| Revision as of 14:12, 17 August 2019 editKhajidha (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users28,112 edits →The time has come: Welcome to Kyiv on English Misplaced Pages! #KyivNotKiev← Previous edit | Revision as of 02:45, 18 August 2019 edit undoPiznajko (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,229 edits →The time has come: Welcome to Kyiv on English Misplaced Pages! #KyivNotKievNext edit → | ||
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| :::::Sometimes it with this waiting means that Misplaced Pages is laughably behind, but it is what it is... - not trendy but veeeery conservative. In conclusion - the supporters can still bring add more and more evidence here, just for our information about the progress, but it can't result in move request... yet. But congrats on that AP thing, it may be huge in the future, no matter how you hear/read here that Ukrainians can't be so smug to tell English speakers what terms to use. ] (]) 10:47, 17 August 2019 (UTC) | :::::Sometimes it with this waiting means that Misplaced Pages is laughably behind, but it is what it is... - not trendy but veeeery conservative. In conclusion - the supporters can still bring add more and more evidence here, just for our information about the progress, but it can't result in move request... yet. But congrats on that AP thing, it may be huge in the future, no matter how you hear/read here that Ukrainians can't be so smug to tell English speakers what terms to use. ] (]) 10:47, 17 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::Trends are subject to change. They can stall or even reverse. As for your "outdated" vs "modern" comment, if Kiev accounts for 2/3 of current usage, then it IS (by definition) the modern usage and is (also by definition) not outdated. --] (]) 14:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC) | ::::::Trends are subject to change. They can stall or even reverse. As for your "outdated" vs "modern" comment, if Kiev accounts for 2/3 of current usage, then it IS (by definition) the modern usage and is (also by definition) not outdated. --] (]) 14:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::: Heard through the grapevine :D that after AP's columnist ] two days ago on 8/15/2019, there will be an official announcement shortly from Bloomberg's VP of Standards that effective immediately Bloomberg is to use Kyiv spelling; also the next 15th edition of their Style Guide "The Bloomberg Way" will include that too. This is an avalanche!--] (]) 02:45, 18 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 02:45, 18 August 2019
 | This is a subpage of Talk:Kiev for discussing the name of the article Kiev. Please take all discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. Bishonen | talk.
Please note that due to technical reasons any actual move requests need to be made on Talk:Kiev, but should be moved here after they are listed on WP:RMC. Also, please note that in addition to the formal requested moves listed below, there have also been a considerable number of other proposals, requests for comment, etc. suggesting a change of name from Kiev to Kyiv, all of which have ended in keeping the current name, Kiev. Proposals can be found in the archives. |
 | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
 | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
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The time has come: Welcome to Kyiv on English Misplaced Pages! #KyivNotKiev
Finally, the time has come. Millions of Ukrainophiles all over the world have been waiting for this day their whole life - and it's finally here. Yesterday's historic decision by Associated Press, whereby they announced on Twitter, that they were switching to spelling Kyiv correctly, marks a new dawn for all English speakers around the world. As described on the 14th of August 2019 in a detailed blog-post by John Daniszewski, Associate Press's VP of Standards, all Associated Press media outlets will start using Kyiv in all contexts, effective immediately (this is a reverse of Daniszewski's decision from 2014); the only exception will occur in certain contexts that use proper nouns (e.g., for proper nouns, AP will use the most-widely-used-in-English version at the moment, e.g. "Chicken Kiev", "Kievan Rus" but "Dynamo Kyiv" etc.). As further explained in Kyiv Post article on this news, Kiev no more: AP Stylebook changes spelling of Ukrainian capital to Kyiv, The AP Stylebook, one of the most prominent English-language style and usage guides created by American journalists, has changed its spelling of Ukraine’s capital from Kiev to Kyiv.
, which marks a new dawn for the usage of Kyiv in English-language media: thousands of national and local newspapers use 'The AP Stylebook' as their gold standard in English-language spelling, and this means that thousands of English-language media all over the world started using Kyiv spelling as of today. This has already been reflected in Google search trends: there's been a clear increase in the usage of Kyiv spelling in google search engine within the last 10 years as reflected in Google Trends, and AP's announcement will undoubtedly only add to the rise of Kyiv's usage.
As a reminder, earlier this year hundreds of English-media outlets have changed their official Style guides to use Kyiv instead of Kiev , including some of the prominent names such as The Guardian and its sister outlets such as the Observer (see announcement on Twitter by Shaun Walker, The Guardian's VP of Standards, on the 13th of February 2019 and the subsequent update to their Official Style guide, etc.) Additionally, earlier this year hundreds of institutions around the world have all announced that they are dropping the incorrect spelling Kiev and are adopting the correct spelling Kyiv effective immediately (e.g., international airports, such as London's Luton International Airport Toronto's Lester B. Pearson International Airport Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport, Bucharest International Airport, Budapest International Airport, Istanbul International Airport, Tallinn International Airport, Vilnius International Airport, Georgia's Tbilisi/Batumi International Airports, Montenegro's Tivat International Airport Kazakh's Astana Nursultan Nazarbayev and Almaty International Airports, Gdansk International Airport, Geneva International Airport Warsaw International Airport Frankfurt International Airport, Munich International Airport, Brussels International Airport, Manchester International Airport, Larnaka International Airport and Pafos International Airport (Cyprus), Athens International Airport Eleftherios Venizelos (Greece), Beirut–Rafic Hariri International Airport (Lebanon), and hundreds of other airports around the world; government offices, such as The EU institutions via its updated Publications Office Interinstitutional Style Guide U.S. Board on Geographic Names and the likes; corporations, such as Ukraine International Airline, and the like.
One can learn more about the recent switch to using Kyiv spelling around the world via this excellent oped at The Week magazine Why Ukraine is changing the spelling of its capital from July 7, 2019.
In conclusion, @Roman Spinner:, as an editor who has significantly more experience than me on English Misplaced Pages and knows its rules much better (including the name change policies), I would like to ask for your help to weigh in whether you consider it appropriate to finally change the name of this article to the correct English spelling of Kyiv. Thank you all, and God bless America!--Piznajko (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- p.s. Btw, even Hollywood has (finally!) started using Kyiv spelling (as is evident from all latest movies in 2019 that mention Kyiv, e.g, Creed 2 etc.) --Piznajko (talk) 00:19, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Piznajko:, as you well know, my single vote has always been cast in Support of the form "Kyiv" and, while these new developments may indeed change the votes of some Wikipedians in favor of moving this article's main title header, achieving indisputable consensus is still likely to run into opposition. I discussed this matter eight months ago with a (now indefinitely blocked) Wikipedian at User talk:Roman Spinner#I can not send you a message and the forecast in my final paragraph, "Time is indisputably on the side of Kyiv", seems to be progressing now at a faster-than-expected pace. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:39, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- User:Piznajko. These are still just isolated events. And all those international airports and international companies are irrelevant to usage in the Anglophone world. The common usage of English speakers is all that matters. No English speaker gives two cents about what happens in the airport at Frankfort. The only relevant piece of information is the change in the AP Style Guide. If media outlets actually begin to follow suit (including the New York Times, LA Times, and Washington Post), then it can be considered. But you're just wrong when you say that "hundreds of media outlets" have changed. You have zero evidence for that, you're just making up comments to try to push your POV. In other words, prove it. That will take at least 200 media outlets in the English speaking world that have changed with evidence of it. Fat chance. --Taivo (talk) 03:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Taivo. Well, as you probably know
AP's members include about 1,400 daily US newspapers and thousands of television and radio broadcasters.
. And as you might also know, every day they reprint hundreds and hundreds of AP news articles word-to-word, in other words without changing a single word (e.g., so when AP uses Kyiv spelling, it automatically gets used by hundreds and hundreds of English-speaking newspapers around the world).--Piznajko (talk) 07:54, 15 August 2019 (UTC)- @Roman Spinner: thanks for you reply. Btw just noticed: yesterday, on August 14th 2019, Bloomberg announced that it was also following suit with Associate Press and switching its Style Guide to use Kyiv spelling (via AP's columnist Leonid Bershidsky's Twitter update and first reported today by Berlin-based Intellinews)--Piznajko (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- AP changing is not the same thing as "hundreds of media sources have already switched". While the style guide may have changed, that still doesn't mean that articles written for the AP will actually switch. And again, your use of international sources is a false representation of English usage, which is only relevant to English-speaking countries. We will see soon enough if the AP switch actually affects common English usage. It might change, it might not. But just projecting your own wishes is not evidence and it is certainly a false claim to say that "hundreds of media sources have already switched". --Taivo (talk) 08:27, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Taivo. Your statement
While the style guide may have changed, that still doesn't mean that articles written for the AP will actually switch
is factually incorrect, e.g., false: all AP journalists have to follow AP's Stylebook and if they don't - they get fired. In other words, if you were an AP journalist and you told your boss on Aug 15 (e.g., on the 2nd day when Kyiv spelling was introduced) that you were not going to write Kyiv due to your person beliefs and such, and instead will continue using Kiev , your AP boss would've simply fired you for that. Media outlets in the US are no joke and require strict journalistic standards.--Piznajko (talk) 09:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)- As of right now, news sources are still 2:1 in favor of Kiev. While this announcement is obviously significant, it is still not clear that overall usage will swing to Kyiv. --Khajidha (talk) 11:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- Also, the results I am seeing for Kiev are mostly from within the Anglosphere, while those for Kyiv are either 1) from non-English speaking countries or 2) produced within the Anglosphere for distribution to non-native speakers (like Radio Free Europe). Neither of those types of sources are normative for general English usage. --Khajidha (talk) 13:23, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Taivo. Your statement
- AP changing is not the same thing as "hundreds of media sources have already switched". While the style guide may have changed, that still doesn't mean that articles written for the AP will actually switch. And again, your use of international sources is a false representation of English usage, which is only relevant to English-speaking countries. We will see soon enough if the AP switch actually affects common English usage. It might change, it might not. But just projecting your own wishes is not evidence and it is certainly a false claim to say that "hundreds of media sources have already switched". --Taivo (talk) 08:27, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Roman Spinner: thanks for you reply. Btw just noticed: yesterday, on August 14th 2019, Bloomberg announced that it was also following suit with Associate Press and switching its Style Guide to use Kyiv spelling (via AP's columnist Leonid Bershidsky's Twitter update and first reported today by Berlin-based Intellinews)--Piznajko (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Taivo. Well, as you probably know
- User:Piznajko. These are still just isolated events. And all those international airports and international companies are irrelevant to usage in the Anglophone world. The common usage of English speakers is all that matters. No English speaker gives two cents about what happens in the airport at Frankfort. The only relevant piece of information is the change in the AP Style Guide. If media outlets actually begin to follow suit (including the New York Times, LA Times, and Washington Post), then it can be considered. But you're just wrong when you say that "hundreds of media outlets" have changed. You have zero evidence for that, you're just making up comments to try to push your POV. In other words, prove it. That will take at least 200 media outlets in the English speaking world that have changed with evidence of it. Fat chance. --Taivo (talk) 03:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Piznajko:, as you well know, my single vote has always been cast in Support of the form "Kyiv" and, while these new developments may indeed change the votes of some Wikipedians in favor of moving this article's main title header, achieving indisputable consensus is still likely to run into opposition. I discussed this matter eight months ago with a (now indefinitely blocked) Wikipedian at User talk:Roman Spinner#I can not send you a message and the forecast in my final paragraph, "Time is indisputably on the side of Kyiv", seems to be progressing now at a faster-than-expected pace. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:39, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yeap, it's definitely time to change the soviet-style and russian-style name to a proper and the only-correct one - Kyiv. Goo3 (talk) 09:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- User:Goo3, you don't know what an exonym is. There is no such thing as a "proper and only-correct" one except for the name that speakers of English actually use. Khadija is correct, the trend is still for "Kiev" within the Anglosphere and Piznajko is wrong that writers could lose their jobs. The AP decision (which was made by a Ukrainian/Polish staff member even though it violates the history of AP exonym policies) may tip the balance, but the important thing to realize for all of you cheerleaders is that the balance has not tipped in favor of Kyiv yet. Until it does, Misplaced Pages retains the common English name for Ukraine's capital--Kiev. --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Taivo The balance has indeed tipped in favor of Kyiv. Heartfelt congrats to everyone involved - this is a historic event, which millions of Ukrainophiles been waiting for for centuries!--Piznajko (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- I actually think it will start to hasten the English spelling towards Kyiv. It may be a few years, but I do think it will happen. Not for me personally, but then I still use Bombay, Burma, Ceylon, Saigon, Calcutta, even sometimes Peking. You use them for so long that it's just natural. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:14, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Your joy is premature, User:Piznajko. When the scales actually do tip in favor of Kyiv, then you can celebrate and it will be time to change the title of this article. But as long as Kiev still prevails in English language sources, AP alone isn't enough of an argument. The facts must clearly demonstrate that English speakers have changed their habits. --Taivo (talk) 08:57, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- 2:1 is impressive enough, still losing, but the growth is significant. Also important: momentum. But as you can see, traditionalists here will fight and Misplaced Pages will be 'last' to change, noone here will allow to switch based on evidence like momentum/trend/future projections. You will argue with outdated terms and current modern one, but I guess you will have to wait until the common usage actually changes.Chrzwzcz (talk) 07:55, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Correct... and that would be[REDACTED] policy. We wait. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sometimes it with this waiting means that Misplaced Pages is laughably behind, but it is what it is... - not trendy but veeeery conservative. In conclusion - the supporters can still bring add more and more evidence here, just for our information about the progress, but it can't result in move request... yet. But congrats on that AP thing, it may be huge in the future, no matter how you hear/read here that Ukrainians can't be so smug to tell English speakers what terms to use. Chrzwzcz (talk) 10:47, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Trends are subject to change. They can stall or even reverse. As for your "outdated" vs "modern" comment, if Kiev accounts for 2/3 of current usage, then it IS (by definition) the modern usage and is (also by definition) not outdated. --Khajidha (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Heard through the grapevine :D that after AP's columnist Leonid Bershidsky leaked the news on Twitter two days ago on 8/15/2019, there will be an official announcement shortly from Bloomberg's VP of Standards that effective immediately Bloomberg is to use Kyiv spelling; also the next 15th edition of their Style Guide "The Bloomberg Way" will include that too. This is an avalanche!--Piznajko (talk) 02:45, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Trends are subject to change. They can stall or even reverse. As for your "outdated" vs "modern" comment, if Kiev accounts for 2/3 of current usage, then it IS (by definition) the modern usage and is (also by definition) not outdated. --Khajidha (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sometimes it with this waiting means that Misplaced Pages is laughably behind, but it is what it is... - not trendy but veeeery conservative. In conclusion - the supporters can still bring add more and more evidence here, just for our information about the progress, but it can't result in move request... yet. But congrats on that AP thing, it may be huge in the future, no matter how you hear/read here that Ukrainians can't be so smug to tell English speakers what terms to use. Chrzwzcz (talk) 10:47, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Correct... and that would be[REDACTED] policy. We wait. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- User:Goo3, you don't know what an exonym is. There is no such thing as a "proper and only-correct" one except for the name that speakers of English actually use. Khadija is correct, the trend is still for "Kiev" within the Anglosphere and Piznajko is wrong that writers could lose their jobs. The AP decision (which was made by a Ukrainian/Polish staff member even though it violates the history of AP exonym policies) may tip the balance, but the important thing to realize for all of you cheerleaders is that the balance has not tipped in favor of Kyiv yet. Until it does, Misplaced Pages retains the common English name for Ukraine's capital--Kiev. --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2019 (UTC)