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Current disputes

Rodney Reed

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Rodney Reed (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• CaptainPrimo (talk · contribs)
• Wallyfromdilbert (talk · contribs)
• John2510 (talk · contribs)
• Bueller 007 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A certain user seeks to remove all mention of a convicted rapist and murderer's past criminal history despite it being documented in a Supreme Court document and serving as the basis for his death penalty conviction. He claims this individual is not a public figure despite him being interviewed willingly by Dr. Phil on his tv show and hanging out with celebrities like Kim Kardashian. CaptainPrimo (talk) 22:17, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to dispute resolution. I agree that Reed's criminal past should be covered because he is a public figure who has received substantial national media coverage, and--importantly--because he thrust himself into the spotlight as a last ditch effort to avoid execution by getting the public to petition his death sentence. One of the petitions to save him has 3 million signatures: He is a "public figure" because he tried to make himself famous and succeeded. There is substantial coverage--in numerous reliable secondary sources--of the additional crimes that this individual has been charged with. In addition, these other charges are directly relevant to Reed's notability, because they are what led to his being charged for murder in the first place, and they are what caused him to be sentenced to death. This material on additional crimes should be admissible as long as the article clearly say "alleged". It is impossible to tell this story in an unbiased manner if the material on his additional charges (especially the alleged rape of the 12-year-old girl for which he was also a DNA match and which was used against him at sentencing resulting in him being sentenced to death) continues to be removed.

I also agree that--although I haven't looked at the page for a while now--there is one obstinate editor who refuses to listen to reason to any argument and just reverts any addition of this material at his/her whim. He/she appears to be wilfully misrepresenting WP:BLPCRIME. The argument is tantamount to saying that the page for Nikolas Cruz should not mention that he has been accused of the shooting because he has not been convicted yet. NO. We are allowed to mention it, as long as we say "alleged", and we have to mention it in order to properly tell the story of how this individual became notable.

However, the Supreme Court documents will generally be inadmissible as sources because they are primary sources. In addition, all of the Supreme Court documents I have seen represent the claims of the prosecution and/or the defense; they do not represent the findings of the Court. The Supreme Court documents should not be used as references in the article. In any case, they are not needed because there has been substantial coverage of this material in reliable secondary sources. To give just one example: Bueller 007 (talk) 22:57, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

The issue is well-outlined on the article talk page. Fundamentally, there is a clear consensus that the previous accusations against Reed should be included. Further, Reed is a public figure as a result of the case for which he was convicted alone, if not for the many other reasons cited. Lastly, even if he were not a public figure, that would mean only that "editors must seriously consider" whether such information should be mentioned or not. Reed's conviction is the subject of a lot of media and public debate. Omission of these other incidents would deprive readers of available information that they may, or may not, consider significant in weight his guilt or innocence in the case in which he was convicted. WP should err on the side of giving its readers available information, and let them find the truth for themselves. John2510 (talk) 02:14, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

It should also be noted that--in order to make it appear that there is less consensus against him than there actually is--Wally repeatedly struck comments from an anonymous IP that was later blocked for being an open proxy. As justification, Wally claimed (without reference) that this was standard practice for banned users. Wally claimed that this individual was banned for being a sockpuppet (false), failed to acknowledge the difference between a ban and a block, and failed to acknowledge a Misplaced Pages policy document that explicitly says that legitimate users are permitted to use open proxies until the proxy happens to be blocked: WP:PROXY. There are a number of users who believe the material about Reed's additional crimes should be added, and only one who continues to obstinately remove this information. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:09, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Rodney_Reed

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Provide guidance on whether this information should be included or not.

Summary of dispute by Wallyfromdilbert

MrTiger0307, this issue should be raised again at BLPN rather than a selective choice of editors at DRN. Thank you. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Rodney Reed discussion

1st volunteer statement

I have reviewed the case and deem that there has been sufficient discussion of this issue to proceed and I volunteer to mediate it. Before proceeding I would like to make sure all parties involved are willing to conduct a civilized discussion. @CaptainPrimo:, @Wallyfromdilbert:, @John2510:, and @Bueller 007:, are you willing to participate? --MrTiger0307 (talk) 19:41, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I'm willing to participate. And the issue that was raised at BLPN now that I've tracked it down, seems to be moot because there's other sources besides the court document that highlight the same details as noted by Bueller. Wally is not even using the argument that was reached at that discussion as his primary argument. He is instead claiming Reed is not a public figure and should be shielded. CaptainPrimo (talk) 21:26, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, me also, although everything I need to say has already been said a few times on the Rodney Reed Talk page. As has been mentioned on the Talk page, and has CaptainPrimo has described, the original BLPN has often been (mis-)cited to say that the material about Reed's additional crimes cannot be included. However, the BLPN discussion was only about using primary sources. Reed's crimes are discussed in a number of reliable secondary sources. Wally has removed statements from these secondary sources vigorously while citing the irrelevant BLPN discussion. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

2nd volunteer statement

I am placing this request on hold and suggesting that this be taken up again on BLPN. Based on the result of the case there, I will then decide whether or not to continue this case, or, should it be successfully resolved there, I will close this request and mark it either Resolved or Failed depending on the decision there. --MrTiger0307 (talk) 15:31, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Rodney_Reed Discussion started here. CaptainPrimo (talk) 22:29, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (album)

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (album) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Muso805 (talk · contribs)
• 88marcus (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Simply put, the article has stated for some years that this album has sold over 30 million copies worldwide. At the time there were 5 Reliable Sources. Recently, a user chose to blank this, stating that it's a "HUGE inflation, and "completely made up figure". I reinstated the fact, and also added two more Reliable Sources. At this point, this editor, along with another editor, have REPEATEDLY blanked the section. I tried bringing the issue up on the discussion page, and even provided more RS on the discussion page, that are not in the article as of yet. The basic response was "Well, the RIAA doesn't say so". The two editors now appear to have dropped that, but persist with the blanking, including now blanking a "citation needed" tag for a sentence that is totally unsourced. Thus, in the eyes of these 2 editors, a statement with seven Reliable Sources can be easily blanked, along with all seven sources, but a statement with NO Reliable Sources doesn't require a 'citation needed' tag. One of the two editors suggested I post this request here. So, I have.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida_(album)#User_blanking_reliably_sourced_information._Why?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Basically, are the seven Reliable Sources valid? Or even one of them? If even one of them is declared to be a Valid Source, then there's no reason this blanking should continue.

Summary of dispute by Muso805

The reliable sources cited seem to relate to local newspapers reporting the death of a former member. The references do not contain any confirmation of 30 million sales. This has to be a grossly inflated figure as the Wiki RIAA figures show. In looking online at several 'best-selling albums of all time' this album does not appear. My gut feeling is that this figure has been banded about with no official source and has been passed around and repeated. The references quoted by the user 197.87.101.28 merely quote a sales figure. The RIAA figure seems the reliable source. User 88marcus and user Isaacsorry (on 28th December) have both disputed and reverted the revisions made by user 197.87.101.28. In support of 88marcus I also reverted the additions that user 197.87.101.28 keeps putting back. This seems pointless so this must be resolved. I maintain that it is nonsense that this album could have sold more than 30 million copies - and this is supported by User 88marcus and user Isaacsorry. If this can be proved otherwise then the removal of these additions must stand. From what I can see the real total would be no more than 5 million copies.Muso805 (talk) 15:27, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 88marcus

The first person who erase the inflated sales was @Isaacsorry: link and I reverted since then because this album didn't charted in almost any country and its certifications counted are around 4,5 million copies. An album like Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band peaked in a lot of countries since the first release in 1967 and the claim is that it sold 32 million copies. How In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida sold almost the same with such bad chart performance and not even 5 million certified copies. This seems completely promotional. Those sites the user used as sources are not reliable at all and we could consider use them if they say this album sold 7 or 8 million because would be very accurate but not 30 million copies like albums with great chart performance and many certifications worldwide.--88marcus (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (album) discussion

1st volunteer statement

I have reviewed the case and deem that there has been sufficient discussion of this issue to proceed and I volunteer to mediate it. Before proceeding I would like to make sure all parties involved are willing to conduct a civilized discussion. @Muso805:, @88marcus:, and @197.87.101.28:, are you willing to participate? --MrTiger0307 (talk) 15:55, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

I am happy to participate and add what I canMuso805 (talk) 23:48, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

@197.87.101.28: where are you?--88marcus (talk) 18:14, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

I thought this was underway?.197.87.101.28 (talk) 05:54, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Is anyone reading this? Basically, the following Reliable Sources were posted(some are actually only on the discussion page at this point..)

Four Reliable Sources stating that the album In-A-Gadda-DA-Vida had sold eight million copies within one year of its release..

Now, to the actual article.

A Reliable Sources saying that the album In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was the biggest-selling album in the USA for the calendar year 1969. (It was released on June 14, 1968.)

Seven Reliable Sources all stating thatthe album In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide.

So, to summarize. The album In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was released on June 14, 1968. Within one year of its initital release it sold over eight million copies. For the calendar year January 1 1969 - December 31 1969 it was the biggest-selling album of all in the United States of America. And, over thirty-four years after its original release, its worldwide sales were 30 million. And ALL of that is Reliably Sourced, according to Misplaced Pages Rules and Guidelines.

The "problem" is that some people personally believe that that number "has to be" "inflated". And their sole 'reasoning' is that the RIAA has only 'certified' In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida as quadruple platinum...in 1993.

Note the details. Certified Gold on December 3 1968. But then only certified both Platinum and Quadruple-Platinum on the same day...January 26 1993.

As stated elsewhere on Misplaced Pages(with Reliable Sources), the "Platinum" Award was only introduced in 1976. And "Multi-Platinum" even later..

How then would something released before 1976 be certified 'Platinum'? And would it even. As I've mentioned, look at perhaps the biggest-selling solo artist of all time's "RIAA Certifications"

That really says it all.

What we have is MULTIPLE RELIABLE SOURCES all verifying the exact same thing, and then ONE source from the RIAA simply not "certifying" something that didn't even exist until several years after the album in question had been released and sold the majority of its 30 million units sold. Does Misplaced Pages go with Multiple Reliable Sources, or one source(RIAA) that, in fact, requires WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH to come to the "conclusion" that In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida "didn't sell 30 million copies"? 197.87.101.28 (talk) 08:20, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

2nd Volunteer Statement

I'm not sure what happened to the original volunteer @MrTiger0307: but until they return, I'm going to go ahead and step in. I have reviewed the discussion and what has been stated so far. @197.87.101.28: has listed several sources, and after reviewing WP:RS I have to admit, I'm confused as to why they are being dismissed. @88marcus: and @Muso805: Could you please explain? I understand the RIAA has only certified 4 million copies, but again- that was over 25 years ago, with no updates since then. Please explain to me why that, long un-updated source should be considered over other sources that otherwise meet WP:RS? Nightenbelle (talk) 16:26, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

RIAA certified in 1993 and cover all sales since 1968. Yes, it was 25 years ago but this album didn't appeared in Billboard charts since then and so couldn't sell millions and millions copies more. Again, those sources are not reliable for music, they don'y work with that like IFPI and RIAA. Inflated sales figures are frequently practiced by record companies for promotional purposes. Those sales are from the band itself and they are Woozle effect, there's nothin reliable that indicate it sold that amount of copies, I showed the case of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band an album that was released a year before In-A-Gadda-DA-Vida and has 20 million certified copies, and appeared in charts till 2017 when it was re-released, the claim is that this album sold 32 million worldwide almost the same as In-A-Gadda-DA-Vida, that has less than 5 million certified sales, and barely performed in charts around the world. The info of the 30 million copies appeared in a website means nothing when those sites doesn't work with sales score. See the case of Thriller (album) there are a lot of sites claiming it sold 100 million, 120 million, 150 million and so on, including sites that @197.87.101.28: would consider reliable, it's another case of the Woozle effect, Thriller is listed in Misplaced Pages as having sold 66 million because its more accurate according to its certifications (around 45 million copies) and chart performance. RIAA is reliable because it works with US sales, the sites that @197.87.101.28: don't.--88marcus (talk) 17:08, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't like the way you "sites that would consider reliable.." etc. And, as noted, the RIAA does not "cover all sales since 1968". Again, the Platinum award was only instituted in 1976. And to "certify" sales in 1993, it would be obvious that all sales since 1968 could not be verified a quarter of a century after the event. Your sole case against multiple WP:RS appears to be that the RIAA only certifies 4xPlatinum. Yet, a) your "deduction" that 30 million worldwide is "inflated" is entirely WP:OR, and b) the two statements "the album has sold 30 million copies worldwide" and "the RIAA has certified it 4xplatinum" are not mutually exclusive. As the RIAA does not have access to total sales figures from June 1968, not by a very long shot. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 18:52, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@88marcus: does have a point about the Woozle effect. Most of those articles either specifically state they are citing the band's own website for number of records sold, or they do not state where they got their information. I would recommend the compromise of saying the number sold as of 1993 and follow up with the number the band claims "As of 1993, the RIAA has certified In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida as having sold at least xx million, but the band's website claims as many as xx million have been sold world-wide." This would get both numbers in while staying accurate. Would you both agree to this? Nightenbelle (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle: If there's no other way to solve that it's ok to me. The claim of 30 million worldwide came from the band's website so it's a primary source, the others sources only copy what their website stated there. Maybe you can include: According to the band's website the album sold 30 million copies worldwide even though it has 4,630,000 copies certified since 1968.--88marcus (talk) 00:22, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I would have to say 'No' to that one. That is giving preference to one source, ahead of multiple others As noted, earlier, there were (at least) 4 Reliable Sources stating that the album had sold EIGHT million copies within a year of its release. So, to go from 8 million in 1969 to 4 million in 1993 is clearly not true. But, going from 8 million in 1969 to 30 million worldwide in 2012 makes more sense, especially when there are multiple Reliable Sources to back that up. How about simply stating 'The album has sold over 30 million copies worldwide, and is certified 4xplatinum by the RIAA'? Anything else would require WP:POV and/pr WP:OR. And, it's not "the band's website" that "claims". Reliable Sites state outright. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 05:04, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Me again. As one example the exact quote from the Rolling Stone article is "Dorman was born in St. Louis, Missouri, in 1942. He joined the Southern California-based Iron Butterfly for its second and best-known album, In-a-Gadda-Da-Vida, which was released in 1968. The 17-minute title track helped the album sell more than 30 million copies..". Where does it say "according to the band's website", or words to that effect? The London Free Press site states "The musician joined the psychedelic rock band in 1967 and their second album, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, sold over 30 million copies worldwide." Again, NO "According to the band's website". Just fact. etc. In fact only Fox News states "Its second album, "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida," sold more than 30 million copies, according to the band's website". The other six RS all state the "30 million sold" as a simple statement of fact, with no mention of "According too the band's website", or words to that effect. By saying "the band claims" or "according to the band's website" makes it seem like a lot of hot air, rather than Multiple RS stating it as plain fact. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 07:27, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@197.87.101.28: Where those reliable sites you included take the 30 million claim?? IFPI says that? No. RIAA says that? No. The chart performance give the idea it sold millions and millions of copies over the years like many albums of Pink Floid and Beatles did (that appeared in charts around the world and have 20 or 25 million copies certified by RIAA, IFPI and so on)? No. All are promotional sales and came from the band's record company. Where do you think Rolling Stones take that information? did they count the sales?--88marcus (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Could you please restate the first sentence "Where those reliable sites you included take the 30 million claim??" Do you mean 'Where do they make the claim?' Well, in the articles. Just click on the links and read them. If you mean something else, I apologise, but it seems you made a bad typo there.Now, as repeatedly noted, multiple albums by eg. Elvis Presleyand The Rolling Stones were "only" 'certified Gold'by RIAA. But, so what? You are basing your entire case on the fact that a standard that didn't even exist until nearly a decade after In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida' was released didn't "certify" it as anything. But, what do the MULTIPLE RELIABLE SOURCES ALL state as plain fact? And, to put it on you, where exactly do YOU come with the information that "All are promotional sales and came from the band's record company."? Do you work for the record company? Then, what do we go with? Multiple WP:RS all stating the exact same thing, or your personal beliefs about "promotional sales"? Why would a record company even be trying to do such promotion for an album released in 1968 anyway? 197.87.101.28 (talk) 04:29, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't care anymore. Do in the article what you want. Those 30 million copies is inflated and fake, everyone who follow sites and forums about /charts/sales/certifications knows that. Promotional sales made for commercial purposes. Maybe someone can reverted that amount of copies again, the sources you give don't work with record sales, they're not reliable and only repeted what the band says to them, to me is enough. Good bye and good work.--88marcus (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, that is entirely your WP:POV, which requires WP:OR. You have no WP:RS to state that "Those 30 million copies is inflated and fake". And the RIAA "4 million" 'certification' has been well=explained, and it is well-known

why that RIAA number is so low. But, anyway, there still isn't any actual contradiction between citing multiple WP:RS that state the '30 million' figure AND citing the RIAA 'certification'. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 04:46, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

3rd volunteer statement

My input here was requested on my talk page. From a very cursory glance at the discussion here, the album article talk page and the linked sources provided here, my feeling is that we have to acknowledge the 8 million sales figure over the album's first year of release and the 30 million worldwide sales total. That is what the majority of third party reliable sources say about the album, and that's what Misplaced Pages aims to reflect in its articles. Having said that, I also see the 30 million total as somewhat suspect; my personal view means absolutely nothing, of course, but the comparison made above between the Iron Butterfly album and the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper is valid. We've got Sgt. Pepper listed with 32 million estimated sales at List of best-selling albums, I don't know where (or if) In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida ranks there. Having worked on Beatles articles for several years, I'm used to coming across extraordinary and/or contradictory claims. Whereas the Beatles are so well established as the "best" and the "biggest" during the 1960s, to the extent that present-day media coverage takes that for granted and can afford to indulge in questioning that reality in the interest of creating newsworthy content, coverage of Iron Butterfly might be seeking to remind readers of that band's popularity; eg, as one of the listed sources says: "Iron who?" Meaning, even though we consider them reliable, these sources are approaching the subject from the aspect of how overlooked the artist/album is – and how better to illustrate the point by repeating the claims that their album In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida sold 8 mill within a year and has worldwide sales of 30 mill?

As I say, I've not engaged at all heavily with the issue, but my approach would be to present the information in such a way that the certified sales are given precedent, and the 8 mill and 30 mill sales totals are provided following that. Point being that, unless something is utterly impossible or contradicted by the majority of reliable sources, it's not for us to decide what's wrong or right; but we can (and should) present it in, if not a "responsible" way, then a way that satisfies good-faith accusations that the statement is dubious. JG66 (talk) 12:48, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

PS: please ping me if anyone wants a further response from me. I'm not watching the page. Thanks, JG66 (talk) 13:17, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Off-topic comment

My apologies, there were some unforeseen circumstances that required my immediate attention, this is my first chance to come back, I'll just go ahead and step out here, many apologies. --MrTiger0307 (talk) 03:24, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I have made contact request with two senior music Editors at WIKI. I hope that they can resolve this nonsense in a calm wayMuso805 (talk) 09:51, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

4th volunteer statement

If that album really has sold more than 30 million copies, I'm very surprised it has never been added to List of best-selling albums. Furthermore it doesn't appear at:

• "The 50 best-selling albums of all time by businessinsider.com.
• "The 35 Best-Selling Albums in American History" at mentalfloss.com
• "The 25 Best-Selling Albums of All Time" at pastemagazine.com (beware this one, very browser sticky)
• "50 Best Selling Studio Albums" at thisdayinmusic.com
• The 50 best-selling albums of all time at independent.co.uk
• "The Top 40 Best-Selling Studio Albums of All Time" at bbc.co.uk (UK only)
• "The 100 Best Selling Albums & Artists of All Time (Updated for 2019)" at digitalmusicnews.com.
• etc., etc. (there are many more similar lists besides these and I challenge anyone to find a mention of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.

The sources currently used at the article for that album, to support the claim "achieved worldwide sales of over 30 million copies" all seem pretty weak. None of them seem to quote any reliable industry source(s). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:55, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

It used to be on that article, but was removed. The reason: The RIAA 'certification'. Note too that all these "Best-selling albums of all time" use the RIAA 'certifications'.

But the actual figures were very closely monitored. Here's another WP:RS...

And more {{WP:RS]], stating another fact..

(both stating, as many more would, that it spent 81 weeks in the Top 10, and 140 weeks "in the charts" overall. The latter also states that the album sold more than eight million copies in its first year, and that it had sold more than 25 million copies worldwide(at the time of the book)).

So, we now have a very clear set of WP:RS.

• Released June 14, 1968.
• Achieved Gold (500 000 sales) certification within a few months of release.
• Had sold over eight million copies within its first year of release(ie. bu June 14 1969).
• Was the biggest-selling album in the USA for the calendar year January 1 1969 - December 31 1969.
• Spent 81 weeks in the Top 10, and 140 weeks in the charts.
• Had sold more than 25 million copies worldwide by 1993
• Had sold more than 30 million copies worldwide by 2012.
• Has 'everlasting appeal'

We also have WP:RS telling us that

• Until 1976, the RIAA only had 'Gold' certification.
• Any album released before 1976 had to have the record company specifically request that the RIAA 'certify it'
• Many albums released before 1976 are 'only' Gold, as no attempt was made to get them 'certified' by the RIAA(ok, that one requires some WP:OR.
• In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was released in 1968, was certified 'Gold' in 1968...but was only 'certified' both 'Platinum' AND 'Quadruple-Platinum' by the RIAA on the same day...in 1993.

So, what happened in the 25 years between the 'Gold' and 'Platinum'/'Quadruple-Platinum' certifications? Why, if the 'Platinum' standard was introduced in 1976, did it take until 1993 for an album that was Gold within its first few months of release in 1968, and went on to be the biggest-selling album of the calendar year 1969(and was well-known for having sold more than eight million copies within its first year of release), to achieve those 'Platinum' and 'Quadruple-Platinum' certifications? Numerous WP:RS all state the exact same thing, the sales verified in those multiple WP:RS. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 05:21, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Please indent your replies. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:37, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

What was removed? As you can see, all I'm challenging is the claim of "over 30 million sold". How do you explain the absence of the album from all those lists (and many more besides) of best sellers (which have comparable figures)? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:14, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

You said that the album is not on Misplaced Pages's List of best-selling albums article. Well, it was.

What of "those lists" you linked to?Let's see..

• businessinsider..."We compiled the RIAA's data for the best-selling albums in U.S. history..."
• mentalfloss..."According to the RIAA, these are the best-selling albums in American history..."
• pastemagazine..." This is as accurate as we could count as of Aug. 21, 2018, just after the latest RIAA reporting period."
• thisdayinmusic.. No direct mention of RIAA. But where did thisdayinmusic get their figures? Is it even a WP:RS?
• independent.."We compiled the RIAA's data for the best-selling albums in U.S. history " (hmm, seems the same as businessinsider..)
• bbc.. Not disputing this, but this very clearly refers to only in the United Kingdom.
• digitalmusicnews.. "Breaking down the RIAA’s list of Gold and Platinum artists..."

What are we left with then? People using the RIAA as the one and only source(ahem), a UK-only list, and ONE source that is different, but has to be said to be of dubious Reliability. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 12:33, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Why was it removed? I've struck the UK-only list. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:38, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

"Why was it removed?".. who knows? Some over-eager editor? 197.87.101.28 (talk) 16:02, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I thought you might know. Did it have any source at all to support it? So you're saying that RIAA, the basis for most of those charts, is not reliable and should mot be used? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

As a good example of the problems with the RIAA certification, here's a good article..

etc.

Take note of the facts that, according to the RIAA, the biggest-selling albums in the USA for the years 1956, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1971 and 1973 were all 'certified' as no more than 0.5 million copies each!

Remembering, of course, as just one example, that the biggest-selling album of the year in the USA for the calendar year 1973 is/was The World Is A Ghetto by War, with total RIAA certified sales of 500 000 copies. Yet, that same year Dark Side of the Moon was released(on March 1). Yet Dark Side of the Moon is today certified as 15xPlatinum in the USA(ie. over 15 million copies sold), whereas The World IS A Ghetto has never even been 'certified' as 1xPlatinum!. Of course, Dark Side of the Moon was certified 1xPlatinum, Platinum and 11xPlatinum on the same day...February 16 1990! . And yet, the Platinum certification was introduced by the RIAA in 1976. And, of coure, just looking at those RIAA certifications, The World IS A Ghetto has 'certifications' of 500 000 , compared to Dark Side of the Moon's 15 000 000. Now, no doubt, Dark Side of the Moon has continued to sell at a good rate over the years, but those two numbers...half a million to 15 million, and the enormous difference is preposterous.

Again, RIAA can only certify what they can visibly see before them. That in no way guarantees that that is total sales at all, or even a significant percentage of total sales. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 18:55, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not totally sure I understand the argument you are trying to make here. You seem to be arguing that RIAA sales numbers are all underestimates. Is that correct? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:46, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: It's his opinion that the album In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was not certified enough till 1993. It was said that the album sold 8 million copies worldwide not only in US, which seems very promotional too, it didn't appear in charts in Europe or Japan and the fact that the album was the best selling album of 1968 in US doesn't confirm anything, it was in the 1960s albums didn't sold millions and millions like in the end of the 1980 when the CDs begun to increase the sales because it costs less than LPs. He constantly says that the album's 1993 certification (4x platinum) are underestimated, but the album was out of the charts after 1971. Again, where those sites get the 30 million copies? They counted? Of course not, the band give to them those numbers, the use of inflated sales to promote group is not unusual.--88marcus (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I'm awaiting clarification of the argument above. But it looks like pure WP:OR. I then want to move onto the quality of the 7 sources currently used to support the 30 million copies claim. What exactly are they based on? I tend to agree, it looks like baseless promotional hype. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:55, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

It was simple. Clearly, the biggest selling albums of the year were being monitored, with exact figures(such as by Billboard). Otherwise, having weekly charts, and "Best-selling albums of the year" could not possibly have existed. Thus, the exact sales figures would have been closely followed, and known, such as the 'eight million'.

BUT...RIAA at the time only certified albums as "Gold". Meaning that once an album sold half a million copies, and RIAA certified it as such...it was Gold. And there RIAA lost interest, as there was only a Gold certification at the time. Whether it was 500 000 or 5 000 000 was irrelevant. It sold half a million? it's Gold. It didn't? Then it's not. Again, RIAA was only interested in monitoring whether or not an album went Gold or not. Period. The TOTAL sales numbers were monitored by the record companies, and by other bodies, who all confirmed the '8 million in 1969', something the RIAA would have had no reason at all to 'certify' at the time. The RIAA only introduced the 'Platinum' award(1 000 000 sold) in 1976. And, as explained, records released before 1976 could only be 'certified' Platinum by the RIAA from 1976 on. And, as demonstrated with albums such as those by War, many record labels felt no need to 'certify' those records as such. Which is why so many albums, including 'multiple best-selling records of the year were only ever 'certified' as Gold(half a million copies sold). Others, however, were 'certified' as "Platinum", creating the problem we have today. (And of course, the multi-Platinum award was only introduced in the 1980's. Same problem. Again.) When Atlantic(after Ertegun stood down in 1992) decided to get In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida 'certified' by the RIAA, you think the RIAA had kept meticulous records of every copy of every LP, cassette, 8-track, CD etc. sold since 1968? No, it was up to the record company to provide those exact details. But the RIAA did not consider every source of sales to be 'Reliable'. Thus, the "four million sold" is clearly NOT total sales. It's not even the recorded sales that existed in 1993. It's the recorded sales that existed in 19993 that the RIAA considered to be acceptable. It's a laughably low number. Especially, as groups that were actually monitoring total sales, all agreed that the album had sold 8 million copies by 1969. This is well-known. But even it doesn't really matter. Because there are multiple WP:RS stating "8 million copies sold by mid-1969", "biggest-selling album in the USA of the year 1969", "25 million copies sold by 1993", and "30 million copies sold(today)". That is all that matters YOU think that's "hugely inflated"? That's YOUR WP:POV, and you have nothing to verify that belief. Nothing at all. In the end, Misplaced Pages relies on WP:RS, and there are endless WP:RS which state the actual facts, not to mention people who were actually monitoring the sales at the time are the ones who state those facts. You want to add the RIAA certifications? Fine. But there is no reason why that should take precedence in the article, and why numerous WP:RS should be declared "dubious", or even repeatedly deleted as a couple of people have done, just because of the RIAA. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 04:51, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

As far as another claim, let's look at just two examples.

First, the aforementioned Dark Side of the Moon. Again, released March 1 1973, certified Gold on April 17, 1973(!), but then both Platinum and 11xPlatinum only on February 16, 1990. And, ultimately 15xPlatinum on June 4 1998. Meaning that it wsold four million copies in the USA in the period 1991-1998. Where was it on the album charts at that time? (And it never reached 16xPlatinum, in the next twenty-two years?)

Now, Led Zeppelin IV.... Released November 8, 1971.. Gold on November 16 1971. But then, Platinum and 10xPlatinum on December 11 1990. We then see it rising all the time. Of particular note is the fact that it was certified 17xPlatinum on November 25 1997, but then 21xPlatinum on May 3 1999. So, did it sell 4 million copies in the USA in those 18 months? Was it on the album charts in those 18 months? 197.87.101.28 (talk) 05:00, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

• Album's chart-run:

20/07/1968 117-97-77-65-63-58-41-22-21-19-15- 10-6-5-5-5-13-16-15-15- 7-6-9-8- (24 wsf)
04/01/1969 9-10-12- 7-7-6-7-7-10-11-11-12- 6-5-6-6-8-7-7-7-7-8-6-7-6-5-6-10-9-9-6-*4*-8-10-9-8-9-6-10-8-8-5-6-9-12-12-12-11-12-12-16-16- (76 wsf)
03/01/1970:11-14-13-11-13-13-27-29-21-23-29-32-35-35-36-28-38-38-49-50-51-62-67-65-66-66-73-73-75-73- 73-93-96-90-91-99-104-118-113-121-118-115-149-153-155-149-152-158-162-162-153-156- (128 wsf)
02/01/1971 152-150-150-152-152-149-154-165-167-174-170-168 (Total: 140 wks)

• Yes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.101.28 (talk • contribs) 04:51, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, what? I have no idea what these album chart runs are supposed to show. Presumably this is for the album under discussion?
• I see that the album was removed from List of best-selling albums on 29 May 2013 here by User:Mauri96 with this edit summary: "While the album may have sold over 10 million copies in the US and WAS the year-end No. 1 album in that country, the few certifications the album has are not enough to support that sales claim or a 30 million worldwide one." Maybe they would like to offer an opinion here also?
• What is the source for the figures in the 7 sources currently used to support the 30 million copies claim? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:50, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

How would I know? I don't work for Rolling Stone, Associated Press, or any of the other five RS either. But I'm sure they have fact-checkers, and wouldn't put out something based on hearsay. That's how journalists work. Maybe you should contact say Rolling Stone? But all seven easily pass Misplaced Pages's WP:RS. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 10:39, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

The sources are these: Otago Daily Times (2012), Orange County Register (2012), Rolling Stone (2012), Associated Press (2015), Today (2012), The Saturday Evening Post (2018), The London Free Press (2012). I don't work for Rolling Stone, Associated Press, or any of the others, either. So I have no idea if they would fact-check this. Journalists often copy from other journalists, without giving their sources. There are certainly no sources for that number claimed in any of those articles. I would have expected an official industry source, or a specialist record source such as Guinness World Records, to be more reliable. But it seems they say nothing. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:47, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Should every RS on every wiki article have to say that? Because, if multiple RS all state the same fact, then it's vetified according to Misplaced Pages.

And, not that there was anything to back it up (because there could never possibly be), did someone actually say 'There were no big selling albums until the late 80's when CD's took off, because CD's were cheaper than LP's' above? Because if THAT is the crux of this 'argument', then this should end right here. There is so much wrong with that one statement. And, to be blunt, it shows complete and utter ignorance of the topic at hand by the person who could even conceive of making such a statement. 197.87.101.28 (talk) 14:58, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean here. You seem to be straying towards personal attack territory now. Perhaps somebody else would care to have a go. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:11, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Is this actually serious now? People have repeatedly attempted to move the goalposts. The original "problem" was that the number "had to be" 'hugely inflated'. Multiple RS were shown, including the '8 million in first year', 'biggest-selling album of all time within 1 year', 'biggest selling album for Atlantic Records for years', '25 million by 1993', '30 million '. Then, everything hinged on the RIAA. When the History, and unreliability, of RIAA was shown, it then became 'But where did those people who are respected journalists who work in the music business get their information from?' Now, it's "but albums didn't sell in large quantities until CD's took off in the late 80's...because CD's were cheaper than LP's."

Which is plain wrong. It is well-known that the mid-70's sales of albums rapidly dropped off until about 1982. And that had nothing to do with CD's. Because CD's were originally significantly more expensive than LP's. But only people who were actually there in the 70's/80's would know that, not people only working with modern websites, and the fact that LP"s cost more money TODAY, as they're rare collector's items, rather than the standard music format, as they were in the 60's-80's.

And, anyone who was around in the 80's remembers the 'Home Taping is Killing Music' campaign. Because more and more people were simply making copies of albums, rather than buying new LP's(and hardly anyone was buying CD's). In fact, the thing that supplanted the seemingly ever-growing home-taping was illegal downloading. Which is also why record companies stopped making things like music videos, as there simply wasn't enough money coming in from legal sales. And the great Drop off in Music sales is well-known too. What's more an interesting point was made on a television show called 'Come Together:The Rise of the Festival". In the 60's-80's, the real money was made through record sales. Playing live(often with free festivals) was a way to promote the record sales. Whereas today, the real money is made through the live concerts and merchandise. The new music is basically a way to promote the sales of concert tickets, and the sales of merchandise. It's preposterous, with the multiple albums of Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Carole King, The Eagles, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, soundtracks like Sound of Music, My Fair Lady, and many many more such albums, for anyone to state(as a fact) that "There were no big-selling records before the late 80's when CD's took over, because CD's were cheaper than LP's". Especially since CD's were more expensive than LP's. And the really big-selling albums of the 80's decade ,like 'Thriller'(biggest-selling album of all time), 'Born in the USA', 'Back in Black', 'Brothers in Arms', 'Legend', 'Queen's Greatest Hits', 'Like A Virgin', 'Flashdance', 'Purple Rain' etc. were all early-to-mid 80's. Or maybe people waited for them to come out on the 'cheaper' CD's in the late 80's before buying them? And maybe people only started really buying albums by Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin etc. in the late 80's when they were released on "cheaper" CD's? After all, according to the RIAA, those albums were released in the 60's/70's, went Gold very quickly, but were only 'certified' "Platinum" in the early 90's?

Or maybe, just maybe, we should just agree to put both the certified statements, that the In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida album has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide, AND that is has been certified 4xPlatinum by the RIAA? 197.87.101.28 (talk) 05:21, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

List of Italian inventions and discoveries

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of Italian inventions and discoveries (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• TriangoloDiTartaglia (talk · contribs)
• Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

 There are three types of content disputed:

1)Sourced content that is not present in other pages. This seems highly restrictive, preventing new material to be added on Misplaced Pages by single Users. A lot of sourced material is being removed from the list, the reason being that there isn't a corresponding article on Misplaced Pages yet. Obviously, the articles creation needs more time and people contributing constructively, which unfortunately is not the case here. 2)Sourced content that allegedly doesn't meet the criteria of an invention or innovation. This is highly subjective. 3)Sources whose textual comprehension is disputed.

Currently, per the literal introduction of the page, all the entries removed starting from https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_Italian_inventions_and_discoveries&diff=939992605&oldid=939507237 are sourced and I ask for them to be restored. The alphabetical list of Italian inventions could be transformed in a timeline with the help of the community, but not by myself alone. Also, innovations that are not inventions, such as the Galileo's telescope, are either to be restored in a separate alphabetical list or in the same list, whose title "Alphabetical list of Italian Inventions" should then be changed with "Alphabetical list of Inventions or Innovations". Please note that the introduction to the list never claims Italian exclusivity of the items, but, instead, they are objects, processes or techniques invented, "innovated" or discovered, "partially" or entirely, by Italians.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_Italian_inventions_and_discoveries#Factual_accuracy_and_adherence_to_WP:SAL_/_WP:LSC https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_Italian_inventions_and_discoveries#Galileo_Telescope

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

It would be helpful to work with someone willing to have a constructive approach to the page, so that dubious statements can be fixed and the items restored, with a timeline if it is deemed necessary. Further discussion on the talk page is hindered by the aforementioned rationale behind the removal of the material. Also, if a statement is not objective, that statement could be perfected instead of being removed along with the sources and the listed item.

Summary of dispute by Fountains of Bryn Mawr

I continually explain to TriangoloDiTartaglia that the edits fall within WP:YESPOV and WP:SAL / WP:LSC re: Selection criteria is obvious, don't add items and make claims about them in Misplaced Pages's voice that are not supported by reliable sources, don't make claims that fork with the item's linked Misplaced Pages article.

The WP:LSC seems to be obvious and has not been disputed.

It should be noted TriangoloDiTartaglia's edits have been a continuation of a line of contiguous WP:SPA accounts: User:Altes2009, User:In Ratio Veritas, all "Italian centric", sometimes aggressively PUSHing, and even deleting talk they don't like diffdiff.

It should also be noted that removal of dubious claims from this list has been pursued by other editors so this is not just a dispute with me. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by

List of Italian inventions and discoveries discussion

Gun (staff) and Jian

Closed as fizzled out. The filing editor did not answer whether they want moderated discussion or to find an expert. The other editor did not respond after being notified. The editors can resume discussion at the article talk pages or look for an expert at a WikiProject. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:59, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Steak and Blowjob Day

Closed as no response. The filing editor notified the other editors, but they have not responded after 72 hours, and so presumably are not interested in moderated discussion. The filing party can resume discussion on the article talk page, or accept that consensus is against them, or file a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:53, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Monosodium Glutamate

One of the involved users has noted that (s)he prefers a RFC over DRN. Feel free to file a new report if an RFC cannor resolve the issue. --MrClog (talk) 11:34, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

James Bradley (former slave)

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• James Bradley (former slave) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Deisenbe (talk · contribs)
• CaroleHenson (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue has to do with only one specific question: the value of recent (since 1950) newspaper articles on the man the article is about. My position is:

a) there is no source for information on this man's biography before he arrived in Cincinnati, other than his autobiographical statement and reports from contemporaries about what he said to them;

b) no recent article makes a reference to any new source of information; therefore,

c) these articles used by Carole Henson, while secondary, are not to be relied on when they make unsupported statements about this man's life, such as his having spent time in northern Kentucky (this from a source promoting travel in Kentucky), and

d) using the nineteenth-century primary sources, his own statement and direct reports by persons present about what he said, makes for a better, more accurate article.

I'll let CaroleHenson say for herself what her position is.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:James_Bradley_(former_slave)#Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:James_Bradley_(former_slave)#Newspapers_have_to_come_out

Note that on the article's talk page there is talk between myself and CaroleHenson about other issues; this request is for comment on the issue of sources only.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Make a recommendation about whether the primary sources used by me in the article before Carole Henson got involved with it in February (as seen in https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=James_Bradley_(former_slave)&oldid=939446245) should be preferred, as more accurate or reliable, than the magazine articles she has replaced them with.

Summary of dispute by CaroleHenson

I am trying to sort out your key points for a second opinion:

• You believe, especially for the period before he goes to Lane, that "the only source is his own statement".
• If a source provides any information that is not in Bradley's statement, you find that to be false information.
• Regardless of whether a source would be considered a reliable source (newspapers, books) in other instances, if you find that they published something you don't agree with, they are not a reliable source.
• You question even his own statement about being admitted to Lane, because you don't think it's likely that it happened... although I have mentioned above that there are tons of sources including Bradley that say he enrolled there. (I would agree, though, that he wouldn't have been ready to attend the literary or theological departments.)
• The means to me that you think that Bradley's statement is always the right and true source, unless something does not make sense to you. Then, it (and all the other sources that state the same thing) should be ignored.

What you have not said, but I interpret: You removed anything from the lede/intro that did not come directly from Bradley... well, and also information that came from Bradley about his life before Lane.

There was a clarification by Deisenbe about this list: I do not believe that the only source is his own statement. However, before he arrived at Lane, his statement and the comments of his contemporaries (presumably repeating what he told them) are the only sources I know of. Something like his spending time in northern Kentucky on the way to Cincinnati, I don't believe there is a reliable source for that. deisenbe (talk) 18:58, 25 February 2020 (UTC) (reply)

Please also see this discussion about removing all newspaper sources.

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:01, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

James Bradley (former slave) discussion

• Comment I just realized that the version that Deisenbe provided under the "How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?" section was after I had started working on the article. The version of the article before I got involved is this version.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Race and intelligence

I am closing this dispute for at least two reasons. First, one of the named registered editors, and another registered editor, have said that this is premature, because there is discussion on the talk page that is still in progress. Second, it is very difficult in this case to tell how many unregistered editors are taking part in the dispute, and it is always difficult to take part in dispute resolution with unregistered editors. I strongly advise the unregistered editor or editors either to log in or to register an account or two accounts, depending on how many humans there are behind the IP addresses. After registering, if discussion continues to be inconclusive, a new request can be filed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:59, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Trauma trigger

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Trauma trigger (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Pengortm (talk · contribs)
• Bilorv (talk · contribs)
• WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Disagreement about how to best summarize the article with regard to costs and benefits of trigger warnings. One editor thinks several relevant scientists being critical of trigger warnings should be included in the lead. Another editor thinks criticism should only be included after more peer reviewer research is conducted.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Some clarity on[REDACTED] standards as applies to this particular situation. We seem to have reached an impasse and a skilled[REDACTED] editor would be helpful for some broader perspective.

Summary of dispute by Bilorv

Disagreement is over the proposed lead text: While research on the effects of trigger warnings is limited, several scientists with knowledge in this area have suggested that trigger warnings may be counterproductive and actually increase anxiety and PTSD symptoms. This is a medical claim so WP:MEDRS applies. Initially, we had no MEDRS-appropriate sources for this text, but after some discussion and compromise we found sourcing for the text: Research on the effects of trigger warnings is limited.

The rest of the text is non-neutrally written ("several scientists with knowledge in this area" is peacocking), personal opinion and misleading to readers. We have had a suggestion to include something to the effect of: Limited research suggests that trigger warnings may be helpful to people with PTSD and provide no medical benefit to those without it. But the sourcing is not yet there (so more sources would be good). — Bilorv (talk) 07:52, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by WhatamIdoing

Trauma trigger discussion

• Dispute resolution noticeboard
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