all their containers there. And note that lake water would still need to be boiled and filtered, so it's not as good, in any case. See Flint water crisis. StuRat (talk) 21:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

(EC) The Great Lakes–Saint Lawrence River Basin Sustainable Water Resources Agreement outlines who can and can't draw water from the great lakes. But that applies to municipalities not people, so sure, anyone in Canada or the US could take a bucket of water from the great lakes without being arrested. Of 19 (talk) 21:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Also note that bottled water is fine for drinking, but buying enough to bathe, cook, wash dishes, etc., quickly becomes impossible. StuRat (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

But you'd think that people would get together with a uhaul and just go fill up barrels and bring them back. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:31, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The lake water just isn't better than what they can get nearby. For those without damaged lead pipes, the crisis is over, and they can use the Detroit water they are now reconnected to. For those with damaged lead pipes, they can continue to drink and cook with bottled water, and use the Detroit water + lead to do laundry, wash dishes, etc. One concern though is that Flint still wants to disconnect from Detroit water. Hopefully they will do so in a competent manner this time. StuRat (talk) 03:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you kindly. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. I will mark this Q resolved. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Identify this painting and photo?

Perhaps inspired by Le Déjeuner sur l’herbe, but with some actual lunch, and rational dress. Women picnicking. Cigarettes being languidly smoked. Bicycles lean against a tree. This is the New Woman resting from her labours, transported to the countryside thanks to the safety bicycle. Two images to identify: This painting was used by Bike Citizens, and this "Velo Vintage" photo came to light when I was searching for the painting. Can anyone help me identify either? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

First is Radlerinnen Picknick by Emanuel Bachrach-Barée. Appeared in "Allgemeine Illustrierte Zeitung" in 1897. Fuller image here. Nanonic (talk) 06:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

August 29

Unique Connections Between `Revelation` and Another Author's Corpus

What are some of the themes or expressions appearing in only two “places” in the Christian New Testament — the first one being the Book of Revelation, and the second being another author's corpus (including John, as well as Barnabas and Clement) ?

• For instance, the expression “first from the dead” is found only in Paul and Revelation (Acts 26:23; 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5).
• Likewise, the identification of Christ as the Word of God appears only in John and Revelation (John 1:1, 1:14; 1 John 1:1, 5:7; Revelation 19:13).
• The author of Revelation, like Paul before him, writes to exactly seven churches or cities.

— 82.77.34.212 (talk) 12:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• The seven churches is debatable. If you include the Pastoral epistles in Paul's writing, then you get an 8th church since Titus was a leader of the church in Crete. See Epistle to Titus. --Jayron32 11:58, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The Book of Life is mentioned in the New Testament only by Paul (Philippians 4:3) and in the Book of Revelation (3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 20:15, 21:27 and 22:19), although the term predates the New Testament and is similar to "book of the living" in Psalm 69:28.

"Babylon" as a metaphor for Rome (which is a common, but not universal interpretation) occurs only in 1 Peter 5:13 and Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, 18:10 and 18:21). - Lindert (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused by your reference to Barnabas and Clement, since they're not in the New Testament; are you also interested in the Apostolic Fathers? Also remember that the authorship of the Apocalypse is disputed, with some holding that the author is the same John as the author of the Gospel and the epistles. Nyttend backup (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

(1). They are not now, but they were once, at least in certain regions. (2). No, only these two. (3). Which is why I wrote including John. — 82.77.34.212 (talk) 22:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Border control and criminal record

How can the customs officer at the border know about the foreign criminal record of a passenger? Is there an international criminal records' DB? Maybe I'm watching too much Border Security: Australia's Front Line. Do governments report their own citizens to all other governments?Hofhof (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Some do and some don't. There are international police agencies such as Interpol which maintain and share databases of those with criminal records, but not all countries participate in the program. In most cases, the main background check is performed when the traveler requests a visa. The destination country (issuing the visa) will query the police of the country of origin and ask if the traveler has a criminal record before a visa is granted. Most law enforcement agencies around the world cooperate and are willing to answer such requests... assuming theykeep proper records. So a lot depends on the country of origin. Blueboar (talk) 14:21, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Read the official Border Guards' Manual , and our article Schengen Information System. 92.8.219.206 (talk) 16:30, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

as I'm fairly sure most of what you suggest is not the case. Many countries do not routinely share ordinary crominal records. While most of these do not deal specifically with sharing relating to immigration officials (customs officials are generally less interested in criminal records) they seem to make it clear such sharing is often limited . If you check these, you will see that some of these even deal with the EU or Australia-New Zealand. (One deals with Canada-US but it seems that's one of the few cases where the sharing is fairly advanced. Perhaps not surprising since the info already send highly public in the US.) Note that privacy limitations mean that law enforcement agencies cannot necessarily just share the information unless there are laws or policies which specifically allow it. Getting a waiver from the person who's record it is may help, but not necessarily in such a context. There are additional databases related to terrorism etc, these are generally more routinely shared although I think events in the EU have shown even there it can get complicated. I do not believe there are any general criminal record shared databases as part of Interpol. Law enforcement agencies can issue notices to tell another country to look out for a person, and similar things, but that's quite different from general criminal record sharing. Interpol and other international cooperation may allow specific criminals or suspected criminals to be targeted but they don't mean the immigration officials are going to know about a conviction for assault or low level stuff offence. See also this discussion at StackExchange where someone claims similar things . may also be of interest as it claims the EU in the past specifically forbade the sharing of criminal records with authorities of countries outside the EU. Note that if you apply for certain visa's in Australia or New Zealand, and from what I read also in other places, you will often be required to specifically ask the police (or whoever) to carry out and provide a criminal record check to immigration officials, for any country you've lived in for a significant period of time. There is generally no exemption for close countries and you are the one that has to ask. Nil Einne (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

P.S. It's been a while since I've watched Border Security Australia but I'm not sure why it would lead the OP to believe that criminal records are shared. My memory of what I saw is that it demonstrated (along with Border Patrol and other shows) that very often the immigration officials did not know of any criminal records, but instead either relied on the person accurately answering the question, or managed to catch the person out somehow. I think sometimes they also use general internet searching if they have a reason to. Nil Einne (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

P.P.S. One thing to remember about such shows, as with any show, is they don't generally show the routine, mundane, boring everday case for obvious reasons. Even if someone with a minor criminal records is allowed in because they lied on the entry form, while this may be slightly interesting if no one knows of it, then the person may just have been a routine everyday entry where there was nothing to show.

Also I should clarify my point about customs officials. Customs officials do obviously work with immigration ones, depending on the country sometimes they even come from the same agency but regardless they have a shared duty to try and stop any violations. So if during customs screening you mention you spent time in prison, or say something else to suggest you may have a criminal record or have documents, emails, SMS or other messages on your phone or computer etc which suggest so, this is something they look out for since it's something of interest to immigration. Likewise customs officials will specifically keep an eye and ear out and also question you in such a way that you may inadvertedly mention details you've hidden relating to other possible violations, e.g. any information like work records or again documents or emails, SMS or other messages suggesting you plan to work when all you have is a tourist visa. They may question you about what they find as part of the 'intelligence' process. But it will be the immigration ones who ultimately deal with questions over your eligibility to enter or stay in the country, not customs ones and yes it doesn't matter if you've already been granted a visa if new information is found.

Customs officials will be personally interested in criminal records which relate to their work. So for example if you do have a conviction for drug offending, or for smuggling, or for child sex offending, this is something which will interest them to aide targeting their searches. If you have disclosed a criminal record and been allowed in anyway (which is possible for the drug offending or smuggling depending on the length of time since the sentence etc but probably difficult for child sex offending) this information would likely be shared between the immigration officials and customs ones for this purpose. Note that such cases generally involves applying for a visa beforehand as people with criminal records are frequently not eligible for visa free entry or visas on arrival. Although if you watch such shows you probably know if it's a really minor record and you do disclose it on the entry form and it's your first time, you may be granted a visa at the border if you're really lucky.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:37, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

For the Interpol thing see this link which seems to confirm the databases are for when countries are asking for help . They aren't for when someone was never a fugitive, was convicted of assault and has now been released to give a random example. Nil Einne (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Also the StackExchange although it doesn't have sources does mention the same thing about Interpol. And also suggests the US and Canada also generally require you to provide your criminal records when applying for a visa rather than the officials getting it themselves. I wouldn't be completely surprised if this applies even in cases when it's between the US and Canada despite the information sharing although the sharing does mean if you fail to disclose it there's a fair chance you'll be caught at the border. Here's a source for the NZ requirements and this is the Australian one . I was a bit ambigious in my comment above because I wasn't sure if some countries require the record be sent directly to the immigration officials to avoid tampering but it seems both of these at least don't require that. You receive it and furnish it. I should mention these pages also make clear that police certificate is about more than just criminal record. You're often required to have something vaguely called 'good character' for entry or particularly for a long term visa. So there is interest in things that a police certificate may have such as arrests, suspicion of involvement in crimes or being part of a criminal group, court cases without conviction, protection orders (restraining orders) against you which aren't part of your criminal record per se and so may not be shared even if there is criminal record sharing. You can see the arrival card for NZ here and Australia here and see they don't ask about such details only time spent in prison and previous deportations/refusal of entry, even if you may be technically required to have good character. Nil Einne (talk) 08:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I recall hearing an account of how they do a search for criminal records in a more disorganized nation. They do have a central DB, but don't have much confidence that local offences would make it into that DB. Therefore, they first question the person about where they were born, lived, worked, went to school, etc., then they ask the local police in those areas if they have any records for that person. If they can't confirm that the person was in the places they claimed, that would also be a red flag. Certainly time-consuming and prone to error, but better than nothing, I suppose. StuRat (talk) 20:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

10 year multiple-entry Chinese visa

In 2015, Australia introduced 10-year multiple entry visas for Chinese nationals. What about the other direction? Can Australians apply for 10-year multiple entry Chinese visas?

I'm asking because:

1. These type of international visa agreements are reciprocal in many cases.

2. Americans and Canadians get this treatment, so I'm wondering whether Australians get the same thing as well.

I tried searching for various combinations of the keywords "10-year Chinese visa for Australians" but all I'm getting is the Chinese-nationals-entering-Australia case, not the other way around. Mũeller (talk) 15:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Speaking from my experience as an American, I'm guessing not. Unless you're planning on staying the rest of your life, most of them have time limits. The foreign teachers and I had to get ours renewed every year (which the school handled and never had any trouble with), and after five years we'd have to leave the country to get it renewed (one friend of mine would go to Hong Kong for that but she had some connections).

Here's the Chinese embassy in Australia's page on visas. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. That's slightly surprising then; usually it's the more prosperous nation that gets the upper hand in these kind of negotiations.

So if Australian can't get 10 year Chinese visas, then what's the maximum duration for which they can apply for? 5 years? 2 years? Mũeller (talk) 11:40, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

August 30

Was there any culture where punching and/or wrestling was uncommon?

Compared to the other kinds of unarmed fighting/sparring/fighting-like sport like karate chops, kicking, slapping, choking, poking, putting body parts in painful/injuring positions, arm wrestling.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:05, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I suggest you take a course in British History followed by a supplementary course in Bavarian. μηδείς (talk) 14:57, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Do you think you could possibly answer the question in a straightforward manner, rather than burying it in so-called humour? --Viennese Waltz 06:44, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

See Martial arts. Competitions have rules for sparring that can be divided into light-contact, medium-contact, and full-contact variants, reflecting the amount of force that should be used on an opponent. Blooteuth (talk) 12:11, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Right but if the art has punching they still punch the guy, they just slow or stop before touching him if not full contact. Is there any culture where if you did a boxing-style punch in a street fight that would be unusual or weird? And their non-minor fighting sports had no punching? Is wrestling and punching a cultural universal? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:59, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

How are you defining "wrestling"? I would have thought that "putting body parts in painful/injuring positions" would count as that (as possibly would "choking"). Iapetus (talk) 14:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Philomé Obin

Hi, my name is Philip Robert Obin. My grandpa is Philomé Obin, the famous haitian painter. My birth father, Robert Jovia Obin, died from cancer in March. I just want to know if I'm a true descendant to Philomé or not. I found out online in 2010 that I was related to him. Also, how many Obin family members are there in Haiti? Thanks for your help! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.107.220 (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I made the title into a link. Not that this will answer your Q's, though, but it's a good place to start. StuRat (talk) 21:19, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Can you get your father's birth certificate, and yours ? Those should establish paternity and grand-paternity. Of course, they aren't always accurate, but that would be the first step. StuRat (talk) 21:22, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

August 31

President Trump's pardon of Sheriff Joe Arpaio

Sheriff Joe Arpaio was convicted of a crime on July 31, 2017. He was pardoned by President Trump on August 25, 2017 (before he had been sentenced). His sentencing date was scheduled for October 5, 2017. Will the Court -- as a formality -- still go forward and sentence Arpaio, even though he has been pardoned? Or will the Court simply dispense with that formality? Is there any (legal) reason to actually go through with the sentencing matter, even though it has been made moot by the pardon? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The judge cancelled the sentencing hearing and told the lawyers not to bother filing briefs, but is still hearing arguments about vacating Arpaio's convictions, or at least the criminal contempt conviction. This is in the usual news outlets. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 08:14, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. --Viennese Waltz 08:36, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Infact this contains some remarkable Irony!

--Kharon (talk) 14:45, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The word "wherefore" in Shakespeare

Shakespeare often uses the word "wherefore" in his plays. The word "wherefore" means -- in today's common language -- the same as the word "why". There are times when Shakespeare uses both "wherefore" and "why" (even in the same sentence or the same line of a character). So, is there any subtle distinction between the two words? Or do they mean the same exact thing? I assume that Shakespeare used one form of the word or the other ("wherefore" versus "why") to accommodate his "needs" for correct rhyme or verse; or to accrue the desired number of syllables; or to fit into a correct iambic pentameter scheme; and so forth. But, aside from Shakespeare's poetic "requirements", do the words carry any subtle distinction or nuances in their meanings? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:34, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Not an answer to your question, but early in the first episode of Upstart Crow (it´s on youtube), Shakespeare discuss this word with his family. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:21, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Joseph A. Spadaro -- in older English, there was a pattern in which the words "it" and "what" didn't usually occur directly after prepositions. Instead PREPOSITION + "it" was replaced by "there" + PREPOSITION, while PREPOSITION + "what" was replaced by "where" + PREPOSITION. So instead of saying "after it", they'd say "thereafter", and instead of "for what" they'd say "wherefor" (now spelled "wherefore"). Some of those old words are still in use in legal terminology, and analogous usage can still be observed in the modern Dutch and German languages. Also, in modern English, we ask "What for?" as well as "Why?". "Wherefore" was the Shakespearean English equivalent of "What for"... AnonMoos (talk) 09:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course orthography was not very standardized in Shakespeare's day, but nowadays I think there is a distinction between therefore, meaning "and thus if follows", and therefor, meaning "for that". There are a few people who have a habit of writing "therefor" when they mean "therefore", and it rubs me the wrong way. --Trovatore (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Quotations by William Shakespeare 1564 - 1616

“Alack, I love myself. Wherefore? For any good That I myself have done unto myself? O, no! Alas, I rather hate myself For hateful deeds committed by myself." - Richard III

Blooteuth (talk) 11:36, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Regarding use of Why? and Wherefore? in Shakespeare: In Shakespeare's time, as today, as in every language in every part of the world ever, there is more than one way to express something, and choosing which word to choose among a set of near-synonyms is not arbitrary. Writers choose specific words among a set of similar words intentionally and with forethought, depending on the tone they wish to set. Shakespeare was no different, and just because he had the word "wherefore" doesn't mean he wouldn't also choose "why" even though they carry similar meanings. Just as a writer may choose between "big" and "large" for very specific reasons, and just as both words exist and are available in modern English, so both "why" and "wherefore" were available for Shakespeare. This shouldn't be surprising given that we still do this, and have always done this, and always will do this sort of thing. --Jayron32 12:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, yes, but that's exactly what the OP is asking - what is the subtle distinction? "Big" and "large" are near perfect synonyms, but mean different things when used in combination with other words ("big man" vs. "large man") as "big" tends to have more connotative meanings than "large", which is usually only related to physical measurement. The question before us is what those distinctions were for "why" and "wherefore" in Shakespeare's time. I do not know the answer to that question. Matt Deres (talk) 14:17, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Philosophy Institute identification on Sergio Cotta article.

Hi, What is the top institute for philosophy article on Misplaced Pages. I found this on German WP: , which is this: IIP. Is there any equivalent on en WP, is there an article on this institute on en WP.

I'm working on this article: Sergio Cotta. The Italian version is here: . Do you reckon the Institut International de Philosophie Politique which is spoken of in the academic career section, is this, i.e. the IIP institute.?

Thanks scope_creep (talk) 11:12, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

There is the Italian Institure for Philosophic Study in Naples - Wymspen (talk) 13:37, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages resources for researchers
• Misplaced Pages help forums
• Misplaced Pages reference desk