Misplaced Pages

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This page provides a place to discuss new items for inclusion on In the news (ITN), a protected template on the Main Page (see past items in the ITN archives). Do not report errors in ITN items that are already on the Main Page here— discuss those at the relevant section of WP:ERRORS.

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Grand Kartal Hotel in 2007 A fire at a ski resort hotel (pictured) in Kartalkaya, Turkey, leaves at least 76 people dead and 51 others injured. A series of attacks by the National Liberation Army in the Catatumbo region of Colombia leaves more than a hundred people dead. A ceasefire agreement suspends the Israel–Hamas war, involving the release of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners. Two Supreme Court judges are assassinated in a shooting at the Supreme Court of Iran in Tehran. Ongoing: Russian invasion of Ukraine timeline Sudanese civil war timeline Recent deaths: Linda Nolan Tommy Brown Diane Langton Simon Townsend Claire van Kampen Nello Altomare Nominate an article view — page history — related changes — edit

Archives

January 17

Ongoing removal 2019–20 Australian bushfire season

Nominator's comments: Yes the fires are still ongoing, yes the article is still getting updates. Those "updates" are ref improvements, copy edits, and low grade edit wars. The most recent "new, pertinent information" is a note on January 6th that "Premier Andrews said that bushfires had burnt through 1.2 million hectares" and on the 5th a fire near Voyager Point that was "containing the fire to 60 hectares". Since the 14th of January the only new information I see are a few bits of proseline about international support. What was burning on the 10th? I have no idea because the article has no new information. Same for today. The requirements for ongoing are "continuously updated" not "continuously edited" and the updates simply aren't happening. LaserLegs (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

RD: Derek Fowlds

• Nominated by Mjroots (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Sunshineisles2 (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: British entertainer and actor. Minor referencing issues. Mjroots (talk) 15:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose career section and credits unreferenced. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 15:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

January 16

Block of Misplaced Pages in Turkey lifted

• Nominated by Dmartin969 (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: End of a major and long-lasting block of Wikiepdia, important news to Wikiepdians, and all supporters of free speech. dmartin969 02:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose this seems like navel gazing; while this is fantastic news it's not the most noteworthy and we're not here to right great wrongs. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

John M Wolfson It's not Misplaced Pages or a Misplaced Pages editor righting the wrong, it's the legal process in Turkey, and as WP:RGW notes, "We can record the righting of great wrongs". 331dot (talk) 13:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

But was this a great wrong that is being righted? It's true that it's a step towards transparency, but governments engage in censorship of information and the Internet all the time.--WaltCip (talk) 13:23, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I think reversing the denial of access to a database of general human knowledge is righting a great wrong and a great step for free speech in country not known for free speech. 331dot (talk) 13:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Was unsuccessfully nominated on 27 December. Stephen 08:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

That was the court decision itself, and at the time it was unknown as to if the government would comply. Now, they have. 331dot (talk) 13:09, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support – We are not the only ones that consider this important. NYTimes, DW, Al Jazeera, VOA, and Bloomberg all consider this important. A precedent setting decision by a supreme court of a nation is usually a good candidate for ITN. Some times nazel-gazing is unavoidable, if everyone is admiring our navel as well. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 12:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support certainly notable and relevant for this platform.--MaoGo (talk) 12:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose same reason as last time, this is likely to be a one-off news event with no follow up. Banedon (talk) 13:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support. This is not a Misplaced Pages issue, this is a free speech issue in Turkey. It was notable that the court ruling was made, and also notable that the government complied, given that Turkey is not known for free speech decisions like this one. 331dot (talk) 13:04, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Navel gazing and previously rejected. This is not the whole of the Internet aka China's free speech problem, but one website. Ask if this would have support if instead of Misplaced Pages it was Google or the New York Times or any other single website. Way too much importance on this being about Misplaced Pages here. --Masem (t) 13:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  Certainly yes if Google was blocked/unblocked. No for the NYTimes. You underestimate the impact of Misplaced Pages.org. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 14:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  I completely understand we are editing on wikipedia.org, so any story with Misplaced Pages in it may seem of much higher importance. But it is at the end of the day just another website, not the entire Internet. I'm trying to consider how important this story is without placing any special value on WP beyond being an online encyclopedia anyone can edit, and to that point, it is just effectively a wiki. May be the world's most important wiki, yes, but in considering this type of story for ITN, that doesn't give it any more special weight. --Masem (t) 15:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  I would have the same opinion if it was Facebook, Amazon, or Twitter. Are you telling me that if China blocked Amazon tomorrow that would not be major news worthy of ITN? People are these days intricately connected to the internet. Severing/restoring access to a major part of it has far reaching consequences. Even in the most humble of estimates, Misplaced Pages has far reaching impact. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 15:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, its just one website, not the internet. But it were the case of, for example, Turkey dropping a whole firewall to non-Turkey websites, or China deciding to lift its own firewall, that would be major news as that is definitely a free speech issue either way. Lacking access to one website is not the end of the day. --Masem (t) 15:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Strongly support because it is free speech issue in a country, not only Misplaced Pages itself. It is notable to posted. A previous ITN was opposed because only Court decision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.137.188.124 (talk) 13:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per C&C. A major story involving Misplaced Pages would be of higher interest to Misplaced Pages's audience anyway. -- Tavix 15:09, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support – A significant development for freedom of information. The fact that it's Misplaced Pages is not relevant to the basic issue. – Sca (talk) 15:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

PS: French and German Wikis feature it in their ITN sections. – Sca (talk) 15:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Without prejudice to the rest of your argument, what other Wikipedias do has no bearing on what the English Misplaced Pages ought to do. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 19:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

No website is an island, entire of itself. – Sca (talk) 15:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - Navel gazing for sure. But even if it was "Number one ranked site Google unblocked in Turkey" it would not merit front page news. Also, it was not a "significant development for the freedom of information." I was in Turkey multiple times during the "block" and it was an open secret that Misplaced Pages was available on numerous mobile networks and the block was mostly on landlines/wired networks. -- Fuzheado | Talk 15:43, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per Sca. Far more important than the Boat Race. Gamaliel (talk) 15:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

More important than the darts championship, too. – Sca (talk) 16:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Or college football.--WaltCip (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Is that a 'support' vote? – Sca (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support: This is not an event just for Turkey; Italian Misplaced Pages supported lifting the ban from their edition. There was a #WeMissTurkey campaign online that has been attended by most wikipedians worldwide.--Joseph (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
  • That makes it seem even more like navel gazing, tbh. While it's certainly big news for the WMF and Wikipedians, that doesn't show out-of-Misplaced Pages significance. We didn't post Framgate on ITN, for example. (Not that I don't think Misplaced Pages isn't a big deal in the real world; I have tried to put Misplaced Pages's founding on the January 15 OTD and was thereby introduced to the concept of navel gazing, but not everything Misplaced Pages is newsworthy.) – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 19:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
    • I don't think Framgate is a valid comparison. It wasn't headline news in more than a dozen major English-language news outlets and it didn't require a major constitutional court decision on free speech rights.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 23:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - per SCA. It was definitely a freedom of information issue that was resolved. OctaviusSlockpit (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per Sca. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:55, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - as much as we take an interest in internet freedom, this is at heart a local domestic story, and there are likely to be many countries around the world that impose or lift restrictions on any website or another at any time or another. The fact that it's Misplaced Pages shouldn't sway an objective judgement.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

"Please do not oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." 331dot (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Masem. They make a compelling argument. PackMecEng (talk) 19:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support I think readers will find this of interest. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:45, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per above. Davey2116 (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - this news has been all over the worlds media. also per established news sources. BabbaQ (talk) 22:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per C&C. Substantial coverage in reliable sources & it was a notable ruling by their top constitutional courts that reversed the ban. Notability is established through coverage in sources, and coverage is not absent. The fact that the website involved is the one we're using is not a factor. To respond to Masem's hypothetical, of course I'd support the nomination if Misplaced Pages was swapped out with Google, as it's the #1 website in Turkey (and by extension the world), but I would not support if it was swapped out with the NYT because it doesn't even register in the top 50 websites by traffic. Misplaced Pages does, and it surpasses websites like Yahoo and Amazon. Combine that with the landmark court ruling on free speech online & the sea of English-language outlets covering it and I see no reason to oppose other than the fear of being accused of navel gazing  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 23:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Would like the article to be more expanded regarding the impact that unblocking Misplaced Pages will have on censorship in Turkey in general, connecting this to a wider context. Some reactions to the unblocking would also be useful: is there pushback from the government? IMO that would help with my concerns about navel gazing, and I'm willing to reconsider my position if the article is suitable expanded. Spencer 02:22, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Definitely worth posting, this is not just about Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia issue, it is about freedom of information access in general. The Verge noted here that this is the "tightest Misplaced Pages ban in the world" as apparently it was the entire domain they blocked. Lifting the ban after this lengthy period is quite important, and yes more important than many niche topics that we post here. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:27, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose not notable and self-referential. -- Rockstonetalk to me! 05:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Of absolutely no international significance. Mark Schierbecker (talk) 06:31, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Please consider 331dot's reply to Amakuru. The fact that the story received significant coverage in English-language outlets is itself demonstration of notability outside of Turkey.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 08:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support This is about freedom of information and Misplaced Pages is accidentally the subject of the whole story. The block being lifted after it was ruled unconstitutional in a large country like Turkey is a major news.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:08, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per navel gazing; it's one website in one country. Other websites and other counties is other stuff. ——SN54129 08:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

  I want to reply you that "Please do not oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.137.168.126 (talk) 08:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

No website is an island, entire of itself. – Sca (talk) 16:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Although there is rough consensus to post this, the article is not properly updated yet, as other editors have pointed out — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Navel gazing. Remember when Turkey banned Twitter, then eventually lifted it because the ban was found illegal? Probably not. It had no significant effect, much like this probably won't, and it definitely wasn't worth posting on ITN. Unless we plan to give a blurb to when Turkey decides to kill Pornhub for a few months. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:53, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) Trump impeachment

• Nominated by Banedon (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: With the impeachment articles delivered to the Senate, we can expect this to be in the news for a while. Banedon (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support in the news, quality article being updated with "new, pertinent information", ticks the actual boxes. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support Nom makes the clear case for this inclusion. Davey2116 (talk) 01:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment This ITN Needs at least one reference to be nominated in ongoing. I oppose to posted this article to ongoing this week but i would support it for next week. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.137.188.124 (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@Banedon: since this is your nom, would you kindly copy/paste one of the myriad of high quality current references in the actual target article and add it to this nom? Also, thanks for nominating. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't own noms. Anyone can edit the nomination (I notice WaltClip has already done so). Banedon (talk) 02:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support This is a highly consequential ongoing event subject to significant global media attention. Meets all criteria for inclusion. WMSR (talk) 03:07, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  WMSR, highly inconsequential from now on. Republicans are in majority and as they have stated, they are not convicting their president. So other than political drama, you are not getting anything DBigXrayᗙ 07:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Weak support It would be better if he gets removed, but there's no reason we can't have both. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support There are procedural steps ahead this week (starting with today's impeachment manager and sending the articles updates) and the trial itself is set to start on Tuesday. No reason not to post it now, though I wouldn't say anything if it isn't posted until Tuesday. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support given that now the circus shifts from one house to the other. --Masem (t) 06:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose we should ignore minor inconsequential events such as the case moving from House to Senate. as per Business insider senate could bring it for hearing on 21 thereafter it will have to be seen when it gets next major updates. Also everyone knows Senate Republicans are not going to vote support, so Trump is not getting impeached convicted. So I cannot see the impact of this going forward. DBigXrayᗙ 07:07, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Trump is already impeached. The Senate will decide if there is enough to convict him on the terms of impeachment. Even if the Senate votes not to convict, that is still news - it would be the same as a major court case ending with an innocent verdict. --Masem (t) 07:17, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

    Masem, thanks for correction. As a non American I may have wrongly used few terms. I am talking about the (1)"relevant impact" and (2) the schedule of major events. When is the senate going to vote? Not within a week. The impeachment news was already posted. As of now, all I see is, some signed papers were moved with pomp and show, from one chamber to another. --DBigXrayᗙ 09:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Weak oppose While this is one of the more major events in the process, there's also about a million steps in said process. Ongoing would be a better option in my opinion, but I wouldn't complain if this was posted. -- a lad insane (Channel 2) 07:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Posted to ongoing — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Post-posting comment – A pretty obvious 'must' – even though ultimately the Demos won't prevail. – Sca (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Post Posting Support It's back in the news and will be for a while. Ongoing is where this belongs until the trial wraps up. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support because it is a major political event, and since the trial has started according to the constitution, it is in the news, and should be until the senate delivers the verdict, officially closing the trial. Minecrafter0271 (talk) 18:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Ongoing only - Oppose blurb until the impeachment process is concluded. That is the time to post a blurb. Mjroots (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• We now have a new article for the trial: Impeachment trial of Donald Trump. Can we update the link to this page? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  Updated link — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support, but for next week I also want to replace the Impeachment of Donald Trump to Impeachment trial of Donald Trump with more specific in ongoing section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.137.188.124 (talk) 21:35, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree that's likely the better target article. Banedon (talk) 02:23, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

RD: Christopher Tolkien

• Nominated by Jamez42 (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: British editor, third son of the author J. R. R. Tolkien and editor of much of his father's posthumously published work. Jamez42 (talk) 20:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose for now too much of it is uncited. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose far too soon for use of "fair use" image. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 14:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose unless improved while the topic itself is worth it, the article itself isn't that great. Flalf (talk) 16:28, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose until the article is significantly improved This article is missing several citations and ISBNs. ―Susmuffin  19:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

January 15

Russian government resigns

• Nominated by Juxlos (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Top breaking news on multiple outlets. For sources see DW, Russia Today. Juxlos (talk) 14:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. The first bolded article choice has a very short three sentence update which provides no context for the resignation, it merely confirms that it happened. The second bolded article contains even less; a single uncited 8-word sentence. The rest of the article hasn't even been updated to reflect the changes. Some significant work would need to be done on either article before this is ready to be posted to the main page. --Jayron32 14:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Very little happens in the Russian government without Putin's OK. According to CNN the government resigned "after Putin proposed constitutional amendments that would weaken his successor and shift power to the prime minister and parliament". Sounds like he is getting ready to be PM again so he can keep running the show. 331dot (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Putin is president, not prime minister, and "weaken his successor" (i.e. weaken the future president) means Putin is giving up power. Banedon (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Bandeon Putin is referring to his successor as President. Putin is making the PM job more powerful so he can go back to it in 2024 when his presidential term is up. (He's done this once already) I'm sure the changes he wants will be conveniently timed to take effect in 2024. 331dot (talk) 23:00, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

If Putin were a Misplaced Pages editor, I'd say you were assuming bad faith. Banedon (talk) 23:12, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support in principle, important event, but articles may need improvement. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support on notability but prefer that we have an article about the government resignation explaining in more detail what led up to it and what the immediate aftermath is (e.g. who will succeed him? we may not know today, but it would be good to have an article to put that information once the story develops further)  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 17:11, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support in principle but I would want to see in the blurb why. According to CNBC it was to allow for Putin to make sweeping constitutional changes. This might be one to give it a few hours or a day to know exactly where Putin is going with this. --Masem (t) 17:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support in principle per Masem. We need to focus more on Putin consolidating his own power in this. That's the main point of the story. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support, but not the current blurb - Let's not pull the wool over our own eyes. The blurb should reflect the actual nature of this power transition, which is to shift power back to Putin.--WaltCip (talk) 17:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support alternative blurb--Abutalub (talk) 17:59, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Note: Has anyone who wants to post this blurb done anything to fix the problems already noted in the text of the bolded articles? --Jayron32 19:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose on quality. No news is so important as to override quality concerns on BLPs. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

  @Coffeeandcrumbs: which article is not up to scratch? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:29, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

  MSGJ, none of them but I am more picky than most. Mikhail Mishustin is the worst of all. Putin has up to 8 tags. Medvedev has about 8 to 13 citations needed --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

  Thanks for clarifying. There are some many blurbs proposed, I'm not sure which article we are discussing anymore. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Weak oppose it is a substantial change and Russia is a great power, but it's internal to Russia and neither of the two targets right now are directly related to the constitutional changes. Banedon (talk) 19:44, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

  Banedon, Putin's machinations clearly extend beyond the borders of Russia. Not that that is required by ITN anyway. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support in principle. The story is the resignation of nothing but the Russian government and it's clearly in the news everywhere.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support in principle, per above. But both articles have cn tags, and it'd be preferable to have an article about the resignation. Davey2116 (talk) 21:56, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose not even the top story on BBC. Wait to see what the consequences are. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 22:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for now; Putin is the real power in Russia so Medvedev losing his position as Prime Minister means little in the grand scheme of things. However, news in coming days should tell us the significance of this move, and eventually we may blurb that. NorthernFalcon (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose It is not significant news for me. Even President putin Announce his resignation, It is not really event important for me. A more important event like this need to include English-speaking country like US or UK. But this event only include single country for example Russia. Is this event related to religion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.137.188.124 (talk) 00:18, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  "Not important" to you does not necessarily mean that it's not notable... we appeal to a worldwide audience. | abequinn 00:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  Putin is also the head of government of the U.S. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support. This is an important development in geopolitics and is all over the news. It is important to cover on Misplaced Pages. BirdValiant (talk) 04:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Clearly an event with impact. Unlike papers being moved with pomp and show, from one chamber to another. --DBigXrayᗙ 09:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Yea!! Take that, American editors!--WaltCip (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support. This is a major shake-up in one of the most important governments, and has been widely reported. -- Tavix 15:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I still feel the provided blurbs are not getting the whole story, but then again, I don't think western sources know the whole story yet. Fingers are pointed at Putin, but there's nothing clear that Putin directed this or is jumping on it. If we really don't have an idea on why this happened, then AltII is the best to use to post. --Masem (t) 15:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support – From what I've read Gospodin Putin appears to be maneuvering himself into a position of Nachalnik (boss) for Life. In the long term, this may be more significant than the U.S. House passing the impeachment articles, which unlike the surprising Russian changes was long expected anyway. – Sca (talk) 15:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support pbp 23:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support, with a preference for alt blurb 2. A significant political development for Riussia, both as a change of government and in terms of adjacent constitutional changes. Nsk92 (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Administrator note there is now sufficient support to post this item, but we are waiting for improvements to the quality and updates on the relevant articles — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment – Second-day reading re Putin's aims: AP, Guardian. – Sca (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

RD: Rocky Johnson

• Nominated by GhostOfDanGurney (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Was a prominent professional wrestler in the 1970's, as well as the father of one of the most successful actors in the world. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 13:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Work needed on referencing.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose under-referenced for BLP. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 14:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Even if the existing parts were cited and corrected, the majority of his career would be conspicuously absent. We can host a reflection of WWE revisionist history, but shouldn't promote it. Even a non-fan can look at the Championships section and wonder what the hell he did to deserve such recognition. Sadly, reliable sources continue to tow the company line, and he's doomed to be remembered as half of an objectively shitty "black team" instead of a guy who got over everywhere with everyone. For now, I mean; there'll be a docudrama someday, much too late for RD. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:01, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

January 14

RD: Liang Jun (tractor driver)

• Updated and nominated by Kingsif (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Most notable as China's first female tractor driver (both pre- and post- Communist revolution), but also a national politician for many years. Kingsif (talk) 00:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support well referenced from BBC despite short. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.137.188.124 (talk) 03:44, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• @Admins willing to post ITN: I think this is ready. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 11:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) Microsoft ends support of Windows 7

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Nominated by Masem (talk · give credit)

• Oppose While I used to have Win 7 (and still use Classic Shell to avoid the outlandish menu design of Win 10), this was expectable sooner or later, just like with previous MS versions superseded by newer ones. Besides, Win 7 will remain functionable without security updates (albeit more vulnerable), just like previous versions. Nostalgia isn't that easy to kill. Brandmeister 20:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose good faith nom. Routine business news. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Ad Orientem. Products get discontinued all the time, and Microsoft has been known for buggy software since at least Internet Explorer 6 (I know it's just a meme/running gag that derives a lot from its dominant position, but still). – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Appreciate the good faith test here. But really, "McDonald's ends support for the Happy Meal"? Sorry. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
  • There is more an argument that the end of Win7 support will increase security risks due to the large # of computers still running the system. McD killing the Happy Meal is nowhere close a major security problem. I normally agree that the end of a product line is rarely ITN news, but the ubiquity of computers is important here. --Masem (t) 02:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
    • With that argument I get the feeling that this would violate at least the spirit of WP:NOT (although I can't put my finger on the exact shortcut - NOTGUIDE, maybe?); while it would be useful as a public service, doing so is not Misplaced Pages's job. This feels like an issue of PC World rather than a genuinely newsworthy event such as scientists dating the oldest solid material on Earth, for example. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 06:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support pointlessly I know but there is still significant usage of Win7/2k8 so the end of security updates has a good deal of risk. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:03, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. That millions of users have not purchased a newer version of a product, putting themselves at risk of viruses/hacking, doesn't seem all that unusual. If Windows itself was being discontinued, that would merit posting, but Windows still exists. 331dot (talk) 21:19, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support the number of people using Windows 7 probably exceeds the population of quite a few countries. If we post news related to those countries, why wouldn't we post this? Banedon (talk) 00:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support Sounds like big news to me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Martinevans. I must have missed the blurb we ran last year when MS ended all support for XP. Daniel Case (talk) 04:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Last I saw was here. Though it does not seem like it was actually posted for some reason. PackMecEng (talk) 05:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose, publicity stunt by filthy megacorporation. It is suspected that they will continue support for some time. Abductive (reasoning) 05:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Important new for the second most used OS currently out there. PackMecEng (talk) 05:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose all the speculation as to what might happen now is pure WP:CRYSTAL so post when it becomes an actual issue. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 09:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – per Martinevans, TRM. It had a 10-year run. – Sca (talk) 14:01, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) Hong Kong protests

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Nominated by Banedon (talk · give credit)

• Oppose It may be ongoing, and the subarticles may be getting updates, but it has lost its place as a widely covered event that would make it appropriate for ongoing. It's like the impeaching stuff - its clearly still ongoing but the noise in the media right now about it is only a buzz and not major, so it would not be appropriate to be listed at Ongoing. We're looking for ongoing events where there are significant changes or updates on a near-daily basis that get broad media coverage. --Masem (t) 01:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose the last significant protest was Jan 1 with about 60k people, and oppose to featuring a "List of" article on the main page. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - There is a stronger case to post the protests in Iran than in Hong Kong; at least the former is in the news.--WaltCip (talk) 02:23, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose In the last 50 edits, going back to 10 Jan (4 days), the only new material relates to events in November and October, a couple of sentences about protestors fleeing to Taiwan, and accusations of CIA involvement. The alternative "List of..." article is very much police blotter. I think the best route for this event is to wait for a genuinely notable event as a blurb.130.233.2.197 (talk) 07:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. There does not appear to be enough recently added material, nor evidence that this is an article which is receiving regular updates, to consider this for ongoing. --Jayron32 14:46, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 15:06, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose mostly per Masem. I feel as though this article is either nominated to be added to Ongoing or removed from Ongoing every other week... ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 16:25, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) Oldest solid material on Earth discovered

• Nominated by TenorTwelve (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Research was done on a meteorite found in 1969 and recent findings are determining it the oldest solid material ever found on earth. It was formed before the Sun was formed. I'm not exactly sure if the cosmic dust page should be featured or presolar grains page or both. I'm also not sure whether or not Oldest dated rocks would be appropriate. Does this count as a rock? Certainly the pages have not been updated at this time. I'm not an expert on this subject so I don't know to what extent this is conclusive but it seemed significant to me. I think this is the Murchison meteorite??? If a page has not been created for this, it might warrant one. I'm also not sure on the terminology whether it be stardust, presolar grains, or presolar stardust grains. Should we mention "older than the sun" anywhere in it? Please feel free to rewrite the blurb if necessary. I'm still new at writing blurbs for ITNR TenorTwelve (talk) 01:31, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Just noting this is based on a paper from Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences so peer-review is there. --Masem (t) 01:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose with regret. The article has not been updated. Indeed as far as I can tell it has not been edited in months, so we don't really have anything on the subject of the blurb in the linked article. Also there are some fairly significant gaps in referencing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:39, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support contingent on article update. Strong science news but, as Ad Orientem says, the update needs to be there.--WaltCip (talk) 02:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I would hate to see this miss out because nobody could be bothered updating the article. I'll try to myself, but anyone else could too, rather than pushing this item away while saying it hasn't been updated. HiLo48 (talk) 05:39, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Murchison meteorite has now been updated with this news. I can't see what else is needed before posting it. HiLo48 (talk) 06:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Altblurb (note that I have modified and truncated the many blurbs in the original nomination). Article is well written and updated. I chose to link pre-solar grains in the blurb instead of stardust, because that would be the most accurate description of the material (although the stardust page is much better overall). Exciting and fascinating find, and the article about the meterorite itself and actually a good portal to other encyclopedic subjects.130.233.2.197 (talk) 07:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - interesting and newsworthy. Article about subject seems ready for posting.BabbaQ (talk) 07:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support when updated, as there is one-sentence update at the moment. --Tone 08:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

  So, what do you want to see, and what's stopping you putting it there? This nomination isn't owned by anyone. HiLo48 (talk) 09:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

  Agree with Tone; the update is not sufficient yet. I heard on the news some details about how they extracted the particles from the meteorite - that would be appropriate. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

  So why aren't you adding it? HiLo48 (talk) 17:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

  On the other hand, why aren't you?--WaltCip (talk) 17:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

  Because it wasn't me who "heard (it) on the news". HiLo48 (talk) 22:29, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not keen on the wording "older than 5-7 billion years old". Either it is "older than 5 billion years old", or it is simply "5-7 billion years old". The article says "7 billion years old" so I'm not sure where the 5 came from? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for original blurb but Support for Altblurb I and II this sentence needs to update as well for many reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.42.11 (talk) 14:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support This is big news. Alternative blurb preferred. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:07, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support a blurb that contains the word "presolar" or something to that effect so people don't get confused that it's older than the Earth. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - agree with those in support above - also - relevant refs per my edit on "Oldest dated rocks"; related edit on "Murchison meteorite" and related edit on "2020 in science" - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Weisberger, Mindy (13 January 2020). "7 Billion-Year-Old Stardust Is Oldest Material Found on Earth - Some of these ancient grains are billions of years older than our sun". Live Science. Retrieved 13 January 2020.
2. Heck, Philipp R.; et al. (13 January 2020). "Lifetimes of interstellar dust from cosmic ray exposure ages of presolar silicon carbide". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. doi:10.1073/pnas.1904573117. Retrieved 13 January 2020.

• Murchison meteorite article only has the announcement in the lede and not the body, and the article on presolar grains needs more references. Stephen 01:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
  • @Stephen: Thank you for your comment -  Done - relevant text and refs have now been added to the body of the "Murchison meteorite" article - Thanks again - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Posted Stephen 04:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Assume next week we'll have an article titled "Youngest solid material on Earth discovered." – Sca (talk) 14:05, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

January 13

RD: Jean Delumeau

• Nominated by Miraclepine (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: The French historian. Expanded from frwiki article but needs a little tidying. ミラP 15:35, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Looks good to post — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Weak oppose Would like to see more coverage about what he wrote about. Right now it reads like a resume/CV in prose format listing out his various positions and awards. Spencer 02:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) 2020 College Football Playoff National Championship

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Nominated by Muboshgu (talk · give credit)
• Updated by PCN02WPS (talk · give credit) and Dmoore5556 (talk · give credit)

• Oppose as in past years. Gridiron football has a very limited appeal (principally NA), and we already cover the most significant event in that (The Super Bowl). Additionally, college footage is equivalent to minor league/amateur sports, which we should not post unless it is like the Boat Race, the most significant event in that sport. Additionally, at least with the NCAA basketball, there's a more proper tourney with multiple brackets and more proper competition, compared to just taking the top 4 coach-ranked teams and doing a short 2 round playoff. --Masem (t) 05:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Battle of the Tigers. From Deep South states named after major kings. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support – I think putting an event restricted to two measly schools above a competition, drawn from more than 100 schools that attract tens of thousands of fans to games, is ridiculous. This championship is the culmination of a major league even if the NCAA does not like to admit it for their own greedy reasons. The fan base is huge. The news coverage astronomical. Why should we kowtow to the same bias. College Football has different rules. We have 3 events for rugby league and 3 events for rugby union. Why, pray tell, is gridiron football limited to a single event? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Because posting multiple events for a single sport in a single country would be overkill? Would you support including the AFL Grand Final and the VFL Grand Final at ITN? The latter is the major feeder competition for another single nation sport. HiLo48 (talk) 09:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

If their fan base was as big and their notability as high, then yes. "The 2019 championship drew 25.28 million viewers". Compare that to 2.419 million for AFL Grand Final and likely even fewer for the VFL Grand Final. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

An approach of looking at pure numbers would be a guaranteed way of having US events dominate ITN. Do we want that? HiLo48 (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it would probably work the other way. Any English Premiership football match broadcasted internationally would exceed 25m easily. Indeed, Manchester United v Wolves tonight in the FA Cup will do. This being posted has opened the gates to a flood of other non ITNR nominations (just in the UK - FA Cup Final, Carabao Cup Final, Championship play-off final, Cricket County Championship, T20 final, Rugby Union Premiership, etc etc) which will probably get rejected by American editors and thus prove our systemic bias. Black Kite (talk) 19:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

True. HiLo48 (talk) 00:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per Masem. Too much has been said in the past so it's annoying to repeat it once again. Those trying to draw an argument from the fact that we regularly post the Boat Race should better question its WP:ITN/R status if they feel so inclined.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom, who puts it well. -- Tavix 09:13, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support. A case can be made that more people follow collegiate football than the NFL; the largest capacity stadiums in the US are mostly college stadiums (Michigan Stadium). This is a big deal for many people. 331dot (talk) 09:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per Masem, and further; the reason the NCAA game gets posted is because basketball is a far more global sport and therefore it gets more international coverage. Here is the UK I can find BBC stories about most year's NCAA finals, but if I search the site for college football, all I get is stories about Donald Trump feeding people burgers at the White House after last year's game - nothing about the actual games. Black Kite (talk) 10:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Here in England, our most popular sport is association football. The Premier League is in WP:ITN/R, but we don't post any other English competitions, such as the FA Cup - still in itself a big deal domestically. In fact only two other national leagues, those of Spain and Germany, are in that list. As such, and per HiLo above, given that we already post the top competition in US American football, it would be overkill to post a second one. I get that this is a big deal in America, nobody's denying that, but so are many other things within their respective countries and we don't want to inundate ITN with endless sporting events.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per Masem & the others. This is an old issue. Suggest snow. – Sca (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Article quality is quite good, and reliable news sources are covering the story at a significant level. Checks all of the boxes. --Jayron32 14:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - Not that I think consensus will develop in favor of posting, but I think C&C makes good points here. To say this should not be posted because it is a college sport is directly contradicted by the fact that we post NCAA basketball tourney results. There is only one other American football related event we post, so two doesn't seem like overkill. Additionally, to say that this is only important in North America directly contradicts ITN's general criteria: arguing that something should or should not be posted, solely because of where the event happened, or who might be "interested" in it because of its location, are not usually met with concurrence from the community. ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 16:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I find posts like that unhelpful. Nobody is saying this should not be posted because it is a college sport, so that's a straw man argument. And I have already addressed the issue of two items on the one sport from one country. Would you support two items on Australian football every year? Even as an Australian, I wouldn't. So please don't both ignore what others have said, and then write as if they've said something they haven't. That's just confrontational. HiLo48 (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

@HiLo48: actually, I would be very happy to see both the AFL and the AFLW Grand Finals make ITN. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

A blind chicken actually found the feed :O - and I agree, ITN should not be a confrontational place or a place to let personal preferences cloud what is and is not appropriate for the front page. MPJ-DK (talk) 17:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

First, Masem references this being a college sport (coupled with other reasons) as a reason to not post: college footage is equivalent to minor league/amateur sports, which we should not post unless it is like the Boat Race, the most significant event in that sport. Second, I was responding to the claim that Gridiron football has a very limited appeal (principally NA), again by Masem (nothing against you here Masem!), when I brought up the quote regarding the fact that something appealing only to a certain area was not a reason to oppose posting. I was directly responding to points someone gave as to not post this - one that others agreed with. Finally, stating Would you support two items on Australian football every year? is not a valid way to address the issue of two sports for one country. We could spend endless days asking hypotheticals on ITN noms. I though my post was indeed helpful, and I put time into it, making sure I didn't both ignore what others have said, and then write as if they've said something they haven't. I try very hard not to be confrontational on here, but I feel I must stand up for myself in this case. ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 17:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

My argument related to "gridiron only of interest to NA" is not that we should never cover gridiron football, but that we should respect the fact that other sports have much more dominate/global interest like association football, rugby, and cricket, so they reasonably have multiple events that we include as ITRN, while a single-nation sport like gridiron, even if having some of the highest viewership overall, should still be limited in how much we cover it. Which is reasonable with the Super Bowl, but not the non-professional events like this game. --Masem (t) 17:59, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. On that basis, you could even argue that events like the Championship play-off final, despite being at second-tier level, should be posted here, given that it's a one-off game with an attendance of 85,000, a worldwide audience in the many millions, and covered in multinational media. It's a slippery slope, and I don't think we'd do ourselves any favours by proceeding down it. Consider also that many popular sports (i.e. Kabaddi) don't have any ITN/R entries... Black Kite (talk) 19:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support In the news and a quality article. I'm not sure why we have to restrict ourselves to one article per sport per country. I will support this year's FA Cup Final being posted if it is of sufficient quality.-- P-K3 (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support posting and linking to a good quality article. We can certainly afford to less picky about "significance" on ITN — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support; massive event that certainly deserves its place; the national championship draws millions of fans and is covered by loads of independent, reliable newsmedia sources. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Posted. Consensus (while not unanimous) favors posting; article is in good shape. Spencer 05:15, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm wondering if the first link should be American football and not gridiron, considering that is the more relevant article. (it's also a GA if that has any bearing). —GFOLEY FOUR!— 05:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Fixed It's the American (more popular) version.—Bagumba (talk) 06:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
• Post-posting oppose & Pull, not significant enough to merit a blurb. Doesn't rise to the level of ITN. 39.50.160.68 (talk) 17:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Please go into more detail about your reason and what the "level of ITN" is. 331dot (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to say pull, but see my comment above in reply to HiLo48. Black Kite (talk) 23:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree completely, but let's not shut the door AFTER adding 6 rugby, 4 cricket and who knows how many footie games. A common sense solution would be to pick ONE event from each code (we can debate how distinct a code has to be, but why not post Kabaddi if the quality is there?). We already have all changes to heads of state as ITNR, even though everyone knows some are more significant than others. The Boat Race is fine. NBA Finals are in, "FIBA" (whatever the hell that is) is out. FIFA WC is in, Premier League is out. British Open in, Masters out. Snooker, Darts, Sand-castle building... they all get one, but they still have to have the quality. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - @Spencer: there is no consensus to post this. Please pull immediately. Realistically, for this to be considered it should be debated for an entry at WP:ITN/R, that's the place to determine if recurring events are posted, with a proper debate, not through local consensus year-by-year. I don't see anything about this year's event that elevates it above other years and would create an exception.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  Consensus can change. It used to be everything was sports, sports, sports. Now we have a lot of politics, diplomatic intrigue, and tragedy. There is nothing wrong with letting a few more sports slip through. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 11:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  Yeah, but now this'll come back again next year and everyone will point to this posting and say that's a precedent. So it ends up in ITN/R by the back door. That's not how it's supposed to work. You might be right that this event is notable enough, but it should be ascertained by the correct means, not through this razor-thin "consensus" at an individual year's discussion, with almost as many opposes as supports.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:21, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  No, this is how it is supposed to work. ITN/R is for recurring items that have had a track record of being posted - it would be nonsensical to have a discussion about an event that has never been posted in the regular way.-- P-K3 (talk) 16:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

  There is zero requirement that a recurring event needs to be listed at ITN/R to be able to qualify as an ITN/C candidate, as long as the ITNC is focused only on the single instance of that recurring event. --Masem (t) 16:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Keep listed. Consensus here is clear and I'm happy and admin finally had the balls to post this. Let's all move on and focus on getting new items on the page rather than whinging this made it. Calidum 15:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
• Keep listed per Calidum Gamaliel (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) Ongoing Removal: Citizenship Amendment Act protests

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Oppose Some cleanup is needed, to be sure, but I see nothing demanding immediate removal. Going through the references section, I can see new information has been added up through today, with numerous sources being added yesterday, over half a dozen, with similar numbers of sources to each of the preceding days. This is still an actively-edited article. --Jayron32 16:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The claim that "updates for the article are sporadic and inadequate" is simply not true. This is still an actively-edited article, and an ongoing event. Please see these links from today --DBigXrayᗙ 16:23, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Still seeing substantive additions. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The issue is still making headlines in India. More updates are expected in coming days. Abishe (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment this happens every time we try to remove something from ongoing. It doesn't matter if the story is still in the news, the article updates are what matters and ref improvements are not "new, pertinent information". At least Jayron read the criteria even if we disagree. --LaserLegs (talk) 18:02, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  LaserLegs, Did you raise this concern on the article talk page ? If not, then may be next time you should raise it on the talk page first. That may prevent "this" from happening every time you try to remove something from ongoing. Update:I have notified the article contributors about this thread.--DBigXrayᗙ 20:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  Of course I read them. I'm pretty sure I wrote them. --Jayron32 21:18, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  All I care about is the ITN box, that's it. If you don't want your pet project removed, just keep it updated per WP:ITN. Thanks for the WP:CANVAS we may as well snow close this nom now under an avalanche of opposes not informed by WP:ITN and I'll try again next week. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Is Misplaced Pages improvement your priority or removing perfectly valid items from ITN using bureaucracy ? If it is the latter, then you should seriously review your tactics, or else all such efforts will continue having the same fate, that it gets every time you try to remove something from ongoing. The comments above dont give an impression that there was much support for your proposal anyway. Finally, I think it is about time for you to familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification before you wrongly accuse someone of WP:CANVAS again. --DBigXrayᗙ 20:58, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - As per reasons given by others above. --I am not a Seahorse (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose "sporadic and inadequate" is a point of view. This is a ongoing protest and will continue for days to come, first Supreme Court hearing itself on 22nd. Some protest are going on continuously, various sections are still to be added. I can see updates on 13th Jan. I don't see any reason for such removal. Dey subrata (talk) 20:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) Pervez Musharraf

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Updated and nominated by DBigXray (talk · give credit)

• Support This is quite important as the judgement has been proven and declared invalid. Abishe (talk) 16:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Or perhaps the death sentence shouldn't have been posted in the first place and two wrongs don't make a right? Not saying that for sure, just playing devil's advocate. I will say that the entirety of the update as of this moment is "On 13 January 2020, the Lahore High Court annulled the death sentence." and since that doesn't even say why the annulled it, it's an insufficient update. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

   Fixed Muboshgu thanks for the review. I have added more updates DBigXrayᗙ 18:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per Muboshgu, was as insignificant then as now (except maybe for headline catching news). Gotitbro (talk) 20:33, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Trust the system we have for determining ITN-worthiness. We usually post major court case convictions/sentencing (which we did) and Supreme Court decisions. If this is appealed to the Supreme Court of Pakistan, we should post the decision of that court as it sets major precedent. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:46, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. So I'm not clear on this. Was his conviction tossed out, or just his death sentence? He was unlikely to be put to death(he is in another country and dying due to illness) but if his conviction was tossed, that seems notable to me. 331dot (talk) 01:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

  331dot, both his conviction and his death sentence was tossed out. and the special court that gave the previous verdict was judged as illegal. DBigXrayᗙ 10:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Of course the sentence was never going to be carried out, which was why it was silly of us to play along with the earlier publicity stunt. Let's not compound that error by acting like this is a shocking new development. GreatCaesarsGhost 01:10, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment If the sentencing by a lower court was assessed important enough to post, so should be the exoneration by a superior High Court (which holds higher importance). The news sites have all published it and rightly so. (see CNN, New York Times, BBC, Wall Street Journal, SCMP, Reuters, CBC, Deutsche Welle, ABC.au, Al Jazeera) Why are we posting the negative coverage but hiding the rectification of an illegal judgement. We are not here for hitjobs and we should be careful in not appearing as one. This is both unfair and hypocritical at a whole another level. Pinging participants of previous discussion. @Davey2116, Joseywales1961, Vegan Gypsy, Pawnkingthree, Störm, Saqib, and Lefcentreright:--DBigXrayᗙ 10:53, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - it was not a full-bench decision, and it will be challenged in Supreme Court who's special bench gave decision. We can't post every development. Störm (talk) 11:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Quote: A three-member full bench of the LHC, ..., delivered the unanimous verdict. User:Störm Please check. Also this is the final judgement of the high court. The case may never go to Supreme Court, moreover we should not be guessing the future but assessing the present.--DBigXrayᗙ 12:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – In practical terms lacks significance. – Sca (talk) 13:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. The death sentence should've never been posted in the first place. Nonstopmaximum (talk) 00:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Nonstopmaximum So ex-heads of state being sentenced to death, especially for actions related to their time in office, should not be posted? 331dot (talk) 00:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) Taal Volcano

• Nominated by Exec8 (talk · give credit)
• Created by Duckno (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Haveyouseenthisboy (talk · give credit) and MultiEditor (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Notable event as the volcano's proximity to populated areas and its eruptive history, it was designated a Decade Volcano, worthy of close study to prevent future natural disasters. Exec8 (talk) 00:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment that gigantic "The 1754 eruption" section needs to be trimmed before this goes anywhere near the main page. Few missing refs. Nolo on significance. --LaserLegs (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support but article should also link to 2020 Taal Volcano eruption instead. ITSQUIETUPTOWN.public • talk 03:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support: But the blurb needs to updated as well because can cause many people killed. This link should be linked to 2020 Taal Volcano eruption instead the Taal volcano itself — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.206.35.20 (talk) 07:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - Definitely for ITN. Article of eruption seems updated and ready.BabbaQ (talk) 09:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Altblurb2 added, which links to 2020 Taal Volcano eruption — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:23, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support with Altblurb2 linking to 2020 eruption Joseywales1961 (talk) 12:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment just wanted to say that this is the first time I've seen a GIF in ITN. Pretty cool! --Varavour (talk) 09:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Same, wow. Made me do a double-take. It's actually very visually pleasant seeing GIFs on the usually static front page. Sleath56 (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) Joseph Muscat and Robert Abela

• Nominated by Zugraga (talk · give credit)
• Created by Tsum60 (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Dans (talk · give credit), Cavewiki (talk · give credit) and Boud (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Notable event as Malta, an EU member, is rocked by a political crisis. A continuity candidate, Robert Abela, is to be sworn in as Prime Minister today, 13 January, at 3 pm (CET). --> Zugraga 10:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Article needs updating — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:25, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Alt 2 appears ready now and should be how we frame this item. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 13:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Weak oppose - Target article (Abela) has a cn-tag in the first line, though it is only for his birthday. Also the "Honours" section is completely blank ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 15:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Support now per changes. Thanks Xwejnusgozo! ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 19:48, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support. I also added a citation for the birthday, addressing the concerns of mike_gigs (talk · contribs). --Xwejnusgozo (talk) 15:23, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment CE'd the blurb. As a change in PM without a general election, the blurb should include notability criteria, in this case a link to the protests.130.233.2.197 (talk) 07:39, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Posted alt2. More comments needed on whether to include Daphne Caruana Galizia — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Post-posting support of ALT2. I don't think we need any extra detail in the blurb.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Post-posting: oppose ALT1, ALT2, support original or ALT3 (original would need fixing from ] to ] to avoid the redirect and retain the pipe). The name of the person replacing Muscat is much less significant than the fact that the executive head of a European Union member state has resigned because people close to him are on trial for the murder of a journalist, and there have been massive street protests and suspicions that he was involved in some way in the murder (for a prime minister to even just "give the green light" to a murder is surely a big news item). Boud (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
  • @MSGJ and Ad Orientem: ALT2 could be interpreted as a whitewash in comparison to recent news headlines about this event: Malta gets new prime minister amid outrage over journalist murder Al Jazeera English Malta gets new PM after reporter murder outcry The Standard (Kenya) Maltese PM steps down amid public pressure over murder of journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia Press Gazette Malta's new PM has only days to prove himself, says Andrew Caruana Galizia The Guardian (Andrew Caruana Galizia is the son of Daphne Caruana Galizia, who was assassinated). Could we please update correct to ALT3 unless there are objections? Boud (talk) 22:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC) (clarify comment Boud (talk) 23:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC))

@Boud: Sorry. We are not a news service. None of those headlines (which sound somewhat sensational) were posted here at ITN. Any change to the ALT3 would require consensus. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem: We are not a news service, agreed; but also, we don't (shouldn't) present information in a misleading way. Omitting context is one way of being misleading. I've struck the word "update" in my comment because that's misleading; I meant "correct". (Parenthesis: The protests article gives plenty of sourced evidence of the anger described in the headlines, though "anger" would be more neutral than "outcry" or "outrage" - agreed there). I don't see any arguments above in favour of removing the links to the protests article and the Caruana Galizia, apart from Amakuru's post-posting "I don't think" comment. In terms of consensus, 130.233.2.197 was in favour of including the protests article. I don't see any arguments presented here against ALT3. Boud (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

I did another strike in my comment to clarify that the newness of the headlines is irrelevant: what is relevant is that they describe the event in context, which we would do with ALT3 (or the original blurb). Boud (talk) 23:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Again, this needs to be resolved through WP:CONSENSUS. As an uninvolved admin, absent some serious breach of policy/guidelines, it would be inappropriate for me to unilaterally make substantive changes to the blurb. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough that you want to remain an uninvolved admin. @Zugraga, Coffeeandcrumbs, Mike gigs, Xwejnusgozo, and Amakuru: - Are there any objections to shifting to ALT3? Boud (talk) 01:59, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Only if we begin with Abela. I don't mind more context but the primary focus should be the appointment of a new head of government not the exit of the old. "​Robert Abela becomes Prime Minister of Malta following the resignation of Joseph Muscat in the wake of ...." --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 04:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Blurb updated. There seems to be a rough consensus to include details on the protest, but per C&C the focus should still be on the new PM, so I've amended it to the current wording of ALT0. Hope this is OK with everyone. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, that looks reasonable to me - thanks! Boud (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

January 12

(Posted) RD: Tony Garnett

• Nominated by Amakuru (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Bytelucas (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: TV and film producer, dies aged 83. Needs a few more cites, but will work on those this afternoon.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I've finished tidying up cites, think it's good to go now.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Yes I agree this looks ready.-- P-K3 (talk) 20:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Posted -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

RD: Kazuo Sakurada

• Updated and nominated by MPJ-DK (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Long time professional wrestler, worked extensively in Japan and North America during his carer MPJ-DK (talk) 03:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• More reliable source needed for his death. Also, can the personal life section be expanded a bit? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:30, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  Wrestling Observer Newsletter is a reliable source, the most reliable source of all pro wrestling news sites. I have not found anything on his personal life supported by reliable sources, only blogs and forum posts. MPJ-DK (talk) 14:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  • Slam Sports
  • Uproxx

  Sorry I'm not familiar with wrestling sources. I guess I was asking for mainstream sources, but if you say these are reliable then I'll accept that — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• No opposition, so  Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:33, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Paulo Gonçalves

• Nominated by Miraclepine (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: The motorracer. Could use a little copyediting and some extra Dakar Rally placements but good to go. ミラP 02:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Can you help to copyedit "During the 2020 edition, the engine started in the third stage, and it was even announced its withdrawal" because I have no idea what this means? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  @MSGJ: Done. ミラP 01:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• Awaiting further comments. This is looking good now, perhaps too much reliance on a single source though — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
• Weak oppose - per MSGJ above, needs a few more diverse sources. I think they're out there as his death is in the English-language news too.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:25, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• @Amakuru: I've added CNN and Guardian refs. ミラP 13:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Posted to RD - @Miraclepine: thanks for the updated refs, and I've added a couple more myself so it's good to do now. Posted.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Sir Roger Scruton

• Nominated by Ad Orientem (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Martinevans123 (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Well known conservative and traditionalist English political/social philosopher. Article is in good shape. Ad Orientem (talk) 19:50, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Weakest oppose the "selected" works section is unreferenced, the rest is probably GA-level. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 20:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Weak oppose there's also no prose update on his death, no mention of his 6-month battle with cancer. I'm finding sources for the works, but finding a single (e.g. British Library) listing for them all may be the way to go. Kingsif (talk) 21:44, 12 January 2020 (UTC) Support article in great shape, updated, very influential man in the UK in general and in world political philosophy. Has an SPS for his works in the main bio but since a google shows them very easily as his with a variety of other sources, seems fine, should be good to post. Kingsif (talk) 00:00, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@ Kingsif & The Rambling Man: I think the issues you raised have been addressed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:56, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support Updated and well referenced. If the works section is still a problem, it could be blanked except for the template, as there exists a sub-article for his works that readers could be directed towards. Hrodvarsson (talk) 05:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support: As arguably the greatest philosopher of our age, his passing should be marked. He was far more than a thinker and writer though: in Eastern Europe his work ensured that after Communism fell, there was an intellectual class ready to guide those lands into the new landscape without which there would have been anarchy. Hogweard (talk) 07:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Looks well sourced. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

January 11

RD: Stan Kirsch

• Nominated by skteosk (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: American actor and filmmaker. Article looks well-sourced, only query is size Skteosk (talk) 09:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose needs further referencing, marked as such. (Also, it's not a stub, more like a start class, updated accordingly). The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 09:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: La Parka II

• Updated and nominated by MPJ-DK (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Died today as a results of injuries he suffered during a match MPJ-DK (talk) 03:33, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support - Article looks fairly well referenced ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 04:27, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - looks good to go to me.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Per the above. And remember kids, don't try this at home... Lugnuts 17:53, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Posted to RD --valereee (talk) 19:36, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted and updated) Qaboos bin Said al Said

• Nominated by Sherenk1 (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: He was longest serving in Arab world, major role of mediating regional conflicts. Sherenk1 (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Note I have updated the nomination to reflect that this event is covered by ITNR as it involves a change in head of state. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support Article seems up to scratch. The death of the undisputedly most powerful figure in a country is certainly worth a blurb. EternalNomad (talk) 00:50, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support at least RD, indifferent towards blurb looks good enough. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:53, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - I personally see no reason as to why not. Article is ready.BabbaQ (talk) 00:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• No comment on article quality. Support a blurb especially when his successor is agreed/named in up to 3 days or so time, a combined blurb on the succession would be ITNR anyway. -- KTC (talk) 01:02, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support - RD is a no-brainer to me. I think he may "deserve" a blurb.--SirEdimon (talk) 01:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support The blurb can be updated when the successor is announced. Article is decent shape with referencing and is being updated. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC) -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support blurb Notable and article looks good.Johndavies837 (talk) 01:28, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Wait Is Qaboos bin Said al Said's religion is Islam and related to Saudi? I can support it if he refers his nationality because it is interested to me. Otherwise, I Support it for article's quality and it is notable. Separate article needs to explain this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.69.50.110 (talk) 01:30, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand. Why is his religion relevant? Johndavies837 (talk) 02:10, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

 Posted. El_C 02:16, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment The tense used in the blurb is unusual; I think we generally use present tense (i.e. "dies" or "dies aged 79"). EternalNomad (talk) 02:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done. I've also restructured the original blurb. El_C 02:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Possible to have his picture as well? Sherenk1 (talk) 02:34, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Post-posting support even aside from his status as the longest-serving ruler of the Arab world, he was the incumbent monarch of a sovereign country, so a blurb is appropriate.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 03:08, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - Can we add the new ruler: Haitham bin Tariq Al Said on the blurb. Sherenk1 (talk) 06:45, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

  That would be nice, but that article is still rather short. Hopefully it will be expanded now. What wording would you suggest? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

  See alt blurb above.—Bagumba (talk) 12:35, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Comment The ascension of Haitham bin Tariq Al Said is ITN/R, the death of the sitting head is not. --LaserLegs (talk) 11:13, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support succession update Haitham readable prose size is currently 1457, which I'll IAR for my personal requirement of matching DYK min requirememt of 1500.—Bagumba (talk) 12:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Blurb updated to alt to include succession. -- KTC (talk) 13:07, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted and reworded) 2020 Taiwanese presidential election

• Nominated by Abishe (talk · give credit)
• Updated by DBigXray (talk · give credit) and Spencer (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Taiwan is a small country but the elections were quite important as the incumbent President was against Chinese administration. Abishe (talk) 14:26, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. More prose is needed regarding the results of the election. Currently there is just one sentence stating who won. ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 15:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Support - Looks good now! ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 04:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support the alternative blurb. Concise and factual, and it is a notable news item. - Indefensible (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support important news. Thankyoubaby (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – For as long as I have been stalking ITN/C, we have required a summary-in-prose for the §Results. That section should have at least 3–4 sentences summarizing the outcome and citing sources like . --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:11, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

CnC I have added a basic 3 line summary there. Others are welcome to expand.--DBigXrayᗙ 00:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support Alt 1. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:21, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support added Alt blurb II --DBigXrayᗙ 00:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support Alt1 and marking ready; I added some additional information to the results section so it meets minimum standards. Spencer 01:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I think the legislative election should be mentioned as well since it is less predicted. Ythlev (talk) 02:56, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
  • While I agree that it should be mentioned, the related article needs some work before it's ready for the main page. Once it's updated, we can request an update to this blurb. A proposed blurb that would include it would be: "Tsai Ing-Wen (pictured) is re-elected President of Taiwan, and her party retains its majority in the Legislative Yuan." Otherwise, alt blurb I should be ready to go. Mount Patagonia (talk) 04:13, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Posted  — Amakuru (talk) 13:36, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Amakuru, can someone post the credits. --DBigXrayᗙ 13:44, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 13:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose and pull Taiwan is not a country --LaserLegs (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Whether Taiwan is a country or not does not take away from the existence of this election, nor its newsworthiness or effect on world affairs. 331dot (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, it might be of consideration if the nomination was nodded through on the basis of the WP:ITN/R for national elections. It doesn't look it was though, and I agree that as a de facto independent state and a significant player on the global stage, this is clearly worthy of posting.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

To pile on, I agree with both 331dot and Amakuru. – Ammarpad (talk) 17:25, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Further discussion on wording of blurb

• Tsai Ing-wen Her article says she is President of the Republic of China, but our blurb is to "President of Taiwan". Seems 1) inconsistent 2) weird not to link to the office if we are going to capitalize "President".—Bagumba (talk) 15:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  I've made "President" lowercase, and also added an "as" to the sentence, unless you think that's wrong.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  There's still the issue of whether we had a standard for national politics whether it's referred to as Republic of China (as her bio uses) or Taiwan.—Bagumba (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  Perhaps "In Taiwan, Tsai Ing-wen (pictured) is re-elected as President of the Republic of China." (also serves as an educating point of Taiwan/Republic of China)—Bagumba (talk) 16:44, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  You may want to tell President Tsai that she isn't President of Taiwan, as her own press office doesn't appear to be aware. (Pretty much the entire platform of the DPP is that Taiwan is an independent country and the "Republic of China" symbolism should be dropped. Misplaced Pages insisting on using Kuomintang terminology is roughly on a par with insisting we call Gerry Adams British.) ‑ Iridescent 17:15, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  The term "President of Taiwan" does not appear anywhere in the link you provided. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 14:00, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  Probably best to simply say "President of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" as is represented on official Taiwanese documents. The current construction appears amateur and partisan - like the work of someone who has not done their homework on Taiwan. Another suggestion entirely is to simply say she won the "2020 Taiwanese presidential elections" without actually specifying the office. But anything is better than this current line. And in response to the above, Tsai herself, in her victory speech, repeatedly makes reference to "Repubilc of China -- Taiwan". So while it is true that the DPP wants to drop "Chinese" symbols, she has not herself made this a priority, not nearly to the same extent as Chen Shui-bian anyway, and also pays lip service to the designation "ROC-Taiwan" during the debates and policy presentations. Colipon+(Talk) 17:47, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  @Iridescent: The link you provided says "Office of the President Republic of China (Taiwan)" at the very top. My only preference is that Main Page is consistent with the linked articles, however that is achieved. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  Oppose any change. The country is commonly called Taiwan, not the Republic of China (which may be a confusing term for many people if they're not familliar with the ROC/PRC distinction). It is unnecessary to mention that term at all in the blurb, and it certainly isn't an error.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

  De-capping can be interpreted as a form demoting importance. We are allowing POV to creep in, even if unintentional. We should use her official title or find a way to capitalize President as suggested below by Bagumba. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 13:55, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  Actually de-capping is simply part of Misplaced Pages guidelines, as indicated at MOS:JOBTITLES so it's not a question of demoting importance. We do it across the board, including at List of presidents of the United States and all related titles which use "president" as a common noun rather than as part of a title. And furthermore, we have long-standing convention of calling that country Taiwan. The linked event itself is titled the 2020 Taiwanese presidential election. I get that there are complications around the naming of the country and the political status re China, but really the current wording is exactly how we'd style any other presidential re-election. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 15:06, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  Amakuru, in this case, we have made two decisions to get here. First, we chose to ignore her official title because, I assume, we think the reader is stupid. Second, we chose to decap president even though it is not modified (i.e. preceded by "the") and not plural. Her title is "President of the Republic of China" and we should say so. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 15:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  Note that small p for smaller countries is a common occurrence at ITN. See Misplaced Pages:Main Page history/2013 March 17 where Xi Jinping got a capital P even when modified by "new". Sure MOS was different then but my point is still the same. We bend over backwards to capitalize major nations' titles but we can't be bother to make a few changes to the blurb to make sure we treat smaller countries with the same respect. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:06, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  • Another alternative that can be considered that could be workable to all parties is "Tsai Ing-wen wins the 2020 presidential elections in Taiwan." Neutral, accurate, concise. Colipon+(Talk) 00:39, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

    Or: "Tsai Ing-wen (pictured) wins the Taiwanese presidential election and is re-elected president", so as to follow the wording of the article title and be able to use "president" unqualified. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 03:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

  • Another error Considering she was already president (and got re-elected), she needs to be introduced as "President Tsai Ing-wen is ..."—Bagumba (talk) 07:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

    Suggestion: "In Taiwan, President Tsai Ing-wen (pictured) is re-elected." this avoids the whole Republic of China/Taiwan conundrum. There is no issue referring to the geographical location as "Taiwan".—Bagumba (talk) 07:31, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Bagumba, this is a good idea. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 13:55, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I think this would work.-- P-K3 (talk) 15:58, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I am in favour of this proposal also. Colipon+(Talk) 18:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Blurb amended - per my comments above, I don't really think this is necessary but since people are unhappy, there seems to be a rough consensus, and it's not the end of the world, I have amended the blurb with Bagumba's suggestion.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:27, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

January 10

(Stale) Quetta bombing

• Nominated by Vegan Gypsy (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: A horrible news with significant no. of deaths. Vegan Gypsy (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for your work on this article, but it is now older than the oldest item currently on ITN, so according to the rules it will not be posted. If there are further developments, please nominate again — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Wolfgang Dauner

• Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Legendary jazz pianist in Germany, also fusion composer. Article was tagged for sources. I noticed his death only last night, and am on vacation. If anybody is inclined to add, there's much more in German, and the 2010 interview is fascinating reading. Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support' - article is in reasonable shape, well-cited, and has the fundamental info. Marking as ready.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:17, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Neil Peart

• Nominated by Masem (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Drummer for the band Rush. Death on the 7th but only reported today. Article needs sourcing TLC. Masem (t) 21:22, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Suggest blurb: widely considered the greatest drummer (or at least routinely in the top 3) of all time. - Floydian  _¢ 21:34, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose not a blurb in any sense, and article isn't ready. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:36, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Definitely not a blurb. He retired on news he had cancer, this was not a surprised. If he died in the midst of touring as a surprise to everyone, maybe. But this is not like Prince or David Bowie in terms of musicians. --Masem (t) 21:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
    • He retired because of arthritis not long ago, his death was still completely unexpected. - Floydian  _¢ 21:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
      • It's terribly sad but it's not a blurb. If Ringo Starr or even Roger Taylor died right now, we wouldn't blurb him. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
        • Ringo I would think would get a blurb—his entire career may have been through the good fortune of attaching himself to other people's coat-tails, but his level of fame is such that even if his death were completely expected after a long illness, I'd still expect it to get the 'full blacked-out front page, souvenir supplement, and "what he meant to me" by z-list celebs' treatment in every paper. With the exception of Trump and QEII his name is almost certainly better known globally than that of any current head of state. This guy, however, is not Ringo; if I stopped a hundred people in the street and asked "who was the drummer in Rush?" I doubt a single one could name him. ‑ Iridescent 21:55, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
          • Exactly. He's very important probably to a group of people of a certain age and type - eg people that likely were in college in the 70s and 80s when Rush was the big thing - but not as much a global household name as Ringo, or Prince, or Bowie. This to me is an issue around the same problem that led to us posting Carrie Fisher as a blurb which we retroactively saw as a mistake - an "important" person to a certain clique but not really that important in the long run. --Masem (t) 22:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
            • Ringo should never get a blurb, I'm not sure how he would ever meet the "transformative" criterion. Even Thomas would agree with me. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 22:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
              • He was a part of a package—it's "four lads who shook the world", not "three lads who shook the world and their ugly mate". When the time comes I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get overwhelming support for a blurb; unless the Third World War starts on the same day it will be guaranteed the be the lead story in every news outlet in the world. Plus, it's probably one of the best BLP articles on Misplaced Pages (admittedly assisted by the fact that he hasn't done anything of note for 50 years so it doesn't need much updating), so it will be an opportunity to showcase it. ‑ Iridescent 22:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
                • We'll have to wait and see. Unless there's recognition for his work as The Fat Controller, I'm not interested. As we all know, Paul said Ringo wasn't even the best drummer in the band. His work isn't transformative, it's just Sideshow Bob-esque. I personally love some of the Beatles' anthology work where Ringo expresses instrumentally. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 22:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose RD on quality - this is apparently a "good article", but it's not really very good because large parts of it lack citations. Also oppose blurb, as noted above he's famous but not that famous.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Despite being a good article it has numerous sourcing issues. If these aren’t fixed soon and his page isn’t featured on RD this could also be a candidate for GA demotion. Nonstopmaximum (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I plan to work on sourcing and fixing some of the worse bits. Not worth a blurb, but a listing will suffice. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 22:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support blurb - This isn't just some drummer. This is Neil Peart. Come on. WaltCip (talk) 23:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb if it's not obvious from my comments above. Quite aside from the quality issue, I've never heard of him and I'd be willing to bet that I don't know a single person who's heard of him, and I've lived my life surrounded by muso types. ‑ Iridescent 23:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb Never heard of him, and rock music is one of my interests. P-K3 (talk) 23:28, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

LOL, ok --LaserLegs (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support blurb - Lyricist and drummer of the one of the greatest rock bands of all time. CoatCheck (talk) 23:45, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Blurb while Peart is widely recognized by anyone with a clue as a well known and influential drummer, my subjective criteria for a blurb is the death/funeral becoming a news item on it's own (think Michael Jackson) and not just an obit. We can bump it to a blurb in a day or two if it's still making headlines. Oppose RD for now because of the CN tags. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support RD: Highly notable drummer. There's thousands of rock drummers in the world, but not too many are in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the Order of Canada. Article has 91 sources, how many does it need, 100? TomCat4680 (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

• Firstly, if you’re supporting RD, then notability is not relevant. Secondly, it’s not the number of sources overall, but the number of statements that are unsourced.P-K3 (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Regretful oppose RD on article quality alone. I was quite surprised that this wasn't already up, but looking at the article I can see many uncited paragraphs. Can switch to support once this gets cleaned up. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:48, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support RD - definitely RD ready.BabbaQ (talk) 01:00, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
  • It's not RD ready - its 90% there, but there are several CN tags, and a fair number of sections very light on reference that need it, like "Playing style reinvention". It's close, but not close enough. --Masem (t) 01:24, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support blurb and RD' - His influence on rock was big enough to justify blurb, don't see why people don't want blurb. Doomgloom2678 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support for RD only when citations are improved Joseywales1961 (talk) 10:19, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support blurb and RD' Very important drummer, musician. And a writer to boot. 91 sources, and you are quibbling over the few paragraphs that need additional citation? Again, a deliberately perverse result. Not unlike when Dr. John died. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:50, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes we are quibbling about missing citations. Material highlighted on WP's main page should be showing our best work. Lots of missing citations is not our best work. --Masem (t) 15:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

It has 100 sources. Is it the "best article in Misplaced Pages?" No. But it is a very good article, if not a perfect one. Perfection is not a requirement for inclusion on the main page.

USA Today's writers compared him favorably to other top shelf rock drummers.He was “considered one of the best rock drummers of all time, alongside John Bonham of Led Zeppelin; Ringo Starr of The Beatles; Keith Moon of The Who; Ginger Baker of Cream and Stewart Copeland of The Police.” Henderson, Cydney; Deerwester, Jayme (January 11, 2020). "Rush drummer Neil Peart dies of brain cancer at 67: 'Rest in peace brother'". USA TODAY. Gannett News. Retrieved January 11, 2020. As Variety wrote: "idely considered one of the most innovative drummers in rock history, Peart was famous for his state-of-the-art drum kits — more than 40 different drums were not out of the norm — precise playing style and on stage showmanship. Cornell, Jeff; Aswad, Jef (January 11, 2020). "Neil Peart, Rush Drummer, Dies at 67". Variety. Retrieved January 11, 2020. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:45, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Number of references mean nothing. Its where there are large swathes of text including non-obvious statements that are not sourced. We aren't asking for perfection, but an article marked GA with this many CNs has clearly fallen out of the quality that it had been when it was at GA. That GA was back in 2008, so clearly 12 years of time have left the article in a poor state to not be yet postable. --Masem (t) 19:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

If I wasn't using a mobile phone, I'd simply comment out the unreferenced statements. Hopefully one of the above supporters can. - Floydian  _¢ 22:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support RD. Notable drummer but we shouldn't just give a blurb to everyone. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 21:58, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Ready no more CN tags, no more orange tags. --LaserLegs (talk) 12:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
• Posted to RD  — Amakuru (talk) 13:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

RD: John Crosbie

• Nominated by Ultimograph5 (talk · give credit)
• Updated by 45.72.244.163 (talk · give credit)

Nominator's comments: Canadian politician with a very long and storied career; this includes holding many top positions like Minister of Justice/Finance/Transport/Fisheries, being Lieutenant Governor of Newfoundland, longtime MP and MLA with many cabinet positions at Provincial level. In those roles played a major part in decades of Canadian politics. Ultimograph5 (talk) 18:46, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

• Weak support Generally in good shape but could do with a better reference than autobiography in the Leadership Bid section, also the life after politics section could be improved with sources to some of the statements Joseywales1961 (talk) 19:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose too much unreferenced material for a BLP, let alone one going to the main page. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 19:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too many "citation needed" templates. If improvements are made, please "ping" me. LefcentrerightTalk (plz ping) 15:00, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) US House votes to limit Trump's military power

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Nominated by Abishe (talk · give credit)

• Oppose As the BBC says it is " a largely symbolic resolution", definitely non-binding. It's basically the dem-heavy House going "We're warning you that we think you have overextended your war powers." and had no ramifications outside of election year politicking. --Masem (t) 03:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose No significance. It's just one chamber and there is zero chance this is going to pass the Senate. It's political theater. And in any event we don't don't do domestic politics below national elections (conceding rare exceptions). -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - Symbolic measure with no long-term significance and no chance of being taken up in the Senate.--WaltCip (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose House does a lot of things without the Senate. Spencer 13:24, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per 4 previous. Suggest snow. – Sca (talk) 14:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) 2019–20 Persian Gulf crisis

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Nominated by Abishe (talk · give credit)
• Created by Z.graber (talk · give credit)
• Updated by RopeTricks (talk · give credit) and Greyshark09 (talk · give credit)

• Oppose Yes, the air strike and retalitory missile firing was news, but all news suggest the events have quieted at this point and its already falling off the front page coverage. --Masem (t) 03:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support hasn't de-escalated completely yet, if it does we can remove it in a few days' time. Banedon (talk) 03:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per my rational here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:43, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose the flight crash and airstrike blurbs cover the major points for now.—Bagumba (talk) 09:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - No further escalation expected at this time.--WaltCip (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per previous. No need. – Sca (talk) 14:08, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - Same reasoning as opposing US-Iran Relations for Ongoing a couple days ago ✈ mike_gigs _contribs 16:11, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Weak Support Ongoing crisis, continuing tensions. De-escalation is by all signs temporary as the underlying tension remains. Ultimograph5 (talk) 18:37, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Ain't gonna fly. Suggest snow. – Sca (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose standard sabre rattling. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 19:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

(Closed) UK Parliament approves Britain to leave from EU

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Nominated by Abishe (talk · give credit)

• Oppose Assuming the article quality is up to scratch, I would expect that Brexit will be posted when it actually happens. And its worth noting that this isn't even the final approval. The House of Lords still has to rubber stamp the bill. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:52, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Still has to be rubber stamped by The Lords and the Queen (and, at least as far as I know, by the EU Parliament, which might yet decide to be a bit awkward because it may not like been treated as a rubber stamp, tho this is so little In The News that, for all I know or care, it may have happened already without me noticing). Even then it will probably be fairly minor news. Incidentally, I wouldn't take it too much for granted that we'll post it when it happens at the end of this month, on grounds both that it's stale news (having been known about at least since Bojo won his majority in the election last month, which we posted) and at least arguably means little as this is (at least arguably) Brexit In Name Only(BRINO) while the 'real Brexit', if any, won't happen until the end of the transition period at the end of this year (assuming that isn't postponed, or fudged, etc) - but those are all questions for us to deal with then, not now. Tlhslobus (talk) 11:10, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Note that it would probably make more sense to put Brexit back into Ongoing instead of posting this (tho I'd almost certainly be opposed to Ongoing too, for such reasons as that it's now only minor news, etc). Tlhslobus (talk) 11:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, wait until the 31st and post then. --Tone 11:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose & wait. As others have pointed out, passing the Commons is not the final step in becoming law. More importantly, the event itself happens in three weeks, so it would be more appropriate to post on 31 Jan / 1 Feb. Modest Genius 11:53, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Tone.--WaltCip (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Conditionally support only after 31st January this will be posted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.43.3 (talk) 13:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per Walt, Orientem. Just an interim bit. – Sca (talk) 14:11, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Nominators often include links to external websites and other references in discussions on this page. It is usually best to provide such links using the inline URL syntax rather than using <ref></ref> tags, because that keeps all the relevant information in the same place as the nomination without having to jump to this section, and facilitates the archiving process.

For the times when <ref></ref> tags are being used, here are their contents:

1. "Outspoken former federal cabinet minister John Crosbie dead at 88". CTVNews. 2020-01-10. Retrieved 2020-01-10.

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