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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Musical Theatre West Side Story is part of WikiProject Musical Theatre, organized to improve and complete musical theatre articles and coverage on Misplaced Pages. You can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Musical TheatreWikipedia:WikiProject Musical TheatreTemplate:WikiProject Musical TheatreMusical Theatre Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Shakespeare Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Shakespeare, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of William Shakespeare on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ShakespeareWikipedia:WikiProject ShakespeareTemplate:WikiProject ShakespeareShakespeare Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Dance: Ballet This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dance, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Dance and Dance-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DanceWikipedia:WikiProject DanceTemplate:WikiProject DanceDance This article is supported by WikiProject Ballet. WikiProject Ballet To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : See the Image requests page. Articles: Choo Chiat Goh, Vladimir Bourmeister, Columbia City Ballet, Michael Cook (ballet), Peter Schaufuss, Cyril Atanassoff, Post-structuralist ballet Cleanup : Ballet Fantastique, NYCB/cast lists, re-write the whole Russian ballet article Copyedit : Rasta Thomas, Ballet (marked as in need of immediate attention) Disambiguation : Moscow Ballet Expand : French ballet, Balanchine method, Cecchetti method, Original Ballet Russe, Royal Swedish Ballet, Bloch (dancewear), Turnout (ballet), Opera ballet, English ballet, Italian ballet NPOV : Capezio Stubs : Pas de deux, ballet tutu, Nicolai Legat, John Neumeier, Miami City Ballet, more Unreferenced : Miami City Ballet, Oklahoma City Ballet Wikify : Moscow Ballet (United States), Oklahoma City Ballet (in need of sections and references) Other : Review recent changes to ballet articles. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. New York City Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Romance Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Romance, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to fictional romance in literature and romantic fiction writers. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.RomanceWikipedia:WikiProject RomanceTemplate:WikiProject Romanceromance Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

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Removal of relevant photo

It's a bit hard to understand the removal if this photo, even with my admitted COI and even with the helpful project the user has embarked upon to clean up what he feels are my COI additions. The photo illustrates the text and is very rare (and free) as it shows the only two performers ever in that show to attract considerable notice internationally. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:05, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the image. It is not even from a production of West Side Story; it is from a single production of a parody adaptation of the show that is mentioned in the article only because it was long-running in other places. The image can go on the actors' own pages. Taking a look at what you did, now, I can't even see a ref that states that they even appeared in the adaptation, so you should add a specific ref to the actors' pages concerning their roles in the production. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! The reference to this show has been in other online bios about them since they were discovered years ago, info which I have not been able to see, in every case, as derivative of WP's info. Since I have met both of these people, albeit years ago, would you kindly consider adding this under Mohombi's and this under Mattsson's article? When I met them they were both proud to have had worked for Lars Jacob (who took the photo) in two of his cabarets, but it's recently been determined once and for all that I know him too well to edit articles like these 2 anymore. I believe you and I have cooperated in cleaning a few things up before, that's why I'm applying a bit of the spirit of WP:BOLD to this request of mine. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:47, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Who says you can't edit these two actors' articles, if your only connection is that you met them and know someone who directed them? I'm happy to help out, but I'm not going to read through these refs to see what parts of them would be useful in the actors' bios. I suppose that if you send me the proposed changes and refs, I can review them and add them for you. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Although the edit by User:Domdeparis had a smell of WP:POINT about it, I agree that the picture was inappropriate for this article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:47, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Productions section

West Side Story is an extremely popular musical, which is produced many times every year in productions around the world. In the article, in accordance with WP:MUSICALS article structure guidelines and WP:BALASP, we report only the most noteworthy professional productions. These include those that are long-running, in major venues or national tours, with notable directors and notable cast members. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll second Ssilvers, and add that as a general rule of thumb for such sections it is a good idea to demonstrate "noteworthyness" (i.e. due weight) with citations. That is, citations for such additions should not simply verify their assertions, but also demonstrate that the production in question rises to a certain level of notability. As an example, if the production is included in a survey of productions (anything from a popular press "10 best productions of…" to a scholarly monograph or critical edition of the musical). Personally I recommend tagging all additions lacking such a citation with {{cn|reason=Does not demonstrate notability for inclusion.}} and ruthlessly removing them if no such citation is forthcoming (even if there are cites that merely verify the information). --Xover (talk) 07:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Systemic bias re: musical theater; what happened to WP:GLOBAL?

I am surprised to be reversed when I tried to specify that the only productions listed in the info box are American & British. Even more surprised to read an edit summary like "these are the only major markets for musical theatre. This is consistent throughout the entire musical theatre project on Misplaced Pages". I am referred to a musical theatre group which I do not know. Please provide me with a link to any discussion where consensus on English Misplaced Pages has decided that the United States and Britain "are the only major markets for musical theatre." Unless I see specific evidence that supports a WP consensus like that, I will make the change again. Frankly, I'm rather shocked. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:57, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Musical theatre, except for Victorian burlesque and Edwardian musical comedy is an American genre. It developed from previous European genres including operetta, burlesque, and others. Modern musicals performed beyond English-speaking countries are emulating the American product, and the two major markets for musicals are America and England. The Infoboxes for musicals do not attempt to list all productions of a show (thank heavens). There have been tens or hundreds of thousands of productions of West Side Story, and so we only list the Broadway, West End and US/Brit national tours (together with the original regional or off-Broadway productions) of musicals in Infoboxes, since these are by far the most important productions. Yes, this is specified here: Introduction and Infobox in the Article Structure page at WP:MUSICALS. This is not new and has been done consistently on Misplaced Pages for more than 10 years. This is not systemic bias, it is reality. And just because a genre was developed in a particular country does not mean that the article about it violates WP:GLOBAL. However, this is the wrong place to discuss all this. As I suggested before, if you want to have a useful discussion about it, let's go to the WP:MUSICALS talk page, and you can engage with other Wikipedians who care about musical theatre. I can tell you that I have contributed substantially to nearly all the FAs in the musical theatre area and many of the GAs, and I have focused on musical theatre here on WP since 2006. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

This is the right place to discuss whether or not my specification that the productions listed are American and British should have been removed, as if there have not been many major productions of West Side Story in other countries. That's all we are discussing, as far as I'm concerned, not any "attempt to list all productions of a show". --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, on that point, the productions listed in the infobox represent *all* the long-running major-market productions of the musical worldwide (per the WP:MUSICALS article structure guidelines on infoboxes), plus the original tryouts and the major film production. Personally, I would delete the film production because it is a production of an adaptation, rather than the musical (it has its own article and is also discussed and cross-referenced later in the article), but many members of the WP:MUSICALS project like to include the major film productions in the infoboxes, so I don't resist it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:28, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

"Worldwide"? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, worldwide, since Broadway, the West End, US national tours and Brit national tours are the only "major markets" for musical theatre, each with over $1billion in annual ticket sales. No other markets for musical theatre in the world (China, Japan, SKorea, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, Canada, etc.) come close. That is why the WP:MUSICALS project decided that those are the ones that should be included in infoboxes. Frankly, I would rather not include *any* productions in infoboxes, because they are a moving target that require constant updating and, IMO, they clutter up the top of articles. If someone really wants a good discussion of the major productions of a particular show, they really should read the Productions section, which can list the important productions (even if not in a "major market") with much more nuance and clarity. Note that this article has a section on International productions. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

In the links you've provided, I see nothing defining "major markets" as only American and British. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

The link that I provided states in the second paragraph: "The productions in the infobox should include the original production, the major productions in New York and/or London and U.S. or UK national tours. Other productions can be indicated by the catchall phrase "International productions" or "Major regional productions"." -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

And I still see nothing wrong with defining the list for clarity, as I attempted to do. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:02, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

It is redundant and not consistent with all the FA musicals in Misplaced Pages, where the IB has been vetted by numerous editors. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:43, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd be up for a broader revisiting and discussion about this 'major market' issue at WP:MUSICALS. I've never been fully convinced by the decision criteria applied. Boneymau (talk) 21:54, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Be my guest. I will argue there that the revivals should come out of the IB, and that only the first major premiere should be listed in the IB. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:06, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

In all my 12 years of Misplaced Pages work, logged in or not, frankly, the assertion that the U.S. & Britain are "the only major markets for musical theatre" is one of the most preoposterous I have ever seen. I am no less shocked now that I was the other day when I saw this preposterous assertion for the first time. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

3O Response: I am responding to a third opinion request about the productions in the infobox. I'm not sure that I see the WP:GLOBAL/systemic bias issue here. This is a New York play set in New York with most major productions staged in New York or touring from New York. I'm honestly not sure that any other country needs to be mentioned in the lead or infobox (though I have no issue with the West End productions) or that it needs to be specified that major productions are US & British. The article is quite large, and we should only cover major aspects of the subject in the lead (and infobox). The article has an International productions section. If any such productions there have sufficient weight in the article, that might justify their inclusion in the lead/infobox. But I don't see that being the case.

For comparison, I'm going to mention The Drowsy Chaperone, a Canadian musical. It started in Toronto as a very low-budget affair, practically a sketch show at fringe festivals. They gained investors and restaged on Broadway as a full musical, which did very well. So, as a Toronto play which met success on Broadway, it rightly includes all of that in the lead and infobox, even if the Toronto productions weren't big-budget. As a relatively new play, the other national and international productions carry more weight overall so also have some inclusion. I don't feel that it's a different treatment, just a different weight of notable material which precludes a lot of the international coverage in the lead/infobox for West Side Story. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: Since you appear to be interested in more eyes on the question, I'll chime in to say that while I know very little about musical theatre, I find Ssilvers position unobjectionable and their argument reasonable. I don't know musical theatre as a field so I cannot vouch for its factual basis, but I do care quite a bit about the global perspective (which we have major issues maintaining in general) and I have no complaints in that regard about this practice within the relevant WikiProject (I do however tend to agree with Ssilvers that the list would better be pruned to inaugural productions or some strict definition of what merits mention). So, fwiw, and to the degree it's helpful… --Xover (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Per Xover and Reidgreg's comment above, I don't see the bias here. - SchroCat (talk) 06:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

How much money have big French, German, Austrian, Dutch, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Finnish theatres made on popular & lucrative musicals per decade? How much money have music publishers made on translations? Just to mention European markets. Does anyone care, or it is just Britannia rules (as with Pantomime) + OK then, her former colony? I really don't want to call anyone ignorant (untravelled? passportless?), but I'm still absolutely flabbergasted. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:10, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Suggest you make these points over in the Talk page at WP:MUSICALS, SchroCat. I'm not sure that West Side Story is a particularly special case that justifies divergence from the standard, so if you think a shift in approach is merited then it needs the authority of consensus there. Boneymau (talk) 20:00, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Boneymau, I'm not sure you meant to ping me for my brief comment? - SchroCat (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

A lot less than Broadway and the West End, each of which are markets with well over $1 billion annually in ticket sales (and well over 10 million tickets sold per year). If you go to Paris or Berlin, they don't have anything like the same number of musicals playing simultaneously like in New York and London. Just a few theaters playing American or British musicals and occasionally an American-style musical written in the local language, such as Les Misérables (musical). In fact, Boublil and Schönberg are literally the only non-Brit European musical theatre-writing team to have produced a musical theatre blockbuster. Nearly all the great musical theatre writers since WWI have been American (except notably Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice). You can see much more opera and operetta in continental Europe than in the US, but they are not major markets for musicals on the scale of New York and London. When the WP:MUSICALS project began, these were the discussions we had, and you certainly have not presented any reason to change this conclusion regarding the thousands of WP articles on musicals. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:58, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

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