| Revision as of 07:38, 19 September 2019 editYmblanter (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators270,123 edits Undid revision 916506493 by Piznajko (talk) next revert will result in a block for edit-warringTag: Undo← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:57, 20 September 2019 edit undoPiznajko (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,229 edits →Thousands of US newspapers use AP style guide, so...: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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| :::::::::::I can't see how anyone is being rude and condescending. They're merely pointing out that this has all been discussed before many times and nothing has changed. -- ] (]) 10:11, 17 September 2019 (UTC) | :::::::::::I can't see how anyone is being rude and condescending. They're merely pointing out that this has all been discussed before many times and nothing has changed. -- ] (]) 10:11, 17 September 2019 (UTC) | ||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| == Thousands of US newspapers use AP style guide, so... == | |||
| * Since the on has been archived before I had a chance to add additional information about its impact on US media landscape, I'm adding it here. As a reminder and is used by thousands of US national and local newspapers (this was also mentioned '''numerous''' times in the past on this thread as a '''supporting claim''' FOR using the "Kiev " spelling in enwiki, for example by ] etc.). For example in recent years such prominent English-language media had this warning in their Ukraine-related articles: | |||
| ** NPR: <code>.</code> () | |||
| ** Bloomberg News (the editor-in-chief John Micklethwait recently clarified that spelling of cities is not part of their Style Guidebook "The Bloomberg Way" and that in these instances they just follow AP Style book; e.g., now Bloomberg News uses Kyiv spelling per AP Styleguide; this was previously also confirmed by the Writing standards Editor for Americas Jennifer Sondag in 2017, {{tq|Sondag said there’s more flexibility and that Bloomberg will often default to AP Style if there isn’t a specific rule outlined in “The Bloomberg Way.”}})--] (]) 19:57, 20 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 19:57, 20 September 2019
 | This is a subpage of Talk:Kiev for discussing the name of the article Kiev. Please take all discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. Bishonen | talk.
Please note that due to technical reasons any actual move requests need to be made on Talk:Kiev, but should be moved here after they are listed on WP:RMC. Also, please note that in addition to the formal requested moves listed below, there have also been a considerable number of other proposals, requests for comment, etc. suggesting a change of name from Kiev to Kyiv, all of which have ended in keeping the current name, Kiev. Proposals can be found in the archives. |
 | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
 | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Move This Page To "Kyiv"
If you want the article to be renamed, the ONLY way to accomplish this is to start a WP:RM. Please note however that this has been done at least 10 times in the past 11 years, and the result has always been the same. The last RM was only two months ago; I suggest waiting until about a year from now, since nothing has substantially changed externally since the last RM. Softlavender (talk) 11:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Kyiv" is the correct spelling, as it is the latinized form of the Ukrainian name. "Kiev" comes from the Russian spelling, and it isn't even a proper latinized version of that, which is correctly latinized as "Kiyev". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vigilante Girl (talk • contribs) 17:46, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
- We are writing in English, not Ukrainian or Russian, Romanized or not. In English it is spelled Kiev. --Khajidha (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
- What Khajidha said. --Taivo (talk) 02:11, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
- What they said. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- And the spelling has been changed to "Kyiv" in English, as well, at least in the US: https://www.kyivpost.com/world/kyiv-not-kiev-us-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital.html I will make a seperate move request with this information. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 22:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Vigilante Girl: Have you even read all the prior evidence in the past 11 requested moves (plus countless non-formal requests like this)? The last formal move request was only 2 months ago and was overwhelmingly in favor of Kiev! Your user page says "I'm a girl who joined to help out Misplaced Pages by stopping fights" yet your initial heading and post was as if you've never checked out all the prior fights and snowball closes in favor of Kiev. Read them over and you'll understand the complexities involved. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- By stop "fights", I mean stop vandals and rude people. Reasonable debates and requests aren't "fights". And why should I check edits from the past when my evidence is recent and correct? And what do you mean by "non-formal requests"? Is my language somehow not formal enough for you? PS: Your condescending attitude is extremely rud. I do not appreciate being talked down to, and I will not stand for it. Do not think that everyone you meet, online or offline, will bow down to you. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 23:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- "And the spelling has been changed to "Kyiv" in English, as well, at least in the US". That only applies to the government itself, it has no bearing on general English usage. Why is this so hard for people to understand? NO government, not that of the US, nor that of the UK, and most especially not that of Ukraine can dictate common English usage. Kiev is still used at approximately twice the frequency of Kyiv judging by most web searches. And many of the uses of Kyiv come from sources within Ukraine itself or otherwise outside of the Anglosphere. Do you really mean to suggest that the usage of secondary speakers is of primary importance? The "correct" English spelling is whatever the bulk of native English speaking sources say it is. Whether that is derived from Ukrainian, from Russian, from Japanese, from Arabic, from Navaho, from Klingon, or just from random letters pulled from a bag of Scrabble tiles. And the usage found most often (to an overwhelming degree) is "Kiev". This "debate" is the furthest thing from "reasonable" I can possibly imagine. The evidence is clear. The English name is "Kiev".--Khajidha (talk) 23:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- Formal requests would be a formal RfC or listed RM. This was more an informal request... that's what I meant. As far as checking past discussions, that would be a normal thing to do to make sure your aren't spinning your wheels with pretty much the same arguments. It did not appear to me you did any checking before your request, and now you have confirmed it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- And just a hint: KyivPost is not a reliable source for English language usage. It's a Ukrainian paper for English speakers, it's not even from the Anglosphere. --Taivo (talk) 06:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- And why should we not listen to the Ukrainians and change our common usage? It's their city, and they clearly have a problem with the incorrect English spelling. Calling Kyiv "Kiev" is almost as disrespectful to them as calling their country "the Ukraine". --Vigilante Girl (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- Because the English-speaking world hasn't changed its common usage. It's Misplaced Pages's job to report facts, not to change them. This is an encyclopaedia, not a soapbox or a vehicle for change. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Khajidha: It's only unreasonable now since people started being rude and condescending. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 09:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- I can't see how anyone is being rude and condescending. They're merely pointing out that this has all been discussed before many times and nothing has changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- And why should we not listen to the Ukrainians and change our common usage? It's their city, and they clearly have a problem with the incorrect English spelling. Calling Kyiv "Kiev" is almost as disrespectful to them as calling their country "the Ukraine". --Vigilante Girl (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- And just a hint: KyivPost is not a reliable source for English language usage. It's a Ukrainian paper for English speakers, it's not even from the Anglosphere. --Taivo (talk) 06:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- Formal requests would be a formal RfC or listed RM. This was more an informal request... that's what I meant. As far as checking past discussions, that would be a normal thing to do to make sure your aren't spinning your wheels with pretty much the same arguments. It did not appear to me you did any checking before your request, and now you have confirmed it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- "And the spelling has been changed to "Kyiv" in English, as well, at least in the US". That only applies to the government itself, it has no bearing on general English usage. Why is this so hard for people to understand? NO government, not that of the US, nor that of the UK, and most especially not that of Ukraine can dictate common English usage. Kiev is still used at approximately twice the frequency of Kyiv judging by most web searches. And many of the uses of Kyiv come from sources within Ukraine itself or otherwise outside of the Anglosphere. Do you really mean to suggest that the usage of secondary speakers is of primary importance? The "correct" English spelling is whatever the bulk of native English speaking sources say it is. Whether that is derived from Ukrainian, from Russian, from Japanese, from Arabic, from Navaho, from Klingon, or just from random letters pulled from a bag of Scrabble tiles. And the usage found most often (to an overwhelming degree) is "Kiev". This "debate" is the furthest thing from "reasonable" I can possibly imagine. The evidence is clear. The English name is "Kiev".--Khajidha (talk) 23:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- By stop "fights", I mean stop vandals and rude people. Reasonable debates and requests aren't "fights". And why should I check edits from the past when my evidence is recent and correct? And what do you mean by "non-formal requests"? Is my language somehow not formal enough for you? PS: Your condescending attitude is extremely rud. I do not appreciate being talked down to, and I will not stand for it. Do not think that everyone you meet, online or offline, will bow down to you. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 23:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Vigilante Girl: Have you even read all the prior evidence in the past 11 requested moves (plus countless non-formal requests like this)? The last formal move request was only 2 months ago and was overwhelmingly in favor of Kiev! Your user page says "I'm a girl who joined to help out Misplaced Pages by stopping fights" yet your initial heading and post was as if you've never checked out all the prior fights and snowball closes in favor of Kiev. Read them over and you'll understand the complexities involved. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- And the spelling has been changed to "Kyiv" in English, as well, at least in the US: https://www.kyivpost.com/world/kyiv-not-kiev-us-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital.html I will make a seperate move request with this information. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 22:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- What they said. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- What Khajidha said. --Taivo (talk) 02:11, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Thousands of US newspapers use AP style guide, so...
- Since the original discussion on AP style guide's decision to switch to Kyiv has been archived before I had a chance to add additional information about its impact on US media landscape, I'm adding it here. As a reminder AP Stylebook is one of the most prominent English-language style and usage guides created by American journalists and is used by thousands of US national and local newspapers (this was also mentioned numerous times in the past on this thread as a supporting claim FOR using the "Kiev " spelling in enwiki, for example on October 14, 2007 by User:Horlo etc.). For example in recent years such prominent English-language media had this warning in their Ukraine-related articles:
- NPR:
Note that NPR follows AP style. That's why we're using "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv" in this post.(picture version) - Bloomberg News (the editor-in-chief John Micklethwait recently clarified that spelling of cities is not part of their Style Guidebook "The Bloomberg Way" and that in these instances they just follow AP Style book; e.g., now Bloomberg News uses Kyiv spelling per AP Styleguide; this was previously also confirmed by the Writing standards Editor for Americas Jennifer Sondag in 2017, quote
Sondag said there’s more flexibility and that Bloomberg will often default to AP Style if there isn’t a specific rule outlined in “The Bloomberg Way.”
)--Piznajko (talk) 19:57, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
- NPR:
