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Revision as of 21:31, 26 December 2004

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Older Discussions are avaliable at the following archives:

Talk:Arab-Israeli conflict/Archive 1

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Headers

I've gone through the headers and have neutralized them somewhat. Zain, I'm not certain how your research fits into the Arab-Israeli conflict article, but only material already published in a reputable publication is allowed in Misplaced Pages anyway. Slim 22:14, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Zain, you just deleted some material, which I've restored. If you feel something should be deleted, could you please say why on the Talk page, rather than just deleting it without comment? Many thanks, Slim 22:21, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah I thought may be it was clear from edit now let me explain.

This claim is about 'NEAR East' only. not about all jewish-muslim areas. Just only to 'NEAR East'.

Zain 22:23, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You removed the 'NEAR East' by saying see in talk. There is nothing in talk, about 'NEAR East'. Can I ask why?

Zain 22:32, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zain, you can't decide single-handedly what the section is about. Also, many Misplaced Pages readers won't know what you mean by the "near east" as it's not a term used much by non-academic English speakers anymore. Please discuss changes on Talk before making them, because the English in these articles has to be free of errors, so far as is possible, quite apart from the issue of POV or NPOV. I feel you should wait until Ed Poor arrives back to edit, as you seem to have made an arrangement with him regarding some mediation either for this article or State Terrorism, so perhaps his input would be helpful before you make any more changes. Many thanks, Slim 22:35, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

See I have right to put claim they have right to put response. I put 'Near East' earlier too but I don't know how it got removed. the claim is only about those countries where jewish-muslim relations were always good prior to creation. that's the core of the claim. And 'NEAR East' is technically more 'Encylopedic' then middle east. Middle east is very confusing that which countries to count and which not to count. See american own website http://www.state.gov/p/nea/. To avoid confusion Can I use 'ottoman empire'?

Will it be f9 If I use 'ottoman empire areas'?

Zain 22:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have put Near East back in for you as you seem so keen on it, but more Misplaced Pages readers will understand Middle East than will understand Near East, in my view. Slim 22:58, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Ok I put middle east. Can I remove the content about spain? because it doesn't come under middle east. To avoid confusion of areas can i use 'ottoman empire'. Or use 'formal jewish friendly countries'?

Can I put some thing like Relations effected in previous Jewish friendly countries, or too remove jewish word (if it is offensive).

Relations effected in previously friendly communities. Then in claim I can mention those countries like. Palestine itself , Iran , Iraq, UAE? can I do that. This way heading will be NPOV. Area will be less confusing because claim will have list of countries. Time will have less confusing, because previous means kind of adjecent, not very far past so can I use the heading.

Relations effected in previously friendly communities

And spain removal?

Zain 23:32, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zain, the header said: "Jewish-Muslim relations affected by creation of Israel." It didn't say where. You wanted to specify "relations in Near East." I objected. You insisted. I conceded, pointing out that most readers will not understand what Near East refers to. You therefore changed it to Middle East. I agreed, as a further concession. Now you want to delete material from the section to make it conform to the Middle East header . . .

The header should describe the section, not the other way round, because the section was there first, and it was you, I believe, who added most of these headers in the first place. You can't now change content to fit headers that weren't there until you added them.

If you want to request a reference from the editor who inserted that material, that's legitimate, but you shouldn't just delete it. If you feel the section doesn't match the header, then the header should be changed back to "Jewish-Muslim relations affected by creation of Israel." Slim 23:46, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Looks like a tricky issue. Because I think I can add a full new section of 'middle east'! right? or others which i suggested earlier. But may be i have to wait for others. (But Please note technically I have full right to add that view, which is not covered yet in the article. That is considering jewish friendly countries only)

Any way i think tomorrow i can edit heading. Bcoz if a particular view/angle is not covered. if i won't add it some body else will.

Zain 23:59, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zain, you are right that anyone has the right to edit articles. No editor has "ownership" of any article. But edits must be in relatively error-free English, and that can be difficult for some people if English isn't their first language. That isn't a criticism of you, so please don't take it that way. I feel it might be helpful if you wait until Ed Poor returns, because he has offered to assist, either here or at State Terrorism, so it would make sense to see what he suggests. Or perhaps Mustafaa would help out, though I can't speak for him, and he may not have time. I don't know when Ed will be back. It may not be for a few days because it's the holiday season in many countries, but it would be a good idea to wait for him as he is a very helpful person. Slim 00:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Changing my earlier comments. Actually I thought wrong and it was not me who gave that heading. this view was not even there when I categorized. It was later put by me. You can check in this difference. I was going out but Just thought that you raised incorrect point. My orignal point was not 'existance of anti-sentiment' but my point was the 'increase in anti-sentiment'. My orignal point was washed during reverts.

Please see this for what i added earlier

Page difference

Thanks.

Zain 00:39, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Israelis name various reasons for aggression toward Israel" is POV

The opening sentence explaining reasons is curently: "Israelis name various reasons for aggression toward Israel. One of the primary reasons cited is anti-Semitism (compare to philo-Semitism)." That version is POV because it implies that aggression towards Israel is an established fact. In fact, to be NPOV it should say, ""Israelis name various reasons for what they describe as aggression toward Israel." I NPOVed the sentence to: "Israelis perceive the roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict in many ways. One of the primary reasons cited is anti-Semitism (compare to philo-Semitism)." --Pravda 03:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Apparently different sides are allowed to state their own views of these matters. For example, the Palestinian side states "Palestinians cite many reasons for the lack of support of their cause in the United States, despite its broadly being supported in Europe", which, of course, is POV, since, for example, it presumes a lack of support for their cause in the United States. Jayjg 04:32, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An example of Two wrongs make a right (fallacy)? Instead of accepting POV exceptions to the NPOV rule, the proper course of action is to pursue NPOV more carefully. The POV sentence buried deep in the Palestinian section should be edited to ""Palestinians cite many reasons for the perceived lack of widespread support of their cause in the United States, despite its perceived broader support in Europe". --Pravda 04:44, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Previous POV warrior editors, while claiming NPOV, focussed almost solely on "NPOVing" the Israeli side of the argument into saying things that the Israelis actually didn't say. Let's hope your new sockpuppet is able to focus on NPOVing both sides. Jayjg 04:58, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Let's focus on article content and not your problems with other editors and their problems with you. You should have noted by now that I NPOVed both statements. Are there other POV sentences that need attention? --Pravda 06:20, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nope check the history and see the headings which I gave to israeli section. They were all POV toward Israel. Like palestenian headings were POV towards Palestine. Reason is that I thought headings can be POV. Nobody objected on it. But when palestenian headings got too strong. 'Policy' of no 'harsh' heading was used. But that too didn't remove the effectivity of palestenian headings. so at the end NPOV heading was choosen. So go back and check the history of the page before you make any claim.

Please Jayjg check it for yourself before you make further false allegations.

Zain 20:43, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Removing Israeli arguments

Zain, please stop removing arguments Israelis and their supporters make. Just because you don't think historical Arab treatment of Jews is relevant doesn't mean they feel the same way. Jayjg | Talk 20:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and here's a quick reference for you to start with . Note also the material in the article re: treatment of dhimmis, taken from Moriss's book. Jayjg | Talk 20:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am not saying that they treated good or not. The claim is only about middle east. (ottoman empire areas) Why r u not getting my point the claim is only about ottoman empire areas (middle east approx). I didn't remove libya and others because they come in middle east spain doesn't come in middle east.

So it is geography of the claim which are irrelevant to the claim of 'middle east'. Not that the claim is true or not.

Zain 21:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Israeli supporters claim the historic mistreatment of Jews by Arabs is relevant regardless of where they lived. That is their argument, whether or not you think it is valid. Jayjg | Talk 21:17, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ok I thought you are trying to 'impose' the claim. you can keep ur claim. (although to me it doesn't seem logical).

Problem solved

Zain 21:31, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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