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Latest example here: . Please protect me. -- ] (])
Latest example here: . Please protect me. Rob has commented in all my BRFA's, my BAG membership and in many more places. Usually, he is the first to comment. I have evvidence that he as been sending emails about me to others. -- ] (])
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On August 18, this person was searching Misplaced Pages for the misspellings "whote" and "wite" for the purpose of correcting them. Thesetwo corrections are quite wrong, and they are within the first dozen edits.
The same day, TheOldJacobite started defending against a swarm of this person's poor quality edits at the Zero Dark Thirty article, eventually using 11 different IP6 addresses, all starting with 2605:E000:9161:A500 in the recent months (back in April it was 2605:E000:9152:8F00.) After ten days of the nonsense, Scribolt worked to repair the damage. Unfortunately, this IP6 editor has worn out the patience of the page watchers, and the plot section now suffers for it.
It's only today that I became aware of this editor when they attempted to fix the grammar at some music articles. When I reverted the poor quality changes, I noticed that they were immediately restored with hostile comments in edit summaries and on talk pages. I looked further and saw that this person has been spoiling for a fight at the Ishqbaaaz talk page at which Cyphoidbomb said, "In the future if you could avoid adding multiple edit requests as you did, that would be appreciated." The angry reaction by this person was to add 12 new edit requests.
If there is a protect on an article it is not my fault what means I have to suggested edits. I am not aware that every suggestion has to be acted upon. And the suggestion that has been repeatedly made by so many other WP editors was that a registered user name be established. Again, is it oir is nit not the policy of WP to not look upon non-registered user name participants as just as legitimate as registered who tend to be more long term users and editors of WP. This just goes to my original contention that there exists in WP a two-phere mentality particularly when it comes to contentious actions such as the matter of this board. That in the long run people who use registered user names are perceived differently than non-registered user named.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
At my user page, this person admitted to disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point when they wrote, "I always put something in to see just how unwelding can someone be about their position. Sometimes it is presenting a format out of kilter and sometimes it is a misspelled word."
Please be advised that your characterization is incorrect. It was a test to better understand your personality and how it manifests. That is not the same as being disruptive but you are the status quo so I imagine that will have more influence that whatever position I could take.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:36, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I think communication with this person could be focused more clearly if a rangeblock were set in place on 2605:E000:9161:A500/64, while allowing talk page access. Binksternet (talk) 03:04, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment Thanks, Binksternet. Interestingly (to me), this appears to be the same person who has been busting Drmargi's chops over at Talk:Victoria (TV series), dropping voluminous diatribes that don't genuinely seem focused on arriving at an understanding, rather, it seems like they're stonewalling improvements by draining editors of their time with a lot of confusing, linguistic dick-waving. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Let me know when you have calmed down from your venting of anger because that language really is not even in an anonymous environment suitable. I would think that you as what I perceive your image to be portrayed as a seasoned WP contributor would know that. I hope you do not take this wrongly. Maybe, you had a bad week or day.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
For an example of which, see this thread on my talk page. After this gobbledegoop I took a look at some of the IPs edits, and reverted some of them, and the IP retaliated by making bullshit edits to an article I've done a lot of work on. This was 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6, the first on Binksternet's list.Thanks to Binksternet for chasing down the other IP numbers this person is using. They're obviously NOTHERE and should be blocked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: I originally thought the editor was using a complaint letter generator to respond to Drmargi. I had second thoughts about that, but the language is so bizarre. It's like someone was trying to write lawyer-speak in their native tongue, then mechanically translating it to English. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Let me understand if this is correct. I am being held responsible for the manner in which the technology works with WP in regard to how an IP address is recognized by WP? Because it is no great conspiracy on my part about how that functions. I enter the sight and whatever it recognizes it does on its own. I believe it is recognized by WP that users do not have to register to be a contributor? Or by the surprise about the number of "IP's" that this is not true? I have held on to this ability and now it seems I am being accused of being to proud and combative not to register a username? A review of actions by this board show that this trait seems to be prevalent with those that find fault with others. I recognize that within those that have a very high interest in WP find that a blasphemous statement but I cannot help what is prevalent and had no improved over the years despite WP stating that a contributor or even a user must register a username to be part of this community. There seems to be a cookie cutter app used by many at WP that seems to believe that registering a user name is the answer to the situation? How can on the one hand say it is official WP policy and guideline not to require a registered username yet on the other hand such as in this situation because of the technology of WP issue multiple IP's then turn around and say that there seems to be some thing wrongs with that many IP's? And it is merely the technology in motion? I guess there may be a finer point to this that you may be angry that this has happened? Again, that is not my responsibility and something I have absolutely no control. If there is anger about that it should be directed at WP's technology. But that may be immaterial as you all seem to be upset. And nothing will change that.Or is that going to be interpreted as a statement of being challenging to the status quo?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 05:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The complaints have been about your edits and your comments, not about the number of IP addresses used - those are presented simply so that a range block can be made to stop you from editing further, if that is the WP:CONSENSUS of this discussion. And thanks very much for presenting precisely the problem with your language, which is nearly incomprehensible. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
sp suppose = supposed?(For the onlooker: the IP came to my talk page, quoted a 2 year and 4 month old comment I had made in which I had misspelled "security", and asked "sp securty=security?" Soon after the IP was making retaliatory edits to an article I've edited heavily.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
That is an interesting addition to this proceeding. Is that often done? Although he came from over the hill can never said that I found the man all that appealing. paranoid, yes. And to think that his "official presidential papers" will probably never be housed at his presidential library because of his legal problems. Now will someone else be adding a pic of Raygun?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I would find that someone saying the issue is totally over edits rather than IP's failing to recognize that within WP is an element that prides itself not on letting people function without registered usernames name but someone perceiving that the use of a registered username solves the problem at hand. Now this may have something to do with the availability of more experienced WP users using the app that uses canned language. When you combine someone's experienced as expressed on the pages that this person creates (not the articles) listing their accomplishment with this "command" as set forth by this canned language there does tend to be presented an air of authority. And as such wrapped around the content of that canned language that a registered user name somehow obliterates any perceived misunderstand is really someone not understanding the full impact of just what it is that they have done. Either you know that it is going on or oblivious to that fact which then calls question to your ability to evaluate and respond. Now, again, to the status quo that is blasphemous. There is a potential conflict there that you may not be aware that is going on and as a more advanced WP user you should just as you expect less expereicned WP users not to step on your toes. 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:14, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
No, it's about your problematic edits and your combative behavior. The only thing a registered username would do in this instance is to make it slightly easier to block you. Binksternet (talk) 06:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Remember that you are speaking for the status quo. You see nothing wrong with your approach or behavior. Do you truly understand the impact of canned apps? The reaction makes it appear you see nothing wrong with the status quo? And again, bringing up that statement is to the status quo blasphemous. How dare you say that there is something wrong with us when we are the authority>2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Irrelevant
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Let me understand this, Zero Dark Forty is faulty despite when the original issue was raised another editor complimented the tight expression? Could you recognize the inherently wrong direction the plot was going before its current status? Can it be recognized that when someone does not understand the context of a subject many times puffery makes it presence. The excess of detail shows that many who worked on this plot before could not wrap their understanding around how understanding the non-westerners was the means to understanding the plot of this film and getting rid of puffery. But instead all this other stuff that is detail, something experienced by the westerners and thus understandable was getting in the way to a -700 word plot. When the issue was raised about plot content another WP editor praised the tightness of the expression. All the detail was there to be used but not the detail that would give a -700 word plot. What was being missed was the experience through the non-western eye. At one time in the plot there was expressed in the same statement that someone was being followed yet were not identified as a suspect although it was clear that they traced the person all the way from being in a position to receive and send messages and being at the compound. Yet all this stuff about spy-craft puffery emerged without getting to the point that cultural and personal habits were key to getting a -700 word plot. If you are unwilling to accept that the approach taken is not the best yet when someone else insists it is there fault for you being upset? It seems that all the responsibility is being placed on the newbie instead of the more seasoned WP user relying on the canned apps. It sounds like there is a serious culture problem within WP as how to approach people. But then again, in the land of status quo, that is blasphemous. You get reprimanded for that. 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment - took a look through the ranges and it doesn't seem like anyone else is using 2605:E000:9161:A500/64 or 2605:E000:9152:8F00/64, so a rangeblock on both should hopefully put a stop to it. That said, I'm not going to do it since...well...I don't know how yet, among other reasons. ansh66606:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
A review of dealings with even suspected sock puppies etc seems to bring people out of the woodwork as if there is some conspiracy to undermine WP. Just because the internet is the love of those that love anonymity does not mean that they are set out to act against anyone's interests and to have postulated that thought is just part and parcel to the other forms of character assassination used at WP.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 06:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
It is not my responsibility how WP technology works. You do not seem to accept that? And how do you base you assessment? Perception because you certainly have yet to provide except through that one action naturally would have followed thr other. I know that will make you upset but that is not my responsibility. Do us a favor in d=these discussions. Show up to give examples rather than mere mud throwing. Your other compatriate have done that well enough. We do not need people to come out of the wood work and using these avenues to vent anger only shows how bsse one can be in an anonymous environment. It is not as if you as my neighbor show up at a community meeting to say to my face what is it that you feel is the problem. Venting anger is really counter productive to these presumably civil and courteous proceedings. You have failed the mark. Would you like to return to your venting to clarify what you can cite as examples of support?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 07:12, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Without commenting on the validity or need for a block, it seems like a rangeblock for 2605:e000:9161:a500:0:0:0:0/64 would take care of this. Based on edits since Sept. 1, 2017, this was the only (or at least primary) range used. Edit: Looks like Ansh666 beat me to the punch. See their comment above. EvergreenFir(talk)07:43, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Our brief user talk interaction seems relevant to this thread, as it goes to the IP's mind-set vis-a-vis collaboration. I don't feel my request was unreasonable - your mileage may vary. ―Mandruss☎08:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I guess now I am going to ever be the more contentious because WP's forms are not user friendly? On the one hand I am deemed incompetent and yet on the other competent enough to do what is wanted by the status quo. WP really needs to determine just what it want to achieve. Slapping the person on one side of the face is not productive for having done something and then slapped on the other for not having done something?2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 09:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Since they are still doing their so-called grammar edits, all of which have to be checked to see that they haven't added errors where none existed (or substituted new errors for old ones), a block sooner rather than later would be good. They are a time sink, and it doesn't really matter whether they are incapable of understanding people's advice and pointers to policy, or if they merely choose to ignore what other editors say. The non sequitur answers here don't help. --bonadeacontributionstalk09:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The underlying situation here is that when it comes to blaming someone that usually goes toward the lesser experienced WP participants because the status quo is unwilling to let WP's reputation faulter. Just now, I have found that a seasoned WP editor justified their reverting of a grammatical correction that I made based on the wrong assumption that I had imposed a spelling error when in fact if that editor had reviewed what had been done before hitting the revert app they would have known that I had nothing to do with the misspelling of "released". Just as it has been said time and time again within this forum, WP is not a place for innovation and even within other discussion on this very page it has been said that actions have been taken to protect WP, not find the truth but protect WP. This is what comes from an organization that promotes ONLY from within. Talk about stifling debate. But then that is a blasphemous statement coming from the non-status quo. All the dancing that the status c=quo wants to do will not change that perception.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 10:03, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Hey guys, I get the idea from the latest immediate attention to edits I have made that I am not welcomed but at least get off the auto revert app and read what is it that you are reverting especially when you reintroducre misspellings.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Mark, you are indiscriminately reverting everything without regard to what has been corrected which includes the misspellings that you reintroduce. I am suppose to present a defense dealing with these bizarre personalities? The guy trhows at me the 3r rule in response to him indiscrimately reverting as if the world is coming to an end. Boy, it really does not take much to ruffle the feather in this pillow case. This is so bizarre and you all call yourself sane. Well, that explains one missing glue bottle.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
2605, the Misplaced Pages project's goal is supposedly to give everyone in the world an encyclopedia in their own language, but for some reason the English Misplaced Pages has almost(?) as much content as the rest of the world's language's Misplaced Pages's put together. Meanwhile, the other languages are badly underrepresented so we're missing our goal of serving the readers of those languages. Could I suggest that if your native language is not English, that you contribute to your own language's Misplaced Pages? That way you'd be helping the global Misplaced Pages effort in a way that monoglot English speakers (most of us here) cannot. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Well that turned into a circus. MarkSewath started reverting all the gnomish work that the IP6 person had been performing, with the reverts speeding along at about nine per minute, a speed which makes it impossible to see if you are helping to build the encyclopedia. Mark also accused the IP6 person of being a sockpuppet of Gabucho181, which seems unlikely to me. Callanecc then blocked the IP for two days, which raised a storm of righteous protest from that person, and 90 minutes later Yamla revoked talk page access. To me, this action does not address the core concern which is that our IP6 editor from SoCal is a boorish timesink, making an unknown number of faulty changes to grammar and spelling, and provoking conflict in every interaction with other editors. The style of Gabucho181 is completely different than that. I would be happy to see a block placed on the IP6 range while allowing talk page access. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree that this is not Gabucho181. Gabucho181 is located in South America, does not respond with wallsoftext, and does not have this level of English proficiency. Moreover, Gabucho181 likes to troll directly, antagonizing users and purposefully vandalizing pages. They perseverate typically on cartoons like Dan Vs. or Gravity Falls and have not been known to make grammar changes like this.
Goodness. I read this late last night and there were a couple comments, now it's all taken off. I'm not sure there's much I can contribute other than putting a few thoughts on the record just in case they may be needed in future. My encounter with the now-blocked IP was at Victoria (TV series). In its first episode, a court lady-in-waiting is forced to undergo a gynecological exam by court physicians when the Queen is lead to believe the lady is pregnant by an adversary of the Queen. Despite the fact the lady had no choice in the matter, and events followed which portrayed her as submitting under force, the IP removed the word force from the episode description, claiming that absent physical force in the manner of slaves, she wasn't forced to undergo the examination. I provided the Oxford dictionary (given this is a British show) definition of force, which includes action against will, and he let loose the dogs of war in a series of walls of text that are substantively unreadable. He adopts some lawyer-esque strategies that lead me to think he's either a para-legal worker of some sort or perhaps a law student who knows just enough to be dangerous: everything is on the attack, but at it's heart, simply says, "I'm going to limit the definition of force to a specific sort of physical force, and preclude the description of what happened to Lady Flora as force." As I noted at the time, this materially alters the motivation for the sequence of events that followed, and mis-represents what was done to the lady. His response was simply more words, and the addition of two additional threads picking at additional verbal nits.
My thanks to Cyphoidbomb for his help. I was told this might be an IP from the UK (despite the geolocation to the U.S., the IP uses some British English) who has argued against similar assaults on women, but apparently, that's not the case. Cyphoid stepped in when I hit a wall trying to get the issue resolved once it became apparent the IP was not discussing in good faith but simply playing word games. I'd also add, BMK, that User:2605:E000:9161:A500:7C06:FE51:3E78:B311 made one post in the thread, but the rest came from the IP above. Oh, and whoever thinks he's an academic, not on your Nelly. I'm an academic and this guy isn't playing in anything like the same pool. Oh, and one last odd thing: depending upon which geolocation site is used, the IP resolves to either Los Angeles County or Herndon, Virginia via Time Warner Cable. There's probably a reasonable explanation why, but I suspect he's actually in VA, since that location is more precise. ----Dr.Margi ✉18:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Drmargi:: Thanks, I realized my error some time late last night, after the IP had been blocked. I also agree that when I went through Gabucho181's LTA page last night, it didn't seem much like this IP's behavior at all. Still, the IP did need to be blocked as an obvious troll and a timesink, despite the small percentage of their edits which were helpful. A net negative for sure. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Regarding the person's tendency to prefer British English, I believe this comes from learning English in India. Many of the articles that interest the person are related to Indian culture. Binksternet (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Funny you say that; I suspected the same thing just based on his syntax and word choice. ----Dr.Margi ✉20:30, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Can someone check into WP technology to understand why is it that I am bale to edit? I would not want people to think that I have somehow cracked the system. This is how I have access WP all along with all the varied assigned IP's. See Mark--no conspiracy.2605:E000:9161:A500:BC89:17B1:2FD6:DD67 (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
You truly do not get it? I am doing absolutely nothing differne than in the past several months when editing WP. I go onto the website and this is what happens. It issues me a new account with a clean contiubtions list page. You make it out to sound as if I hav cracked the system. WP needs to lok ointo their syetm because there is a failure! Are you all conspiratorical idiots?
As the user is evading a block, I have applied a /64 range block for the same length of time as the block on the single IP address. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:59, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I was a latecomer to this, I’m afraid; the block evasion was obvious so... Having looked at this wall of text more closely, I see that the user has been disruptive and a block is warranted on those grounds. No comment on whether this is Gabucho181. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
P.S. A note for those who reverted this user’s edits here for ‘evading a block’, the block had in fact expired at 12:45 today. Nonetheless it was further disruptive behaviour hence the further 72 hours rangeblock (which expires on 15:18, 12 October). --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:47, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I read about this "discussion" on the internet and could not believe that it was true; is the proper way that Misplaced Pages deals with people that it feels are threat? That seams rather limited in your scope to exclude someone from defending themselves and at the same time being label contentious. It would seem that if you accuse someone then you have to leave the system open for rebuttal.76.169.36.143 (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Rangeblocked cannot edit other ranges vandalizing originality Gabucho181 like vandalism, block evasion and trolling account. --MarkSewath (talk) 09:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
MarkSewath has been CU-Blocked so I guess we can discount his input here. That does not resolve the IPs disruptive behaviour however. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
To the blocked IP
To the blocked IP: You are laboring under a fundamental misapprehension. When an editor is blocked, if they have an account, that account is mechanically prevented from editing. If they are using a single IP, that IP is mechanically prevented from editing. If they are what we refer to as an "IP-hopper" -- that is, someone who is either deliberately or through the action of their ISP-provider, using a different IP every time they log on, then a range-block can be applied to mechanically prevent IPs in a particular range from editing. However, the block is not for the specific account, IP, or IP range, the block is for the person doing the editing, which is this case is you. If, through no fault of your own, or by your deliberate machinations (it doesn't matter which), you are able to log on and find that you are not mechanically prevented from editing, you have a moral obligation not to take advantage of that situation. That is, you, yourself should restrict yourself from editing.
Now, if you are actually interested in helping Misplaced Pages, you will follow this restriction, because by evading your block (which is what editing when you're blocked but not mechanically prevented from editing is called), you risk longer sanctions, up to and including eventually being banned from the site, in which case any edit you make can be reverted at any time by any editor regardless of its value. If you want to participate here, you must honor your block.
If, however, you're only interested in trolling and being disruptive, one of the best ways to show that is not to honor your block by continuing to evade it simply because there are holes in the system. You may believe that it's our responsibility to physically prevent you from editing when blocked, but it's actually your responsibility to show the Misplaced Pages community that you value being a part of it enough to follow the community's rules and policies.
So, the ball is entirely in your court. I have no doubt that you can continue to find ways of editing here illicitly, but by doing so you are sending a gigantic "Screw you" message to every editor here who endeavors to follow the rules to the best of their abilities. Such behavior will inevitably end up with your being banned, either by name or by description as a "Long Term Abuser." It may take a while, since Wikipedians are notorious for being fair-minded and giving editors many more breaks than I, personally, would give them, but it will happen.
Having reviewed this whole thing - twice - I can make three definitive conclusions: 1) There is no consensus for an indef block at this time. I suspect (but can not prove) that the reason for this was the abrupt speed with which the original indef block came on. 2) Given the amount of bad blood I seem to be sensing here one or greater (or possibly fewer) of you need to seriously entertain the idea of avoiding each other because, quite frankly, tearing into one another over actions that may or may not have seen like good idea to an admin or an editor/contributor at the time solves nothing. 3) For purposes of the original matter, Joefromrandb (talk·contribs) shall be considered to be on his Standard Offer. If any claims of incivility or disruptive editing arise in the mainspace or on the talk pages of editors otherwise not involved in this thread for the next six months from this thread's closure then - and only then - may the community reconvene at ANI to consider the issue of an indef block, and any indef blocking will occur only after the thread has been reviewed and closed by an uninvolved admin. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:24, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Joefromrandb (talk·contribs) has a long block log for disruptive editing and incivility. He was released from his last incivility block 15 days ago. He's made 37 edits to user talk pages in total since that block, 2 of them, nothing but incivility and battleground approach to interacting with others:
and he's edit warred on Mum (disambiguation) (I've recommended the AN3 report be closed as I am opening this.)
Support Indef Block - This is a long term pattern of incivility towards other users and against WP:BATTLE. This editor seems unwilling to change and is being disruptive to the project with edit warring and incivility. Per WP:BLOCK, "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users". This is a clear cut case of disruption to Misplaced Pages. -- Dane19:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Toddst1: (edit conflict) Thank you for bringing this to our attention - Joefromrandb has been repeatedly warned and blocked for similar behaviour, and does not seem to want to change. I have blocked them indefinitely, as this behaviour is not conducive to this collaborative project. I'm disappointed its had to come to this, we should all be able to have differing opinions without reverting to incivility -- There'sNoTime19:21, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Moved here from User talk:Joefromrandb @There'sNoTime: Thanks, and with respect too I do agree with your point. For anyone that's watching this page/coming across this page later, indefinite does not mean infinite, and Joefromrandb can be unblocked by uninvolved administrator once there is a consensus to do so. I disagree with indef being issued so quickly (despite of the long history) without hearing the input from Joefromrandb at latest WP:AN/I report, but we will wait for more input from others. Alex Shih19:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I also thought the block was a bit too quick. As Bishonen said on Joe's talk page, Todd's civility warning could be reasonably interpreted as a provocation. On the other hand, Joe really does need to tone down the incivility. It's a difficult matter dealing with an uncivil individual. Warning him to stop will only further rile him up, but ignoring the problem does not make it go away. I therefore can't oppose the block very strongly; my only concern is that it came awfully quickly. Maybe Joe would get the message more clearly if there was a strong community consensus in favor of the block. Lepricavark (talk) 20:18, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict)You say Joe has made three edits to user talk pages in total since the previous block, Toddst1? That's very inexact; I make it seven, most of them to his own page. The two edits that you diff above as examples of "nothing but incivility and battleground approach to interacting with others" are also to his own page, responses to one post from Bkonrad and one from you, where he requests first one and then the other of you to fuck off. The context is a quarrel between the three of you on WP:AN3. The post from you was a templated NPA warning about Joe's rude response to Bkonrad. I don't think getting aggravated in such a context is heinous. And no, Toddst, "Please fuck off and go away", that you warned Joe about, isn't a personal attack. I'm sorry, but it just isn't, because there's nothing personal about it. Read WP:NPA. Your NPA warning about it, taken in the context of what seems to be a long conflict between Joe and you, appears frankly to have been designed to elicit another rude, impatient reply, and you got it. There'sNoTime, I think you were too quick with your indef, and I don't support it. Please don't close this thread yet. If we can spend weeks debating the indefinite block of the egregious POV-pusher Hidden Tempo, and end by appointing a fucking panel of editors to close that discussion, I think we can weigh the fate of an actual long-time useful content contributor for more than a few minutes. Bishonen | talk20:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC).
I am not making excuses. I've had my differences with Joe in the past and his behavior is highly problematic. I'm trying to help you see how your response might not have been ideal. Lepricavark (talk) 20:32, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I thank you all for your opinions, but I stand firmly by my block. Continued blatant incivility is causing this project to get more and more toxic. Despite possible provocation, this has been a continued and unwavering course of incivility and I believe an indefinite block, which allows Joefromrandb to state a case as to how they will continue to contribute in a civil manner like the majority of our long-time useful content contributors manage, is the best way forward -- There'sNoTime20:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, the block was too quick. The point of bringing an issue to AN/I is that the best course of action can be discussed. There was no time for anyone to actually do that, and Joefromrandb's action did not fall into any category of needing an immediate indef (apart from anything else, he hasn't edited for over 15 hours). Note: I don't believe I have had any previous dealings with this editor. Black Kite (talk)20:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I can put my hands up and say yes, this was a quick block - personally, I don't see how a discussion would affect the outcome. I'm happy to be proven wrong and will of course make way for any consensus that forms -- There'sNoTime20:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Nice day for shopping isn't it? (UPDATE: Even more shopping.) So far, Toddst1 has taken Jfromrndb to ANEW, now ANI, and in the meantime Oshwah's talk page- with the misleading claim that "he's made 3 edits to user talk pages"- and as I pointed out, two of these were to his own page. For a start we allow a greater degree of latitude on editors' own pages, secondly, Toddst1 leaving a 'No personal attacks' only-warning (as a response to what JfrRNB said on their own talk) was clearly designed to encourage them to respond in kind, and thus provide an excuse to bring them here. WP:BAITING applies; either that or it shows phenomonally bad judgement on Toddst1's part. Either way, ANI is getting played like a stradivarius. And frankly, as has been pointed out elsewhere, blocking a few minutes into an ANI, that's had almost no eyes upon it apart from involved parties is having a bit of a tin bath really. No offence. There was absolutely NO reason for Toddst to keep pestering the other editor on his own page- unless, of course, the purpose was this- and a block. — fortunavelut luna20:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Slapping an NPA warning on a pissed off editor is only going to rile that editor up even more and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out - If TNT came and slapped any template on my talkpage I too would've told them to fuck off - Personal messages go a long way and a lot further than templated messages,
The block should've been 2 weeks max IMHO, Also Indeffing someone 24 minutes after an ANI report was raised is asking for trouble. –Davey201020:51, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I think the block was too hasty too. There was no immediate need to do anything, and a discusson-based consensus on what to do would be a much better idea. I also see a bit of this going on here too. Take this as a !vote to undo the indef block. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but the point is that an NPA warning was incorrect and only really amounted to poking someone when they were already in a bad mood - and that escalated the matter. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
For clarity, if an uninvolved administrator would like to undo the indef block I won't object. I only ask that they ping me and that they work towards ensuring Joefromrandb cuts out the incivility -- There'sNoTime21:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
In my handful of interactions with Joefromrandb he's been an angry prick, but this block was way too precipitate. If nothing else, the subject of a block is more likely to accept its legitimacy (and that matters, if we want him to accept he needs to change his ways) if it comes after a community discussion. He's mostly constructive but he needs to cut out the caffeine, or something. EEng22:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I've taken a look at this and am leaning towards two conclusions. First, there is a plausible argument that TNT may have pulled the block trigger a bit quickly and w/o giving other editors an opportunity to chime in. But I'd not call it outside his discretion or otherwise improper. Secondly Joefromrandb's track record is itself very strong evidence that this is a user who just doesn't play and get along well with others. Even taking into consideration that a couple of his blocks were lifted early, we are looking at twelve blocks over roughly five years. Whether or not TNT might have been better off waiting a bit, I haven't read a credible argument that the block is excessive. Given the background I honestly am a bit surprised that they haven't incurred a long term block before. I'm strongly inclined to affirm the block, with the stipulation that Joefromrandb could apply for a standard offer in six months. But the OP asks a good question that no one has answered, "At what point do we say we've had enough?" I'd say now is a good point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Support for block and strong support and appreciation for NoTime's action. First off, admins are completely empowered by the community to block (including the implementation of indefs) whenever they think it is in the best interests of the project--so long as the block is undertaken purely for those good faith reasons. It makes no sense to insist that if TNT had come across this behaviour out "in the wild" of the project generally, he could have implemented this block, but because a process had begun here, the block was somehow harmful to the blocked party or the project's interests. That would be pro-forma/procedural silliness and has never been a standard adopted by the community (explicitly or implicitly) when admins come across disruptive behaviour in this space (or at any other noticeboard/community space). If anything, the fact TNT took action based on misconduct raised here (and noted the block here) gives additional protection to the blocked party, insofar as the reasons for the block itself will come under more scrutiny--and thus any particularly kneejerk or unjustified block would be more likely to be called out.
Nor is this a particularly borderline case. TNT's block was Joe's fifth this year alone, four of which were for incivility. And just weeks back from the last one, Joe has already ramped themselves up to "Fuck off" levels of caustic/disruptive behaviour. Clearly this user is not hearing the community's concerns, and may indeed just not have the temperament at present to participate in a project of this sort. And for those saying "Well, but a block like this is, which doesn't give the party a chance to defend themselves, will only make them angrier," I have a response of but one word: "So?" This user's anger (or more specifically, their apparent inability to control it) is exactly the issue here and holding other parties responsible for it in this context makes zero sense. Furthermore, it's not as if this user has not had an opportunity to engage with the community over these matters and been given an opportunity to understand and assimilate community expectations with regard to civility; they have been to ANI recently and each of the occasions on which they have received a lesser block, it has been received from a different admin, who would have explained the reasons for the block. How many different ways does the community have to try to explain the baseline conduct standards of this project before we view a disruptive user's inability to internalize those rules as a problem with the editor themselves?
Lastly, as has been noted above, an indef block is not per se a permanent one. If this editor can take time away from the project, analyze what went wrong here and come back to us with a genuine effort to identify and address those concerns, they will almost certainly be allowed to resume editing. They may be angry now, but anger will fade with time and hopefully allow them that kind of introspection. Or it won't, and they will continue to see everyone but themselves as the problem--in which case they shouldn't be on the project anyway. Regardless, I think that There'sNoTime did not just make a reasonable call here--they made the obvious one. The community of contributors here at ANI is often very vocal about the difficulty of getting admins to act on clear issues with alacrity, which makes the complaints in this case all the more peculiar, but regardless, I think TNT's action was 100% appropriate, justified, and in the best interests of the project. Snow01:07, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough--you have an admin's perspective on this--but, if these facts are insufficient, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where it would be much more fair for an admin to exercise their authority to institute a long-term block. In this situation we have a user who has been blocked five times in eight and half months, four of those resulting from the same issue. What would be the threshhold at which you think an indef for blatantly uncivil behaviour is warranted? Or do you think admins should not have recourse to indefs in cases of incivility? If so, that's another conversation and I strike no firm position on that--aside from generally worrying that WP:C has, in recent years, not been treated with the seriousness it deserves as a WP:PILLAR policy (and in my opinion maybe our most important in terms of making a collaborative endeavour work). Perhaps that's a conversation worth having, but insofar as admins are right now, under every relevant policy and community expectation, allowed the discretion of indefs in cases of recurrent problems, it's hard for me to imagine what more TNT would be expected to wait for in this instance. Snow03:39, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Please note that I changed the original filer's template from Template:vandal to Template:user. That is a courtesy we can afford an "angry prick". For the record, there are better ways to handle this than a block, let alone an indefinite block. Sure, there are editors who have been begging for an indefinite block, and some of those editors show up regularly on these boards. Joefromrandomb is not one of those. Drmies (talk) 03:12, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I propose WP:BOOMERANG block of the OP. (I've been quite critical of calls for BOOMERANG and those who love to apply it, as it has migrated from its original -- that a complainer is guilty of the same complaint they are registering, in the same instance. In this case I think the application is perfect, since admin Toddst1's complaint of WP:BATTLE clearly applies to Toddst1, an admin known for holding grudges and going after others based on incivility concerns, which is a lark, since there are more pernicious ways of metering out incivility, than saying a bad word in a blunt reply on user Talk, such as what Toddst1 has mastered: following around his pet targets, inciting them to respond, then trying to reap maximum damage, all the while never saying a bad word himself in nearly his entire editing history, just to be sure no one can put an objective finger on his own incivility. There is probably a Mother Goose fable about this, basically, wolf in sheep's clothing story. Toddst1 is a rogue admin, this proves to me no change after his dodge from being de-sysopped.) ¶ Admin TNT did a block from the hip, a surfacy "incivility block" to the max, which is supposed to be reserved for users doing egregious damage. After Toddst1 gave one of those to me, he further attempted to bury me alive, by removing my Talk page access. (TNT, how much background on these two respective users did you do? None? Thought so.) And about telling someone to "fuck off" their own Talk page, if you think that is uncivil, then please go tell admin Drmies, who is now also arbcom, as he several times told me that on his Talk page. (Hypocrisy much?) ¶ User Ad Orientem, go soak your head, trying to use an editor's block history against them. (Classic technique to bias others according to your wishes. Let's see, Toddst1 indef-blocked me, is that a strike against me, or against Toddst1?) --IHTS (talk) 03:26, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Ha, "hypocrisy much" says the editor who only shows up when there's an opportunity for digging up old grudges. For the record, Toddst1 is, on the whole, always, a fine, fine admin, and never finer than when he blocked you. Did I tell you to fuck off? Maybe so--on my own talk page, where you used to come trolling, back in the good old days.
We can have a discussion here about the value of the block, the value of the warning that led to the block, the speed with which the block was issues, the length of the block, the value of the editor relative to the disruption they cause (if any--some minor edit warring and a "fuck off" or two on their own talk), but for none of those things we need you. Stick to chess--you were doing fine there! Drmies (talk) 03:33, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Wrong, I'm here to object to abuse against Joe. (WP is an abuse pit. For years before I ever started as editor.) Yeah, thx for reminding (your past assessment of Toddst1 as "a fine admin"). You told me at least 3 times to "fuck off". (And I have no problem with that. I wasn't trolling you, you just couldn't tolerate truthful flak back, so the easiest technique to defeat that is what you did: "Fuck off my talk page." Cheap, but doesn't bother me. The hypocrisy lies in attempting to apply that uncivil comment against users versus against admins. Ditto the lack of recognition there are more pernicious ways to be uncivil than blunt responses containing a bad word.) If Toddst1 isn't being called out in this thread, then you really do need me, sorry if you don't like to hear that. (And you don't, because you're basically telling me to "fuck off" again, but like Toddst1, have mastered the ability to comment w/o incorporating choice words.) --IHTS (talk) 03:49, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Drmies has also called Toddst1 out in this thread, as have several other users. It seems you are too busy casting aspersions to get a good bearing on what is happening in this thread. Lepricavark (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
False equivalence; I am comfortable assuming that Drmies did not make those comments as part of an extended pattern of incivility that had already seen them censured by the community repeatedly throughout the year. Despite my high regard for them as an admin and member of the community in general, I actually do not approve of Drmies telling another user to "fuck off" under any circumstances. I think it is a clear, brightline violation of WP:C for any user and particularly problematic for an admin. But not all violation of policy (even the same policy) are alike in scope and context, and your analogy does not hold up here. This discussion is not about Drmies, it's about Joe, and Joe has already been the beneficiary of attention from the community this year telling them that they need to bring down the heat in their interactions with others. If they didn't take those warnings to heart in that context, then a) there's no reason for the community to assume the situation is going to get better on its own and b) Joe has no one to blame but themselves, at the end of the day. Snow04:13, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I thought I recalled a prior history between IHTS and Toddst1, one that didn't necessarily reflect well on the latter. In the admin's defense, both Joe and IHTS are known for uncollegial behavior, but that doesn't mean that Toddst1's behavior was optimal in any way. It is unfortunate, IHTS, that you chose to jump in here with a petulant rant, and telling another editor to "go soak your head" is not appropriate behavior. IHTS, this is not an elementary school playground. Lepricavark (talk) 03:43, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Point of order: Toddst1 is not an admin, though he used to be, long time ago now. The Arbcom of that time didn't share your good opinion of his admin actions, Drmies. Bishonen | talk03:52, 8 October 2017 (UTC).
Very specifically, he took a self-enforced one-year hiatus to escape an ongoing ANI and prob. an Arbcom case which was imminent and returned to prolific contributions after and only after he was desyssoped for in-activity.But IMHO, that is immaterial to the current case.Winged Blades of Godric06:04, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Wait, come again? What editor, page, or line of reasoning led you to the conclusion that looking at an editor's block log/previous history with the project was an exercise in bias, when the community has to consider how to deal with disruptive behaviou?. That is A) an incredibly curious conclusion and B) not a standard that has ever been endorsed by this community when it comes to grappling with longterm behaviour (logically and unsurprisingly enough). "Bias" would imply that someone was bringing in factors which obsfucate the matter under discussion and have no direct bearing on the matter. When considering how much WP:ROPE the community should/can afford to expend to an editor, the number of times they have been blocked (especially over a relatively short period of time and for the same issues) is clearly relevant--and evaluating past behaviour in general is outright necessary. Snow03:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment: Joefromrandb has been blocked 10 times in less than 5 years, for his continued incivility and continued battleground conduct. And yet, his behavior continues to worsen rather than improving. His hostility and disruptiveness – nearly five years of ever-increasing hostility, warring, incivility, vulgarity, disruption, trolling, vandalism, and a blatant unconcern and disregard for behavioral norms or Misplaced Pages guidelines/policies, and an apparent attitude that he can do what he likes without consequence – have in my opinion crossed into net negative, and he has reached the point of a WP:CIR block for his inability to work collaboratively with others. I therefore support the indef block with WP:STANDARDOFFER. Either WP:CIVIL is a policy we uphold, or it isn't. Softlavender (talk) 04:23, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment--While the block was a bit too rapid, and the complainant's behaviour looked provocative to an extent, on an evaluation of his battle-ground uncivil behaviour with those with whom he dis-agreed, I strongly support the indef.This may be well-considered to be a cumulative result of his long-term behaviour rather than a reflection on this part. incident.Also echo Snow and GRing.Obviously, if John posts an un-block req. and is willing to change his manner(s), there's no need for the block to continue.which seems snow-impossible, given his latest edits.It's seriously problematic when certain editors think content-creation etc. excuses you from 3RR etc. and the subject of the disc. begins to think that his version of policies is the one that shall be abided by.Winged Blades of Godric05:18, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment Blocking before discussion had even got underway was a poor decision. Per Bish: "If we can spend weeks debating the indefinite block of the egregious POV-pusher Hidden Tempo, and end by appointing a fucking panel of editors to close that discussion, I think we can weigh the fate of an actual long-time useful content contributor for more than a few minutes". The behaviour of the complainant was certainly provocative. "Fuck off" is not a personal attack. I agree with Drmies that there are better ways to handle this than a block, let alone an indefinite one. As, I think, Carrite has been known to say - this is a shop-floor, not a vicar's tea party. When improving the encyclopedia becomes secondary to "ooh, he said a rude word" then it is the encyclopedia that suffers. Oh, and who's John? -- Begoon06:20, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
With respect, Begoon, I'm not sure why people keep asserting "'Fuck off' is not a WP:personal attack", because I have not seen so much as a single person make the assertion that is is. Nor is anyone saying that the behaviour in question was inappropriate because it involved a "rude word". Both of those strike me as blatant straw man arguments, conscious or otherwise. This isn't about sensitivity to vulgarity, when it comes to someone using the phrase "fuck off"; surely you recognize that the phrase, used in the context of a personal dispute, has meaning beyond mere vulgarity. I suspect most of the editors in this community couldn't give a fig if someone went around saying "Fucking brilliant work on the vandalism task force, friend. You're a great contributor and if anyone says differently, I don't give a fuck." Nobody is complaining about that sort of thing. But when someone tells another editor to fuck off as their means of dispute resolution, then yes that's clearly a brightline violation of WP:C, and yes it's a problem, regardless of how comfortable we might be with the word itself. And when this is done by a user who has already been blocked numerous times recently for incivility, it becomes particularly worth comment. One doesn't have to be a prude/particularly sensitive to vulgarity in order to find this particular usage in this particular context offensive and disruptive. Snow07:19, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
With respect, Snow Rise (inclusion of which means I can now continue with impunity, because I've curtsied to the civility gods, yes?), I don't 'recognize' that the use of that phrase, under provocation, merits any kind of a block, no. I'm much more concerned about faux-civility tactics used by POV pushers and as a technique to "win" an argument or conflict than I am by this particular usage. -- Begoon07:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. Your use of the term "faux civility" suggests we have fundamentally different notions about what the word civility itself means. Civility is not (at least insofar as we generally use it on this project) a state of mind so much as a standard of conduct. And it's not about being affirmatively nice, it's about avoiding certain blatantly disruptive behaviours. You can be civil towards someone at this standard even if you don't agree with them, like them, or are quite certain they are being a total idiot. And without going through any particular extra effort to be nice, for that matter. So "faux" doesn't even come into the analysis for me. And whatever we feel, WP:C is one of the WP:5P. No, it doesn't (and is not meant to) solve all problems--your POV pusher, for example, or any manner of WP:disruptive user man we might use as a boogey-man to excuse being uncivil with others--but it surely addresses one particularly significant problem. Because we have policies to deal with those other issues, but those can only be applied if we first surmount the much lower standard of WP:C--or nothing else can ever get done. That's why this community enshrined that value as one of its foundational policies. If someone cannot negotiate such a low bar as not getting blocked four times in 8.5 months for civility violations (which is actually pretty hard to do even once), that's a problem for this community, plain and simple. Snow09:13, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Sure, we can agree to disagree on this. I am personally terrified by the number of times I see tenuous "civility concerns" inappropriately used, often as an attempted cudgel to unbalance or derail a discussion. That's much more of a concern to me than an editor, under provocation, telling someone to "fuck off" from their own talk page. (Oh, and my alleged "blatant straw-men" have asked me to put forward the NPA template on Joe's page as evidence against their 'strawness'... I told them to fuck off, obviously, but they were adamant...). -- Begoon09:32, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
With respect, Snow Rise, I was the first to point out that "fuck off" is not a personal attack because Toddst1, not TNT, had indirectly (and provocatively) said it was, by posting a "No personal attacks" template on Joe because Joe had said "fuck off" to Bkonrad. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I thought I was. For "With all due respect", see WP:Wikispeak#R"respect, n., Often used as in with respect, or with all due respect, euphemisms for I think you're talking bollocks". Bishonen | talk09:01, 8 October 2017 (UTC).
I'm not seeing where I implied that you didn't say that, Bish. As for "with respect", you're free to cite any essay you like as justification for not WP:AGFing that I mean it sincerely, or you can take me at my word that I do. Snow09:13, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
You're not seeing that, really? Snow Rise, I'll risk sounding like Mr Bennet in Pride and Prejudice when Mary had gone on playing the piano for too long ("Child, you have delighted us long enough"), and ask if you wouldn't you agree you have contributed enough bytes to this discussion now? Bishonen | talk09:45, 8 October 2017 (UTC).
First off, what a patronizing way to frame a sentiment that, at it's core, is already patronizing. Second, I didn't invite you to engage my comment, which was not directed at you. If you choose to do so (and especially if you do so for the purpose of suggesting I am being insincere), you can't take then take umbrage/try to highroad me with implications of being to single-minded if I respond. Snow10:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Anyone can comment to challenge an apparent error without your invitation, eg "I'm not sure why people keep asserting "'Fuck off' is not a WP:personal attack", because I have not seen so much as a single person make the assertion that is is" (my emphasis) when the OP did exactly that by posting an NPA warning. I was going to point out the same thing myself, but I got an edit conflict with Bish. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:21, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Sometimes, Bish, "with respect" means "with respect". I use it occasionally, and never as cowardly cover-my-ass code for "I think you're talking bollocks". My experience with Snow Rise strongly suggests that they never use it like that, either, and there is nothing here to suggest otherwise. Pretty clear AGF failure there, Bish. It appears Bish and Boing have a point as to NPA, Snow, and I AGF that you just missed that. I'll resist the temptation to go all meta on these larger issues, but I'll say that this dialogue has been (mostly) a refreshing if brief change from the standard fare on this page. ―Mandruss☎11:46, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Support indef block - On my tenth Wiki-birthday I am going to stand once again for the blocking of long-term abusers. This, right now, is the point where we have to say enough is enough to those with multiple blocks who show clear intent to continue their disruptive statements. In the decade I've been here the editing environment has grown increasingly toxic, so much so that recently I usually find I have better things to do with my time. We are discouraging new editors by allowing bullies and name-callers to dominate this project. I'm sick of excuses, and enablers. I salute the OP and the block as a first step in the right direction. Jusdafax08:08, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Support block TNT hits the nail on the head here with the phrase "continued blatant incivility" which pretty much describes Joefromrandb's behaviour. Like it or not, last time I checked WP:CIVIL was still a policy, and unless you want to change that then TNT's block was absolutely correct, and I applaud him for daring to actually enforce CIVIL, which it seems many admins have just given up on- and judging by this thread, you can certainly see why. jcc (tea and biscuits) 10:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Oppose block - really, "fuck off" is not a personal attack. And jumping to an immediate indef after less than an hour discussion is concerning. Remember - encyclopedia. We're here to write an encyclopedia. Collaboration doesn't mean everyone behaves exactly alike - it means that sometimes you're going to run into people with different standards of collaboration than yourself. Keep in mind the goal of the project and it becomes a lot easier to say "gee... is this really worth the effort I've expended on it" - which, quite frankly, the source of this dispute shows clearly. The encyclopedia would all be better off if editors worried less about cuss words and more about accurate sourcing. Ealdgyth - Talk12:19, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
@Ealdgyth: First of all, WP:CIV exists. Second, are you aware of their exhaustive block log containing blocks that were placed for this exact same tendentious behavior? Boiling this down to just one usage of "fuck off" displays shortsightedness. Nihlus12:26, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Weirdly enough, yes, I'm quite aware that WP:CIV exists. Of course, that's because I've watched it be used over and over as a hammer to get rid of opponents over the years I've been on this project. Heck, I even pointed it out in my RfA, and said then that I wasn't a big fan of its enforcement. Personally, I think keeping in mind the whole goal of the project doesn't display short-sightedness... it displays the correct attitude. Your milage/kilometerage may vary. Ealdgyth - Talk12:30, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
You didn't speak to the long list of previous blocks. And unless I am misreading something, I find it odd that you would oppose something merely because you dislike the policy that others have used to bolster their arguments. I mean, like it or not, it is one of the five pillars, so I hesitate to say your attitude is the "correct" attitude. Nihlus12:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
User:Nihlus, I really don't want to go all "listen to your elders", but in this case please listen to your elders. Ealdgyth is an editor whose quality and experience, not to mention common sense, is pretty much unmatched; if she says "fuck off" is not a personal attack, that should be taken seriously, not responded to by asking if she knows of our civility rules--she does. I wouldn't say it in the way she said, but I would say, and I have, that "fuck off" isn't really blockable (certainly not on one's own talk page), and I say that from experience and from conviction, though I suppose this case might prove me wrong. What youngsters (yes) frequently fail to appreciate is that civility is difficult to enforce, for a couple of basic reasons, one of which is that one person's incivility is not another's, and another is, given that there is a broad range of levels of incivility, it is not easy to enforce that. So it's much less about correctness and the application of policy then it is about other things, and it is clear that Ealdgyth and I are not in agreement (I think Black Kite is with us) with the application that prevailed here. Finally, I think that attempting to summarize Ealdgyth's conciseness as shortsightedness is not fair to her, and worse, you are missing out on what could be a good learning opportunity. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 03:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
@Drmies: That's a rather needlessly patronizing comment. I never said nor implied that saying "fuck off" was a personal attack; I said it was uncivil, which it was and still is. And I never asked her if she knew the civility rules; I merely stated they existed in response to the implied reasoning that nothing was wrong with saying "fuck off". And while I can respect the notion that civility is hard to enforce in certain situations, the line needs to be drawn somewhere, especilly for habitually uncivil users. And implying that the "fuck off" was the only reason for the block is a display of shortsightedness as it fails to address the other multitude of arguments presented by others; this is why I asked her to address the nine previous blocks, which she has yet to do. Nihlus04:03, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Nihlus, if u could take a break from digging your own grave, w/ you please relocate your generalized "Support block" rant out of the discussion between There'sNoTime & me, where it doesn't belong, to the !voting section where it belongs? Thx. --IHTS (talk) 04:21, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
@Drmies: >"elders". And Nihlus has a point: "Fuck off" may not be a personal attack, but it's mildly rude and offputting at best, and not conducive to a collegial editing environment. Wouldn't it be much simpler if, instead of replying "fuck off" and getting people's feathers all ruffled, people would turn the other cheek, so to speak, and just ignore or remove comments that tempt them to make that response? Personally, when I get that rising feeling to say unpleasant things, I find it's best to take a step back from the wiki and do something else for a couple hours. Think how much drama could be avoided if everyone did that. Ks0stm08:51, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I doubt TNT feels the need for validation, but since we're doing this, clearly I Oppose this block, both in duration (as the blocking admin now acknowledges) and indeed in its neccesity, due to the previous provocation. Unless of course TNT decides to block Toddst1 for unfounded accusations of personal attacks which are of course personal attacks :) — fortunavelut luna12:34, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Support blockin its current, 3–month form. My concerns about the speed of the block, and the behavior of the OP, notwithstanding, Joe's incivility has reached a point where it needs to be addressed strongly. An indef block is still a step or two away, but a three–month enforced Wikibreak is nothing to trifle with and will hopefully help Joe to see the need to adjust his behavior once his block expires. Lepricavark (talk) 12:35, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Support increasing back to indef Joe's latest posts, such as these , , show that he still doesn't get it and likely never will. His strawman that he is being asked to "prostrate himself before you and beg to be forgiven" is beyond ridiculous. He has tried to turn himself into the victim because he is being asked to abide by our civility pillar as an unblocking condition. He has made his bed, and now he is determined to lie in it. Lepricavark (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
No. (I'm not admin or an admin wannabe, whose conducts s/b "at a higher standard". p.s. You've misused word "ironic"; the word you were looking for was "inconsistent". p.p.s. Can we gunk this up w/ further baiting badgering? Does "whispering" in small font make it better? --IHTS (talk) 23:51, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Feel free to feel baited, if that floats your boat. P.S. Small font isn't whispering, it's a peanut gallery comment. Have a nice day! Blackmane (talk) 01:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
No, please, you (& AutomaticStrikeOut) feel free , it's the notorious ANI cesspool, afterall (where your "peanuts" = little turds). --IHTS (talk) 01:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Support indef block until Joe can show that he can WP:GETTHEPOINT. Lepricavark's diffs provide ample proof that this will not stop, so the community should wash its hands of this user and stop wasting its time. Nihlus15:05, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Support admin discretion - If someone is claiming that There'sNoTime has acted outside admin discretion, I can't see it; please respond here. If someone is claiming a violation of WP:BLOCK, I can't see it; please respond here. If someone is claiming that There'sNoTime has violated some other relevant policy, I can't see it; please respond here. If someone feels that There'sNoTime should be relieved of the mop, this is not the venue. If someone feels that admins have too much discretion in general, this is not the venue. The rest is noise. Those non-admins who feel they know enough to haul an admin over the coals over a within-policy action should be required to spend 3 months as an admin (and actually do controversial things with the mop during that time.) ―Mandruss☎16:24, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Support indefinite block - A long block log shows he may not learn from a temporary block so I think he should be banned altogether from the site. Also, seeing him use the phrase "fuck off" in response to this shows a level of immaturity when handling this which does not show good conduct from a Wikipedian. The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 01:49, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
'Comment I've seen administrators use the phrase "f*** off" and nobody blocked them for it. (Only twice mind). Why don't we inform him this is his last chance and give him an indef block if he doesn't get the message? TomBarker23 (talk) 15:06, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
If admins aren't warned "last chance", and their conduct is "at a higher standard", then how is that suggestion logical? --IHTS (talk) 23:45, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Moving forwards
As I've mentioned in this thread, I blocked quickly. I can see now that waiting for additional comments on the matter is helpful, though currently I'm not swayed to a position of thinking I was mistaken in placing an indef block. I'll welcome a discussion into my block if the community wishes to go that direction, but the point of this thread was wholly incivility by Joefromrandb. So, for the sake of trying to "get things done", what would the community like to happen now in regards to the original report? -- There'sNoTime07:10, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
For the record, I disagree with any mention of standing offer here. Joefromrandb is not a vandal nor sockpuppet, nor was this a community-based indefinite block. I think moving forward we should discuss 1) if the block was needed 2) the appropriate length of the block 3) what the editor needs to do. Earlier this year Floquenbeam has proposed to Joefromrandb to restrict themselves to 1RR, and I think it's time to turn that into community enforcement. Alex Shih07:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I too disagree with a standard offer for the same reasons, as mentioned on my talk page, I'd unblock immediately if Joefromrandb put their hands up and committed to continue working here without these little outbursts -- There'sNoTime08:01, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Right, having looked at this, and my actions (and having taken on-board the comments, both supporting and opposing) I'm going to undo my indefinite block and replace it with a three month block (the next highest duration in TW after the previous 1 month block). I'm doing this because my initial block was too quick, as nearly everyone above has pointed out, but I am not entirely removing it as I still stand by a block being a reasonable result even now. I appreciate there are some who support the indef block, and would like to note that your support was noted in making this decision. I believe a discussion as to how we deal with this should be had, but I will recuse myself from that. If continued discussion here finds that any block was not required, an uninvolved administrator may remove it without notifying me. Thanks -- There'sNoTime08:29, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Incomprehensible. (The complaints of "too quick" were re blocking at all, not re length of block. Your logic is that because you agree re "too quick", you're retaining the block but adjusting duration?! After complaints of "too quick" came in this is how you responded: "I don't see how a discussion would affect the outcome. I'm happy to be proven wrong and will of course make way for any consensus that forms." If you believe a "too quick" consensus has formed, that means any block was premature. You also responded: "I thank you all for your opinions, but I stand firmly by my block. Continued blatant incivility is causing this project to get more and more toxic." which clearly shows an over-zealous civility enforcement mentality that has been discussed to incredible lengths in historical ANIs & arbcom cases. Really, are you even aware?) --IHTS (talk) 10:27, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I clearly can't make everyone happy. I'd rather be known for civility enforcement than incivility enabling. Now, I'm gonna go back to improving some medical articles, perhaps we could all find something more constructive to do? -- There'sNoTime10:39, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I support this block fully. Before today, this user had been blocked 9 times for tendentious editing and incivility. He has a multi-year history of telling others to fuck off and making belittling comments such as "Does that make you feel better?" in response to any an all blocking admins (or calling it pussy shit). The responses above about how this block was inappropriate are baffling. Users should not be permitted to be hostile towards other editors in any situation, let alone after being given multiple opportunities to change their behaviors, and other users shouldn't be asked to deal with it. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, WP:EQ, and WP:CIVIL all come into play. Nihlus11:01, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
How patronizing: "perhaps we could all find something more constructive to do?". Your RfA had 13 support !votes showing at least some "concern/pause/hesitation" re promoting someone w/ such shortage of content experience. Your statement: "It's clear from my article contributions that I do not find content creation as captivating as others do, but instead that I wish to volunteer my time and energy into areas where I have both skill and an interest." I guess that included patrolling ANI as civility cop? No mention of that at RfA. Your "I believe an understanding of content related policies and being able to empathise with content creators is important - I don't believe this experience can be gained solely from creating content, but can be gleamed also from interacting with both articles and content creators themselves." elicited in a support !vote: "I would just caution them that the only real way to understand the content creation side of WP is to actually do it." Anything learned here? Four support !voters dismissed the relevance of content creation experience, typically: "The myopic focus of some with content creation at RFA doesn't sway me. Yes, an admim must be able to understand the hurdles dedicated content creators go through, but where would we be without admins who ". I guess right here, dealing w/ the fallout? --IHTS (talk) 03:29, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
IHTS, I seem to recall you complaining in the past about how ANI is a cesspool. Guess what, it's editors like yourself who make it one. You've added not one iota of value to this discussion, and your further attempts at derailment by bringing up TNT's RfA demonstrate that you are incapable of contributing here in a productive manner. You have the rare talent for arguing with people whether they agree or disagree with you, and you are fortunate that your IDHT behavior hasn't yet earned you the same fate as Joefromrandb. Before you lash out at me for making these remarks, consider that I am employing your own strategy of personally discrediting one's opponents. The difference is that, unlike you, I actually have something to work with. Lepricavark (talk) 14:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Badger much? Here or RfA. Still can't get over the criticisms I left @ your Talk years ago, huh? Go away AutomaticStrikeOut. --IHTS (talk) 04:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Your "I'd rather be known for civility enforcement than incivility enabling." does not compute. (If I don't volunteer to leave my state to fight a forest fire in California, am I "enabling" the fire?) --IHTS (talk) 03:47, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I note that whilst there has been much commentary on the fact that this is Jfrnb's nth block. Indeed, much reiterated commentary- in case we haven't got the message, perhaps. On a side note- per Godwin's Law I won't mention who (IIRC) originally said it- but there is a sense here that "If you say something often enough... people will believe it." Yes the numbers are true, the conclusions drawn, less so. He went block-free between 2013 to February just gone; four years. Has anybody actually ever enquired- attempted to find out- what if anything happened in February, that all of a sudden, after four years, he went to Defcon1 and has hardly come back from it since? WP =/= THERAPY, of course, and we are not psychologists- but surely we have a duty to protect the encyclopaedia? And by that I mean attempt at least basic editor retention. — fortunavelut luna12:38, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: The concern with editor retention should be what keeping someone who displays such uncivil behavior does to others, not the other way around. We shouldn't strive to keep people around whose behavior contravenes multiple policies. Nihlus12:45, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, it's certainly possible that we have different operating philosophies; mine is more along the lines that their isn't a "concern with editor retention"; there are "concerns with editor retention." That there are shades of grey, degrees of culpability and responsbility, blame isn't binary, most things go two ways, and that a community ==/== consistency. But that's why we do this, surely. — fortunavelut luna12:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC).
Eh. I was OK with the indef but downgrading this to a 3 month seems reasonable. That said, I am getting tired of seeing editors get a pass on persistent gross abuse of CIVIL, often with the excuse that they are productive editors. On which note I'd like to thank There'sNoTime for their very calm and even tempered response to this discussion. And in closing I would caution Joefromrandb that they had best work on their communications skills. If their recent pattern of behavior continues after coming off block I would support an indefinite block, w/o further recourse to ANI. Now unless there is something that has not been said about this issue I am going to move along. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I'll take Ad Orientem's "Eh" and expand it to what young people call "Meh". I'm not really happy about expanding a 1 month block to a 3 month block on the basis of a couple of comments on the editor's own talk page (for which we have far more latitude), at least one of which was prompted by poking from the OP of this thread, who I'm sure will be very satisfied with their work in this situation. Some sort of a block was needed (more for the 3RR than the "incivility"), but I'm not sure that's best served by admins throwing out knee-jerk random blocks in the middle of an ANI discussion as seems to have happened in this case. "Meh", indeed. Black Kite (talk)14:37, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth at this point, when I see an editor coming off a one-month block edit-warring against the MOS and citing irrelevant guidelines (as in ); being their fourth (maybe fifth, depending whether you count the extension in August) block this year for similar situations; making personal attacks in edit summaries (as in the '961 diff above); and when attempts to discuss the content in the dispute are met with gross incivility, I think I'd be at least considering indef. Something needs to change and clearly limited-duration blocks are not doing the job. The number of editors above who seek to excuse gross incivility is depressing. Responding to a civil attempt to discuss a dispute by telling someone to "fuck off" is never civil in any situation. Some above compare Misplaced Pages to a shop floor (or as sometimes happens to a pub common room), as thought "fuck off" was a perfectly civil article of interaction in those places. Of course it isn't; those are just places where incivility is commonly tolerated. Misplaced Pages is not such a place; that it is not such a place is not my opinion, it's one of the five pillars. And for what it's worth, of my two local pubs, in one you'd be asked to leave and the other you'd likely start a fight, which is the point of the pillar, really; a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger - not what we're trying to achieve. GoldenRing (talk) 08:35, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
@There'sNoTime: Regardless of whether there is justification for a block of a productive editor, you didn't take the time to weigh factors like his block log against others like the provocation he received and the blatant inaccuracy of the original posting. An ANI discussion really should be allowed to explore these factors in any established editor's case, and we don't need admins displaying an itchy trigger-finger on the block button so soon after a debate has started. You should consider your position. --RexxS (talk) 22:01, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
^^ What he said. There seem to be some vociferous people here with axes to grind (what's new?) but one thing is certain: TNT acted inappropriately and even their change of heart is rule-bound beyond sensibility. Admins need to use discretion, not just rules. - Sitush (talk) 00:06, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Please do - I'm sick to death of seeing this (and the related whining). Turns out the only thing I regret in this block is backing down from the indef. I've fucking had it with content creators getting a free pass on civility. If anyone has a problem with my block to the point where they believe it needs a full review, feel free to make a thread. -- There'sNoTime16:49, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
You are one mixed up cookie. If you "regret backing down from the indef", then restore it, since it is you who is otherwise "whining". p.s. What a shining example of admin. p.p.s. The "sick to death" response more appropriately applies to your admin judgments/actions/comments. Echoes of Kafziel and "the puling masses". Do you think you w/ have passed your recent RfA had you expressed this same battleground attitude there? --IHTS (talk) 02:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I honestly don't think I have a battleground attitude, and I thought this block would help. Clearly I'm wrong. From a message on my talk page, I've undone my block so that other admins can make a better call. You're probably correct calling me a mixed up cookie, as I've now changed my mind three times regarding this, I'm confused. I thought I was helping -- There'sNoTime06:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Clarification: Flip-flopping doesn't make anyone mixed up, it's illogical rationales that do. Putting thought & communication ahead of action never hurts, always helps. Me thinks this ANI essentially forced that. Live & learn. This editor appreciates your unblock. Cheers, --IHTS (talk) 08:18, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Disruptive IP editor associated with WikiInAction
In the past few days, an anonymous user (or users) posting from a range of IP addresses (listed below) has reverted at least one article with prior consensus, and claimed that volunteer editors are secretly being paid by me (a disclosed paid contributor) to approve changes I have proposed on talk pages, among other lesser and equally spurious charges. To be very clear, these allegations are false, without evidence, and disruptive to normal processes.
Brian Krzanich, CEO of Intel and a current client, where the IP has derailed an edit request I posted just yesterday; see Talk:Brian Krzanich
As purported evidence, the IP editor points to rather unhinged threads on Reddit's WikiInAction, including here and here. Finally, the IP editor also has a similar argumentative style and claims that my work violates EU disclosure laws as did the indef'd Inlinetext, who had previously tried to derail my proposed edits to the Mandell page in April (see here) although I have no way to know if there is in fact a connection.
Here are the IP addresses that have so far engaged in this behavior:
I (quite purposefully) do not spend much time at AN/I, so I am not quite sure what to do here. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 18:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Response : I am not connected to what is published on Reddit. I am not IP 103.xxx or the other user he has named. I have strong objections founded in policy to the way WWB_Too is conducting his paid editing business by using unsuspecting Wikipedians who insert his content in good faith. I agree with the Reddit poster that User:GabeIglesias was paid to insert content on behalf of WWB_Too after all established editors avoided doing so. Such behaviour on Misplaced Pages only demeans the article subjects and highlights that they are using paid editors to overcome the strong anti-paid editing sentiment of the ordinary unpaid volunteers who are the backbone of this movement. If at all I am to be blocked, let DocJames block me. 101.57.250.211 (talk) 02:18, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Think this is yet another example of a Public Promotion company subcontracting WP editing to a cheap Indian firm. Block IP range. Aspro (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
What exactly are you implying here ? Which is the Public promotion company ? Who has subcontracted WP editing to a cheap Indian firm ? Which is that cheap Indian firm ? These are serious allegations designed to belittle editors of Misplaced Pages who opt not to open accounts. 101.57.250.211 (talk) 02:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure what's going on beyond simple harassment of a disclosed paid editor, but I merged the new draft for Brian Krzanich's article, after making a couple of content changes to maintain some controversial yet noteworthy information. My comments are on the talk page. TimTempleton23:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
There is no harassment of WWB_Too. Apparently he used an undisclosed paid editor to insert his paid content draft on Robert A. Mandell which another IP 103.30.143.51 objected to and reverted. Are we to assume that it is now policy that drafts suggested by disclosed paid editors can be directly inserted into articles without achieving consensus on talk pages first ? Do such drafts by disclosed paid editors get some special status under policy ? If so, why not just handover all editing activiy to paid editors so that unpaid volunteers can all go home. Also, I am an Intel stock holder and I would like to know if Intel is indulging in such kind of manipulative activities on Misplaced Pages ? 101.57.250.211 (talk) 02:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I will let the smart people address all this talk of servers and whatnot. In the meantime, I reverted the IP and reinstated the new/merged version of the Krzanich article, with thanks to timtempleton. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment this is essentially a content dispute between a small set of editors. Hence I have listed the Robert A. Mandell dispute at WP:DRN
Comment - No. As presented at WP:DRN, it was a conduct dispute involving allegations of undisclosed paid editing. DRN is not a forum for such disputes. WP:COIN is, and this noticeboard is. The thread at DRN was closed as a conduct dispute. Besides, DRN does not accept disputes that are also pending here. Deal with it here (or don't deal with it). Robert McClenon (talk) 03:32, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh really. And you just happened to be passing through India when you decided to troll and harass editors here. Your easy familiarity with the Wiki suggests to me that you have history here; do you have, or have you had in the past, an account here? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:14, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Inappropriate & verging on a BLP violation. If you have evidence of an actual COI, present it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is 'Oh really' a statement or a question ? Yes, I just happen to be travelling around India just now. No, I did not decide to troll and harass editors here. I have no history here. As a Misplaced Pages administrator surely you have complete access to Misplaced Pages's history records from which you can answer your own questions (which in any case I am not obliged to respond to under very strong EU privacy regime). Instead of throwing around terms like "harass", "troll" and "disruptive" why not address the issue of how Misplaced Pages administrators see Misplaced Pages's European readers are protected against ghostwritten paid content on Misplaced Pages articles. Why is there no in-article disclosure under WP:COVERT, or are we Europeans expected to go about reading user and talk pages to discover commercial affiliations of American content writers ? What is the evidence for this paid editor's mischievous allegation that I am associated with Wikiinaction ? What is the evidence that WWB_Too is acting on behalf of Brian Krzanich (as distinguished from Intel) ? For regulatory anti-trust reasons I flatly state It is not conceivable that Brian Krzanich has authorised WWB_Too to rewrite his Misplaced Pages article. It is a very serious issue for Brian Krzanich if he has done so. Accordingly I state that WWB_Too is lying if he states he is acting for Brian Krzanich. If other admins like "Drmies" (who never went to law school to understand the issue I highlight) are now openly inserting paid edits from Mr. Krzanich by "demanding cuts" and "at least a week in the condo on the Gulf Coast" from the paid editors, it is a serious issue for us dour Europeans. In case of Mr. Krazanich (BTW did I mention I am an Intel stakeholder) I believe that the blatantly advertising text inserted is supplied by Intel (not Krzanich) via North of Nine Communications, and the copyright of the text probably vests in Intel. Accordingly, I had asked WWB_Too for a copy of all the contracts involved which he has refused to provide. Instead WMF's user "Drmies", who claims to to be a senior administrator / arbitrator (without a law degree), was induced to add Intel's copyrighted material against expectations of reward. Usually when "pump and dump" scams take place by rewriting Misplaced Pages entries it implies that the corporate behind it is in deep (usually regulatory) trouble. NB: "INTEL" is not listed by Nof9 as their client on the North of Nine Communications website, further evidence that WWB_Too is lying (or puffing himself up). 101.57.254.247 (talk) 02:30, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Closing as the previous report was only closed 6 days ago, and none of the edits since then requires additional intervention. Andrewa has graciously taken the role to mediate (relevant texts can be found in User talk:Andrewa, User talk:Launebee and User talk:XIIIfromTOKYO). Launebee is advised that the action of both parties are under scrutiny, and the editor should work toward settling the dispute instead of bringing them to the noticeboard again in haste. Alex Shih02:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1. said I violated the French intellectual property law by creating a disambiguation Misplaced Pages article with the name of a trademark, twice (and did not remove his other accusation of violation of French criminal law)
2. implied I am part of a conspiracy to target French users by legal actions, linking to something from January 2017 (and did not remove his statements regarding his other conspiracy theory) and
3. personally attacked me by writing "Many contributors… have been legally threaten, harrassed, and disgusted away by" me.
What is needed here?: All of these diffs claimed to show misconduct come from discussion of the previous ANI megathread that was just archived yesterday. If there were noncompliance with the topic ban (I don't see such a claim), that would be one thing. Dragging XIII to ANI for being arguably unfriendly on his/her own user talk page in a discussion about the dispute that led to the topic ban in the immediate wake of it being instituted strikes me as rather excessive. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:59, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
User:Mendaliv, These diffs are – all three of them – from after the warning (aside from the topic ban) that he is clearly not abiding to, with for example new accusations of violating the law (for having created a Misplaced Pages article). In only one day and half. --Launebee (talk) 00:18, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I understood that much. I don't see the edits you point out as meriting the urgent intervention of an outside administrator, which is the purpose of this noticeboard. The issues you have presented, respectfully, strike me as minimally problematic, especially given the extremely short period of time that has passed since the previous thread was archived. I don't see anything untoward, honestly. The concern about intellectual property law and your edits don't strike me as any more egregious than pointing out possible copyright violations. So, no, I don't see any purpose to this thread and recommend closure to allow the outcome of the previous thread to better take effect. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 01:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
The top of this page says This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Misplaced Pages that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors: can you show me the word "urgent"?
Also, since you say this is "too soon", what is the required lag between when the warning was received and when it's actually enforced? Do violators get 48 hours or is the grace period longer? --Calton | Talk08:42, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It's a judgement call I think. I'll of course go with consensus here, but I'd like to give it a bit more time. See further comments below. Andrewa (talk) 09:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Usually its at least a couple of days while a user gets it out of their system on their talkpage/has it clarified by an admin etc etc. Short of 'Well fuck you I'm ignoring it!' almost all admins will given editors a reasonable grace period, unless its clear they have no intention to behave. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:25, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Just as the presence of a fringe on the flag does not convert a court of law into an admiralty court, the absence of words like "urgent" or "important" or "things that actually matter" in a summary, instructional description of the purpose of a noticeboard at the top of ANI turn it into a place where people may vomit whatever personal gripes they may have, no matter how petty. As an aside, before clamoring for "enforcement", you might want to consider what you're asking to be enforced. Here, it's a warning. The consequences of repeating that conduct isn't a block, isn't a ban, and isn't necessarily a new ANI thread; those would be the consequences of violating a topic ban, or perhaps a clear final warning. There are at least two admins already handling this situation at XIII's user talk. Let it go at that. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:36, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Just pointing out that if you're going to gas on about rules and guidelines, it's perhaps best to refer to ACTUAL rules and guidelines instead of making things up. Just saying. So your Freeman on the Land analogy works, just not in the way you intended. --Calton | Talk00:35, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't say anything about rules or guidelines. I'm talking about actual practice. If you're unfamiliar with the practice of these boards to refuse to take action on this sort of dispute, then I would suggest you take to observing more threads before commenting. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:10, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I have been observing the actual practice of the board, genius, and for longer than you (if you are unfamiliar with editors you are trying to to be condescending to on ANI, then I would suggest you take to actually looking up editor contributions before commenting). The actual accepted -- and acceptable-- practice, according to MY observation, is that if someone persists in bad/sanctioned behavior that they at least are warned. The lazy -- and for some, most common -- reaction is to claim ANI is too busy/settle it amongst yourselves, which will lead to the inevitable reappearance of the problem. --Calton | Talk14:44, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
It is somewhat ironical that I decided to take an interest in AN/I after my first two attempts to refer personal attacks here were both auto-archived without any admin even looking at them as far as I can tell. Personally I think we need to be far stricter on personal attacks than we have been in the past, with earlier intervention, before things escalate and other editors follow the appalling examples some set. Andrewa (talk) 21:47, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Facepalm Are you seriously trying to turn this into a pissing match over edit count or time since registration? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 02:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I see no attacks, and no conduct worth addressing at this time. There are already admins watching XIII's user talk page. You should go edit Misplaced Pages and ignore what XIII is doing. You should also respect XIII's request to stay off his/her user talk page. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 10:00, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Support close. What we have here is the eighth appearance at AN/I of an unfortunate personal feud between two otherwise constructive contributors, based on a bitter content dispute over French universities. One of them is a bit more sophisticated in their disruption than the other, and so it's probably only a matter of time before that other gets indeffed, but that would be a shame and I'd like to keep trying for now! See User talk:XIIIfromTOKYO#Further discussion. Andrewa (talk) 09:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
No, I asked whether you had introduced the text fake education into an article, and your answer was evasive. XIIIfromTokyo provided some diffs that show you introducing very similar text, with unfortunate phrasing... On top of being a fake school and being a financial loophole for France, Sciences Po is accused of being complicit with the "mediacratie" for example. This is ambiguous in English, it's not clear whether Misplaced Pages is asserting that it's a fake school etc. or whether we're just saying it's accused of that. The matter is sensitive enough that it's important to avoid such ambiguity, particularly in an article likely to be read by others with poor English. Andrewa (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
XIIIfromTokyo is now hunting me down on Andrewa talk page, making up warnings I never received and bringing back old disputes by saying that Andrewa asked him to do so . Only in death does duty end, you talked about being clear the user has no intention to stop, he is now continuing over and over. --Launebee (talk) 13:07, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
No, XIIIfromTokyo is participating in the discussion on my talk page because I explicitly asked them to do so. They made a mistake regarding the warning, and have now admitted that. Their English is no better than yours, as has been established over and over. Andrewa (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
AB10002 - paid editing + potential legal threat
AB10002 (talk·contribs) is a single-purpose account that has been targeting the Julie Payette article for a few months now. They have stated that "our team is watching the page and constantly removes the false allegations". The supposed "false allegations" are verified by multiple reliable sources and have been widely reported in the Canadian media; some are not even remotely controversial, such as basic information about her marriages or minor criticisms about her appointment process . The "team" behind AB10002 appears to think they have the right to control what content appears on Payette's Misplaced Pages page. Their most recent edit made an accusation that "person(s) have attempted to deliberately smear the reputation of this public figure by posting false irrelevant information..." (edit summary was cut off). Given the legal phrasing used and the editor's apparent governmental connections, to me this sounds like a potential accusation of defamation and an attempt to intimidate editors into relinquishing control of what content appears on the page. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:45, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I smell an Aboriginal fighting weapon. This is the sort of non-content (Person had a road accident. It was an accident. So what?) that Ivar the Boneful has been edit-warring to re-insert into this BLP with the only edit-summary being "RV paid editor". Black Kite (talk)18:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It's entirely possible for their edits to be problematic for WP:COI reasons and yet still at least partially correct. The thing about the car accident has never actually had a compelling reason presented why it needed to be in the article at all — sure, it's sourceable, but nobody's ever answered my talk page question about whether it was noteworthy or relevant to note in her biography. As I noted in that comment, it's sourceable that politicians show up at community events to announce government donations and hand over plastic novelty cheques — but there's no noteworthy or relevant reason why documenting each individual instance of that needs to happen in an encyclopedia, so the mere fact that it's sourceable isn't a sufficient condition by itself. What needs to be shown is not just that the car accident is sourceable — what needs to be, but hasn't been, shown is a reason why it matters to an encyclopedia article about her. Yes, it's true that a person with a direct COI doesn't get to control the content of the article — but it's also true that the information hasn't been demonstrated as needing to be there at all. So, yeah, I think there's a curved hunting weapon in the vicinity too. Bearcat (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
"most probably a sock" ... well feel free to open up an SPI, Dr. K., though I think you might find it pretty difficult to explain how an Australian editor is doing so using an IP address traceable to New York City. You might wish to consider the old saying about glass houses – someone on the article talkpage has already pointed out that you seem to have made several edits identical to those of AB10002. Or perhaps you just both share a similar distaste for the mention of divorce? Dr.K. 21 July, AB10002 6 October – quite the coincidence! It's quite interesting that you've managed to magically find your way to this ANI thread despite not being notified and no mention of it being made in any edit summaries – and yet AB10002 was notified of it. It's almost as if you logged in as AB10002, saw the notification, and quickly switched accounts to maintain the illusion of neutrality. That boomerang just keeps on spinnin'! Ivar the Boneful (talk) 19:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I would HIGHLY suggest that you do not cast aspersions on editors being socks without some rather concrete proof as you just did. To be blunt, the edits regarding the traffic incident were indeed inappropriate and should been removed, per the talk page discussion. If AB10002 hadn't removed it, another editor would. Also not every sordid detail of their life needs to be in the article, especially if it doesn't add to the actual substance of the article. This discussion regarding what should and should not be on the page needs to go to the article talk page. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:39, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Ivar the Boneful: In my reply above, I mentioned that the IP was most probably a sock, but neither did I specify whose sock I suspected it was, nor did I did use your name. I am not sure why you automatically thought it was you I had in mind. As far as the rest of your aspersions, you just upgraded that big aboriginal hunting implement in the sky with a radar-homing sensor, and it is not pointing to me at all. I leave it up to you to guess its direction. Dr.K.19:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Can I suggest you strike that particularly ludicrous assertion, Ivar the Boneful? I would suggest that you alternatively open an SPI against Dr. K, but since you have absolutely zero convincing evidence, there's probably no point in doing that; indeed, the only likely action that is going to be taken here is against you for casting aspersions. Which would be unfortunate for someone whom, looking at your contributions, is mostly a positive. Black Kite (talk)13:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
User:David-golota
What began as a content dispute at the list of current world boxing champions has devolved into a conduct dispute filled with lies and personal attacks. At talk, I have tried to discuss the (albeit bizarre) intricacies of the WBA's world title rulings with User:David-golota, but all he does is make repeated accusations of ownership:
All of which are ludicrous. Anyone who observes my edits at the article will see that I have never displayed WP:OWN behaviour—for many years I have collaborated with plenty of editors in making routine stats-related updates. A week ago, User:David-golota removed official WBA terminology (), which I reverted with an edit summary (). His next revert and edit summary accused me of ownership (), which is instead what he himself seems to be doing. His way or the high way, others be damned.
What I am claiming is WP:V (namely the official WBA site, which supports my stance), but he chooses to ignore that. Along with the constant ownership lies, he also thinks every one of my posts is a personal attack. I can't get through one interaction with him without an accusation of personal attacks—whereas again, it is his antagonistic tone that needs serious work. Granted, I have indeed said "Screw you" in response to him labelling my edits as "BS". A bit of tit-for-tat, but that's about it as far as personal attacks go on my side.
From thereon, it's just the same thing over and over again—he won't back down from his false accusations, and I won't discuss anything with him until he stops with the battleground antics. All the while, the actual content dispute doesn't move an inch. Every time I do respond, it's a personal attack as far as he's concerned. I even tried reaching out and calling him "Buddy" (which isn't an insult where I come from), but he took great offence to that. So I'm at a loss. There isn't going to be a handshake from either party, virtual or otherwise. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:12, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Follow-ups from User:David-golota:
"Your level of arrogance is beyond what I ever thought anybody could have on this site." – That's some pretty bold stuff right there, and verging on personal attack. Or, he's looking in a mirror and seeing himself. In my first post at the talk page, all I did was lay out my rationale. He then came in with all guns blazing, and hasn't stopped since. He's somehow got it into his head that I've hurled scathing insults at him, which isn't true (besides my abovementioned "Screw you" response; just the one, freely admitted). Since he was the first to bring up tone, and isn't letting it go, I'm not sure what he actually wants—for me to grovel at his virtual feet and tell him he's right?
"You refuse to read the links from WBA official website because of my tone?" – I've presented my sources, but all he's concerned about is conduct and my tone. How is discussion meant to advance with two issues at hand? I've said repeatedly that I'll discuss the actual content dispute if he drops the conduct dispute, but he brings up the latter every time. Likely any response I give at this point will rejected as WP:OWN.
I'm tempted to go for WP:3O to see if it's just me against whom he has an agenda, but I absolutely will not back out of the content dispute just because he's not a fan of my words. As far as I know, WP:DRN isn't the right place, as that's not for conduct disputes. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 02:19, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I never reported anybody, as I do not like to escalate. But today is the day, because today my quite sleepy talkpage was suddenly bombarded by a few comments, that I consider openly insulting. Then I discovered it was not only about me. Sorry, if I miss some formalities, I'll explain as I can.
1) Personal attack. The user concerned, Ninjaoust, seems to have been very dissatisfied that I deleted quite insignificant and dubious addition to Romanization of Persian. So he created a sockpuppet and tried to insinuate me of lacking of civility on my talk page. Then he saw it was not enough, and started, as an IP, to openly insult me. Finally he decided to do formalities, and left a "warning". And again he could not help but indirectly insult me, that is he did what he tried to accuse me of. All three messages I see quite impolite and insulting. I am not sure whether it was the same person (need to be investigated, but the duck test is enough for me for now), or Ninjoust just campaigned his friends to do so. The latter would be even worse, as it would look like a deliberate group attack on me. In any way, I see such attention towards my persona as unnerving and such comments as quite unpleasant.
2) Sockpuppetry. As per above. I suppose I need to open an investigation?
3) Disruptive editing. As another user quite showed, Ninjoust is known for many disruptive edits, particularly creating and promoting hoax transliterations/alphabets.
I'm not sure what has to be done, I never reported on the AN. I just felt that it had to be reported. Insults I can stand, but issue #3 clearly has to be addressed some way. Of course, I could have talk to the user myself on this issue, but I'm hesitant. My feeling he won't understand and won't listen to me.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I can save a little time here. The sockpuppet is confirmed as Ninjoust's sockpuppet (no comment on the IP addresses). I've not blocked the main account yet - I would have gone for a short block, but I'll leave that for others to have a look at the alleged disruptive edits. Oh, and you should ignore the latest post your talk page, as that was someone else entirely. -- zzuuzz17:18, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Communication and sourcing issues
Hichem algerino has been editing for years. If you look at User talk:Hichem algerino, you will see warnings going back to 2014 about creating unreferenced articles, but this is still going on. Hichem has ignored dozens of messages about this, including other editors saying if it doesn't stop they may mass delete his creations (that was back in 2015, no improvement), threats of blocks for continually adding unreferenced information from 6th July 2016, an actual block showing on 30 July 2016, more warnings about a potential block for adding unreferenced information on 25 August 2016, same on 12 December 2016, 31 May 2017, 2 July 2017, and about 20 messages from me, mainly on different articles, just since August, all about creating unreferenced articles or completely blank articles. Hichem has been reminded that WP:Communication is required but only seems to have responded to one of the more than one hundred talk page messages, and that was to say 'I will try' (to add sources). I appreciated that but there has been no change in behaviour or further communication, he continues to create unreferenced articles. I feel I've exhausted all other avenues to solve this. Boleyn (talk) 17:44, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
He seems well intentioned but I suspect there may be something of a language barrier. I’ve dropped a line in French on his talk page; let’s see where we go from there. I’ll have a look at his creations as well (I’ve added a couple of sources to Djamel El Okbi to start with). --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, Malcolmxl5, I saw your message to Hichem algerino and I agree that the language may well be an issue. However, Hichem has still not communicated here, and has been able to explain his referencing on his own talk page, which shows he does understand and his answer does not indicate he understands the importance of reliable sourcing. His English is certainly good enough to understand the main point of the messages, and I think his understanding is probably clear. Hichem, can you please communicate here? Do you understand that articles must have references? Will you start responding to messages? There are plenty of people here happy to help you, but we can't have editors persistently creating articles which aren't verified. It might be worth you reading WP:V. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
As i told Malcolmxl5 i could not find sources on the Net i tried so much but without value, sometimes it is based on sources from French Misplaced Pages or some videos from YouTube and dzfoot.com However, i will not create new pages without source --Hichem algerino (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Boleyn, I was looking at the latest unreferenced issue raised, 1999–00 Algerian League Cup, the sources Hichem is using are in the external links section rather than the references section, a minor error. The previous one, 2013–14 MC Oran season - Hichem was working on that for a few days and by the time he finished, there were two citations and a source embedded in the main body of the article. Similarly, for the one prior to that, 2013–14 CR Belouizdad season, it now has 14 citations and a source embedded in the main body of the article. So, it’s getting done but perhaps not before the articles are reviewed. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:25, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Some have had sources added, but most, like still have no sources two months after a message has been sent to Hichem, a message he hasn't bothered to answer. This is the case for many of the articles. I would also say that Hichem has been asked on more than one occasion if the links he has added to an 'external links' section are actually his sources, but he hasn't taken the time to answer. This may be an oversight, but I don't know that they were his sources, or if he had any sources. This is no big issue for one or two answers, but is a big issue for dozens. Hichem, you are still not demonstrating that you understand WP:RS, WP:V or that WP:Communication is required. Please comment on this. Malcolm is offering you good advice and support, which is great, but I have spent hours reviewing your articles and messaging you, all of which you have ignored. We need to know if you will stop creating articles without WP:RS. Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Hichem algerino, you are continuing to edit but not replying to this thread. You will have received pings plus should have this watchlisted. As the concern is partially around a lack of communication, this is particularly concerning. I again remind you that WP:Communication is required. ANI is a serious process, and I think everyone always prefers if the issues can be properly discussed and resolved, and a block avoided. Please communicate so we can help. Boleyn (talk) 06:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Hichem algerino, you have now agreed not to create articles without sources, can you please engage in this thread, hopefully so we can close this with no action needed? The questions you have not responded to, are do you understand that sources need to be clear (not labelled as 'external links' if they are actually your sources) and reliable (not Youtube and other Wikipedias aren't good either, see WP:RS and WP:V. Will you start to respond when other editors take the time to message you, and do you understand that WP:Communication is required on Misplaced Pages? If you will keep to these in future, we have no problem, but you do need to take part in this thread. Boleyn (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Boleyn, I do not have anything to add i do not know what the problem is now. i said I will not open any new page without a source and about there is no source because it is an individual work of me and it is impossible to find a source And relied on the arrangement of the Algerian Ligue Professionnelle 1 already located in Misplaced Pages look here Algerian Ligue Professionnelle 1 season by season --Hichem algerino (talk) 16:52, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for responding, Hichem. I'll try to word my unanswered questions differently so hopefully you will understand them. Do you understand that you should answer messages other editors send you? Do you understand that you shouldn't create articles without reliable sources? Do you understand that your own work, Youtube and other Wikipedias are not acceptable sources? Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
You don't have to respond to every message (although it's polite to do so, especially if they have asked you a question). However, according to WP:Communication is required: If you are getting multiple complaints on your talk page or on an article talk page about your editing, you are expected to either stop the action that is causing the complaints, or discuss it with the community of editors at the appropriate venue. That would cover the dozens of messages sent to you about sourcing. Boleyn (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Persistent disruptive behavior by IP 67.165.17.94
For a few months I and a few other editors have been dealing with issues related to 67.165.17.94 (talk·contribs·WHOIS) including sockpuppetry, repeated insertion of erroneous information, and repeated insertion of unreferenced or improperly referenced content on articles related to elections and political parties on Misplaced Pages, and so far have been unable to bring a stop to such disruptive behavior despite attempts to direct them to stop. There's countless examples of this, but as an example, these include:
Insertion and restoration of erroneous information on articles
The latest incident involves the color of the Peter Pilz List – they keep attempting to restore what they call the "correct" color for the list, despite the fact that the light green used in the polling graph/article was literally my own arbitrary addition which I since realized was erroneous given that the party's paraphernalia is white/gray and it's mostly represented with white/gray in media sources. Despite this, they're insisting that that same light green is somehow the "correct" color – despite my acknowledgement that my own addition of light green on Misplaced Pages was in fact my error and that the party color is white/gray. (I've previously ignored 3RR in similar cases with this IP with the same justification that their edits were blatantly incorrect, despite their repeated attempts to restore them.) Mélencron (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
This is very reminiscent of the behaviour of serial sockpuppeteer Greekboy12345er6. All of the cases will be stale, but it might be worth looking at them and seeing if it quacks to you as well. RolandR (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Country of film production – long-term edit warring from east UK
Somebody using IPs from the east part of the UK (around Norfolk) has been disrupting film articles for more than a year. This person edit-wars about the country of production as listed in the infobox. The vandal is currently blocked as Special:Contributions/94.185.135.206 and globally blocked as Special:Contributions/81.106.30.36, but many more IPs are involved. A fine selection of IPs showing the pattern of multiple reverts may be seen at Scott Pilgrim vs. the World – a film article that this person keeps returning to.
In August, this person edit-warred from France using Special:Contributions/46.218.99.78. Later that month they returned to the Norfolk area.
So the question is how do we stop this person? A a handful of rangeblocks could be set in place but there would be collateral damage, I think. Any ideas? Binksternet (talk) 19:51, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
You aren't going to be able to use rangeblocks here. These are BT Broadband ranges, the biggest provider in the UK. Even blocking a /24 would have collateral and as you can see these aren't on the same /16 (or even the same /8!), let alone /24. They're also very dynamic - my BT IP flips around all of those 81x and 86x ranges as well as a couple of others. If the vandalism has a set pattern I'd suggest an edit filter at WP:EFR. Black Kite (talk)20:24, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
As a UK person, I know geolocation does not work in the UK - all you get is the location of the ISP office, not the editor. My IP would suggest South London, when I'm in North Lancashire. Ronhjones 21:49, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Depends on the website used, the provider, and the type of connection. The two used on the Geolocate links on IP talk pages are this one, which has my current IP spot on to a couple of miles, and this one, which is 200 miles off. However if all of those IPs above are (or were, as they're dynamic) coming up with a similar location, it's probably likely to be fairly accurate. Black Kite (talk)22:05, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
This sounds suspiciously like
The owner of this account is suspected of abusively using multiple accounts.
Targeting specific, anonymous vandals can turn out to be impossible. Have you thought about adding some protection to the recently vandalized articles? Dimadick (talk) 05:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
In my experience, BT customers are often allocated IP addresses from a large pool of /23s and /24s. You certainly can't range block a /16 from a BT, but these smaller ranges are sometimes clear of collateral damage. At a glance, 86.157.160.0/23 (talk·contribs·WHOIS), 86.157.161.0/24 (talk·contribs·WHOIS), and 86.157.135.0/24 (talk·contribs·WHOIS) look like him. 81.156.136.0/23 (talk·contribs·WHOIS) looks like him, too, but it's stale. The others are harder to nail down, but they're likely /24s. I guess if it keeps up, I could probably do a series of range blocks. The problems I see are that 1) he doesn't seem to edit all that often (only on two days this month so far?), 2) it could potentially take a large number of range blocks to even be useful, and 3) page protection might be a better choice if specific articles are being regularly targeted. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
What NRP means here by 'collateral damage' is not that range blocks wouldn't block a large amount of IPs, it means that there is little editing currently in those ranges. As NRP points out, to be effective you would need a number of range blocks covering a huge amount of potential IP's given the UK ISP's method of allocation. And BT is more problematic than most, given how often it changes around its broadband allocation (on a whim sometimes). We don't really want to be blocking indefinitely huge amounts of IP's just because currently there is little activity. We arnt talking a school block here. Some form of edit filter would be better if possible, if not, its something that might need to be lived with until the point where ENWP makes it compulsory to register to edit. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
More to the point, BT Broadband operates on the principle of every subscriber's router being available for every other subscriber to use if they're out of range of their home router, to create seamless nationwide wi-fi coverage, so provided you switch your home router (to which your system will default) off, your IP address will literally change every few seconds. A workable rangeblock on a BT range means knocking out the entire country. ‑ Iridescent09:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Ha, I forgot about that 'feature'. Makes successfully prosecuting software pirates in the UK impossible (if you are a BT user). 'Wasn't me guv, was someone else using my wifi innit'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Kevin Deutsch, part II. Single-purpose accounts, neutrality, self-published, COI, NOTHERE issues.
User:Ballastpointed was blocked for 1 week, but things have not improved, and the sock / meatpuppet account User:AlexVegaEsquire instantly stepped in as soon as Ballastpointed was blocked (diff). As such, I'd ask for sanctions to be taken against either both or neither of them. I'm not asking for a Sockpuppet investigation because, thanks to tags, it seems likely that Ballastpointed is the user's mobile phone account - almost all their edits are tagged as such - and AlexVegaEsquire is their desktop account. So they likely have different IPs even if they're the same person. But it doesn't matter, because WP:DUCK applies - both accounts are single-purpose accounts who have never edited anything other than Kevin Deutsch. Talk page collaboration has also stopped, not that it ever went very far to begin with. For example, I responded quickly to an Oct 10 edit on the talk page (diff), no reply, I cautiously make my edit on Oct 12, which is promptly reverted within hours (diff).
Without getting too deep into the content dispute, suffice to say there's a fundamental failure to agree on what sources say. Ballastpointed / Alex seem to deny not merely the claims against Deutsch (which is fine, and good per WP:BLP; Misplaced Pages shouldn't state in its own authorial voice what happened), but also deny the claims happened at all and bury the scandal under the rug, despite this scandal being by far the most notable thing about Deustch - for example, repeatedly removing from the lede that Deutsch was accused of inventing convenient quotes for his news stories, despite multiple sources accusing him of just that (example source if you're curious). Again, Misplaced Pages shouldn't necessarily say he did actually fabricate the quotes, but reporting the accusation and the fact that the quotes/sources were unable to be confirmed is perfectly legit. They also like to quote WP:SELFPUB sources very extensively... I think that the article already over-quotes Deutsch himself as is, when he is not a neutral source and is making a number of self-serving claims.
I should note that in fairness, some of Ballast / Alex's contributions have been fine, and others are stylistic preferences on emphasis that editors can legitimately disagree over. I had hoped that they might chill out. However, their general style of instantly reverting to their preferred revision isn't the way Misplaced Pages should work. I might have been willing to let it go for some of the more minor changes, but when I tried waiting them out, they used that as an opportunity to cautiously include more dramatic revisions (example diff; this was from October 8 when I tried letting an October 5 edit stand), so I think this edit war will last forever as is. If you think that the most recent revision looks harmless or too minor to care about, it might be, but Ballast will use it as an opening to revert the article to how it looked a month ago eventually, which was a straight-up puff piece that excised almost all of the scandal. They are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia or reflect the sources, they're here to fluff Kevin Deutsch's article.
As a side note. In my opinion, these two users are most likely Deutsch himself. It perfectly fits the pattern of someone obsessed with just one article and making it as admiring as possible and adding in links to Deutsch's blog (diff) and using the same phrasing as Deutsch from his website (e.g. crowing about his fifteen year career... as if that's something unusual among journalists. blog, diff). Ultimately, this is largely irrelevant, but I just figured I'd throw this out there. (They have denied having a COI, for the record. They just "care about accuracy".) SnowFire (talk) 04:24, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm unclear as to why my accurate edits continue to be reverted. They are clear, concise, accurate, objective, contain indisputable facts, and comply with Misplaced Pages's living persons policy. Alternatively, the edits made by @snowfire are inaccurate, presumptive, conclusory, and violate the LP policy. I believe his edits constitute vandalism, and that he is an author of one or more of the sources for this article. He could also be a party with a grudge against article subject. Either way, he has a clear/obvious conflict of interest, as is demonstrated by his one-sided edits. I request an objective party arbitrate this dispute.
As I have stated numerous times, I have no connection to article subject. I am simply a person with interest in the controversy (having learned of it via Misplaced Pages). I don’t see why my revisions are being subjected to vandalism when they are neutral and harmless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ballastpointed (talk • contribs) 21:58, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Power~enwiki: True, that would be one way to do it... but per my comments in the AFD, I think that Deutsch is notable enough, and would rather normal editor discipline be applied here to stop the edit war. SnowFire (talk) 23:50, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I would support deletion at this point. The back and forth is completely absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ballastpointed (talk • contribs)
@Buaidh: I am sorry about that. The history and recent contributions (NPA in the template discussions, for instance) are very troubling. I have left a warning note on their talk page, and I hope this will stop similar behaviours from this user. Alex Shih05:40, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Not multiple socks, it’s multiple different people, as you can see from the different ip addresses. It’s a cohort of over 70000 people. You can’t win — Preceding unsigned comment added by FFalex (talk • contribs) 05:01, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Comment from non-administrator: Obviously I can't do anything to act on this note, but why not cascade-protect anything to do with mangoes or Australian education and ask good faith editors to suggest edits in the talk page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TomBarker23 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Current page protection hasn't been enough to stanch the flow, regarding the use of a poem in an Australian school. JNW (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Requesting Assistance on Persistent Disruptive editing by user
Requesting assistance. A non-registered user of IP-address 116.15.94.199 had been repeatedly reverting contents without any specific rationale (except for one, but should have raised it up on discussion instead of a forceful reverting action) or raising any rationale up on the discussion. This is despite warnings by multiple users and a block applied a year ago (as dated on the block log). Failed attempts had been made to reach out to the user via the talk page or the edit descriptions (basically much of the actions appropriate under a extended confirmed-user privilege). Lyg 2001 (talk) 11:18, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Lyg 2001: The IP address appears to be shared by multiple users. I have semi-protected the article for now, and will keep watching for developments. Alex Shih11:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Personal attacks made by an IP on edit summary
Suspected IP sock of blocked User:PavelStaykov who is an edit-warrior, made personal attacks against me in English on the edit summary. Check here please: . He is calling me terrorist and Macedonian Muslim. Jingiby (talk) 12:01, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jingiby: Done. In the meanwhile, is it possible if you could contact individual admins privately if another block evasion occurs, or start an sockpuppet investigation since this has been recurring on frequent basis? Thanks in advance! Alex Shih12:16, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jingiby: re the above, feel free to ping me directly about these socks, I've become pretty familiar with the editing patterns over the last month. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 17:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Reporting Gugi2001 for edit-warring and disruptive editing
Problems started with a sweeping change by Gugi2001 (talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) to the Enis Bytyqi article ( link) with the edit summary being "Correction!". It was full of issues: typos, broken grammar, unexplained removal of references, addition of broken links. For that reason, I reverted the change before successively implementing constructive changes from the user's massive edit (1, 2, 3).
Gugi2001's next revert ("Correction the apps and goals!") occurred another ten days later
Since then an IP editor has twice (1, 2) tried to reinstate Gugi2001's changes. I don't think it is too far a stretch to assume this is the same user: Gugi2001 last edited three days ago, the IP made changes a day later.
I realise I should probably have reported this much earlier, and to the edit-warring noticeboard. I am also aware of the fact that I reverted more often than I should have.
I am now reporting Gugi2001 here for multiple issues:
Edit-warring, at the same time lack of any communication, no response to attempts to discuss changes on Talk pages
Run-in with an editor acting like a troll results in me getting warned by another editor
NO ACTION
I'm closing this up before Lexers615 digs him or herself any deeper. It's good that you feel passionate about contributing to Misplaced Pages, but it's bad that you react to routine editorial decisions in this manner. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project where your point of view will not always prevail; a thicker skin than you are exhibiting is required. Please read WP:AGF, WP:OWN, and WP:NPA, in addition to the reading recommended by SarekOfVulcan below. A Train13:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
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To make a long story short, I created a short entry for "damaged beyond repair" https://en.wikipedia.org/Draft:Damaged_beyond_repairs. For no reason what-so-ever, David.moreno72 rejected my entry. If you consult his page, you'll see his profile is essentially a flamebait. I deal with common trolls on a daily basis on gaming forum and on Facebook, so knew nothing good would have resulted in me contacting him directly. From his profile and other comments, I bet everything he has a notepad file with pre-writen "well crafted" flame lines design to look civil yet dealing the intended insults ready just for this situation, just like his profile is. So I went to the other link provided. Given first editor total and blatant lack of respect, I posted about the incident in the appropriate language. Then, second editor Ammarpad reverted my post, claiming I wasn't civil. I believe civility in the case of David.moreno72 is totally inappropriate given how he launched the hostility. However, I did a second post without the trashtalk, which I insist is the only language appropriate when facing common trolls... This time, Ammarpad reverted my post, now under the false pretense I was attacking an editor.
So my two issues: First is the run-ins with the two editor; second, for name-whoever-you-want's sake, on Misplaced Pages, I've seen several entries a lot shorter than what I submitted, I see controversial subject getting taken over by lobby firms (look for any and all entries about abortion or similar "hot topics"...), and anyone was free to latter add more "meat" on my entry, which is I believe the exact reason Misplaced Pages exist to begin with. So, if Misplaced Pages is supposed to be this "democratic", why do common trolls like David.moreno72 end up in such a position of power, and why editor have that much arbitrary power without having to justify themselves? My original post wasn't a case requiring urgent moderation, neither was my ulterior posts on the Help desk. Ammarpad's unconditional defense of David.moreno72 reflects poorly on the duties of the editor, just as David.moreno72 being an editor to begin with...
(edit conflict) Both of your posts at the AfC Help Desk contained unacceptable personal attacks. Calling other editors self-centered and arrogant is not permissible, and in any event, arguing against the person who reviewed your AfC submission is not acceptable. Respectfully, your AfC submission was correctly rejected because it is nothing more than a dictionary definition. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. Our articles are generally about concepts rather than phrases themselves, though even articles about specific phrases must contain more than a dictionary definition. I see nothing specifically wrong with the other editors' response to your conduct. If you continue to personally attack other editors, you can expect to have your editing privileges revoked in short order. This does not mean simply to cut down the trash talk, either. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 13:39, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here is the problem. I wrote the book. The Assassination of Jesse James ... Ect.. here is the deal.. your computer system steals and lies about many historical events. "The Outsiders". I wrote that script. The actors all know why is it your trying to take credit for my work. My stuff is all saved. You can't change history. Your liars will end up in jail or worse. Time to tell the Truth. Face your fears. That is my hard work not yours. Memories are important...so I ask why would you work so hard to lie to the public. People are awake. All except the ones who are still trying to cover their butt. It won't be long now. For the record I hate you. I am smart....I am a great director....I do make a good difference.....I am. Hayley Dawn Harvey. God's kid
Ivanvector, no worries. It's basically moot, as you say. With the IP already blocked there's nothing productive to do here before the bot comes by to archive it. A Train16:29, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
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It looks like the article Donald B. Smith is causing this problem. Obvious WP:NLT is obvious, and Cbssport17 should have discussed this rather than making a threat. Possible WP:COI or WP:AUTOPROB here as well. Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages cannot use first hand knowledge and has to rely on what secondary sources have said.-♦IanMacM♦05:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Meanwhile I was trying to update the article with Smith's wife's death using his official county bio, through edit conflicts. I have also condensed the lawsuit material and added a second news source. There was no need for a threat at all, so silly. Yngvadottir (talk) 05:31, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Don't agree here. Cbssport17 removed the investigation info and replaced it with election info. here left a misleading ES not mentioning the removal. Jim1138 (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I hadn't seen that particular edit. That's about the upcoming election; I was trying to find results of the last one, which is what's encyclopedic. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:12, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Hence I added that he was cleared. I don't want to overload the article with references to this matter, and I cut it back considerably on BLP grounds as well as pure UNDUE, but I've searched for references to the elections he's won, to use as counterbalancing refs, and haven't found any, just repeated statements that he has been reelected each time. I hope more experienced BLP/political editors will further balance the article. I just dove in. Yngvadottir (talk) 07:27, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Hammersoft: Yes, I'd noticed, since in 2013 that editor also uploaded a slew of images to Commons that I was getting up the courage to mass nominate as likely copyvio/inadequate licence: commons:Category:Donald B. Smith. The other Cbssport accounts either have not edited or seem to me to have no relevant edits. Maybe a lost password situation; to supplement your ping I'm going to message Cbssport7 on their user talk. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
All of their image uploads on Commons are now up for deletion, most of them in a group nomination. It's blatantly evident they were just uploading images they found on the Internet for most of it. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
A downside; in that nomination, we're going to lose File:Sheriff Don Smith 14.jpg. This would be a correct deletion, as we can't confirm the provenance of the image. I'm quite certain it came from the U.S. Army, but I can't prove it. Also; regardless of the legal threat, it appears Cbssport17/Cbssport7 has a direct conflict of interest and is likely in violation of WP:PAID. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
SALT needed, potentially NOTHERE
Hi all,
Sorry for putting this here, Twinkle's RFPP module is crashing for me.
Over the past year or so, User:Shahriar al mahmud has repeatedly attempted to create autobiographies which are WP:NOTWEBHOST violations. Just recently Shahriar Al Mahmud and his userpage were created, both of which I've tagged for speedy deletion. SALT may be needed on all capitalisation forms of the name as previous talk page warnings have indicated that he has used camel case to avoid SALT protection.
@DrStrauss: Done. This could probably have been done by contacting individual admin though, instead of coming to AN/I. And I am puzzled that you cannot use RFPP without Twinkle. Why? Anyway, thanks for the heads up. Alex Shih08:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I am here to report Bachcell, an occasional editor who needs to be warned about inappropriately asserting his POV at talk pages and AFD. Some of my diffs may be older but Bachcell only edits maybe once or twice a month. However, during that brief time he expresses political beliefs and opinions almost never based on policy.
(Non-administrator comment): these aren't article edits, which is where we're concerned about POV. These are talk page discussions and deletion discussions, where we expect editors to have their own points of view about what is important. Having someone suggest that new guidelines should exist is not objectionable; that's where we get guidelines from. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm with Nat on this one. Those are venues where we generally expect people to have an opinion and express it. For AFD's its up to the closer to disregard and weight the !votes according to their backing in policy. As an aside, 'All politically motivated terrorist attacks are notable' is way down the list of 'stupid reasons to keep articles' as at least a politically motivated terrorist attack will have media coverage. Even the minor ones. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I think Bachcell's behaviour is of concern. Some of their behaviour suggests WP:NOTHERE namely "Treating editing as a battleground" and using Misplaced Pages for advocacy and propaganda contrary to WP:NOTADVOCATE. I'm not suggesting a block, but I think some of this behaviour is problematic and needs to be watched. AfD and other discussions are not for expressing personal opinions, but policy-based judgement. Also, accusing other editors of being "apologists" for terrorism is incredibly uncivil. AusLondonder (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) I have also been active at this AfD. And I want to point that it is a highly POV AfD on a hotly disputed topic (the French authorities are widely accused by journalists and politicians of diverting the adjudication of possibly terrorism-related crimes by administrative rulings of mental health causation. This is also an academic conversation. As the article cited by Icewhiz puts it, writing about the case at this AfD: "when confirmed diagnosis were present, there was a tendency to try to dismiss the possibility of terrorism altogether." What I am here to say is that there is a potential WP:BOOMERANG here because while Bachcell's opinion was POV, it is arguably not more POV than the TheGracefulSlick's nomination and AusLondoner's iVote, both of which make inaccurate assertions about the article, incident and sourcing that can be read as misleadingly POV. Not to mention the fact that this is one of a long series of AfDs by TheGracefulSlick that administrators have described as being WP:POINTy. Full disclosure, I have a POV on terrorism at variance with that expressed by GracefulSlick.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
That "article" was published by a military thinktank, E.M.Gregory. Please take those conspiracy theories elsewhere. Drmies (talk) 18:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Can we stop trying to make this about a petty content dispute? If anyone has issues with an AFD with a fully relevant nomination statement, take it to my talk page. If I was incorrect in believing Bachcell's behavior is problematic a neutral (preferably admin) user can close this. But consider this: Bachcell's inaccurate, often insulting, opinions taint neutral talk page discussions, and I am not the first editor to point this out to him.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree that WP:FORUM applies to edits such as this, and let's not forget that WP:NOT applies across the board, to all spaces, though not always in equal measure everywhere. An AfD doesn't run for much longer than a week, usually, so disruption is limited, as opposed to article talk pages. If I were closing an AfD like this, and I think I speak for most admins here, I would just utterly disregard that rather ridiculous post (we have enough conspiracy theories already) since it presents no argument based on policy. I am not sure that The Graceful Slick is making a good case here, but in principle, if this is what Bachcell does on Misplaced Pages, at some point there's been enough soapboxing. Drmies (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Yesterday a new editor User:Amy. Firehoof. was created and started making a series of edits to articles related to Wales. These edits were mostly reverted, including by User:Andy Dingley and myself. The edits were problematic, and included this edit which attempted to remove the assertion that a specifically Welsh invention was Welsh, this edit that removed the Welsh language name of North Wales from the article about North Wales (with the alarming edit summary that this was "irrelevant info) and this edit which remove the Welsh name for a Welsh town, claiming that this was "fixing my own typo". Amy. Firehoof. entered into an edit war on Car gwyllt to get their changes into the article, including this change which is both factually inaccurate (see the citation in the article on Wales which establishes it is a country]] and irrelevant to that article. User:Amy. Firehoof. was blocked last night by User:Alexf for edit warring.
I was just writing up an SPI, but it's a lot of typing to do all the diffs and the massive crossover! This duck isn't quacking, it's neighing. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:04, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This was going to be an ANEW post, but now we've started here...
Amy. Firehoof. appeared last night and walked straight into a triple 4RR edit-war over removing descriptions of anything Welsh as Welsh. This morning, a 31 hour block.
Tonight, a very obvious sock or meatpuppet appears. Repeats a couple of the edits and wikilove the original's talk: page. This is either a sock (during a block) or a meat, and CU might answer that.
When we start seeing POV edits to a local council page, from someone who's userpage claims naively, "Interested in learning more about the United Kingdom", then we have a problem. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
<ec>> That was rude. No wonder I got an EC. I added to the SPI while trying to create a new one. A veritable barnyard of neighing and quacking.18:12, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
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Questionable edits.
A few day ago I ran across KingQueenJack (talk·contribs) making questionable, unsourced edits in Carolingian Empire, which is on my watchlist. I went to 3RR and screeched to a halt there. Fortunately, so did KQJ. I invited KQJ to discuss things several times (see relevant talkpages). KQJ did not respond. Checking up on this user, I found the same kind of behavior is repeated in other articles (here and here) and other edits are generally not considered helpful. I think some admin action might be helpful. Kleuske (talk) 18:04, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, since you brought this here we might as well discuss things--I see basic incompetence (note how they changed a book title to help make their date change work: "H. Garipzanov, The Symbolic Language of Authority in the Carolingian World (c.751–843,884–888) (Leiden: Brill, 2008)"). Plus, we've blocked editors for being uncommunicative before. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Most (if not nearly all) of the recent edits I'm going through by this user appear to be changes to text in Chinese, or at least include changes to text in Chinese. I'm wondering how well or fluent this user is with English... maybe this is what is contributing to the communication issues? ~Oshwah~18:30, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
IP gets reverted, doesn't like it, starts being deliberately disruptive.
Natural gas is a Chinese invention. Fascinating story, well recorded contemporaneously in the West, but China was exploiting and even drilling for natural gas centuries ago.
The "invention by country" categories are a problem. They're a magnet for nationalistic trolls. They're unworkable per WP sourcing rules, I favour deleting the lot. But as that isn't happening (CfDs passim), we're stuck with trying to agree criteria for them via Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Technology#National_invention_categories. Fruitlessly as yet.
Today they reply, with a TL;DR wall of text (dumped needlessly onto my user talk too). But this isn't about what they think (or what I think), it's about what consensus has landed at - and for the country invention cats, we're using (and have used for a long time) a definition including both inventions and discoveries. So China is there for natural gas.
When reverted, they (unsurprisingly) edit-war, but then start getting nasty and adding obvious untruths to unrelated articles. This was added by another IP, and I reverted it as either vandalism or extreme lack of clue (the 2015 final retirement of Avro VulcanXH558 was a massive story in UK airspotting. It did not fly again in 2016, it is not flying again this year.). To re-add such a thing isn't about content accuracy, it's just trying to wind me up personally. See ANI above. I am tired of this sort of rubbish. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I hope that I'm not subject to prejudice, just because I choose not to formally register as a[REDACTED] user
TL:DR!?!? @Andy Dingley: I am insulted that you didn't read. It's not a "wall of text" it is reason explained! I took the time to vebosely explain to Andy Dingley the difference between discovery and invention and how in the context of technology there may be some confusion. I suspect bigotry, and I don't think that Andy Dingley is unique as a bigot against Wikipedians who choose, for one reason or another, to edit without formally registering for an account. The fact of the matter is whether if it's Jimbo Wales, an unregistered (AKA IP editor) or a rabid turtle that submits edits, all edit submissions should be judged on their own merit.
I read all of your vast screed (which you have dumped in three places) and found it equally confused in all three. You seem to think that being "natural" prevents natural gas from being an "invention", thus not belonging in the category. As you have been told repeatedly, it is included there as a discovery, not as an invention. This is our established practice for these categories.
I agree with you, it is better if I read your screeds rather than ignoring them; and so I do so. That does not make your inability to express yourself concisely any better.
I object to being termed a bigot and I see that as another personal attack from you today. In particular, none of my reaction to you as an IP has differed at all from how I would treat you as a registered editor. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) User blocked for that unwarranted attack. And suffice it to say this behaviour reminds me strongly of a particular user who disrupts national invention/discovery categories and casts aspersions as to the racial motivations of editors who revert them. Ivanvector (/Edits) 20:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
There are so many disruptive editors focussed on national invention categories (one of which is from the same geographical area as this editor) that I simply can't think which one of the many candidates it might be. But they're usually trying to include the tenuous, not exclude the obvious. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't check WHOIS or geolocation before blocking, calling people "deficient" and "bigot" is enough for me. The one from the same geographical area as this user is the one this reminds me of, though I haven't seen him edit from this city or this ISP. Ivanvector (/Edits) 20:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I have a lot of sympathy for the IP's position. (I don't know whether it's literally true, but the point is still valid even if Lincoln didn't say it “No,” Lincoln says. “Calling a dog’s tail a leg, doesn’t make it a leg.”) If we have a category that's demonstrably incorrect, we ought to fix it and not castigate people who make the "mistake" of assuming that words have meaning. How on earth did we decide that a category covering inventions also includes discoveries? It's tiresome to have to explain to readers that what Misplaced Pages means by notable isn't what is meant in general usage but at least those terms are close enough that confusion is understandable. If we now have to explain to readers that "inventions" doesn't really mean "inventions", we are reducing our own credibility.--S Philbrick(Talk)20:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It's a pretty well known issue that these categories are problematic, and yeah there have been discussions seeking solutions for quite some time. That's all well and good; I believe Andy posted a link to one of the recent discussions somewhere above. I don't necessarily agree that the "invention" categories also include scientific (or other) discoveries, and at any rate the treatment is highly inconsistent, but I believe Andy is referring to the various "list of fooian inventions and discoveries", in which inventions and discoveries are pretty much always lumped together. It's not optimal, it's confusing, and it's a mess, but none of that warrants calling someone a bigot because they disagreed with an edit you made. Ivanvector (/Edits) 20:53, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Switch the status of the players and the outcome becomes "Yes, the remark was inappropriate, but they were in the right as to the content issue so let's forgive the remark. Some editors need to grow thicker skins." I am bewildered that the double standard is so hard for reasonable people to see. ―Mandruss☎20:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
"How on earth did we decide that a category covering inventions also includes discoveries? "
Literally, because one of the warring socks (the pro-German one) advocated it, and it seems the most workable approach. The set of most interest is the set of both inventions and discoveries, so we us that as our basis. If you dislike the category names as "inventions" alone, then that's a choice which has been made, possibly as a de facto, but it's how it is and there is no advocacy on the Technology or Inventions projects to change it. IMHO, it's better to have such a linguistic discrepancy (which isn't unusual) than to have an over-verbose set of category names.
For this specific case, it was explained on the Talk:Natural gas page a month ago (unresponded to) and trailed to the longer discussion on the project page. The IP editor was welcome to discuss that, but they didn't: instead they just kept arguing that the agreement simply wasn't in place and reverting regardless.
Finally I would ask people commenting (and I cannot understand what Mandruss is on about) to read this ANI post: it's not about this categories issue (ANI doesn't do content) it's about an angry editor switching to obvious vandalism to re-insert an unsourced and challenged untruth on an unrelated article. That's just deliberate disruption, and that is an ANI issue. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
RU Rob13 keep stalking on me
Latest example here: . Please protect me. Rob has commented in all my BRFA's, my BAG membership and in many more places. Usually, he is the first to comment. I have evvidence that he as been sending emails about me to others. -- Magioladitis (talk)
-- There'sNoTime 21:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Facepalm Are you seriously trying to turn this into a pissing match over edit count or time since registration? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 02:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Done. This could probably have been done by contacting individual admin though, instead of coming to AN/I. And I am puzzled that you cannot use RFPP without Twinkle. Why? Anyway, thanks for the heads up. Alex Shih 08:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
User blocked for that unwarranted attack. And suffice it to say this behaviour reminds me strongly of a particular user who disrupts national invention/discovery categories and casts aspersions as to the racial motivations of editors who revert them. Ivanvector (/Edits) 20:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
