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Cultural impact of Michael Jackson

Cultural impact of Michael Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Clear WP:OR and WP:FANPAGE which is created only for competing with Cultural impact of the Beatles, Cultural impact of Elvis Presley and Cultural impact of Madonna, per the admission by the SPAs attempting to retain this article.

Unlike Presley, Madonna there's not enough content to say about Michael Jackson since his influence can be only described as influence on individuals and there is List of artists influenced by Michael Jackson. As for this article, it was WP:POVFORKed from Michael Jackson#Legacy and influence.

No improvements have been made in these many years. Looking at the article I can summarize it as follow:

• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Performing arts: Mainly about Jackson's achievements already covered at List of Michael Jackson records and achievements.
• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Music videos: Mainly about his music videos. Nothing about "cultural impact".
• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Fashion: Comments about how he dressed and speculates influence on some notable individuals.
• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Visual arts: Irrelevant one-liner.
• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Race politics: Controversies about race and racism that involved him.
• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Tabloid media: Ramblings about how tabloid media made fun of him.
• Cultural impact of Michael Jackson#Global impact: Except a couple of sentences, there is nothing to see here but WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:OR.

There is almost nothing about "cultural impact" in the entire article.

There have been 2 conclusive discussions including an RfC on talk page and a music noticeboard, to keep this article a redirect but redirects are quickly reverted by the SPAs. Since there is nothing to see here and any essential content has been already covered at Michael Jackson#Legacy and influence I find delete to be the only option left here. Excelse (talk) 12:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 16:21, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 16:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

• Delete. This is a clear WP:POVFORK and always has been.

Although I initially felt that surely Jackson, of all people, had a major impact on culture, there are major problems:

• the article has sources but the coverage is not sufficient for a standalone article
• Much of the article does not even cover his cultural impact, just stuff Jackson fans want people to know. Example: Jackson's body of work reveals his attempt at fighting prejudice and injustice. The video for Black or White (1991), showed Jackson dancing with dancers of various ethnic groups and traditions, and the lyrics plead for racial tolerance and understanding.
• most dangerously the article has been used extensively to create grossly biased coverage of Jackson (just see the Talk page for examples of that). It's bad right now but it's been much worse.

I really think the best thing to do is to wipe it. Popcornfud (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

• Keep: I see an interesting and well-sourced article here. It includes many reliable sources specifically talking about Michael Jackson as an influential cultural figure. Here are a few examples from the article:
  • The New York Times: "After Jackson, Fame May Never Be the Same"
  • The Baltimore Sun: "7 Ways Michael Jackson Changed the World"
  • Reuters: "How Michael Jackson's Thriller Changed the Music Business"
  • Vogue: "Michael Jackson: A Tribute"

I agree that the arguments about the Beatles, Elvis and Madonna are WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and not relevant, but just looking at the article, I think it's clearly a notable subject with significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. -- Toughpigs (talk) 16:15, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

See WP:ILIKEIT. Sources about the initial reaction to his death is same as the death of any other artist who is notable. That does not prove any "cultural influence". Excelse (talk) 17:02, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

It's not ILIKEIT because I don't, particularly, and I didn't say anything about my preferences; I only talked about the sources. The titles of the articles that I referenced literally say that he "changed the music business" and "changed the world" — that is not coverage that "any other artist" gets. The sources clearly indicate that this topic is notable. — Toughpigs (talk) 17:07, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

But that is how your comment read. You would want to create a Cultural impact of James Brown after reading some sources.] Or create a Cultural impact of Chuck Berry after reading some sources. But all of them will end up getting deleted because merely some positive views or influence does not justify a stand alone "cultural impact" article. Excelse (talk) 17:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you're predicting what I would or wouldn't want. I'm an uninvolved editor who's looking at an article, which has more than enough sources to demonstrate notability of the topic. — Toughpigs (talk) 17:30, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

• Keep: I'm only being frank here. These past months, I have witnessed all the strenuous efforts made by certain editors to improve the article, listening to comments and concerns of other editors, their willingness to collaborate, but despite all that, some other editors would systematically dismiss any and all edits as being trivial, impertinent or repetitive when it wasn't. Besides, that "puffery" tag is still there when it is certainly not anymore justifiable.

Michael Jackson's cultural impact on the world is unarguable and very well-documented. Since its 2017 launch, the article only improved in quality and pertinence, providing information relevant to the matter at hand according to Misplaced Pages standards. I, therefore, vote to keep the article, and it's all I'm gonna say on the matter. Israell (talk) 07:16, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Improvements have in fact been made. The poster that nominated this for deletion could also make improvements, but have opted not to. If you see improvements to be made, make them, talk page your ideas. Don’t just nominate a page for no good reason for deletion. Modern pop culture and back pop does not exist without Jackson’s culture impact that is noted and well sourced in the known good articles attached to this Wiki article. So let’s run down the list here: 1) it’s well sourced 2) It has notoriety 3) Improvements were made 4) There is no known good reason for deletion other than a flawed subjective view of the article. A view that is clearly Misplaced Pages:I just don't like it and nothing more. TruthGuardians (talk) 08:08, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

• Keep I don't see any problem in keeping this article up, especially after seeing that there are many sources that have been also posted in this discussion by Toughpigs backing up the cultural impact Michael Jackson had. I do agree that if there are any POV issues they need to be discussed and dealt with, but that doesn't mean that the whole article has to be deleted since there's enough coverage of the topic.GiuliaZB (talk) 12:03, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

• Keep I don't know what exactly Excelse and Popcornfud would consider cultural impact but Jackson's impact on visual arts, fashion, music videos are absolutely in that category. Calling the information about artists whose work was influenced by Jackson that "irrelevant one liner" is absurd especially when that exhibition was so successful. It's the very definition of cultural impact Michael Jackson: On the Wall becomes one of EMMA’s all-time visitor successes . " Mainly about his music videos. Nothing about "cultural impact"." This argument is self-defeating. His music videos had immense cultural impact. If they had not you wouldn't have seen all those Thriller danced last Halloween more than 35 years after it premiered. Don't you think that this is cultural impact? I could post literally hundreds of such examples from 2019 alone castorbailey (talk) 12:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

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