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This was the most viewed article on Misplaced Pages for the week of December 6–12, 2015; January 31–February 6, February 21–27, February 28–March 5, March 6–12, March 13–19, October 9–15, October 16–22, November 6–12, and November 13–19, 2016; January 15–21 and January 22–28, 2017, according to the Top 25 Report.

	Donald Trump was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 2, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 12, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed September 18, 2016 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2017 Good article nominee Not listed Current status: Former good article nominee

Highlighted open discussions

• #RfC: Should the lead include the fact that Trump enacted, and later reversed, an immigration enforcement policy that forcibly separated children from parents?
• #"many of his public statements were controversial or false"
• #Recap on wealth: what is the most appropriate level of detail for the lede?
• #RfC: Should the lead include a sentence about Trump's racial stance?
• #RfC: Should the summary of Trump's false and controversial statements be updated in the lead?

• v
• e

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
] item
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.

01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 7 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Misplaced Pages's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not preclude bringing up for discussion whether to include media coverage relating to Trump's mental health and fitness. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

'The Apprentice' franchise

@Galobtter: You added the sentence on the international version. I looked for a source on Burnett and Trump co-producing and found info on the BBC producers and one BBC News article on Trump producing which I added to the paragraph. Do you have any other references? The UK version seems to be the only successful and long-running international version. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:08, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for finding a source! No need to delve on other international versions here. I have condensed your new text a bit, as it was partly repeating the previous sentence. Hope you don't mind. Also, the section header does not benefit from specifying "The Apprentice franchise"; at the level of a Trump bio, "The Apprentice" is enough. Finally, are you sure it's worth linking to the UK version in the hatnote? I'd rather limit this to versions in which Trump himself participated, i.e. the original US version and the celebrity derivative. What do you think? — JFG 22:36, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Aren’t you in violation of AAR by reverting my edit? (I may be wrong - I usually am, so someone please enlighten me.) You deleted "franchise" from the section title, I challenged by reinserting and started a discussion on the Talk page. You reverted and then peremptorily - or should I say imperiously - added No need to delve on other international versions here to the Talk page. Wasn’t gonna delve but maybe dwell a little or at least mention in passing. Most of the international versions seem to have bombed or died quietly and unlamented but it looks like a franchise to me. I haven’t found any sources on whether Trump benefited financially or not from all of them (he did and still does in the UK, according to the BBC), but he figured prominently in their promotions ("adapted from US version starring multimillionaire"). The borders between between what this article is lumping under branding and licensing, side ventures, media career, and even real estate, are fluid and pretty arbitrary because he’s always been promoting himself. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

"or should I say imperiously" No, you should not. Please keep the civility restrictions for this page per WP:ARBAPDS in mind when communicating with other editors. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 17:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x: Even if Trump was personally involved in some of the franchised versions, the header should remain brief, hence my preference for just The Apprentice. It is immeditely followed by a hatnote pointing to the main articles of individual versions, so that's clear enough for readers. If Trump was really co-producing the franchise, we could replace the UK link by the franchise link. — JFG 18:04, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Still waiting for response from Galobtter who hasn't edited in a couple of weeks. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:18, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Please see WP:COMPULSORY. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:33, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, as it says on my user page, I'm away till the end of July. The diff you linked to was of me shortening the heading..don't remember adding any sentence about an international version. Galobtter (pingó mió) 00:32, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Galobtter – Sorry, my mistake - I assumed because you added "franchise" to the heading.

JFG – Seems that you were the culprit and that this edit had slipped your mind when you made this one. On November 22, 2016, you added the sentence about Trump and Burnett co-producing the international versions without citing any references, and on June 27, 2018, you removed the sentence with the edit summary that "Not involved in international versions (unless somebody finds a source)". That said, here comes my own mea culpa: I apparently blacked out reading my BBC source because I didn't notice that it only mentions the US versions. I've therefore deleted the sentence, the unrelated ref, and the UK series from the "Main" cross-ref. An unexpected side-effect of my latest round of research: Discovering Trump’s regular Monday appearances as a guest commentator on Fox & Friends, beginning in 2011. And - as an afterthought to the recently closed religion RfC - another incidence of Trump being "really honored" TIME. Starting to think that Trump's definition of "honored" is different from that of English language dictionaries. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:13, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Wow, I had no idea I had added this tidbit two years ago; good I double-checked it recently to find the claim was dubious. I agree with your removal of the non-US versions, makes the section less cluttered. — JFG 21:04, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I must admit I miss the "goofy" picture of Trump from the 2015 campaign. Good old days! — JFG 21:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Even NYT mentioned that in an article https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/us/politics/wikipedia-donald-trump-2016-election.html but I think now that we have a presidential portrait there is no need for such an image. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 19:02, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

"many of his public statements were controversial or false"

See (unclear, potentially misleading and unnecessary). Should it say (A) "many of his public statements were controversial or false" or (B) "many of his public statements were false"

B "false" zzz (talk) 08:21, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Extensively discussed in three discussions linked at #Current consensus item 7. I see no reason to revisit the issue at this point. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I didn't see any discussion of whether to remove "controversial" in "controversial or false". The discussion was about whether to use "false". Please !vote or revert your edit . zzz (talk) 08:28, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

@Signedzzz: If you think a word must be disputed before it has consensus, you're sadly mistaken. If the word "controversial" wasn't specifically debated in those discussions, it's because nobody had a problem with it. The entire sentence was open for discussion, and the entire sentence has consensus. I won't be reverting my revert. If other editors wish to revisit the issue, they are entitled to do so, but the sentence stays as is until there is a new consensus to change it. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support A for two reasons: (1) Many of Trump's statements have been controversial, but not false, and (2) The exact wording we have is the result of an exhaustive discussion and solid consensus. No need to change now, although perhaps in the future we can expand it: "many of his public statements were controversial or false, and frequently described as 'lies'." -- Scjessey (talk) 14:49, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

What do you think "controversial" means in this case? Do you think it is clear to the reader? It isn't to me. zzz (talk) 14:56, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• comment "Controversial" is a euphemism in this context and conveys no specific meaning to our readers. What RS state is that Trump's statements are misleading or false, and factcheckers worldwide have identified an unprecedented rate of such statements. We also have many events related to this, such as Kellyanne/Spicer's "alternative facts" that has entered the English lexicon, and the abundance of RS reporting that those around Trump feel compelled to support his misrepresentations for fear of reprisal in the alternative. And we have numerous reports of egregious and widely noted and mocked instances of such support, e.g. Chief Kelly's lies about Rep. Kelly , Doc. Ronny Jackson's press briefing debacle , and others. So without discarding the valid RfC that received broad participation and withstood various denials of these facts, we should certainly consider updating it with additional text, now that we have the benefit of even more data and RS coverage and discussion of it. SPECIFICO talk 16:22, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment We shouldn't be saying this in Misplaced Pages's voice at all. "...controversial and false" are fine, but not in Wiki-voice - which is what's currently there. Needs to be reworded in a neutral fashion. Otherwise, Misplaced Pages is making a pronouncement about his statements. That's the opposite of what policy states in WP:WikiVoice at WP:NPOV: "Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil." -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 16:42, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• If we go that way - let's call it Plan B - then we would need to accurately reflect the bulk of mainstream reports, which say much much harsher things than the current article text and are apt to seem rather jarring. SPECIFICO talk 18:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. I don't know what purpose is served by saying that a partisan figure's statements have been controversial; that pretty much comes with the territory. However, Trump's frequent mendacity is unusual, even for an American partisan; widely confirmed by reliable sources; rarely if ever denied by reliable sources; and even confirmed in some writing attributed to Trump himself (the "honest exaggeration" stuff). There's no good reason to leave that aspect of his reputation/character out of articles where it is relevant. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
• comment The previous discussions have really focused on the word “false” because that word is controversial, and the word “controversial” isn’t controversial. Frankly, these are two quite different concepts and I don’t think they belong in the same sentence. Lots of politicians take controversial positions. Lots of politicians have an iffy relationship with truth. But, reliable sources tell us that Trump is nearly in a class by himself. Also, I think they are treated separately by the sources. So, yes it could be argued that this is a separate discussion. But, is it important enough for another RfC, during which some editors will start arguing about “false” again? O3000 (talk) 18:54, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
• A – This has been discussed to death, and nothing has changed in Trump's communication style, or in evaluations of his truthiness. — JFG 21:02, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

  Talk about begging the question... What's changed is 1. Documentation of hundreds of significant false statements by factcheckers in many countries, and 2. Having been in office now for 18 months, Trump is now lying about his actions as US President and about the actions and policies of the US Government. RS reports have intensified because they find that these misrepresentations have vastly more far-reaching significance than personal boasts and false claims about personal prowess or past business accomplishment. Please review RS analysis and reporting and offer an alternative that reflects the mainstream view. SPECIFICO talk 12:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

  Yes, and the qualification of Trump's statements as president have also been discussed to death, with the same outcome of "Gee, he's the same guy who campaigned. Yay! For shame! (pick one)". No appetite to revisit the issue. — JFG 14:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

  You're of course under no obligation to present reasoned arguments that address the central issues, but the !votes of such editors will have little/no weight in the close of this matter. SPECIFICO talk 15:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

  That's not a change, it's more of the same. I oppose revisiting every time he lies about something new and those lies get factchecked. Further, if this is so earth-shatteringly important, it also was before the OP brought it up, so why did you wait for him to raise the issue? ―Mandruss ☎ 15:29, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• The change is that he is now in power, per my comment above. RS report the far-reaching societal, military, and economic policy consequences of his lies, whereas pre-election this was a personality or behavioral trait. SPECIFICO talk 15:45, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support A. I agree with others above. Many of his statements were controversial but not outright false. Kerberous (talk) 06:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support A per longstanding and many-times discussed consensus, as well as per JFG, Scjessey, and Kerberous. --MelanieN alt (talk) 18:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• MelanieN, do you feel that "controversial" is related to "false" except in cases where the controversy is related to the lie itself? I continue to read "controversial" here as some kind of euphemism or equivocation. After all, political speech is largely controversial by its nature. Otherwise it wouldn't be political, it would be operating procedures or statute. SPECIFICO talk 19:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• Controversial and false are two different things. His speech is noteworthy for both. --MelanieN alt (talk) 02:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• I agree they are two different things. However, I think the current text suggests that the controversy is about whether they are true or false. But in fact, to continue with the idea that they're 2 different things, the controversial ones are ones like "I'm calling off war games" or "there are good people on both sides" -- but the juxtaposition of these 2 things in the article text suggests that the controversies were things like whether Obama is an alien, whether he had the largest inaugural crowd ever, and other demonstrably false statements. SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support A as per above. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:56, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support A per MelanieN alt. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:15, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• Sorry if I'm late, but Misplaced Pages is supposed to (if not, it should be) unbiased towards both sources and subjects. Just because most people (including me) hate him, it shouldn't exist on the page without a reliable source. And it's unsourced, so there technically isn't any proof given regarding him saying false stuff. Although it's obviously true, something like that needs a source, which is currently lacking. 108.30.110.252 (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

This discussion is about a sentence in the lede. Of course it is unsourced in the lede; the lede is supposed to summarize the article and generally does not include sources. But it is well sourced in the article, see Donald Trump#False statements. We would certainly not include something like this in the article without significant reliable sourcing. --MelanieN alt (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Possibly A with mod - might "criticized as controversial or false" convey things more neutrally and more accurately as something from a source rather than saying it in wikivoice? The article text actually does not seem to support "controversial" at all, though there exist articles about that. The article text also does not support "false" as being significant enough to be in LEAD. Cites supporting "Controversial" are separate from those supporting "false", so this may need a cite at each of those two words. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• This is a discussion for the lede, not the body. Wiki voice is perfectly acceptable when faced with an undeniable, universally agreed upon truth. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I think this is ready to be closed with a fairly substantial support for "A". -- Scjessey (talk) 12:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Should the lead include the fact that Trump enacted, and later reversed, an immigration enforcement policy that forcibly separated children from parents?

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Should the lead include the following sentence?

He enacted, and later reversed, an immigration enforcement policy that forcibly separated children from parents.

- MrX 🖋 11:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• Yes - Trump's family separation policy is still receiving a enormous amount of international coverage in the news nearly three months after Trump enacted it. In fact, it is so significant that we now have several related well-sourced articles about it: Protests against Trump administration family separation policy, Protests against Trump administration family separation policy, Abolish ICE, Women Disobey, and John Moore photograph of Honduran child. By comparison, the lead of this article contains facts that our collective sources consider far less important like " He recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.", "He owned the Miss Universe and Miss USA beauty pageants from 1996 to 2011", "According to March 2018 estimates by Forbes, he is the world's 766th richest person", and " He enacted a partial repeal of the Dodd-Frank Act that had imposed stricter constraints on banks in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. In foreign policy". WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD strongly advise to include significant points in proportion to their coverage in reliable sources. This certainly qualifies. - MrX 🖋 11:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• No per many, many reasons, mainly UNDUE. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:35, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. I would tweak the language to He enacted, and later reversed, an immigration enforcement policy that forcibly separated immigrant children from their parents. Looking at the list of policies from the current term presently in the lede - this policy while not the most noteworthy - does surpass other listed policies in terms of coverage. It might not "make the lede" 2-6 years from now (depending on whatever else is done in office, brevity might require lede removal) - but in terms of present presidential accomplishments - yes - it is lede worthy.Icewhiz (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. Seems obvious. The coverage in RS was massive; and coverage continues despite the Thai cave thingy, another story about children. Certainly seems due a sentence. O3000 (talk) 13:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• No Especially the POV way purposed. Undue and violates NPOV. PackMecEng (talk) 13:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Sort of - I've been thinking about this a lot, and I believe there needs to be a reworking and expansion of an existing sentence instead. All of Trump's immigration policies are related to his desire to restrict the flow of immigrants into the US and (arguably) increase border security. Some would argue that this is Trump signature policy. The lede should reflect that, but it must necessarily add some stuff and remove some of the detail. Consider the following:

During his presidency, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after several legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision.

I would change this to something like:

During his presidency, Trump pushed for a series of immigration policies designed to heighten border security and restrict the flow of immigrants into the country. He ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, called for the construction of a wall along the Mexico–United States border, and enacted an immigration enforcement policy that forcibly separated children from parents, that he later reversed.

I realize this reopens the previous discussion about the travel ban, but I can't see any other way around it that makes sense. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• Yes because this is one of the most important controversies the subject of the page is mostly known for. I would also support the rephrase by Icewhiz and the version by Scjessey above. My very best wishes (talk) 14:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• No – A regrettable policy blunder, yet with no lasting significance. — JFG 14:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Not opposed to a summary of Trump's immigration policy instead, per Scjessey, but it will be very hard to make this short and neutral enough for the lede. — JFG 14:56, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

This is part of an ongoing, resolute pursuit of racial and ethnic themes by Trump and his Administration. No reason to keep it too short. It's one of his 2-3 core issues. The ongoing RS narrative belies any claim the President, Atty. General, Homeland Security, and other Administration departments and officials "blundered" when they adopted an extreme policy shift and public presentation replete with accusations and aspersions, elaborate justifications, and media pandering. If you have RS that call this a "blunder" -- which would itself be an historic level of incompetent error on a par with Cheney/Rumsfeld's Iraq strategy -- please cite your sources for editors to consider here. Today we have more confirmation -- BREAKING: Trump administration says it won’t meet Tuesday deadline to reunite children separated from parents at U.S.-Mexico border -- that this humanitarian disaster is no mere "blunder". This should not be characterized as such without RS citations that credibly call this an inadvertent "blunder". If there are RS that call this a "blunder" these need to be brought to the discussion and evaluated. Otherwise, we should not waste any more time equivocating about the willful actions that have gotten worldwide condemnation. SPECIFICO talk 18:45, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• No The guideline for what should be in the lead of a BLP is MOS:LEADBIO not the number of articles that are responses to it. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:55, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• On Fence Not sure one way or other about this in lede. I would say most definitely in the Presidency article but here not sure. I lean toNo. Definitely something of a major policy blunder, ill thought out and implemented, but its an issue of his Presidency not so much Trump as the person himself.--MONGO (talk) 20:37, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

  But it's Trump's major policy blunder (and so much more). He is the embodiment of the presidency. He is the only person endowed with the enforcement authority of his office. Wouldn't your same argument apply to all of his policies that we so prominently list in the lead? What's different here?- MrX 🖋 18:46, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

  I think a lot of the info in the lead belongs in the presidency article, not his bio. But on this Rfc this is the issue we are discussing. We can discuss the rest of it of course on other Rfc's etc.--MONGO (talk) 20:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Yes. Preferably as part of two concise sentences which summarize the most significant policies and proposals of Trump on immigration: the border wall, the Muslim ban and the family separations. The family separation policy is something that leaves a lasting mark on Trump, Nielsen and the administration officials who helped to implement it and spread falsehoods about what they were doing. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:55, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, per WP:DUE, as clearly not one-off event, but largely animated by Trump's prior and consistent anti-immigrant positions. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• Lean yes. I would say this probably WP:DUE enough for the lead, but the margins are not huge. I strongly disagree with the opinion expressed above by JFG that this is a topic of transient importance; it isn't mere WP:CRYSTAL speculation to say this is definitely a topic of lasting implications and massive scope. But there are lots of topics of lasting implication and massive scope in the lead, by necessity, so that's the real question: WP:WEIGHT. Personally, given the need for economy here, and the additional editorial priorities of encyclopedic context and efficient flow, I would normally wonder if it was better off attached as a clause to broader sentence addressing similar topics, but there's really only one sentence touching upon immigration and due process of law topics, and it is an ill fit for a grafting. But even if it is a little stumpy for a stand-alone sentence, I think this topic probably qualifies for a "Top 10 of his most controversial policies/courses of action as president" for lack of better phrasing and therefore is due for inclusion in the lead. Snow 07:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn't seen that Scjessey had already tread similar ground before me in their comments. I can definitely get behind their proposed version: it combines the most reasonable reading of the three most important policies regarding immigration (and the related topics of operation of law with regard to due process and human rights), which subject matter relates to a major part of his express platform--something he (and the world broadly) sees as a defining trait of his presidency and a source of clout with a substantial majority of his advocates. And both the framing and the individual episodes are expressed in bare bones fashion. It works for me. Snow 08:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Ah, but scjessey could I perhaps suggest a slight tweak in replacing "pushed for" with "effectuated or advocated for" or something similar that is a bit more precise as to the exercise of the powers of his office and political influence? Snow 08:18, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: Absolutely. My suggested text was intended as a first draft jumping off point that I would expect others to help me refine. "Advocated for" sounds good, although reliable sources would even support something as strong as "demanded" when it comes to the wall. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:50, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, because the event received overwhelming and sustained media coverage. Kerberous (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Yes I'm going to add this quote from the judge that is now hearing a class action filed by the ACLU: "The news media is saturated with stories of immigrant families being separated at the border. People are protesting. Elected officials are weighing in. Congress is threatening action. Seventeen states have now filed a complaint against the Federal Government challenging the family separation practice." Here at Misplaced Pages we are not experts on anything. We rely on real experts, federal judges for example, to direct our edits and their importance. Here we see exactly how to treat this issue and it clearly belongs in the lead. Keep in mind that years down the road it may be removed from the lead since nothing in WP is carved in stone - but certainly at the present time it belongs in the lead. Gandydancer (talk) 16:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The source you propose to cite was published on June 26, as the crisis was unfolding. One week later, it was over. Soon, all that will remain is memories of the legitimate outrage at this temporary situation. Therefore, UNDUE. — JFG 16:34, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

RS do not report this is "over". See First, it's UNDUE to call it a "crisis" or "blunder" when it is the ongoing enactment of a considered and calculated policy -- and described as such by the Administration. This has been amply documented on this page. Please review all the discussion. Second, the Administration has now missed the court-mandated deadline for reuniting the children with their parents and RS report that there was no plan or capability to ensure such reunification, despite Administration statements to the contrary. There have been hundreds of demonstrations nationwide, dozens of congressional and gubernatorial visits to the border facilities, and other indicia of significance that warrent detailed article text about these ongoing abuses as another step in the Trump's demonization of Hispanics as criminals, subhumans, and dangerous intruders. SPECIFICO talk 16:54, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Over? Well that is a totally stunning assessment, to say the least. I did not use the June remarks because they were the most significant or the last remarks we shall hear. They just happen to give a good summary. Gandydancer (talk) 17:04, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

(restored part of the hatted section that is directly discussing content) — JFG 21:14, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@JFG: - "Over" and "Blunder" ignore every source, reliable sources, POV-blogs right and left, etc etc -- all of which are discussing the ongoing details of these horrors and (right:) how they are teaching the Hispanics a needed lesson or (left:) showing Trump's disregard for law in order to to demonstrate sympathy with white supremecist narratives. SPECIFICO talk 17:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I stand by my assessment that this story is blown out of proportion because of political tensions in the USA, noting that it is indeed personal opinion. I maintain that the peak of the crisis is behind us, and that people will have jumped to the next scandal by the time this RfC runs its course. (Replies to Godwin point rhetoric omitted) — JFG 17:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Yes (Icewhiz Rework). The original sentence could seem misleadingly broad, but the rework is more specific. To the claim that this topic is WP:UNDUE, I would note that this policy has attracted significant media attention, along with widespread protests. Henry  23:37, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• No - It's borderline undue per WP:LEAD, but mostly it's just not correct. I can overlook the 'enacted' incorrectness, but 'reversed' is untrue, and 'forcibly' is overly dramatic. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• Probably not It seems a little too much detail for the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• Yes - still very relevant and notable, way past any RECENTISM concerns.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• Yes Per Clealy due.Casprings (talk) 10:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• No because it's been quickly reversed. Not to mention that the family separation aspect does not belong, since it's not Trump who managed that aspect – it's actually the 1997 Flores settlement extended to accompanied children by the 9th Circuit Court for Appeals. Some have said that this was very noteworthy – let's wait a few months until recentism settles down to see whether this gains continued coverage. wumbolo ^^^ 12:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wumbolo: You are incorrect, and basically parroting administration talking points. It was the Trump administration, and specifically Jeff Sessions under Trump's direction (presumably because Stephen Miller told him to) who reinterpreted the Flores settlement and enforced the separation policy that was not enforced under previous administrations. And it was only "reversed" under massive public pressure, and in a half-assed way so that hundreds and hundreds of children are still separated. Just yesterday, it was reported that the parent of one of the separated children was deported, effectively making the child an orphan. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:03, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Scjessey: No, you are incorrect. Jeff Sessions did not "reinterpret the Flores settlement", he followed it to a T. To cite the American Immigration Lawyers Association:

July 6, 2016 — The Ninth Circuit held that the Flores settlement agreement applies both to minors who are accompanied and unaccompanied by their parents, and that the lower court correctly refused to amend the agreement to accommodate family detention. The court also found that the lower court erred in interpreting the agreement to provide an affirmative right to release for accompanying parents, but did not preclude such release and explicitly made no determination about whether DHS is making otherwise appropriate and individualized release determinations for parents. (Flores v. Lynch, 7/6/16) (bold emphasis added)

and the 1997 settlement, DHS could detain unaccompanied children captured at the border for only 20 days before releasing them to foster families, shelters or sponsors, pending resolution of their immigration cases. FactCheck.org wumbolo ^^^ 13:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wumbolo: You misunderstand. Regardless of what Flores says, no administration enforced separation until Trump's did. Ergo, TRUMP is responsible. Compare it to the multi-decade policy of US administrations that stated an intention to move the US embassy in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. It was deferred by many presidents because of the delicate political situation. Then TRUMP came along and decided to enforce the previously stated policy and get the embassy moved. This kind of thing is common, but it is important for you to understand that per reliable sources, TRUMP is to blame. TRUMP separated families. TRUMP orphaned children. TRUMP lost children. No other administration did anything like this. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

No children are lost .--MONGO (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Respectfully, both of you are out in the weeds here. Please refamiliarize yourselves with WP:Original research and stop filling up talk threads with extended debate about why Trump and his policies should or should not be described in this or that way, based upon your own internal logic--no matter how confident you are in that logic and no matter how many people here seem to support it. That is not how we arrive at descriptions in our content for this encyclopedia. Instead, please predicate your arguments on the WP:WEIGHT of how reliable sources describe the subject, his policies, and his actions. And yes, Scjessey, I do see that you paid lip-service to RS at the end there, but only after extensive ruminations connecting the dots with your own logic; you also did not cite any sources to support your assertions, let alone establish that said assertions are the general message of all sources on the matter (or otherwise WP:DUE). Snow 01:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• No - Seems like pretty obvious WP:RECENTISM. NickCT (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
• No per RECENTISM and the fact that the word "policy" is controversial here.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  15:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Controversial? Sessions announced it as a policy. SPECIFICO talk 16:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree--or at least I agree with your conclusion, though I arrive at it via a different line of reasoning. The reason it is not controversial for us to describe the practice as a "policy" is not directly because Sessions announced it (that reasoning is WP:Original research; we aren't allowed to decide for ourselves how to describe a practice based on our own rationale, no matter how solid we feel the logic of our interpretation to be). Rather, the reason editors should (and have) constructed our prose to describe the practice as a "policy" in this and related articles is because that is how it is very clearly described in the overwhelming majority of the WP:reliable sources. It's a matter of WP:WEIGHT/WP:NPOV, not independent reasoning. That caveat noted, I agree that Mr. Guye's assertion does not hold water. Snow 00:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• No - I object to the and later reversed language at this time; it's not yet clear that the policy has been fully reversed, and even if it has been reversed, its effects have not been reversed. As a version without that language would also have problems, the best thing to do is leave it out of the lead at this time, and discuss it only in the body, where there is room for such nuance. power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

That's a really good point that has gotten kind of lost in the weeds here while attention was focused on the recentism/lasting import debate. Honestly, I for one hadn't thought about the issue raised by that second clause at all, until you raised it--though it seems obvious now in hindsight. But can I ask, if we addressed your concerns there by omitting reference to the "reversal" or nuancing the wording to reflect that the future of the practice is in question, would you otherwise be in support of inclusion? Snow 00:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

If there's a wording to the effect of "His child-separation policy was the subject of much discussion and controversy", I'm fine with it. (That specific wording is awful). power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• No - Coverage in the body of the page is of course acceptable but it would be WP:UNDUE to include in the lead. Meatsgains 00:51, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• No - WP:UNDUE in the lead. Govindaharihari (talk) 05:24, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Not for now. It seems too early to tell if this is so important that it belongs in a 5-paragraph summary of Trump's life. My suspicion is no, so I'd leave it out for now. However if secondary sources are highlighting this story as one of the defining stories of his presidency say, a month or two from now, then I'd be inclined to include at that point. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. Based on the coverage it's one of the most noteworthy aspects of his biography. --Aquillion (talk) 17:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Process discussion: Immigration

@MrX: I can see why you might skip the BOLD edit for something like this, since a challenge would be close to certain. But why are you going straight to RfC? WP:RFCBEFORE: "Editors are normally expected to make a reasonable attempt at working out their disputes before seeking help from others. If you are able to come to a consensus or have your questions answered through discussion with other editors, then there is no need to start an RfC." Where is the failed attempt to reach a consensus? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

@Mandruss: I already made the bold edit. JFG reverted it with the edit summary "Not impactful enough for the lede". Given how most discussions on the 89 pages of this talk page devolve into digressions and derailments, I thought it best to have a formal request for comments.- MrX 🖋 12:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Statement removal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The third paragraph of the introductory section states "many of his public statements were controversial or false", which isn't necessarily true. This seems a bit biased, and knowing Misplaced Pages is a place that should be 100% free of any bias, this statement should be removed or re-worded. 108.30.110.252 (talk) 9 July 2018

Maybe it's asking too much to expect editors new to an article to do a little poking around in its archives before posting. I don't know. But a quick scan of the table of contents? See #"many of his public statements were controversial or false" above. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is supposed to be unbiased toward reliable sources, not toward article subjects. TFD (talk) 02:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

That shouldn't matter. Misplaced Pages is supposed to (if not, it should be) unbiased towards both sources and subjects. Just because most people (including me) hate him, it shouldn't exist on the page without a reliable source. It's unsourced, by the way. 108.30.110.252 (talk) 22:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I think it was intended to characterize the cites situation generally rather than a close paraphrase of just one cite. Could a rephrase help the concern ? "many of his his public statements were criticized as controversial or false" seems able to find cites about controversial statements, and seperately cites that ping parts as false. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:41, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2018

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the introduction, the sentence "His campaign received extensive free media coverage; many of his public statements were controversial or false" shows very clear political bias on the part of the editor: I recommend taking out the "or false" part as it is clearly a case of the writer's bias. When I read a Misplaced Pages article I expect to read facts, not someone's overt bias against a prominent figure.

Quite frankly, as a reader I am offended reading statements like this: it is as if the writer is trying to tell me how to think instead of presenting unbiased information to me. It also makes me question the overall truth value and validity of this page. 96.236.208.42 (talk) 06:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Gain consensus for any changes first, but the label "false" is widely used by reliable sources and doesn't need removal unless there's consensus to do so EvergreenFir (talk) 06:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

You might also read the thread immediately preceding this one. Misplaced Pages's difficult mission is to accurately reflect reliable sources, not to avoid offending readers. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

My concern about the inclusion of "or false" isn't that it's biased or incorrect. (While I haven't looked at the sources I trust there has been sufficient vetting of the multiple sources supporting the claim.) My concern is that it is bad English. I suspect any competent English teacher would be marking this up with red pencil if it appeared in a student paper.

Virtually all campaigners have a finite budget for media and that budget is not enough to buy all the media they would like. Thus, generally speaking, candidates are happy when they get free media coverage (with some exceptions which we will get to very shortly.) Candidates often have to worry about whether to make bland statements which don't say very much (to avoid turning off potential voters) or to make more controversial statements which will simultaneously turn off some voters but attract some others, and ideally will generate some free media coverage. It is without dispute that Trump was at the controversial end of the spectrum, so the statement that many of his public statements were controversial is support for the "extensive free media coverage" aspect of the sentence.

False statements are a different kettle of fish. I'll repeat—I'm not disputing the word, but while controversial statements lead to free media coverage that is almost always positive, false statements are little more problematic. If a candidate makes a statement that gains media coverage solely so the media can refute it and paint the candidate as a liar, this technically might generate free media coverage but the implication of the rest of the sentence is that free media coverage is desirable. While there is a famous statement that any coverage is positive as long as you get your name spelled correctly, I doubt that experts fully concur.

Actually, OR is relevant, but I suggest you have it almost exactly backwards. The linkage between "controversial" and "free media" does have some missing steps, and argually takes some OR to link the two, though it is my opinion that this reach isn't too far. The problem is that linking "false" statements with "free Media" does require some OR (or the filling in of the missing steps), so I object to the juxtaposition of "false" and "free media". I don't know why you repeated that it is a fact that he makes false statements - I don't think I could have been clearer, but I'll repeat. Duh yeah, of course. My issue isn't that it's false (so to speak) but that the juxtaposition of false statements with free media is a false linkage.

Arguably, a statement that is controversial and turns out to be false might generate some free media coverage and it might be a net positive if there is substantial coverage at the time of the statement, but less coverage of the rebuttal of the claim. In some cases, statements by candidates are covered only because they have been shown to be false. It's hard to imagine this being positive.

In summary, the sentence without the closing two words is relevant news or the an undeniably supportable. Adding "or false" leads to a whole host of questions that need answering, which is clearly beyond the scope of a summary sentence in the lead.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:22, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

It strikes me that you're getting too deep into analysis and possibly OR here. It's just a fact that he makes more false statements than have been documented for any other politician. So we just need a simple descriptive mention of that in the lead. As I and others have discussed above, the juxtaposition with "controversial" is unfortunate for reasons you allude to in your comment. SPECIFICO talk 21:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, OR is relevant, but I suggest you have it almost exactly backwards. The linkage between "controversial" and "free media" does have some missing steps, and argually takes some OR to link the two, though it is my opinion that this reach isn't too far. The problem is that linking "false" statements with "free Media" does require some OR (or the filling in of the missing steps), so I object to the juxtaposition of "false" and "free media". I don't know why you repeated that it is a fact that he makes false statements - I don't think I could have been clearer, but I'll repeat. Duh yeah, of course. My issue isn't that it's false (so to speak) but that the juxtaposition of false statements with free media is a false linkage.

The main article fleshes out the false statement nicely. It also discusses controversial statements (although the coverage is more meandering. The problem is the infusion of the two disparate ideas in the same sentence.

I'm simply observing that the sentence attempts to make two unrelated points in one sentence. That doesn't strike me as "too deep into analysis".--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I submit that any related discussion should be at #"many of his public statements were controversial or false". This thread and the preceding one both violated the principle of not fragmenting discussions, both were very forgivable from inexperienced editors, and both were immediately corrected for benefit of not only those editors but all others participating on this page. Sphilbrick, it's beyond me why you continued here. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I apologize if you have created some structure I missed. I'm not a regular here, and have no idea how I should have known that my comment belonged elsewhere. Nor do I yet see how I should have known. It is standard in many places to close a discussion which is in the wrong place. Why not here? How are editors who rarely visit here supposed to know about unwritten rules?

I've now read the link you provided and suggest it was incompetently constructed. If I were presented with a choice between (A) "many of his public statements were controversial or false" or (B) "many of his public statements were false" I'd probably go with (A) as well. Is it true that "many of his public statements were controversial or false"? Of course. So why on earth am I objecting (I hope you are asking)? Because the question asked omits that the entire sentence is:

His campaign received extensive free media coverage; many of his public statements were controversial or false.

That construction leaves the impression that the post semi-colon points relate to the pre-semi-colon assertion. I am in full agreement that controversial statements led to extensive and net positive free media coverage, but I don't think one can say the same about false statements. The two concepts deserve discussion, but they should be separated. I see that one contributor to the discussion (O3000 ) made that point, but I think it got lost, becuase the beginning of the sentence was not mentioned.

That attempt to identify consensus should be thrown out because it was ill-formed. Let's start over with the full sentence. If a consensus wants to supported incompetent English phrasing, Ill not fight the consensus, but let's at least have the discussion. --S Philbrick(Talk) 16:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Second paragraph

The second paragraph of the lead needs a make over. It's far too focused on Trump's persona during the campaign, and it notably omits the fact that he continues to emit falsehoods, and that a great many of his actions and comments are controversial. There also needs be some mention of the public perception of his racial views, along the lines of the first sentence of the 'Racial views' section. Any thoughts on how we can update this paragraph? - MrX 🖋 16:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this. As has previously been discussed on this page, it is a very different matter for a candidate to make false statements and even to pander to some religious or ideological voter factions. RS discuss this behavior as being far more significant when an officeholder, POTUS, is lying about the operations, laws, and policies of the US government and his administration. RS also increasingly discuss this as a personality trait or a signature style of Trump as a public figure, clearly making such article text important for this biography article. SPECIFICO talk 17:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't see any problem. This paragraph is the one that has received the most scrutiny, to the point that almost every word has been adjudicated by community consensus. In particular, mentioning racial views has been rejected (#24 Do not include allegations of racism in the lead.) Since the relevant discussion in February, I don't see much new information about such views or criticism thereof that would change the consensus. But obviously, you can try. — JFG 17:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

No, "racial views" was not rejected; "Allegations of racism" was.- MrX 🖋 17:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Come on, you know damn well that all the talk about his purported "racial views" is a collection of allegations of racism. I don't see a way to mention racial views without alleging racism. If we want to quote his "racial views", all we can say is that he said he's "the least racist person", and that is not very convincing, is it? — JFG 19:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

No it's not, and we have been through this before. We can simply say that Trump's words and actions have been described as racially charged at various point in his life, and increasingly so as he pursued and attained the office of president. That is backed by excellent sources that have covered it in exhaustive depth.- MrX 🖋 20:03, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

That's the definition of allegation. עם ישראל חי (talk) 20:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Don't many of his public statements were controversial or false and His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. suffice? --Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 17:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I guess I wasn't clear in the OP. The current wording is about his campaign. We're way past that.- MrX 🖋 17:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Assuming someone is willing to pull together enough solid RS links, I'll support taking the "controversial or false" thing out of campaign context, possibly by moving it to the end of the para and changing "were" to "have been". But given the highly controversial nature I think that warrants a separate thread. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

It's simply not credible on the one hand for us to decry RECENTISM and then on the other hand to call "consensus" on stale and outdated content that needs to be recast to reflect our subsequent and current knowledge and available sources. Let's get to the substance here and not "head 'em off at the pass". The current content is stale. BTW, to repeat myself, I'd be fine blowing up the "consensus list" if it's going to be a crutch or barrier that prevents article improvement. SPECIFICO talk 18:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

To repeat myself, please discuss changes to established process separately. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The point is -- let's not use some list as an excuse to canonize and codify inaccurate Misplaced Pages articles. SPECIFICO talk 18:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

My point is that that's off topic in a content discussion, and it will not be resolved in one, so why distract from the content discussion by even mentioning it? ―Mandruss ☎ 18:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Because an editor cited list #24 to deflect from conversation about improving the article and I rebutted that. SPECIFICO talk 19:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Your assumption of bad faith is noted. Look who's deflecting about process, in thread after thread after thread. — JFG 19:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry SPECIFICO, I don't see that. I do see an editor citing #24 because that's established process at this article. I also see you casting aspersions, with zero support from other editors, yet again. Speaking only for myself, you're becoming quite tiresome. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The list of consensus items is so that editors don't boldly edit over existing consensus. Besides, #24 is not what we're talking about. Let's stay on topic.- MrX 🖋 19:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

There's a novel idea. Stay on topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Rough draft 1

Commentators have described Trump's political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. Many of his public statements have been false or controversial, and many have been perceived as racially motivated. Since his childhood, he has been described as brash and bombastic—personal characteristics that helped further his business and political goals. Trump was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, become the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election while losing the popular vote. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests.

Putting this draft out there as a thought starter to get the ball rolling.- MrX 🖋 20:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

His childhood??? — JFG 20:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Yesss. If you ever have a chance, read some of the excellent 600+ sources already in the article that cover his military school and college years. - MrX 🖋 20:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I know all this, but since when do we mention childhood/teen observations in BLP ledes? If we just want to convey an impression of Trump's character, we already say he revels in controversy; whether it "helped further his business and political goals" is a matter of opinion, therefore totally undue. — JFG 21:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

• I Oppose this rough draft and the other suggestions here. In particular, I strongly oppose putting anything about his racial views or public perception of them in the lede. I also oppose the description of his personality as "brash and bombastic". We have nothing like this in lede of other biographies about presidents, and offhand I don't see anything about it in the article text here, which is the only place we could even consider adding it. To make an obvious point based on WP:LEDE, proposing to add it to the lede without any support from the text is a non-starter. If someone wants to start a separate discussion about moving the "controversial or false" material out of the campaign paragraph I am willing to look at that. And just to clarify: I assume you are not proposing to delete the opening sentence of that paragraph, "Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries." --MelanieN alt (talk) 20:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

  The lead should cover significant points, irrespective o whether they have already been written into the body o the article. His brashness and bombasticness are an important thread in this biographical tapestry. 20:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrX (talk • contribs)

Per WP:LEDE: "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. ... The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. ... Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Come on, this is Misplaced Pages 101. --MelanieN alt (talk) 20:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

How many times do I have to say that the draft is a thought starter? It is not proposed to be plunked into the article as is. Helpful contributions to improving the second paragraph are welcomed.- MrX 🖋 21:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the first sentence is detail that doesn't belong in the lead. - MrX 🖋 20:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

"Detail"? You have GOT to be kidding. Not include a sentence in the lede about the primary campaign, which was hotly contested, lasted for a front-page-coverage year, and has its own separate Misplaced Pages article? And yet you want to add some uncited nonsense about his brash and bombastic personality? Please let’s refocus on what the lede is supposed to do: summarize the most important parts of the article. --MelanieN alt (talk) 21:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The primary campaign would be lead worthy for the campaign article or perhaps the presidency article, but not this one. On the other hand, Trump's enduring character has been extensively written about and would make this a better biography.- MrX 🖋 01:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The purpose of the draft was to get others to participate in improving this content, not to suggest that it be put in the article in that form. What are your ideas?- MrX 🖋 20:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Leave it alone. The proposals I have seen so far are not improvements. --MelanieN alt (talk) 21:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I would like to hear from others if you don't mind, but your comments are noted.- MrX 🖋 01:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I have concerns about that sentence as well. Any diversion of this sort which focuses on describing Trump's character is frought with POV pitfalls, especially where the woridng implies that these are his innate qualities that have been attested throughout his life. If attempted at all in the article (and I question the encyclopedic value of focusing too much attention here when there is so much to say about his actions, statements, and policies and their impact) it would need to be done where proper context and careful attribution can take place. Shoe-horning in a statement which (no matter how carefully crafted) is always going to be received by a substantial number of readers as a "have you heard the mouth on this guy?" dog whistle--and more broadly, is just always going to be too problematic as an NPOV matter, if placed in the lead. If we engage at all in a discussion of Trump's social character, we need a larger palette to state these matters and base them in well-attributed sourcing such that they have a neutral flow.

I'm much more open to discussion of the race issue in the lead. If we were talking about anyone less controversial in general, discussion of some of his blatantly racist statements would be taking place in the first few sentences, and I see no reason to omit commentary on those statements from the lead altogether. Personally, I think "racially-motivated" is inaccurate though; this is a turn of phrase that is usually reserved for when someone says something that, on its face, has nothing to do with race, but which observers believe is in fact motivated by race, because it impacts upon racial issues. Trump's controversial statements with regard to race, on the other hand, tend to be expressly about race (Mexican "rapists" and so forth). So I would favour "racially-charged", or some such, as the descriptor. Some of his policies, on the other hand, could be reasonably described as "racially-motivated". I don't know how firmly established the previous consensus was for keeping race out of the lead, so I don't know if it is pragmatic and appropriate to re-litigate the matter at this time, but my personal impression is that it is WP:DUE; not many sitting presidents in the modern era have gone on public record to make the racial comments that Trump has. Snow 01:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not attached to the "brash and bombastic" piece, or really any other characterization of his personality in the lead. I only threw it out there because several biographical sources touch on it and the lead seems to be lacking something that encapsulates who Trump is or a summation of what makes him special. I tend to agree that if we are to summarize his racial attitude, then "racially-charged" seems about right. Note: I wrote "racial attitude" instead of "racial views" specifically to avoid the typical objection that Trump's only racial view is that he is not racist. - MrX 🖋 02:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, his only self-attested racial view, anyway. I personally feel confident that there is enough of a wealth of sources talking about his other interpreted/received racial views that we could discuss them, even in the lead--provided that they are well-attributed and do not reflect a value judgement in Misplaced Pages's voice. Along the same lines, I understand why it is a non-starter to describe Trump as a racist in the lead, but there's nothing in terms of policy restraining us from noting that some of his statements and proposed policies have themselves been viewed as racist, by a large number of both primary and secondary sources (and a huge swath of the world's population). That's just fidelity with the sources and reality and doesn't require personal interpretation or synthesis on our part. Nor is this something that needs to be constrained to the article on his presidency; he has a history of controversial behaviour in this regard that goes much further back into the public record. Snow 02:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Well said.- MrX 🖋 11:00, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose this rough draft and the other suggestions here as insufficient cause to stir up things, apparently done on whim or just editor preference. This article should be following the guides of WP:BLP and WP:LEAD, seek to focus on Biographical information, and must be written conservatively. UNDUE insertion of opinion editors and critics is not appropriate. Reproduction of the Presidency article is not desired. Jumping to edits in the lead is to be discouraged. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:57, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

  The current lead give undue emphasis to the campaign, and Trump's Forbes ranking, and undue lack of coverage of Trump's racial views which have been the subject of extensive, sustained coverage. WP:LEAD requires that we cover all significant points in the article, of which Trump's racial attitude stands out as a very important one. Your interpretation of BLP seems to be that anything negative about a subject can't be covered in the lead. Or perhaps you are interpreting "must be written conservatively" in a political sense. In my view, we cannot omit something as pervasively and extensively reported as Trump's racial stance simply because people don't like it, or because they prefer to see the lead filled with laudatory praise of Trump's stunning wealth, golf courses, and brilliant political achievements. - MrX 🖋 10:57, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose all of it. Not sure why the changes since we just got through talking about all these points recently, or least in last 6 months anyway.--MONGO (talk) 11:48, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

There's no reason to shut down this discussion because the first working draft was not perfect. WP is not the platform for hagiography of public figures. Moreover, even Americans who support Trump for his role in promoting a certain political agenda routinely discuss his many deviations from established standards and expectations. I think the deleted wording about his public manner can be restored later in some form, as it relates to article content. Meanwhile I suggest removing the "or controversial, and many have been perceived as racially motivated" from its current location, since the false statements are not confined to race-related matters. I would locate it instead at the end to read "His election and policies have been controversial, and many have been perceived them to be racially motivated." I think we should offer suggestions to OP and let him be the one to edit the proposed text so that we do not end up with half a dozen alternative versions, since we know from past discussions that these are difficult to resolve. SPECIFICO talk 11:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)T

• Comment For comparison, here's the relevant part of Barack Obama's lead: In 2008, he was nominated for president a year after his campaign began and after a close primary campaign against Hillary Clinton. He was elected over Republican John McCain and was inaugurated on January 20, 2009. For Bill Clinton: Clinton was elected president in 1992, defeating incumbent Republican opponent George H. W. Bush. At age 46, he became the third-youngest president and the first from the Baby Boomer generation. For George H. W. Bush: In 1988, Bush ran a successful campaign to succeed Reagan as President, defeating Democratic opponent Michael Dukakis. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:00, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the Clinton and Bush examples do a much better job of covering only the significant points.- MrX 🖋 18:12, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Mention of Forbes ranking in the lede

Our third paragraph of the lede, the one about his business activities, currently ends with the sentence According to March 2018 estimates by Forbes, he is the world's 766th richest person, with a net worth of US$3.1 billion. Have we ever discussed this? I agree that we need to convey the extent of his wealth in some way in the lede, and we do have a significant section in the article on the subject. But to list a constantly-shifting and rather arbitrary ranking seems inappropriate for the lede. Can anyone think of a better way to convey his wealth - one that is more general, more generic, and will not need to be monitored and updated all the time? I don't really have a suggestion in mind, I am just looking for discussion and ideas. --MelanieN alt (talk) 16:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

How about "During the campaign, Trump claimed a net worth of over $10 billion dollars and said that his net worth changes depending on how he feels day-to-day. Independent investigators have concluded Trump's claims are vastly overstated." SPECIFICO talk 16:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Why use a dated claim from the campaign? Trump did not suddenly start claiming to be rich or a billionaire at that point. Who are these "Independent investigators"? Are they RS's or just ant-Trump? How is it vastly overstated? Did they say his net worth was that he was not a billionaire or something? Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 17:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

We agreed back in 2016 to update the figure only once a year; I don't think that's an awful burden… — JFG 16:35, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

General, generic, stable: "Trump is a multi-billionaire." I'm not sure that's an improvement. I certainly don't have a problem with updating two figures in the lead annually. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Given that the lede already calls him the wealthiest president ever, I think we could dispense with the estimate completely. Interested readers can see that in the infobox. I'd rather remove it than resorting to vague statements. — JFG 16:51, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I propose we replace it with According to Forbes 2018 estimates, he has a net worth of US$3.1 billion. This version includes a wikilink to Forbes so interested readers can easily just click that. It does not specify the month March which is just the publication date and may lag from the research date, even though I admit that in the case of Trump this effect will probably be negligible. My proposal removes the ranking as being 766th richest person is hardly the most notable thing in the world for a man of this much notability. Furthermore it shortens the sentence in an already long lead. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 17:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I support removing "the world's 766th richest person" from the lead, and have no opinion on any other changes. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Support removing the ranking as well. Would keep the month to avoid any disputes. — JFG 17:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, we can even remove the date of estimate entirely. Proposed wording:

Forbes estimates his net worth to $3.1 billion.

Thoughts? — JFG 17:42, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Forbes is a reliable source for this information. Unless it's contested by other reliable sources, we should just write "His net worth is estimated at $3.1 billion".- MrX 🖋 18:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• It's clear to me that this article is more of a CV than a biography, so why does it matter? The fact that we include trivia about his ranking on a single publication's vanity list and his defeating 16 opponents in a primary (as if it we're reporting basketball scores), while ignoring far more relevant content that reaches back 40 years means we're failing our readers miserably. Hell, you can't even tag material without someone swooping in to spuriously remove the tag. I oppose any major changes to the lead until the glaring issues in paragraph two are addressed in a meaningful way. That should be the priority. - MrX 🖋 17:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

An indication of his net worth is not trivia; I'd rather remove the extended trivia about being the oldest and wealthiest president, fifth to lose the popular vote, etc. In prior discussions, we were debating which estimate to use and we settled on the yearly Forbes list, which has a pretty solid reputation. No reason to switch to another source, or to somehow elude the fact that Trump is very wealthy. Discussion about what you consider "glaring issues in paragraph two" should continue in the above thread. — JFG 17:50, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

His wealth is not trivial; the Forbes ranking absolutely is, irrespective of their "reputation". Yes, I do think the other listverse trivia should be removed as well, but not so we can make room for more PolitiCruft™. How about some nice cohesive paragraphs that artfully summarize the essence of the subject?- MrX 🖋 18:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The Forbes list is nonsense. Trump's wealth comprises privately-held assets and enterprise values. This is simply not verifiable by the likes of Forbes. Indeed, we know that it is unreliable -- first because Trump's wealth is not in publicly-reported or -valued assets, necessitating all kinds of assumptions and estimates -- and second, because we have RS accounts of his attempts to manipulate Forbes. SPECIFICO talk 18:54, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Bloomberg made their own independent estimates, and they are in the same ballpark as what Forbes has stated ($3B). They are naturally way lower than what Trump has claimed for himself ($10B+). Those are the best estimates that are publicly available, and they are highly credible. Trump has been submitted to so much scrutiny over decades, that if those numbers were far off the mark, that would have come to light. — JFG 19:06, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Unless you mean that Mike Bloomberg himself made the estimate, I'm afraid that $60,000/year Bloomberg reporters are more or less as ill-equipped as their Forbes counterparts to figure out how much Mr. Trump is worth. It's just drivel and we're not here to reflect self promotion, drivel, trivia, or nonsense. SPECIFICO talk 20:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Your disparagement of Bloomberg and Forbes reporters is unfounded. If you have better sources, present them. — JFG 20:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that the estimates are made by $60,000/year reporters as opposed to $150,000/year analysts? Aren't you the one always complaining about original research on this page? ―Mandruss ☎ 20:42, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

"Analysts?" What like securities analysts? Working at websites to push clickbait fodder? Huh? I've placed dozens of stories with financial journalists and they are bright, hardworking, earnest, and more or less easily deceived by the likes of Trump (although never by me.) This is not my OR -- it's known to anyone who's familiar with journalism and the trade press in any industry. Part of what we do here is evaluate sources and article content. These top ten list clickbait cover stories are not worth the paper they aren't written on. SPECIFICO talk 20:51, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I think SPECIFICO makes a good point. If major publications can't agree on a number (and apparently for good reason), we should treat the numbers as suspect. Perhaps we should say "sources estimate his wealth between X and Y".- MrX 🖋 20:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

JFG said above that Forbes and Bloomberg are in the same ballpark on Trump. Do you dispute that? If they are within about 20% I dispute your premise that "major publications can't agree on a number". ―Mandruss ☎ 21:13, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, if you allow your personal knowledge to supersede reliable sources, it's original research. If you have any information that Forbes is not considered a reliable source for this kind of information, please present it. Or we can take a field trip to RSN. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't dispute that JFG said that. I don't think we should be talking about ballparks of uncertainty that would feed a small nation. We have the option of expressing it as a range or leaving it out. I guess we could also examine other sources and see whether more of them support the Forbes figure or the Bloomberg figure. Or maybe former television personality Larry Kudlow has some thoughts about it.- MrX 🖋 21:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

This species of specious list-gossip chatter is not subject to the same standards of rigor that Bloomberg sometimes applies to some of its news reporting. Forbes I would not even dignify with the term "news reporting" in any context. This is simply not fact it's chit-chat for the bourgeoisie. "Forbes Capitalist Tool" -- Inside baseball for the capitalist-admiring masses. It's horse-pucky for the rest of us. SPECIFICO talk 21:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

See above. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion here that we remove "he is the xxxth richest person in the world". Several people have suggested removing it; does anyone want to keep it? If no one objects in next 24 hours or so we could probably go ahead and delete that - while continuing to discuss how to get some idea of his wealth across. Good suggestions so far, keep 'em coming. --MelanieN alt (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2018 (UTC) P.S. I am seeing quite a bit of support for listing the Forbes annual number, as per Emir and JFG and MrX with slightly different versions; how do people feel about that general concept? --MelanieN alt (talk) 20:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Other sources like Bloomberg Billionaires Index and Wealth-X list it at $2.84B and ≥$3.8B , so other sources do at different times give different estimates. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

How about we just say his estimated assets are approximately 3 billion?--MONGO (talk) 21:35, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Would work for me, but it's net worth not assets. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Cool!--MONGO (talk) 21:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The fact is that everything we see and associate with him -- the things that lead folks to believe that he is wealthy -- may very well be paid for by his investors, who profit from the appearance of wealth at the core of his brand. Plenty of folks say he's worth far less than $1 billion, let alone a multiple of that. We can just say he claims to be very wealthy and promotes a lifestyle and appearance consistent with that. SPECIFICO talk 21:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That's mostly OR. Plenty of folks say he's worth far less than $1 billion - "Plenty of folks" is not a reliable source. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:51, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Mandruss, I had assumed that you were more familiar with RS discussions of his wealth and business adventures. Do you really think anyone proposed to cite "plenty of folks"?? Nah. Stick on point. SPECIFICO talk 22:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages's definition, Trump is a billionaire. We don't need to say how may billions, and we don't need the non-standard (and terribly gauche) "multi-billionaire" either. It should simply say this:

According to Forbes, he is a billionaire.

That's all we need. The citation can refer to the March 2018 article where specifics are given that can verify the term. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:09, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable -- and if there is no article about his claims of wealth and the like, that would be a good one to start. That's where we can air all the evidence and issues. SPECIFICO talk 22:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Are you proposing creating "Wealth of Donald Trump"? Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 22:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, do you think it's a good idea? Surely it's a notable topic. I'm not likely to have the time to work on it soon, but that would be the place to assemble the many sources that apparently are not known even to some of our most active editors. SPECIFICO talk 00:44, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

It is something that has crossed my mind multiple times and I was surprised it did not exist. The problem would if it would comply with WP:NOTEVERYTHING. There is no doubt that there is lot of sources about his wealth and wealth estimates differing from Forbes, but I wonder how an encyclopedic article could be made with the article just becoming a list of every Forbes estimate and this would literally be thousands if not more with their real time estimates. --Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 22:57, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I think there's quite a lot of RS discussion of Trump's claims of wealth, the evidence relating to specific claims, and the strengths and weaknesses of various independent estimates, of which Forbes is only the most famous. SPECIFICO talk 00:26, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

That is true but I struggle to see how it could form an encyclopedic article and not fall into some essay style analysing the multiple claims or even worse falling into WP:OR. --Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 15:00, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Recap

As noted by MelanieN alt, we seem to have consensus to remove the "world's 766th richest" ranking. For the mention of his wealth, we have a few options on the table:

• Option A: say nothing, just keep the link to "wealthiest president ever".
• Option B: He is a billionaire.
• Option C: His net worth is roughly $3 billion.
• Option D: Forbes estimates his net worth to $3.1 billion.
• Option E: Financial publications have estimated his net worth to roughly $3 billion.
• Option F: Financial publications have estimated his net worth to roughly $3 billion, while he claims "more than $10 billion" and some commentators place it as low as $250 million.
• adding Option G (as proposed during discussion): Since he is a successful businessman, he has a net worth of several billion dollars and provides employment opportunities for over 20,000 people. --MelanieN alt (talk) 17:06, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• adding option H (as proposed during discussion): Keep it as it is, i.e. According to March 2018 estimates by Forbes, he is the world's 766th richest person, with a net worth of US$3.1 billion. --MelanieN alt (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Exact phrasing can change, but these are the main choices as regards the level of detail we want to cover. All of this is corroborated in the article's "Wealth" section. What do y'all think is the most appropriate level of detail for the lede? — JFG 04:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• I support D or E. A omits an important fact, B is too vague, C begs the question "says who?", F is too much non-credible detail. — JFG 04:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• Keep as is - Generally seems not worth recovering the ground again (and question propriety of suddenly announcing prior consensus (not looked at) is tossed in favor of whatever shows up within 24 hours, and 'no change' is not even given as an option) -- weak second remark stick with previously discussed standard of Forbes should still remain. There's an archives search box at the top of this page that shows how much Forbes has been discussed, Forbes has a high WP:WEIGHT in external coverage (a simple google shows 45 million hits), Forbes dollar amount as being a billionaire and relative standing in the Forbes list] is often listed in articles and WP lead of BLP articles as apparently regarded as biographically important even when there are other things in their life they might be better known for. (e.g. Michael Bloomberg, Elon Musk, Carl Icahn, Zhou Qunfei). This *is* still supposed to be a BLP article. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• A,B,C or D all work for me. Or, (G) "Since he is a successful businessman, he has a net worth of several billion dollars and provides employment opportunities for over 20,000 people"--MONGO (talk) 13:00, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

  "Successful businessman" with no less than four bankruptcies and history of not paying his employees, taking away their health insurance, and telling porky pies about his net worth (which he conceals by being the first president in decades to conceal his tax returns from the American people). C'mon, Mongo. "G" is never gonna happen LOL. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

  22,450 employees work for the Trump Organization as of 9/2015. Do you deny he is worth billions as well made through business transactions and by promoting his business and of course himself.--MONGO (talk) 15:48, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually six bankruptcies so far. He also did not pay some companies he hired as the general contractor for a project, driving some of them into bankruptcy. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• In order of preference, A, B, C. I oppose D, E, F.- MrX 🖋 13:52, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• I prefer A. B is boring. C could use an additional modifier; “His net worth is estimated at roughly $3 billion.” Estimated and roughly may sound redundant. But, it is a very rough estimate as no one knows his liabilities; which is why I like A. O3000 (talk) 14:21, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support A or B. More detail is unnecessary. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support D, second choice B unless there are other sources for the $3 billion figure, we should attribute it. "He is a billionaire" feels a bit colloquial, but is otherwise fine. I oppose F and G, and am neutral on A, C, and E. power~enwiki (π, ν) 15:56, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: Bloomberg Billionaires Index and Wealth-X list it at $2.84B and ≥$3.8B . AFAIK these are the only other sources that have a fairly recent claim. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 23:04, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support D עם ישראל חי (talk) 16:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• D is OK for a brief mention. A B and C are no good because they state this dubious claim in WP's voice. SPECIFICO talk 16:18, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Favor D or E; C is also acceptable as second choice. Neutral about B. Oppose A (his wealth is an important enough aspect of his biography to need to be explicitly handled in the lede), F (POV), G (POV), and H (don't include the world ranking). --MelanieN alt (talk) 16:45, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• E preferably with a note that list the Forbes, Bloomberg, and Wealth-X estimates in it but not in the lead itself. Second choices C,D,F,G. Oppose A and H. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - I note that all of the options (except status quo H) change US$ to $. I think this is a good idea per MOS:CURRENCY, as $ is not ambiguous in this article. For conflict avoidance going forward, this change should be mentioned here so it is not seen as an oversight but rather as an explicit part of any consensus. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:35, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
• E preferably with a note that list the Forbes, Bloomberg, and Wealth-X estimates in it but not in the lead itself. Second choices C,D,F. Oppose A, G, and H. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 15:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
• A - I hadn't noticed that the third paragraph of the lead already mentions that he is the wealthiest person ever to assume office. D. Adding Bloomberg (i.e., Forbes and Bloomberg estimate his net worth at roughly $3 billion) to the lead would also be OK if the Bloomberg source is added to the Wealth section (currently we don't have it and it may be paywalled). Either way, it's Trump hasn't released any tax returns since he lost the casinos; Forbes or anyone else's estimate based on largely unverifiable information doesn't belong in the lead. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 03:49, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Further reductions in "Political career"

All of these may be somewhat controversial:

• A: Should the "Financial disclosures" section be merged into "Wealth"? Some discussion of tax returns would also need to be merged to "2016 Republican presidential primaries".
• B: Is "Political positions" necessary, now that most of these are discussed at greater length under various subsections of "Presidency"? A few of these should stay at "2016 general election campaign"; "build the wall" in particular needs to be mentioned somewhere in this section.
• C: Should "Campaign rhetoric" be merged with various sections in "Public profile", including those on "False statements"? I think there's a sense that Trump's rhetoric wasn't unique to the campaign; he had talked the same way before running, and he continues to talk the same way as President.
• D: Should the "Protests" section be removed completely? The link to Protests against Donald Trump should stay somewhere, the rest feels very unnecessary here.

I also have thoughts about the "White supremacist support" section that will take longer to write up (and I will do so in a separate discussion); the "Sexual misconduct allegations" may get moved around but I don't plan to suggest significant changes to it. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Racially charged

In light of continuing reports of Trump's racial views, specifically about Europe "losing its culture" because of immigration, I would like to focus the discussion about Trump's racial stance based on the feedback in the broader discussion a few sections up.

I'm seeking input on how to phrase the following sentence for an upcoming RfC. If you simply oppose mentioning Trump's racial attitudes in the lead, please save it for the RfC. If you have ideas about the proposed wording, please share them.

The idea would be to replace this:

; many of his public statements were controversial or false.

with a sentence something like this:

Many of his public statements have been false or controversial, and many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially-charged.

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful collaboration. - MrX 🖋

I wonder how productive it will be to combine two highly controversial changes into one: Taking "controversial or false" out of the campaign context, and the racial aspect. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:55, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

So do you think two sentences would be better? It could be a two part RfC, with one part addressing a change from "; many of his public statements were controversial or false." to "Many of his public statements have been controversial or false.", and the other part addressing "Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially-charged.". What do you think?- MrX 🖋 14:13, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Might as well be two separate RfCs; the issues are completely different, and RfC count reduction is not a goal. Once you have consensus for both parts, joining them into one sentence should be an uncontroversial matter of flow (that would probably need a quick survey, but it should be an easy pass). ―Mandruss ☎ 14:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

That's a valid point. What are your thoughts on this wording:

Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially-charged.

This is built off a suggestion from Snow Rise. - MrX 🖋 14:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I dunno. I'm still in learn mode on most such things, but seems a bit weaselly. Perceived Trump opponents? It seems like an empty statement. I think "by the media" would be an improvement. I think "by some of the media" would be a step too far, provided we're confident that it reflects a majority media view. If an RfC presented two options I think chances of a consensus for one of them would be fair to good. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Perceived by "many", unless you know of a succinct way of saying 160 million plus US citizens, legislators, world leaders, historians, journalists, scholars, federal prosecutors, and so on. It's far beyond just the media or opponents.- MrX 🖋 15:19, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

If you can support all that with solid non-opinion RS, then "widely perceived". Otherwise it's personal perception of perceptions, highly subject to natural human bias. I'd expect to see those RS links in an RfC, and I'd Oppose if they were absent or insufficient. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:31, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

There's no need for weaselly "perceived as". Who disputes that many of his statements are racially charged? RS widely confirm this. It's not a matter of which "side" or ideology is reporting. SPECIFICO talk 16:21, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Let's see what others think about it.- MrX 🖋 16:32, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

However I think others have made a valid point that controversial is not the same as false and that each of those categories relate to several different kinds of statements -- not just racially charged, but also misrepresenting policies and actions of himself and his administration, and lying about various readily-verifiable facts. SPECIFICO talk 16:43, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• I do think this is a suggestion worth considering; I'm not committing to any particular action just yet. I do suggest that "many of his comments and actions" in the "racially charged" sentence be changed to "some of his comments and actions". The racial hints and dog-whistles have been nowhere near as frequent, obvious, and well documented as the falsehoods, which are a daily occurrence. --MelanieN alt (talk) 16:57, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• Best way forward is to make sure who feels his comments are racial and then qualify it rather than just leave a blanket statement. "According to A,B,C,D, Trumps comments have been seen as racist, however according to E,F,G and H, they have been perceived as lacking racist overtones."--MONGO (talk) 17:22, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

  That kind of detail belongs in the text. We are talking about whether to include an unsourced summary sentence in the lede - which we can do if the material is significantly covered in the text. --MelanieN alt (talk) 17:40, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

  "According to nobody, no statement of Trump's had racial overtones" -- SPECIFICO talk 17:26, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that would practical for the lead and it would run afoul of WP:FALSEBALANCE. We could, however, write "Many of his statements and actions have been racially-charged, but some people dispute that." - MrX 🖋 17:39, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

That's more like it. Yes.--MONGO (talk) 17:44, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

On second thought, I don't like this at all so will wait for the Rfc!!--MONGO (talk) 18:30, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I think MrX's original proposal is fine as is. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• Still rather undue for the lead. I am not seeing anything strong enough to change the previous consensus. PackMecEng (talk) 18:56, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

  If you simply oppose mentioning Trump's racial attitudes in the lead, please save it for the RfC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrX (talk • contribs)

No I saw that, it is just worth mentioning. Also sign your darn posts, you are not new here. PackMecEng (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

It was worth mentioning that you can't respect a simple request not to disrupt a discussion? Great!- MrX 🖋 19:35, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

No just how bad an idea this is less than 6 months after the last failed RFC for this. Do you understand now? Great! PackMecEng (talk) 19:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

No, I honestly don't. There was never an RfC for "this".- MrX 🖋 20:03, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

You do not believe this falls under consensus item 24? Why would that be? PackMecEng (talk) 20:13, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

• We're not here to vote on whether to accurately convey the RS descriptions of DT. This isn't complicated. It's like Maurice Chevalier in the talkies with a French accent, only it's "racially-charged". BTW that's euphemistic enough, since RS call it racist, so what is the problem? SPECIFICO talk 20:25, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Except most WP:reliable sources do not explicitly call him a racist. I appreciate your desire to call what you perceive as a spade for a spade, but at the same time, you have to be realistic about what is going to pass through Misplaced Pages's editorial neutrality filter and what just isn't no matter how much you advocate for it. Mind you, I think there's WP:WEIGHT for some mention of the racial element in the lead (I would not have endorsed the proposal to the extent I did above, if not for that) but I think you do more damage than good to Mr. X's proposal when you make comments like the above that seem flippant in light of the serious WP:NPOV concerns here and which, even beyond that, show a certain degree of impatient indifference with the more conservative views of other editors here. You need to win these people over, not belittle their concerns, which are a lot more legitimate than the short-shrift you are giving them above.

And look, I am by no means a WP:BLP stalwart; I often feel (and voice the opinion) that the BLP precautionary principle is over-exercised to reductio ad absurdium extremes. But this is not one of those cases. We're talking about the president of the United States and the world's most controversial human being rolled into one. And while it's appropriate to predicate that analysis in the sources, the number of sources here is massive, so cherry picking is a real concern--because whether you think he is the second coming or the anti-christ (and I'm quite sure there are tens of millions of people who think he is literally either of those things, let alone figuratively) you can find a decent number of sources which align with an extreme view of any action he takes. We must therefore take great care and exercise a high degree of editorial caution in things we say about this controversial man which are themselves controversial.

Do I think it's properly WP:DUE to state that many people regard various of his statements as racist? Yes, that would be my favoured approach. Do I think that we'll probably have to settle, at least as far as the lead is concerned, for saying some of his statements are received as "racially-charged"? Yeah, probably, but it's better than the big ol' nothing we got adressing this aspect of his notability right now. Do I think we're going to end up saying anything remotely like "A lot of people hold that Trump is a racist"? Not a chance. So let's keep the effort focused on options that exist within a middle ground that consensus may be able to access, and maybe shelve the "Are you kidding me, why is this so difficult?" type comments while we're still trying to get people on board for the idea that any statement in this area should exist in the lead? Snow 15:09, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: Could you try to respond to me again, more succinctly, without putting words in my mount -- "racist" -- when, as a matter of fact, I've repeatedly opposed using all kinds of labels to tag BLP subjects on various articles. Your good intentions and thoughtfulness are matched only by your disregard for my actual positions. Thanks. And PS the Chevalier thing is exactly brilliantly and incisively on point, and it further supports the RS narrative that this is Trump's style and manner of speech and that we needn't get into OR about where it comes from or even exactly how deeply considered or widely held it may be. His comments sound and feel racially-charged, which is the proposed article text, and this is not in dispute in RS accounts of his speech. SPECIFICO talk 17:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough: you haven't explicitly advocated for adding racist to the lead. To the extent that I mischaracterized your position, I am sorry. But at the same time, I hope you consider the major thrust of my comments, because I don't think it's particularly unreasonable that not everyone is on board for the racially charged language we want to add. Given the importance of the topic (this being the second most trafficked article on the encyclopedia), the test that Trump's controversial and divisive nature puts on any editor trying to parse neutrality issues, and the sheer amount of sourcing that has to be grappled with, I think it's understandable that reasonably intelligent editors might disagree on how to proceed and/or be inclined to move slow--sometimes even painfully slow.

Like you, I have a hard time understanding the perspective that responses to Trump's vocalness on racial issues are undue for the lead. But I suspect that to the extent that "obvious" changes for the better are slow be effectuated here, it has less to do with a pro-Trump bias and more to do with editors who are used to sublimating their own perspectives to an objective, source-based, and WP:NPOV approach; as far as most experienced Wikipedians are concerned, "emotion is the mind killer" and because it's pretty difficult to stay indifferent to Trump (whatever else you say about him, that's gotta be true) I think most editors working on this page probably find themselves triple and quadruple checking themselves (and everyone else) before supporting anything, just because the man looms large in the mind as a topic that engenders a certain amount of emotional response--which causes most Wikivets to adopt a reflexive extra high level of caution. That's my theory anyway. And if it's true, it's a good instinct that we shouldn't even want to push back against too much. Anyway, I will continue to support adding some discussion of the race issue in the lead, but I think it's going to take some time and we have to approach it (and some other issues here) with a long-haul mentality. Snow 18:38, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

First, thanks.

I think compromise is a bad model for resolving the kind of dispute that's mounted in response to simple description or conveyance of mainstream narratives with respect to Trump and some of his policies and related subjects. The reason is that a compromise rubric can easily be subverted by one party or the other staking out an unreasonable starting position. We have many good editors on the American Politics articles, but we also have others who are partisan, ignorant, willful or unable to interact respectfully with others. Any of those factors will result in a compromise that subverts WP policy. We have editors whose user space features pinups of Trump, sarcastic references to various policy issues -- "hello taxpayers! I am editor Z" and rants on all sorts of political talking points. As we know, editors who are trying to reflect the mainstream do not generally resort to this kind of stuff and don't come to edit with ideology in mind. Editors who are trying to insinuate minority or partisan views find it necessary to disrupt this shared work environment with bad behavior, denial of policy, or defective sourcing, because all those standards clearly invalidate the content they favor. It's pretty easy to spot such editors. They deflect and dissemble, they feign outrage at simple editing q+a, and they personalize discussions with disparagment and accusation. "Compromise" may end the pain temporarily, but in the long run it weakends the encyclopedia and ensures that this disruptive behavior, once rewarded, will continue.

The suggestion that Trump does not evoke racially-charged themes, emotions, statements, reactions -- all reported by the vast bulk of RS worldwide -- is unsupportable and we should not tolerate it. There's plenty of room for discussion as to placement, weight, detail, etc. but denial is disruption. It's the sort of thing we as a community do not tolerate. SPECIFICO talk 23:09, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

WP:POVFIGHTER is my concise response to that, emphasis on its last sentence. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:33, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

I have to tell you, that doesn't sound like very tenable long-term editorial philosophy to me. Whenever an editor wants to change content in a contentious area, they pretty have to do a two stage analysis; they must address (in this exact order) the following questions: 1) What is the most accurate way to represent this topic in fidelity with the sources? 2) Can I achieve a stable consensus that this is indeed the optimal approach to the content? With an important corollary to 2: If I can't get my ideal version adopted, what is the closest thing I can move the consensus towards without becoming unduly disruptive over the matter? Anyway, in this instance, we're not even talking about compromise so much as patience. So anyhow, I'll leave it at that: I've voiced the point I was seeking to. Snow 09:16, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

In case nobody noticed, I compiled a list of how sources describe Trump's racial attitudes. This one from The New York Times does a pretty good job of summing it up:

"Mr. Trump’s history of racially inflammatory episodes traces back to his first days in the public eye. "
— The New York Times

Perhaps this could be a starting point for crafting some wording.- MrX 🖋 11:41, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

This proposal is ill-formed. As I noted minutes ago up thread (although I'm told my comments were misplaced), one ought to be extremely careful when debating a fragment of a sentence. It conceptually can be done, if the portion of the senates omitted would not bear on the issue but the discussion is doomed from the start if the omitted portion of the sentence is relevant to the issue. Oddly, the section where I was told I was out of line does contain the entire sentence, but the section where I apparently was supposed to contribute refers only to the fragment. The section continues that improper construction.

To be specific, you should not be discussing a sentence fragment such as ; many of his public statements were controversial or false. without noting the antecedent. This discussion is arguably worse. Not only does it omit the antecedent but it is suggesting replacing a sentence fragment with a full statement. Possibly that's warranted but one has to discuss what happens to the beginning of the sentence. Is it retained as a full sentence standing on its own? Or removed? Or something else?

Please start over and do it right. --S Philbrick(Talk) 16:41, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I think you failed to observe that this discussion has evolved into how me might word a sentence (or more) that summarizes Trump's lifetime racial attitudes. That. Nothing else. In fact, the original discussion was clearly to remove the dated sentence fragment ("The idea would be to replace this:" and replace it with an entire sentence, which means we were never "discussing a sentence fragment".

The discussion has moved way past sentence fragments and controversies, and process, and editor behavior analysis. I don't know why something so basic and fundamental to how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work is so elusive. In any case, from now on I will simply start an RfC with specific proposed wording, and if that doesn't reach consensus, I will propose another with different wording. I'm convinced that we will eventually be able to bring the lead up to date, provided that editors can focus on the task at hand.- MrX 🖋 17:04, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know why something so basic and fundamental to how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work is so elusive. I concur. I thought proposals for edits were fairly basic. Fairly sure I've seen advice somewhere suggesting that a well-formed edit request is in the form of please change "A" to "B" where "A" represents the existing wording and "B" represents the desired wording. Misplaced Pages:Edit_requests Seems relevant but isn't as clear as I would like. Perhaps we need to add advice that says that "A" should generally be an entire sentence. If it represents a fragment, the editor proposing the change should read very carefully to make sure that the remainder of the sentence would not change the views of any of the voters. It would not have occurred to me that if the proposal is to change a portion of the sentence to a full sentence that one ought to also I discuss what happens to the rest of the sentence but maybe that's needed as well. Yes, I'm a bit off topic, but I've looked at three different request for edits in the last few minutes, two of which were poorly formed and the only one which was well-formed I was told I was improperly contributing to. This is basic stuff. Why is it so hard?--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:33, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Specifically, if a consensus is reach that the fragment following His campaign received extensive free media coverage; should be converted to some standalone sentence, what happens to the beginning of the sentence? Does the semicolon get changed to a period and it become a full sentence? Does it go away? I don't see any discussion.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Welcome to the Donald Trump talk page where even the simplest discussion quickly goes off the rails. To recap: This is not an edit request. It is not a proposal. It's not a process discussion. It is not a place to proclaim ones opposition to change. It is not a place to police other editors. It is "seeking input on how to phrase the following sentence for an upcoming RfC". A couple of editors actually contributed that that objective.- MrX 🖋 17:44, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Fair point, I did miss that you are trying to workout wording for an RFC as opposed to an edit request. However, my impression is that an RFC, even more than a simple edit request, has to be well-formed. So my advice, that talking about converting a portion of the sentence to a full sentence without mentioning what would happen to the beginning of the sentence is problematic, and ought to be addressed.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:51, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you drop the word "perceived" and if you do use it, drop the passive voice. First enough sources state this, that you should just state the statements are racially charged. If you are going to use the word perceived, tell the reader who perceives it.Casprings (talk) 18:03, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Should the lead include a sentence about Trump's racial stance?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Politics, government, and law History and geography Biographies When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should the second paragraph of the lead include a sentence summarizing Trump's history of racially charged comments and racially motivated actions?

Specifically, something like:

Many of his comments and actions have been perceived by some as racially charged.

Please indicate whether you support or oppose this wording (or very similar) being added to the lead. If you wish to propose different wording, please start a separate RfC. Thank you.- MrX 🖋 18:00, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Conditional support if this RFC fails. Statement should be

  Many of his comments and actions have been racially charged.

  Enough sources state this, that Misplaced Pages should just state this.Casprings (talk) 18:05, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

  @Casprings: Do you want to start a parallel RfC to see if there is support for that?- MrX 🖋 18:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• Done.Casprings (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support - It's hard for me to get fully behind this proposal without more specific wording, knowing how many different directions the basic proposed template could be built out in. What I will say with more certainty is that I think Mr. X has made their case, vis-a-vis sourcing, that something of this sort is WP:DUE for the lead. Snow 20:41, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, Mr. X, which four sources were you thinking for the cite here? Snow 20:49, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, probably the first four (The New York Times, Fortune, Rolling Stone, and PBS).- MrX 🖋 21:21, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• Copied from the second RfC below: Oppose the use of "racially charged" per WP:EUPHEMISM. It's just a watered-down euphemism for "racist". GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:45, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

A) Forgive the strong statement, but I think your categorical/per se description is nonsensical; this is clearly a matter of context and some sources will invariably be using the term as a hedging mechanisms while others may genuinely be suggesting that Trump is not a racist but has stirred the pot (intentional or not) on race--and all manner of variations in between. However, I doubt I can shift your perspective on it, with such a strong !vote. Anyway, more important is B) the "policy" you cite (WP:EUPHEMISM isn't even a content inclusion policy and is completely irrelevant here: it is a tiny little piece of MoS that is concerned with word choice, and thus has no weight when measured against an inclusion issue that needs be judged under WP:V and WP:NPOV.

Euphemisms in fact are fair game in any case where the same or similar language is being used by sources. It's not our place to decide what is coy language disguising a deeper criticism; we evaluate the sources on their face value without filtering them through our own meaning making and assumptions about what the sources "really meant"; that's WP:Original research. Frankly, a lot of sources do say "racist" explicitly, but that is clearly a non-starter for this particular article. So I think its ridiculous to say that this topic shouldn't be mentioned at all just because the proposed language leans more on sources that are a bit more tactful and reserved. Those are the one that are more appropriate here, given the BLP concerns. Snow 04:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support - This sentence is backed by numerous sources. It is accurate, since it addresses widespread perceptions rather than objective facts. I don't accept that "racially charged" is necessarily a euphemism for racism, but perhaps some use it that way.- MrX 🖋 02:27, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Mentioned below, perhaps there is a better way to frame this. Racist, racially charged, both the same really and the media seems to always play connect the dots when they report these comments and twitter feeds. While it seems forbidden to mention other wording here (oddly) it would be best in keeping with BLP that we stay above the medias efforts to sensationalize and sell copy. Without violating OR it would be best we instead agree with a less condemning approach.--MONGO (talk) 05:25, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it is is possible to decide on our own subjective interpretaition which is a less more or condemning approach without violating WP:OR by outright definition. Sources are completely allowed to "connect the dots" for themselves and arrive at conclusions. That's what we rely on them for in most instances, and as Misplaced Pages editors, we don't get to interject our subjective assessments of how well they accomplished that task. Reporting their conclusions is not only not against WP:NPOV, it is a defining requirement of that policy, if there is sufficient WP:WEIGHT to justify the inclusion. Deciding for ourselves that "the media" has "sensaionalized" something is an act of pure editorializing and original research, and not something we are permitted to do in our analysis of whether or not to include content. We faithfully represent the sources, we don't decide for ourselves which ones missed the plot. That's WP:POV by the back door. See for example Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources and WP:NPOVS. Snow 07:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• STRONG OPPOSE - Don’t be silly. Clearly contrary to WP:LEAD guidances for the opening paragraph, does not pass general guidance of WP:BLP to write conservatively, let alone the specific BLPLEAD or WP:RACIST guidances. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:26, suggest 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: its not strong enough

Perceived? Are you effing kidding me the guy is a RACIST plain and simple. I would suggest. Many of his comments and actions have been racially motivated.

RfC: Should the summary of Trump's false and controversial statements be updated in the lead?

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Should the second paragraph of the lead be updated as follows?

From

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. His campaign received extensive free media coverage; many of his public statements were controversial or false. Trump was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election while losing the popular vote. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests.

To

Trump received extensive free media coverage during his 2016 presidential campaign, defeating sixteen Republican opponents in the primaries. He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election while losing the popular vote. Many of his public remarks have been controversial or false. Commentators have described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests.

This streamlines some wording, updates the ongoing nature of the false and controversial remarks, and keeps the material in chronological order.

(Note: The above proposal does not preclude the additional wording proposed in the above RfC.)

Please indicate whether you support or oppose the proposed change to the wording (or very similar). If you wish to propose different wording, please start a separate RfC. Thank you. - MrX 🖋 18:26, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Here's a diff view of the proposed changes. ~Awilley (talk) 20:06, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support Better wording and a little shorter.Casprings (talk) 22:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support for the reasons given by MrX and Casprings. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support per my rationale stated in the RfC.- MrX 🖋 02:29, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• OPPOSE - wrong sequence. The second line on commentators is part of the primaries and part of the sequence about his getting higher coverage in the primaries. So moving it to after that makes a hash of the primary section, and creates a confusing ambiguity or false image of when it is associated to either the election or the protests. If a line was associated to either of those it would be in addition to the line 2 bit during the primaries. Frankly, I’m not well disposed to random edits in lead without better explanation than “A or B” just thrown out. Cheers. Markbassett (talk) 06:40, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

  When you say "line" I assume you mean sentence, right? That sentence is a general statement that applies from mid-2015 forward. It would be confusing and misleading to leave it between his primary victory and election, as if the policies only applied to his candidacy.- MrX 🖋 12:59, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support - given reports of how many lies that Trump tells in a day is reported on the front page of major papers, it's a very significant. But being a lead, it should be in simpler terms. Use a simple term like "lie" instead of "false statements". Nfitz (talk) 07:25, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - It just doesn't read right to me. It puts "free media coverage" up front as if it was the most important thing, and the structure just seems a little awkward. I'm going to write an alternative version presently. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:26, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Alternative language

Here's my effort. It slightly reworks the first couple of MrX's sentences:

Entering the 2016 presidential election as a Republican with a campaign that received extensive free media coverage, Trump defeated sixteen Republican opponents in the primaries. He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election while losing the popular vote. Many of his public remarks have been controversial or false. Commentators have described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests.

-- Scjessey (talk) 12:30, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support as a second choice, if my proposal does not gain consensus. It's an improvement over what we currently have, but I believe my version is more narrative. I'm especially not fond of starting a paragraph in passive voice.- MrX 🖋 12:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

RfC #2: Should the lead include a sentence about Trump's racial stance?

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Per this RFC above, should the wording of the sentence about Trump's racially charged comments not use the term "perceived" and simply state that the statements were racially charged? Specifically, something like:

Many of his comments and actions were racially charged.

Casprings (talk) 22:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. WP:RS support that the statements were racially charged. We should not weaken that by using the term "perceived". We should reflect what the sources say when it is supported as strongly as it is here.Casprings (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
• Not the right words "Racially charged" is nebulous and unclear. It's almost the type of euphemism Trump would use himself. Trump says what he thinks his supporters want to hear. Plenty of racists support Trump, so who says things that will encourage them. He is also not too interested in being politically correct. Not sure how that can be written in a couple of words other than speaking of populism and pandering to the masses. HiLo48 (talk) 23:42, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose the use of "racially charged" per WP:EUPHEMISM. It's just a watered-down euphemism for "racist". GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:44, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose What a difficult situation this is. Not sure how to frame it but the wording suggested here is not satisfactory. Sadly, as I have mentioned before, we are limited by a polarizing media that oftentimes fails us in our efforts to remain dispassionate and objective. We do not have to follow their oftentimes very unobjective cues.--MONGO (talk) 00:03, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• Which sources describe it differently? Why not post them. Then we can compare sources. Personally, I think the language above is neutral.Casprings (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• You may see it as neutral. I'm not so sure, because I'm not sure what it means. Can you provide a well sourced, non-ambiguous, unarguable definition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs)

• Oppose per MONGO. Couldn't have expressed it better myself. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support as a second choice. This wording is supported by many sources, but I am somewhat less comfortable without the word "perceived" being included.- MrX 🖋 02:36, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose just plain awkwardly. As an idiomatic matter, the phrase "racially charged" is usually used in circumstances that suggest a multiplicity of views on the behaviour or comments being described by the phrase. So combining this word sense with an objective statement just creates a situation of confused semantics, in my opinion. It becomes are once a peculiarly worded matter and also suggests a kind of concrete implication of racial bias that the original version proposed above does not. I think this may have been what MONGO was talking about when they said it was difficult to frame, and it took me a moment to work it out too. Despite how subtle the change is from the above proposal, this variation just feels inappropriate and inaccurate. Snow 04:46, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

STRONG OPPOSE - don’t be silly. The whole idea is failing LEAD and RACIST, and was apparently submitted without any specifics so now is just fishing ??? Think a thread about restricting LEAD edits is needed here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:48, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 July 2018

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Yaa240 (talk) 05:50, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

dt is born december 2 1645

 Not done: He's Methuselah? EvergreenFir (talk) 05:57, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Now, don't exaggerate. He's almost Andreas Werckmeister. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Should LEAD edit restrictions be made ?

Seems like lately there is a number of wants to edit the lead, either jump to edit in lead from that morning’s TV (with nothing in article), or re-litigating old ground.

Should there be some restriction or minimum hurdle be added for lead edits? Generally should we put in

• A) No additional guidance; or
• B) A 30-day moratorium on any lead edit; or
• C) No lead change without some New external event causing it; or
• D) No lead change without substantial New article content causing it

Thoughts ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:05, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

• WP:SNOW Oppose That's just not how this works. We have general community policies which govern when and how often an issue can be raised for a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS discussion and when and where it is WP:DISRUPTIVE to keep raising an issue. If anyone has a particular editor whom they feel is WP:POVPUSHING or refusing the WP:DROPTHESTICK, they can pursue the normal community remedies or seek application of the WP:Discretionary sanctions that are in place here. But creating a moratorium on the lead for the encyclopedia's second most trafficked article is both infeasible and counter-intuitive--not to mention an arbitrary "solution" to the supposed issues. Don't get me wrong, even just stopping in for short bursts whenever an RfC summons me, I have seen a lot of the refusal to let things go which I can see has inspired this proposal (I've seen a great deal of civil and not so civil POV pushing whenever a bot does bring me here). But the proposed cure is worse than the disease and just not workable. Snow 07:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - With the exception of typos/spelling/vandalism and similar, I think the lede of this article is contentious enough that it would be reasonable to expect even small changes to require consensus on the talk page first. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

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