Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:22, 26 May 2020

Template:MJ sanctions

Film: Documentary / American Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Film. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the guidelines.FilmWikipedia:WikiProject FilmTemplate:WikiProject Filmfilm Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the Documentary films task force. This article is supported by the American cinema task force.

Michael Jackson Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Michael Jackson, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Michael Jackson on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Michael JacksonWikipedia:WikiProject Michael JacksonTemplate:WikiProject Michael JacksonMichael Jackson Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• SquareOneMJ-promo-poster.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Jordan Chandler is the accuser not Evan Chandler. The court case is well documented to prove it was Jordan, it's not debatable.

Proof it was he:

Back in 1993, when the first charges of sexual abuse were leveled at Michael Jackson by a 13-year-old boy named Jordan “Jordie” Chandler

In mid-August 1993, during an appointment set up by Chandler with psychiatrist Dr. Mathis Abrams, Jordan described being molested by Jackson, including incidents of kissing, masturbation and oral sex, which Abrams reported to the authorities.

Jackson was first accused of child abuse in 1993 by Jordan Chandler. That accusation led to an extensive law enforcement investigation but no indictment. Jackson reportedly settled a civil lawsuit in 1994 with an undisclosed payment to Chandler's family.

On August 17, Chandler took his son to a psychiatrist, where Jordan revealed the details of Jackson’s abuse, including fondling and oral sex. Per California law, the allegations were then reported to the police, who launched an investigation into Jackson.

"In January 1994, Jackson settled the case for $23 million, with $5 million going to the family’s lawyers. Prosecutors dropped the criminal case after the boy declined to cooperate." Bananasasas (talk) 15:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Evan Chandler was the accuser. He initiated the allegations to begin with. Jordan went along with it as he was a young impressionable kid. Nonetheless, you can’t change how the information was presented in a film that does not belong to you. The film meets Wiki’s notability guidelines and is fair and balanced. The content is not twisted like some anti-Jackson websites and social media users who hide behind fake pictures and have dedicated their lives to alternative facts. The current version has been stable for a long time. It will stay as is. TruthGuardians (talk) 16:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Please quote a source that states Evan Chandler is the accuser and not his 13 year old son, Jordan Chandler. Why not include Jordan? Jordan told his psychiatrist, the police, and the court (in his civil case) that Michael Jackson molested him. The film discusses Jordan Chandler's court case with Jackson whereby he is the accuser. "On August 17, over a three-hour session, Jordan told Abrams he had been abused by Jackson that went on for several months, which included kissing, masturbation and oral sex. Jordan repeated these allegations to police and gave a description of what he alleged was Jackson's penis. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-12-18-me-3080-story.html "On August 18, the Los Angeles Police Department's Sexually Exploited Child Unit began a criminal investigation into Jackson." 2601:582:4682:5270:A876:A299:C537:A951 (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Both Evan and Jordan accused him, it's not either or. But Evan did it first, and that is not debatable, a combination of sources prove that. 1. the transcript of the July 8 recorded phone conversion. LA Superior Court , case number SC031774 . The TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CASSETTE MARKED 15 EXHIBIT NO. 10 16 D. SCHWARTZ AND E. CHANDLER FILE NO. TPA81793.MK On that tape Evan said "but I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his life -- he could be fucked up for the rest of his life" and "I have the evidence". He also said "this man would be humiliated beyond belief he's not gonna believe what will happen to him beyond his worst nightmares" "he won't sell one more record". He was accusing Jackson of harming his son in a way that if made public would "humiliate him behind belief" and would end his career. Nothing but molestation allegations could have had that effect. 2. The other source is Ray Chandler's and Evan Chandler's book All that Glitter. June Chandler's sworn declaration states Evan and Ray wrote that book together, publisher Judith Regan's statement show the Chandlers were ready to publish that book in 1994 already. In that book Evan is quoted saying on July 16 "I know about the kissing and the jerking off, so you are not telling me anything I don't already know" All that Glitter, page 91. Diane Dimond quotes Evan too "I know about the kissing the jerking off and the blow jobs" page 60 Be Careful Who you Love so does Gutierrez "I know about the kisses, the masturbation and oral sex" Michael Jackson was my lover, page 102" . all that without Jordan accusing Jackson of anything. 3. Pellicano's statement that he questioned Jordan and Jordan denied any abuse. That Pellicano talked to Jordan on July 9 is confirmed by the Chandler book. 4. Jordan's own statement to Dr. Gardner, published by Court TV, proves that he did not accuse Jackson on his own, he admitted that his father asked him if he was molested so the idea that he was did not originate with Jordan but his dad. BTW Jordan lied to Gardner, Evan in fact repeatedly asked him not just once, in fact he "went on the attack" not just simply asked him. This from a man who was caught on tape talking about how he would "win big" by "humiliating" Jackson. castorbailey (talk) 22:21, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

It's not a case of Jordan making allegations to his father and then his father using it to extort MJ. It's a case of Evan actively pressing his son to make allegations against Michael Jackson while he already hired a lawyer, asked Jackson for money, and support for his movie career before and when Jackson refused he started pressuring Jordan to make allegations against Jackson. Jordan initially said MJ didn't molest him. Only after Evan basically kidnapped him, isolated him from everyone, and pressured him to make allegations together with his shady lawyer is when Jordan started to mimic allegations that his father had been making. You can’t separate the parents from the impressionable children they forced to lie (as some from the guilt cult do in the Arvizo case as well). These allegations would not exist without these shady parents’ greed for money. I’ll give you 2 sources: Square One and All that Glitters. Thanks for exposing your IP address. Good day. TruthGuardians (talk) 08:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

First off, Your claim that there was extortion is false. Simple research proves this. Secondly, your comment "Thanks for exposing your IP address" needs explaining. Is there a reason I should hide it and what are you implying? You have given me a source that I watched, mainly this film. It does acknowledge my point that Jordan Chandler, who was the 13 year old boy that reported abuse to his psychiatrist, the police, and said same in his court case of 1993, is the official accuser. Naming anybody else is an opinion as it is not official and unsourced. It is also your opinion that there was extortion, no such case was ever filed with the courts and a complaint to the police was filed only after an article in the press addressed there was no official accusation. "Jackson’s advisers lodged a complaint with the Police Department, however, only after The Times reported that one had not been filed." “We’ve declined to file today criminal charges of attempted extortion,” said Michael J. Montagna, a deputy Los Angeles County district attorney who heads that office’s organized crime unit. “The evidence does not show that any crime has been committed.” Thirdly, you are accusing a father of kidnapping his son. This is not a word that doesn't require proof such as police report. Do you have proof of this kidnapping?

Finally, "All that Glitters" was written by Jordan's uncle and uses the direct quote on the back of the book (from what I see) from Jordan to his psychiatrist in 1993,"He (Michael) said that we had a little box, and this was a secret - and it's a box that only he and I could share. You put the secret in the box and nobody can know about what's in the box but him and me. He said that we weren't conditioned, but if this box were revealed to other people, like regular people of today's society, they're conditioned and so they would believe it was wrong. And so that's why I shouldn't reveal what's in the box." I haven't see more quotes from this book and if you plan to quote it, do so. The quote the book displays does reinforce that Jordan is the accuser. Good day?

Extortion is not “false” extortion was just not proven or disproven in a court of law. It is known knowledge that the only reason why extortion was dropped because Jackson attorneys sought to file such charges too late and a settlement was still being considered, per the exact same LATimes article you shared (also see 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson ). The article verbatim says, “Montagna cited the Jackson camp’s slowness to act on the extortion claim and its willingness to negotiate with the boy’s father for several weeks as two reasons why prosecutors did not bring an extortion case. Montagna also said the discussions between Jackson’s representatives and Barry K. Rothman, the attorney for the boy’s father at that time, appeared to be attempts to settle a possible civil case, not efforts to extort money.“ Of course anyone working to prove a case in ones favor would claim no proof to extort. To imply that extortion was “false” is to imply that it was proven as such or that you have some insider knowledge that’s not known to anyone else. The kidnapping claim above is admitted hyperbole, but at least I’m not attempting falsely accusing a 14-time acquitted, FBI investigated, dead man unable to defend himself. While Evan may not be the actual legal accuser, there are plenty of sources that suggest that the allegations are his and not Jordan. Hence the reason why Square One exists.TruthGuardians (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Bananasasas (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Bananasasas. Per WP:STICKTOTHESOURCES, you are right to stick to what the sources state. On Misplaced Pages, that's what we go by for material such as this rather than personal opinions (such as whether a claim is false or a child was pressured to make a false statement). A number of the Jackson articles are contentious articles and this area is under discretionary sanctions; see Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Michael Jackson. You have to be careful editing these articles. Make sure that you don't engage in WP:Edit warring, for example. With regard to disputes, you can look to WP:Dispute resolution. QEDK and NinjaRobotPirate have enforced the discretionary sanctions thus far. No one should be focusing on your IP in the above way, by the way. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@TruthGuardians: do not post defamatory smears like that again, please. From what I can tell, Evan Chandler is no longer alive. That means WP:BLP doesn't apply, but the general sanctions certainly do. I have no idea who made what accusations or what the documentary says about them. However, if the documentary includes opinion and commentary, this can be included and attributed to the documentary. For example: "The documentary says that X made the claim of Y because of Z." Forum-style rants on talk pages are disallowed, as is edit warring (repeatedly undoing others' edits). NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

can we also get reactivate protections for all of Michael Jackson articles? That would be great. These accounts popping up with their first edit ever on Jackson topic is why they were enacted in the past. That’s exactly what we have here. TruthGuardians (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

1. http://www.lacourt.org/CaseSummary/UI/casesummary.aspx?caseNumber=SC031774
2. https://i.postimg.cc/rp8zxZcp/june-declaration.jpg
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQYeNfHVBtM
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd3HXL5O7ew&t=56s
5. http://web.archive.org/web/20050113024305/http://courttv.com/news/jackson/docs/psychiatric.html?page=30

• Start-Class film articles
• Start-Class Documentary films articles
• Documentary films task force articles
• Start-Class American cinema articles
• American cinema task force articles
• WikiProject Film articles
• Start-Class Michael Jackson articles
• Unknown-importance Michael Jackson articles
• WikiProject Michael Jackson articles