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First Baptist Church (Sutherland Springs, Texas)

I'm not sure if the church is independently notable or not, so I went ahead and directed First Baptist Church (Sutherland Springs, Texas) to this article, for now. Feel free to expand if appropriate. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:39, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Highly unlikely the church was notable before, and anything that needs cocerage should be in this page. Legacypac (talk) 23:07, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Please discuss page moves first

This page was unilaterally moved to "Sutherland Springs shooting" when the fact that it was a church shooting is pretty integral to the event. I've moved it back. Please discuss here first before moving. Thanks. -- Fuzheado | Talk 22:45, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

We don't know if the massacre was religiously-motivated. Even if it was, this is the only notable shooting that's happened in Sutherland Springs. If a mass shooting happened in an office or factory, it's unlikely that we would include office or factory in the article's title. Jim Michael (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

No one implied that it was religiously motivated, so that's not a pre-requisite for that in the title. We have a custom of noting whether massacres are in schools or places of worship as they are of particular human and societal interest. -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:11, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is that so important that it needs to be in the title when it happens at a church or school, but not when it happens at a office, factory, shop etc.? That's inconsistent and doesn't make much sense. Jim Michael (talk) 23:57, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• ’’’Support’’’ Sutherland Springs church shooting as the most appropriate title. The fact it was in a church makes it much more of interest. Legacypac (talk) 23:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

FBI states gunman was white male in his twenties

questions about whether he had a military background and was somehow radicalized, according to ABC News

Perpetrator yet to be identified

I think we should add "...perpetrator yet to be identified..." to the lead temporarily because that is what lots of people are looking for when coming to the article. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Perpetrator

Added perpetrator, Devin Kelley, http://bnonews.com/news/index.php/news/id6701 supported by NYT. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/us/church-shooting-texas.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silver163 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

New York Times confirming Devin p. Kelley from Comal County as shooter.--81.191.117.57 (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2017 (UTC) Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).

User:ChocolateRabbit reverts at Sutherland Springs church shooting

@ChocolateRabbit: Since you have reverted my message on your talk page without the courtesy of any dialogue with me, I am leaving a copy of the message here. Such action does call into question your good faith and cooperativeness.

You have effectively made four reverts on the death count and perpetrator info on that article in opposition to User:Gaia Octavia Agrippa. Please engage in dialogue on the talk page as technically, you could be blocked immediately because of the WP:3RR. The edits: -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:28, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to Fuzheado but ChocolateRabbit is clearly not looking for dialogue so they've been recommended for a block. Gaia Octavia Agrippa 23:36, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Gaia is incorrect with their edits. The perpetrator died in the next county not at the scene of the attack. Legacypac (talk) 23:35, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

@Legacypac: in all fairness, I think Gaia Octavia Agrippa noted that in our prior articles about attacks, the number of fatalities pertains to the entirety of the incident, including any manhunt or confrontations beyond the "shooting." However, that is somewhat beside the point – the issue with ChocolateRabbit is that they are not being communicative, cooperative or assuming good faith by deleting talk page comments, and the WP:ANI comment here: . So it's not a matter of right or wrong, but behavior. -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:50, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Not necessarily do we lump them together. Boston Marathon bombing we split the perp out. Clarity is better and it sure seems that Gaia is edit warring. Legacypac (talk) 23:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

True. So perhaps you two can come to a compromise and break them out separately if that makes sense? -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:57, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

The Boston Marathon bombing is split up because it happened across multiple times and spaces. This attack is still one event. How close does the perpetrator have to be for you to be okay with including them in the one figure? Gaia Octavia Agrippa 23:58, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

(including the perpetrator)

As this is getting a lot people reverting me: "(including the perpetrator)" is added to the |fatalities= when the perpetrator dies during the event. A chase/running away still counts as a continuation of the attack; he did not still have to be at the church. Gaia Octavia Agrippa 23:42, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

You are in the wrong and your wording is misleading. You have already reported one editor for “vandalism” yet you are the one edit warring. My version was very clear. Your version is misleading. Now it says 26 (including the perpetrator) which appears to be wrong. Restore my wording now or I’ll file a 3RR against you. Legacypac (talk) 23:52, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi! "(including the perpetrator)" is indeed the standard wording. Please see 2017 Las Vegas shooting for an example. Gaia Octavia Agrippa 23:55, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

My wording was better. No good reason to remove it. Please restore it. Legacypac (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

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