| Revision as of 19:19, 1 October 2019 editPiznajko (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,229 edits Obviously a typo← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:08, 1 October 2019 edit undoPiznajko (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,229 edits →The Library of Congress has officially changed its spelling of Ukrainian capital from Kiev to Kyiv (following BGN and AP Stylebook decision)Next edit → | ||
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| :::::"Dynamic" means that the measurements that Misplaced Pages uses to judge ] are changing rapidly. They are not. A style guide changes. But '''''common English usage does not change'''''. Another style guide changes. But '''''common English usage does not change'''''. That is '''''NOT''''' "dynamic". When Google News over the past week shows that "Kiev" is still ten times more common than "Kyiv", there's nothing dynamic. A child can repeat "I want a pony" a thousand times a day, thinking they will get a pony, even though the family lives in a downtown apartment building and a pony is nowhere in the cards. After one of those repetitions, the child might find themselves having to suffer "a time out". --] (]) 14:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC) | :::::"Dynamic" means that the measurements that Misplaced Pages uses to judge ] are changing rapidly. They are not. A style guide changes. But '''''common English usage does not change'''''. Another style guide changes. But '''''common English usage does not change'''''. That is '''''NOT''''' "dynamic". When Google News over the past week shows that "Kiev" is still ten times more common than "Kyiv", there's nothing dynamic. A child can repeat "I want a pony" a thousand times a day, thinking they will get a pony, even though the family lives in a downtown apartment building and a pony is nowhere in the cards. After one of those repetitions, the child might find themselves having to suffer "a time out". --] (]) 14:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC) | ||
| ::::: "''There will be one on or before July 2020 which may ultimately succeed if all the stylebooks are on board by then''" What the stylebooks say is ''completely irrelevant'' to what the title of this article is; unless of course a large number of stylebook changes have pushed the general English-language usage to a majority favouring Kyiv. But the latter is the metric, not the former. ] 17:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC) | ::::: "''There will be one on or before July 2020 which may ultimately succeed if all the stylebooks are on board by then''" What the stylebooks say is ''completely irrelevant'' to what the title of this article is; unless of course a large number of stylebook changes have pushed the general English-language usage to a majority favouring Kyiv. But the latter is the metric, not the former. ] 17:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC) | ||
| ::::: I agree with {{ping|Roman Spinner}} that there is nothing disruptive with such discussions, because, as was rightly pointed out by him, {{tq|suggestions for name improvement initiated at ]/] are immediately transferred to this talk subpage and then quickly archived, new suggestions have to restarted on an empty talk page}}. Like it or not, the main trend-setters of English language on the internet/in print/in speech are English language news organizations, and as such '''there is indeed a direct causality link''' between when a large Engilsh-media news organization changes its stylebook to Kyiv and the commonality of Kyiv being used in English in news articles/airport/libraries etc; in other words Black Kite your statement above that {{tq|Another style guide changes but common English usage does not change}} is simply not true. When one looks at the previous few months, it is easier to see direct causality between English language Styleguides' change and increase in Kyiv usage in English, see for yourself: | |||
| ::::: => numerous geography-related English institutions follow suite & Kyiv usage in English in geography-related matters rises rapidly | |||
| ::::: IATA announces in July 2019 that Kyiv is now the only correct spelling of Ukraine's capital => more than 60 international airports follow suite & Kyiv usage in English in airports-related matters rises rapidly | |||
| ::::: AP Stylebook (and with less weight, Guardian styleguide, NPR styleguide, Bloomberg styleguides etc.) announces in Aug 2019 that Kyiv is now the only correct spelling of Ukraine's capital => thousands of English media outlets follow suite & Kyiv usage in English in news-related matters rises rapidly | |||
| ::::: and so on, the pattern goes on | |||
| :::::: p.s. Taivo please stop bringing up manipulative claims Kiev-vs.Kyiv has 10-to-1 lead in being mentioned in English language media - that is simply not true. As was shown to you before, in reality there is a '''huge''' spike in the usage of Kyiv over the last few months, driven primarily by the changes Style guide by AP Stylebook (as the English language styleguide used by nearly all English language media worldwide, e.g., close to 99.9 of all English media outlets) (but also to a lesser extend by individual Styleguides of other major US/UK news organizations, such as Bloomberg news, The Guardian, NPR news etc.). It is questionable at best to throw claims of that it is Kiev-vs.Kyiv has 10-to-1 lead, which is supposedly achieved through Google search restricted to last 7 days when searching for Trump/Zelensky controversy: that methodology is faulty, and should not be used because Trump/Zelensky controversy is older than 7 days and therefore there shouldn't be a time restriction on the Google search results. Without time restriction, it was already search <code>kiev -kyiv trump zelensky</code> ( <code><nowiki>http://google.com/search?q=kiev -kyiv trump zelensky</nowiki></code> ) produces '''419 000 results''', whereas <code>kyiv -kiev trump zelensky</code> ( <code><nowiki>http://google.com/search?q=kyiv -kiev trump zelensky</nowiki></code> ) produces '''196 000 results''' <small>, in other words there is only 1 to 2 in favor of Kiev vs. Kyiv (and nothing close to x10 claimed by your above). This shows that English language usage of Kyiv has rapidly skyrocketed in recent months - the same exact search just a year ago would produce something closer to 1:2000 (two thousand).--] (]) 20:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: ''comment on 'credentials'{{efn|since it seems I put Roman Spinner in an uncomfortable position where he is being ] questioned by Taivo and is forced to defend his 'credentials' (for that I apologize to you {{ping|Roman Spinner}}), I want to clarify few things: 1) indeed every editor has equal authority as to a specific article, per 2) however, some editors, even though they might not have a 'formal' PhD on the subject, yet they have amassed enough academic knowledge (you don't need to be a professor at a university to have academic knowledge) to become subject-matter-expert on the topic. And this is indeed the case with {{ping|Roman Spinner}} - through his remarkable 10+ years of editing on ''a verity of subjects'' (not just Ukraine-related, but still also including Ukraine-related ones) showed that he is able to improve variety of articles with academic-grade level of rigor (excellent NPOV, excellent sources etc.). In other words, I never claimed that Roman Spinner has a PhD in 'Ukranian Studies''', however he has shown with his excellent academic-grade-level contribution to Ukraine-related articles that he is a "one of the few academically knowledgeable voices in matters concerning Ukraine"--] (]) 20:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)}} | |||
| ; Notes | |||
| {{notelist}} | |||
| == Capital name == | == Capital name == | ||
Revision as of 20:08, 1 October 2019
 | This is a subpage of Talk:Kiev for discussing the name of the article Kiev. Please take all discussion of the name here, reserving the regular talkpage for other matters. I hope that this division will benefit both the regular talkpage and the name discussion itself. Happy editing. Bishonen | talk.
Please note that due to technical reasons any actual move requests need to be made on Talk:Kiev, but should be moved here after they are listed on WP:RMC. Also, please note that in addition to the formal requested moves listed below, there have also been a considerable number of other proposals, requests for comment, etc. suggesting a change of name from Kiev to Kyiv, all of which have ended in keeping the current name, Kiev. Proposals can be found in the archives. |
 | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
 | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
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 Archives | ||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Ukraine's Embassy Says It's “Kyiv, not Kiev.”
@Black Kite: The Ukrainian Embassy in Washington DC just tweeted this: “Let us kindly help you to use the words related to #Ukraine correctly,” Ukraine’s Embassy in the U.S. tweeted, noting that the country goes by “Ukraine, not ‘the’ Ukraine” and that its capital city should be spelled “Kyiv, not Kiev.” Commenter8 (talk) 23:51, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Remind me again when the Ukrainian embassy was granted power to set correct English usage? Because my own government doesn't even have that power. --Khajidha (talk) 00:46, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- References
- Caitlin Oprysko (30 September 2019). "Ukrainian Embassy begs public to stop using 'the Ukraine' after latest Trump flub". Politico.com. Retrieved 30 September 2019.
The Library of Congress has officially changed its spelling of Ukrainian capital from Kiev to Kyiv (following BGN and AP Stylebook decision)
Since the original discussion on AP style guide's decision in Aug 2019 to switch to Kyiv as well as the discussion on NPR style guide's decision to follow AP Stylebook's recommendation in Sep 2019 to switch to Kyiv have been archived before I had a chance to add additional information about its impact on US media landscape, I'm adding it here:
On Sept. 12 2019 The Library of Congress has officially changed its spelling of Ukrainian capital from Kiev to Kyiv (following BGN and AP Stylebook decision to change their official spelling to Kyiv). This was just recently decided and the decision was announced via the PCC listserv announcement. A more general announcement will be shared in November 2019 once LOC is able to make the actual changes to the database.
@Roman Spinner: per your earlier note that not all major English media styleguides have adopted Kyiv spelling yet, I would remind you that the VPs of Standards of other major English institutions, including IATA, Bloomberg News and ABC (not to be confused with US media ABC News; ABC is Australian Broadcasting Corporation, their version of BBC) have all publicly committed to making a similar decision and will announce it shortly once internal bureaucracy is settled. It is true that there are still around 10 major US/UK English media (which use their own styleguides, rather that using AP Stylebook) styleguides that have not yet updated their guideline to Kyiv, but frankly I don't expect them to take longer than 1-2 months. E.g, your previous comment that it will take ~12 months (e.g. Sep 2020) for the remainder of major US/UK English media styleguides to adopt Kyiv spelling seems somewhat conservative.--Piznajko (talk) 23:14, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- A question. Why are you re-litigating the exact same arguments that were in the archived sections? Surely it must be obvious by now, and by reading the archives for the last, what, 10 years? that this article is not ever going to be moved in the near future. Come back when there is actual evidence that Kyiv is - or is even trending - towards the English WP:COMMONNAME. Frankly, this is starting to edge towards disruptive. Black Kite (talk) 23:24, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Black Kite, You probably did not read my comment above carefly: this is is a different discussion about change by Library of Congress and whether that's an authoritative enough event for English language to trigger a name change to this article. Whereas previous 2 discsions were: 1) one on AP Styleguide's decision and 2) one on NPR Styleguide's decision. Also your comment
Surely it must be obvious by now, and by reading the archives for the last, what, 10 years? that this article is not ever going to be moved in the near future.
is not valid given that situation in previous 10 years is very different to the situation in Feb-Sep 2019 when AP Stylebook announced its decision to change spelling of Kyiv; I would also like to ask @Roman Spinner: - who is one of the few academically knowledgable voices on English WP about Ukraine-related topics - whether he agrees with Black Kite's accusation of disruptive behaviour.--Piznajko (talk) 23:32, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- As you must surely realise, no stylebook change or any other change even by major providers is going to provoke a change of article title until those changes actually produce a situation in which Kyiv is the COMMONNAME used by reliable English-language sources. You aren't going to change anything here, or now. If the Library of Congress change now produces a difference in those sources in the future, then you come back here when that happens. This is not a difficult concept. Black Kite (talk) 23:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Plznajko, why do you keep looking for some edict from some authority? Have you not listened over the years to the fact that English usage is not subject to any authority? English usage is what it is. If that usage is Kiev, then that is what the page will be named. If English usage is Kyiv, then that is what the page will be named. But, if English usage were to change to something completely different (say, Narnia) then THAT is what the page will be named. Quit asking "is this authority enough to get the page moved?" Start asking "what does actual usage show that the English language calls this city?" Even the most ardent "Kyiv" supporters have not been able to show even equal usage for Kyiv, let alone majority usage. --Khajidha (talk) 00:52, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Plznajko, you are clearly in denial about the meaning of WP:COMMONNAME, which is not based on dictums from some source that you imagine has dictatorial authority over English usage. Your continual attempts to push your POV, despite continually failing to reach a WP:CONSENSUS is disruptive to the encyclopedia. You have nothing new in terms of English common usage. Until you do, then go away and accept the WP:CONSENSUS until English usage actually changes. And, I might point out, you have no fricking idea whether User:Roman Spinner "is one of the few academically knowledgeable voices" in matters concerning Ukraine or not since most Misplaced Pages editors don't post their credentials here. You don't know my academic credentials regarding language, toponymy, and Ukraine and I'm not going to share them. Such comments have no place in Misplaced Pages since Misplaced Pages decisions are made based on reliable sources and consensus, not upon someone's personal claims of authority. --Taivo (talk) 03:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Piznajko:, I have never made any claims about being an academic and am contributing to Misplaced Pages without any assertion of either authorship or authority on the subject. As for your question, I do not agree that continued advocacy on this talk page for Misplaced Pages's acceptance of "Kyiv" over "Kiev" "is starting to edge towards disruptive".
- At the top of this page, a list indicates that there were three WP:RM nominations in 2007, two in 2008, one in 2009, none in 2010 and 2011, one in 2012, one in 2013, none in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and, finally, one in October 2017, October 2018 and July 2019. There will be one on or before July 2020 which may ultimately succeed if all the stylebooks are on board by then but, if it still ends with no consensus, there will be another one on or before July 2021, which will have an even greater possibility of succeeding.
- There is nothing disruptive about such RMs since this is a dynamic issue discussed throughout the English-speaking world and WP:Consensus may change very quickly depending upon trajectory of intervening circumstances. In the meantime, since discussions centering upon improvement of Misplaced Pages's Kiev/Kyiv include moving the main title header from "Kiev" to "Kyiv", such discussions also cannot be considered disruptive.
- Because suggestions for name improvement initiated at Talk:Kiev/Talk:Kyiv are immediately transferred to this talk subpage and then quickly archived, new suggestions have to restarted on an empty talk page. As with any dynamic topic in the headlines, this topic has new information arriving on a nearly-daily basis and the dissemination of such information for the improvement of the main article is beneficial for users and should not be characterized as being disruptive. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Dynamic" means that the measurements that Misplaced Pages uses to judge WP:COMMONNAME are changing rapidly. They are not. A style guide changes. But common English usage does not change. Another style guide changes. But common English usage does not change. That is NOT "dynamic". When Google News over the past week shows that "Kiev" is still ten times more common than "Kyiv", there's nothing dynamic. A child can repeat "I want a pony" a thousand times a day, thinking they will get a pony, even though the family lives in a downtown apartment building and a pony is nowhere in the cards. After one of those repetitions, the child might find themselves having to suffer "a time out". --Taivo (talk) 14:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- "There will be one on or before July 2020 which may ultimately succeed if all the stylebooks are on board by then" What the stylebooks say is completely irrelevant to what the title of this article is; unless of course a large number of stylebook changes have pushed the general English-language usage to a majority favouring Kyiv. But the latter is the metric, not the former. Black Kite (talk) 17:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Black Kite, You probably did not read my comment above carefly: this is is a different discussion about change by Library of Congress and whether that's an authoritative enough event for English language to trigger a name change to this article. Whereas previous 2 discsions were: 1) one on AP Styleguide's decision and 2) one on NPR Styleguide's decision. Also your comment
- I agree with @Roman Spinner: that there is nothing disruptive with such discussions, because, as was rightly pointed out by him,
suggestions for name improvement initiated at Talk:Kiev/Talk:Kyiv are immediately transferred to this talk subpage and then quickly archived, new suggestions have to restarted on an empty talk page
. Like it or not, the main trend-setters of English language on the internet/in print/in speech are English language news organizations, and as such there is indeed a direct causality link between when a large Engilsh-media news organization changes its stylebook to Kyiv and the commonality of Kyiv being used in English in news articles/airport/libraries etc; in other words Black Kite your statement above thatAnother style guide changes but common English usage does not change
is simply not true. When one looks at the previous few months, it is easier to see direct causality between English language Styleguides' change and increase in Kyiv usage in English, see for yourself: - BGN announces in June 2019 that Kyiv is now the only correct spelling of Ukraine's capital => numerous geography-related English institutions follow suite & Kyiv usage in English in geography-related matters rises rapidly
- IATA announces in July 2019 that Kyiv is now the only correct spelling of Ukraine's capital => more than 60 international airports follow suite & Kyiv usage in English in airports-related matters rises rapidly
- AP Stylebook (and with less weight, Guardian styleguide, NPR styleguide, Bloomberg styleguides etc.) announces in Aug 2019 that Kyiv is now the only correct spelling of Ukraine's capital => thousands of English media outlets follow suite & Kyiv usage in English in news-related matters rises rapidly
- and so on, the pattern goes on
- I agree with @Roman Spinner: that there is nothing disruptive with such discussions, because, as was rightly pointed out by him,
- p.s. Taivo please stop bringing up manipulative claims Kiev-vs.Kyiv has 10-to-1 lead in being mentioned in English language media - that is simply not true. As was shown to you before, in reality there is a huge spike in the usage of Kyiv over the last few months, driven primarily by the changes Style guide by AP Stylebook (as the English language styleguide used by nearly all English language media worldwide, e.g., close to 99.9 of all English media outlets) (but also to a lesser extend by individual Styleguides of other major US/UK news organizations, such as Bloomberg news, The Guardian, NPR news etc.). It is questionable at best to throw claims of that it is Kiev-vs.Kyiv has 10-to-1 lead, which is supposedly achieved through Google search restricted to last 7 days when searching for Trump/Zelensky controversy: that methodology is faulty, and should not be used because Trump/Zelensky controversy is older than 7 days and therefore there shouldn't be a time restriction on the Google search results. Without time restriction, it was already shown in previous discussions search
kiev -kyiv trump zelensky(http://google.com/search?q=kiev -kyiv trump zelensky) produces 419 000 results, whereaskyiv -kiev trump zelensky(http://google.com/search?q=kyiv -kiev trump zelensky) produces 196 000 results , in other words there is only 1 to 2 in favor of Kiev vs. Kyiv (and nothing close to x10 claimed by your above). This shows that English language usage of Kyiv has rapidly skyrocketed in recent months - the same exact search just a year ago would produce something closer to 1:2000 (two thousand).--Piznajko (talk) 20:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- p.s. Taivo please stop bringing up manipulative claims Kiev-vs.Kyiv has 10-to-1 lead in being mentioned in English language media - that is simply not true. As was shown to you before, in reality there is a huge spike in the usage of Kyiv over the last few months, driven primarily by the changes Style guide by AP Stylebook (as the English language styleguide used by nearly all English language media worldwide, e.g., close to 99.9 of all English media outlets) (but also to a lesser extend by individual Styleguides of other major US/UK news organizations, such as Bloomberg news, The Guardian, NPR news etc.). It is questionable at best to throw claims of that it is Kiev-vs.Kyiv has 10-to-1 lead, which is supposedly achieved through Google search restricted to last 7 days when searching for Trump/Zelensky controversy: that methodology is faulty, and should not be used because Trump/Zelensky controversy is older than 7 days and therefore there shouldn't be a time restriction on the Google search results. Without time restriction, it was already shown in previous discussions search
- comment on 'credentials'{{efn|since it seems I put Roman Spinner in an uncomfortable position where he is being WP:non-civilly questioned by Taivo and is forced to defend his 'credentials' (for that I apologize to you @Roman Spinner:), I want to clarify few things: 1) indeed every editor has equal authority as to a specific article, per 2) however, some editors, even though they might not have a 'formal' PhD on the subject, yet they have amassed enough academic knowledge (you don't need to be a professor at a university to have academic knowledge) to become subject-matter-expert on the topic. And this is indeed the case with @Roman Spinner: - through his remarkable 10+ years of editing on a verity of subjects (not just Ukraine-related, but still also including Ukraine-related ones) showed that he is able to improve variety of articles with academic-grade level of rigor (excellent NPOV, excellent sources etc.). In other words, I never claimed that Roman Spinner has a PhD in 'Ukranian Studies', however he has shown with his excellent academic-grade-level contribution to Ukraine-related articles that he is a "one of the few academically knowledgeable voices in matters concerning Ukraine"--Piznajko (talk) 20:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)}}
- Notes
Capital name
No new arguments in this discussion compared to other discussions at this page, including archives--Ymblanter (talk) 05:36, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can you please correct the spelling of Ukraine's capital to "Kyiv", not Kiev.
Kiev is the Russian transliteration, while Kyiv is the Ukrainian one. Using the Russian spelling affirms this “condescending view that Russians have” of the country. ChrisRaz16 (talk) 01:01, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion concerning that very subject was still receiving comments as of today at Talk:Kiev/naming#Thousands of US newspapers use AP style guide, so.... —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:38, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- As has been said before, it is not a transliteration at all. It is the accepted English exonym. --Khajidha (talk) 03:44, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Roman Spinner:, @Khajidha: You know, history makes changes. There are famous archaic English exonyms such as Byzantium and Constantinople. And here, in Misplaced Pages you write "Istanbul, formerly known as Byzantium and Constantinople, ..." Speaking of "Kyiv", our country brought back the ancient pronunciation of its capital Kyiv that's why the spelling was changed more presicely. We currently write "Kyiv", our schoolchildren learn it as the only correct spelling because in all international official documents it is "Kyiv", not "Kiev". Again, firstly, yes, Misplaced Pages carries an informative function but it cannot be opposite to the educational function. If a lot of US newspapers are still not aware of some changes, then something should be done about it - and I am sure it will happen one day. Secondly, if you refuse to omit "Kiev", could you please at least put it in the second place after "Kyiv" with the note "Kyiv" is currently used in all intenational official/state documents", "Kiev is just another English exonym which is yet used by some media and still historically well known all over the world"? btw. On Google Maps you will only find "Kyiv" not "Kiev". Thank you for your thorough work and discussion. 217.77.212.60 (talk) 22:19, 30 September 2019 (UTC) 217.77.212.60 (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2019 (UTC)Tetiana
- @Roman Spinner: @Khajidha: The Ukrainian Embassy in Washington DC just tweeted this: “Let us kindly help you to use the words related to #Ukraine correctly,” Ukraine’s Embassy in the U.S. tweeted, noting that the country goes by “Ukraine, not ‘the’ Ukraine” and that its capital city should be spelled “Kyiv, not Kiev.” Commenter8 (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Having this discussion on this talk page is pointless. Please take this to Talk:Kiev. Whatever spelling is the WP:COMMONNAME, as best supported by sources, is the one WP uses there; all articles linking Ukraine's capital in general will do likewise, as the same sources will apply equally to all articles. --A D Monroe III 00:15, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- You all seem to be under the misapprehension that government statements and "official usage" hold some sort of control over the English language. They do not. The original poster tried to dismiss Kiev as "just another English exonym", not realizing that that is exactly why we use it. Actual English usage is paramount, and all sources show that actual English usage is overwhelmingly Kiev. And the Ukrainian embassy is not competent to make pronouncements on correct English. That is not even a power that English speaking governments have, let alone foreign ones.--Khajidha (talk) 00:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't know where and when it became unclear that none of the arguments for change have changed, and that trying to re-zhuzh them doesn't make them new, improved, or any more valid than they were: in a nutshell, when the standard usage unequivocally becomes 'Kyiv' we'll have something to discuss. Until then, we're all truly sick to death of this periodical revival of the same old same old. Please, please, please read all of the archived talk with care before you post your arguments (apologies, but I'm actually feeling as if bolding isn't really enough to convey how tiring these resurrections have become). If they're new, the rest of us will know it and be marvelling over this incredible change. I promise it will be the talk of the town. Until then, just drop it. Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.