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::: You're missing the point. Someone says something on a far-right fringe website and the only source that reports it is a dodgy left-wing tabloid. Including that, is undue. Doesn't matter if it was the King of Siam who said it, the lack of commentary in substantive independent sources is what makes it undue. We're not supposed to scour the internet for primary sources supporting or debunking a specific POV, we are supposed to reflect the consensus view of reliable sources, which, in this case, is "meh". <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
::: You're missing the point. Someone says something on a far-right fringe website and the only source that reports it is a dodgy left-wing tabloid. Including that, is undue. Doesn't matter if it was the King of Siam who said it, the lack of commentary in substantive independent sources is what makes it undue. We're not supposed to scour the internet for primary sources supporting or debunking a specific POV, we are supposed to reflect the consensus view of reliable sources, which, in this case, is "meh". <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
::::Horowitz's views are mentioned several other times in the article. Why do you think this one time, when he is defending Coulter, is fringe and can't be included but the other times are OK for inclusion? I think your POV would be stronger if this was the only time Horowitz was in the article. ] (]) 04:33, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
::::Horowitz's views are mentioned several other times in the article. Why do you think this one time, when he is defending Coulter, is fringe and can't be included but the other times are OK for inclusion? I think your POV would be stronger if this was the only time Horowitz was in the article. ] (]) 04:33, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::I went ahead and removed a Horowitz quote which was sourced to Front Page Magazine. The other mentions of Horowitz come from sources that are at least marginally reliable.
:::::You're continuing to imply that Horowitz himself carries some sort of notability or weight that applies to everything he says. That is not how it works. We may choose to include comments which have been prominently covered by reliable secondary sources, while policy requires that we exclude comments which do not meet this standard. –] ] 05:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
::{{re|Springee}} You've asserted several times that the opinions of notable commentators inherently carry a certain amount of weight, including the extraordinary claim that {{tq|"WEIGHT allows inclusion of views/opinions of notable commentators/experts in cases like this."}} This is a misrepresentation of our policies, in fact WP:WEIGHT concerns the prominence of a viewpoint among reliable sources and says nothing about the opinions of notable individuals. –] ] 23:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
::{{re|Springee}} You've asserted several times that the opinions of notable commentators inherently carry a certain amount of weight, including the extraordinary claim that {{tq|"WEIGHT allows inclusion of views/opinions of notable commentators/experts in cases like this."}} This is a misrepresentation of our policies, in fact WP:WEIGHT concerns the prominence of a viewpoint among reliable sources and says nothing about the opinions of notable individuals. –] ] 23:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
::: Then why were you ok with the material until Guy came along. ] (]) 01:08, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
::: Then why were you ok with the material until Guy came along. ] (]) 01:08, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
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Improve the lead section to summarize the article better (see WP:LEAD).
Find sources other than Coulter: based on her record, she is clearly unreliable to use as a source - even on her own life. Osiriscorleone (talk) 02:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Add that she is a racist and she thinks that Blacks are not articulate. She also stated that she would not have voted for Vivek Ramaswamy if he were running for president because he is Indian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUa1KkxyOmA&t=4s (~7:03)
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ann Coulter article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This page reads "Coulter subscribes to intelligent design, a theory that rejects evolution."
Evolution and Intelligent Design are not mutually exclusive in everyone's mind. Belief in Creation doesn't necessitate the rejection of evolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.210.89 (talk) 12:30, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The question is whether she rejects evolution. This kind of thing implies she does, but I couldn't find a succinct quote. I would challenge that "intelligent design" qualifies as a theory, rather than as less than a hypothesis, more of a surmise. --Hugh7 (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Coulter, Ann H. (2018). Resistance Is Futile!: How the Trump-Hating Left Lost Its Collective Mind. New York City: Penguin Random House LLC. ISBN 9780525540076 (hardcover); ISBN 9780525540083 (ebook). It's listed on Amazon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.86.4 (talk) 02:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 September 2018
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I removed a quote sourced to WorldNetDaily because this is not a reliable source, even for opinions. In the same edit I removed a Dennis Prager quote sourced to Townhall because the opinion of a columnist is unlikely to be notable and may be considered a WP:FRINGE view. –dlthewave☎10:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
On the contrary, editors wishing to add or retain an opinion will need to show that it is has been published by reliable sources; otherwise it fails WP:WEIGHT. –dlthewave☎21:27, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
That's an illogical response. I pointed out that those who wish to remove opinions as "fringe" need to provide evidence that they are "fringe". If you respond to that by saying "editors wishing to add or retain an opinion will need to show that it is has been published by reliable sources", that's changing the subject. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:32, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
By "fringe", I meant that it is a minority viewpoint that has not been demonstrated to appear in reliable sources. WP:FRINGE, WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT all apply here. –dlthewave☎21:33, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
WP:FRINGE: "In Misplaced Pages parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." Not appearing in a reliable source isn't part of the definition. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:35, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
OK, but it's still "a minority viewpoint that has not been demonstrated to appear in reliable sources." We should not be giving Prager and Horowitz the same weight as prominent organizations such as the ADL and American Jewish Committee. –dlthewave☎21:42, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Comment, not idea if WND should be reliable but Prager would be a notable opinion on conservative/libertarian matters. Here is CNN including Prager on a panel discussing antisemitism ]. Certainly an opinion with a POV and not one that should be typically delivered in Misplaced Pages voice but still notable. Since this is appears to be a direct quote WND would only have to be evaluated with regards to truthfully quoting Prager. The RS concerns could be bypassed by finding an alternative or second source for the quotes in question. Springee (talk) 01:17, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
@Dlthewave:, this looks like a bad reversion to me ]. The material has been in the article for some time. @FreeKnowledgeCreator: has challenged the removal, I noted problems with the justification for removal and the talk page discussion has not reached a consensus. The WND sourced material might fail RS but the claims aren't extraordinary (thus a lower quality source may be OK). The opinions of David Horowitz and Dennis Prager are both notable in this area so it would be hard to argue they don't have WEIGHT for inclusion independent of sourcing. Springee (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
@Springee: We must have a different understanding of WP:WEIGHT; I don't see anything in the policy that gives weight to an individual's opinion due to their notability. The policy concerns the prominence of a viewpoint among reliable sources, and it does not appear that Horowitz's and Prager's opinions on Coulter's remarks have been published in reliable sources. –dlthewave☎13:57, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
WEIGHT allows inclusion of views/opinions of notable commentators/experts in cases like this. I would start by noting that the claims of antisemitism are being made by people who are no more notable, and perhaps less so, than those defending Coulter. For instance Horowitz is quoted several times in the article so I don't think we can claim his opinion suddenly doesn't have weight this time. WND cites Horowitz's blog as the source of the defense. Perhaps you should change the reference to his blog instead. Springee (talk) 14:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
First, if Horowitz is a notable opinion on the subject then it shouldn't matter where his defense is published. Second, it was incorrect to remove the Prager material in your reversion since it was not related to the WND issue. Third, I've added a HuffPo article that also talks about Horowitz defending Coulter. Thus at this point the HuffPo establishes the WEIGHT and the Horowitz article simply fills in the details. Springee (talk) 16:12, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
@Nomoskedasticity:, there is not consensus for removing the material. The material is party of the long term stable version of the article. The Horowitz material is now supported with two sources (Horowitz's own writing and the HuffPost) so removal of that content was sloppy and unjustified. The Prager material removal is also questionable given there is no doubt he said it. Please justify the removals individually here. Remember you are removing long term stable content so the onus is on you to get consensus for the change. Springee (talk) 11:07, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Prager's column is also a primary-source opinion with no reliable secondary coverage. Editors who wish to add or reinstate the content will need to demonstrate that it is a significant viewpoint, do you have other sources that support this? We need to be particularly careful when sourcing opinions in a BLP, whether positive or negative. –dlthewave☎12:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I agree it would be better to get a second source to confirm weight. However there isn't consensus for removal and we are dealing with removing stable content. The Horowitz material did have a secondary source and thus was removed improperly. Springee (talk) 12:22, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
This article is not under a restriction that requires consensus to remove content. What was the secondary source for Horowitz? The HuffPost ref was missing the URL. –dlthewave☎12:28, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
@JzG:, the Horowitz material was discussed here. While WND is not considered a reliable site for facts etc it is considered reliable for the views/opinions expressed by the authors. There is a very good reason for keeping the actual Horowitz material. The HuffPo article (the second reference) says Horowitz defended Coulter and cites the article WND article. However, since the HuffPo author disagrees with Horowitz it's better to include both so readers can see both what Horowitz wrote and what was said about it. Finally, RS doesn't say this material can't be included, only that we need to use it carefully. Anyway, the material was included after the discussion above. Springee (talk) 20:39, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
We have a (just about) reliable source for this material. Linking the original is unnecessary and a violation of WP:FRINGE, since WND is a fringe publication. It's a redundant unreliable source, and adds nothing. In fact I would remove the entire sentence as WP:UNDUE unless it's mentioned in something more weighty than HuffPo. Guy (Help!) 20:48, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
It isn't fringe since Horowitz is a well know commentator. Unless you are claiming the article isn't actually by Horowitz or the material was altered. Also, we already have a consensus for inclusion based on the discussion above. Springee (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
You're missing the point. Someone says something on a far-right fringe website and the only source that reports it is a dodgy left-wing tabloid. Including that, is undue. Doesn't matter if it was the King of Siam who said it, the lack of commentary in substantive independent sources is what makes it undue. We're not supposed to scour the internet for primary sources supporting or debunking a specific POV, we are supposed to reflect the consensus view of reliable sources, which, in this case, is "meh". Guy (Help!) 23:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Horowitz's views are mentioned several other times in the article. Why do you think this one time, when he is defending Coulter, is fringe and can't be included but the other times are OK for inclusion? I think your POV would be stronger if this was the only time Horowitz was in the article. Springee (talk) 04:33, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed a Horowitz quote which was sourced to Front Page Magazine. The other mentions of Horowitz come from sources that are at least marginally reliable.
You're continuing to imply that Horowitz himself carries some sort of notability or weight that applies to everything he says. That is not how it works. We may choose to include comments which have been prominently covered by reliable secondary sources, while policy requires that we exclude comments which do not meet this standard. –dlthewave☎05:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@Springee: You've asserted several times that the opinions of notable commentators inherently carry a certain amount of weight, including the extraordinary claim that "WEIGHT allows inclusion of views/opinions of notable commentators/experts in cases like this." This is a misrepresentation of our policies, in fact WP:WEIGHT concerns the prominence of a viewpoint among reliable sources and says nothing about the opinions of notable individuals. –dlthewave☎23:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:29, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Done I've tagged the link as dead. NiciVampireHeart 14:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)