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Elements

Initiated by CaptainEek ⚓ at 21:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Involved parties

• CaptainEek (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
• Sandbh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Double sharp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• DePiep (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Notified Double sharp
• Notified Sandbh
• Notified DePiep, added after filing

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• First ANI thread in August
• Second ANI thread, about ELEM in general More trouble with Sandbh and also User:DePiep. I am not making DePiep a party to the case at time of filing, but I do wonder if more than just Sandbh and Double Sharp are the problem here
• The third and almost productive trip to ANI
• The fourth time at ANI
• A fifth! journey to ANI. If only you got free airline miles for that many trips
• One of several threads where EdChem gallantly tried to mediate

Statement by CaptainEek

WikiProject Elements has had a number of issues recently. The most intractable currently is between Sandbh and Double Sharp. I don't honestly understand the crux of the issue, but I know there is one. The dispute has been to WP:ANI some FIVE different times. The third trip to boards was almost productive...before both Sandbh and Double Sharp starting posting just absurd WP:WALLS of text. The third thread was closed on the 11th (yesterday) with the recommendation that it was too complex for the community and that it go to ArbCom. Neither participant has listened to that request, and each of them opened a new ANI thread in the last 24 or so hours, each of which has been closed and the participant told to go to ArbCom. But seeing as neither listened when they were told it previously, I am shortcutting and directly reporting both of them. I do not believe that I have been previously been a party to the dispute, and have only commented on one of the ANI threads. This has gone beyond the ability of the community to solve the issue, and I hope the ArbCom word limit will be of much use here. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

At the suggestion of Nick, I have added DePiep as a party. CaptainEek ⚓ 22:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The astute Levivich has pointed out that I missed two ANI threads, which brings the total count up to a whopping seven: a report from July that saw no outside involvement, and another thread with Sandbh, Double sharp, and DePiep from September CaptainEek ⚓ 04:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Sandbh

Statement by Double sharp

Statement by DePiep

Statement by Nick

I'd suggest adding DePiep as an involved party - they have a long history of low level tendentious editing which should be examined, though I would doubt there's anything in their involvement here which rises to the level of being seriously sanctionable. Nick (talk) 21:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

Please accept this case. I closed thread #3 on WP:ANI when it grew so long that uninvolved editors started posting desperate pleas to close the thread. Once a thread grows to a certain size, the only people who will read and comment are the disputants themselves. Uninvolved community members simply will not invest the time to read hundreds of kilobytes of redundant, convoluted and irrelevant argumentation. These disputants will benefit from the structure provided by arbitration. Jehochman 22:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

What's this about?

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Elements - permalink

Key witnesses:

• @EdChem, R8R, YBG, and Narky Blert: please comment.

Relevant essays and articles:

• WP:BIKESHED - Summarizing EdChem below: There are different ways to decorate the periodic table and classify elements, but the reliable sources contradict each other. Jehochman's thoughts: I think we will need to have an RFC to establish a style guide so that Misplaced Pages can maintain consistency from page to page so as not to confuse the reader. Meanwhile, editors will have to check their egos at the door because everyone is not going to get their favorite colors and layout. Jehochman 04:59, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• A very different periodic table which cites Alternative periodic tables

• PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS: LANL - the closest thing to a standard that I can find. This is "A Resource for Elementary, Middle School, and High School Students", which means it should be suitable for a general audience such as Misplaced Pages readers. If anybody is an advanced chemistry student, they will know where else to look to find more advanced information. ArbCom can't impose a standard, of course. This is a suggestion that might help us all find a path forward from this dispute. Jehochman 14:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Much to my surprise, I NAC-closed the first ANI as a content dispute, but in glossing the subsequent reports, it seems to me that behavioral issues have come into the foreground, which puts it into ArbCom's territory. I urge the committee to accept the case to deal with those issues, as I don't believe that any other mechanism will be useful, since they lack arbitration's capacity to structure the case and strictly limit the participants' obvious verbosity. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Deepfriedokra

• Please accept. What Jehochman and Beyond My Ken said. I went cross-eyed trying to read #3. These are obviously very bright people, but they need structure to focus their thoughts and to help them sift this. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 00:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• @KrakatoaKatie: Thanks for that. I feel less dumb now. Made no sense of all that. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 02:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• In reply to Guy Macon, I think the hope of this being solved at ANI is overly optimistic and I think it is too late for that. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• It has come to my attention that DePiep sometimes flies of the handle and refactors the posts of others and does not always deal well with legitimate concerns about such being brought to their attention. (Granted, the source of their irritation in this instance is often seen as irritating.) I note that DePiep is under an editing restriction that may have been violated by their recent behavior toward others. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Mr rnddude

I have archived that behemoth thread. You can reference it here. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:45, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Guy Macon

I have been watching this ongoing dumpster fire but have not commented on the pages involved because I too do not understand what the dispute is about. I have one suggestion: instruct the clerks to revert any statement by anyone on this page that goes over 550 words (the extra 10% is in case they are using a different word count tool).

Edit ...and of course less than half an hour after I wrote the above, EdChem posted a hugely insightful statement that comes in at 1672 words, every one of which I would keep.

--Guy Macon (talk) 04:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC) Edited 07:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by EdChem

I first saw this dispute near the end of September. At that time, one of the ANI threads was running and there was a dispute over the blurb for the TFA for October 9, 2020. The blurb's history shows some disputes, culminating when Amakuru said on September 28 to "OK stop edit warring on this already". Correcting mis-spelling of Amakuru's username – my apologies! – and re-signing to generate ping. EdChem (talk) 04:46, 13 November 2020 (UTC) The talk page section where I began contributing was productive and collegial. I didn't edit the other threads, which were clearly more problematic, but I know now that the picture thread touches on an area that has seen dispute over several years. I implemented the consensus version (diff from Amaruku's revert) on October 6 and it is the version that ran (aside from minor formatting changes). I was optimistic from the experience that I could help with some of the broader issues.

A lot can be said here, but I think (oddly, for ArbCom) that the most helpful comment that I can offer first is some background on the content issues.

• The periodic table can be shown with 18 columns (and with the f-block of 14 or 15 columns below) or in a 32 column format as a single table. In both versions there are disagreements both on WP and in the literature as to where to place the elements lanthanum, actinium, lutetium, and lawrencium (symbols: La, Ac, Lu, and Lr, respectively).
• In the 18 column version, there are three options:
  1. Place La and Ac as the first elements of the two periods (rows) of the f-block, with Lu and Lr in the main part of the table as the two elements below scandium (Sc) and yttrium (Y) in the d-block – as can be seen in File:14LaAc_periodic_table_IIb.jpg.
  2. Place La and Ac as the first elements of the d-block, under Sc and Y, and ending the two periods of the f-block with Lu and Lr – as can be seen in File:14LaAc_periodic_table.jpg.
  3. Place all four elements La, Ac, Lu, and Lr in the f-block, which is consequently 15 elements wide (as opposed to 14 elements wide in the above two cases), and placing markers of * and ** below Sc and Y, placing the entire f-block below those two elements – along the lines of File:15LaAc_with_LaAc_in_group_3.jpg
• Similar versions exist of the 32 column versions, such as:
  1. La and Ac with the f-block, Lu and Lr in the d-block under Sc and Y - see File:32-column_periodic_table-sr.png
  2. La and AC under Sc and Y with the d-block, Lu and Lr in the f-block - see File:32-column_periodic_table-a.svg
  3. La, Ac, Lu, and Lr all below Sc and Y - see File:32_column_stretched_periodic_table.jpg
• Textbooks and the literature use a mixture of all of these versions. Some authors and contributors to the literature see the correct placement of these elements as being incredibly important and argue strongly for one version or another. Sometimes the criteria used to decide which is correct or preferred overlap, sometimes they are weighted differently, sometimes they are notably different criteria. I have colleagues who are inorganic chemists who view that La and Ac in the d-block was a historic presentation but that the 'correct' table has Lu and Lr and the d-block... and that the matter is largely settled. I have colleagues (particularly organic chemists) who know little about there being a dispute, and care less. I know chemists who see the PT as an educational tool and will live with either of the versions with a 14-element f-block but believe that the 15-element version with "*" and "**" notation should be deprecated as a source of confusion and as misleading (how can one element in a group / column suddenly be above 15 elements?, etc).
• So, we have a content dispute over a fairly obscure area of chemistry but which sprawls onto many chemistry pages on WP (the PT appears on every element page, for example).
• The second content dispute, about which there is also no definitive answer to be found in RS, is whether and how to categorise elements and whether, once categorised, they should be coloured on PTs shown on WP. Plenty of different colouring schemes can be found in commons:Category:Periodic table. The possibilities for dispute are endless, including:
  • Are there two type of elements – metals and non-metals – or are there three, adding in a category of semi-metals. Is there general agreement on which belongs in each category? Yes... except for the edge cases where there are many views. Should categories be mutually exclusive or not? What about historical categories based on groups / columns, like the halogens – taking a halogen as anything in group 17, they are fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine, astatine, and tennessine. The first four are undisputed as halogens and as non-metals. Astatine is recognised as a halogen in mostly places, including by IUPAC, but is either a semi-metal or a metal. Tennessine is so new that we have little data on its chemistry, but it would be a shock if it turned out to be a non-metal. Similarly, organesson, the element below radon in the noble gas column, is not expected to be a gas and is predicted to be quite metallic in properties.

This content dispute was the basis for the picture dispute on the TFA blurb – what colour should each category be, should they be the same on every page, should the dashed line border (signally radioactivity on the WP full PTs) be used for a single cell / element as an illustration.

Why is this here?

• So, we have content disputes with RSs taking different approaches – hardly WP unprecedented
• We also have editors with strong views and problems with advocating for their views rather than dispassionately looking to RS – some familiar territory for ArbCom
• While there is reason to hope that a definitive answer may be found to the PT structure issue (there is an IUPAC team looking to guide a ruling), the timeframe is unclear and IUPAC rulings are sometimes accepted and followed by the scientific community and sometimes ignored / more honoured in the breach. The categorisation issue extends well beyond chemistry (remember when Pluto was a planet?) and well into philosophy.
• IMO, the extensive discussions at WT:ELEM and elsewhere have become increasingly personal. Conduct and content issues have been intertwined. Approaches to DR and the use of ANI has been ineffective, partly because of the inability to separate content from conduct. Unfortunately, content problems have also been morphing into conduct ones. The use of SYNTH and OR and limited application of DUE have led to behaviour that looks to me to be DE / TE territory. The extent to which this has invaded article space is unclear to me, though I have seen text that reads like a persuasive argument synthesising sources that is suited to the literature but should not be in article space.
• We have Sandbh who has published on these topics and brings a wealth of knowledge, but who is also heavily involved in the disagreements. He was the target of the most recent ANI mega-thread. This was closed by Jehochman as (paraphrasing) TL;DR and thus as so much noise that there was nothing to be gained by reading it in detail. This is unfortunate as the two threads sparked by the close had origins in the mega-thread that were clear to me (at least) and could have been handled better. I do not suggest any misconduct on Jehochman's part, though I do disagree with some things he said.

Hopefully, this gives some help to Arbitrators in knowing where the disputes originate. This post is largely about content to provide framing, but of course ArbCom will not rule on content. There is definitely conduct that is problematic and it has influenced content, so to that extent (and following ANI being ineffective for behavioural reasons of contributors (including me) saying so much as to make recognising how help could be provided difficult) it is not out of place at ArbCom. I have posted on my user talk page to suggest to contributors whether they will agree on a way forward that potentially avoids an ArbCom case... but how they will respond is unknown. I am certainly less optimistic than I was after the TFA blurb discussions, though I have also been encouraged by interactions with the editors. All of the named parties are knowledgeable and can add value to the encyclopaedia. The loss of any from WP:ELEM would be sad, and I hope can be avoided... but it may also be necessary.

On length: I know this is long for an WP:A/R/C submission. I have explained the content to aid the Arbitrators in understanding the underlying content dispute. I ask that the length limit be waived for this post as there have been requests for explanation and as I am the one who has been helping to moderate disputes over the last month and so have perspective on both content and conduct. I also ask that WP:ELEM contributors DePiep, Double sharp, R8R, Sandbh, YBG not comment on content here at the case request page or address my content summary unless there is something that is significantly in error. The Arbitrators don't care about the nuance of content at this point, they want to decide if there is a dispute that they can help to solve and so they are interested in content only to the extent that it helps them to understand / address conduct. EdChem (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

--- @Andrew Davidson: I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't class the periodic table article as FA or even GA... the ongoing disputes on categories have certainly adversely impacted the quality of that article, and it has other problems. I was hoping to get ELEM editors to focus on weak parts of it where there is no dispute on the science, but that has yet to yield much improvement. EdChem (talk) 14:46, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Narky Blert

I thank Jehochman for inviting me to contribute.

I became aware of this dispute from one of the WP:ANI threads; a page I watch mainly out of morbid curiosity. I am a retired organic chemist; my knowledge of inorganic chemistry is degree-level, but what I remember of it is 50 years out-of-date. I posted twice at WP:ELEM, trying to confine my remarks to policy and not to comment on the merits. I hoped that might help calm the situation; but alas! no.

I urge Arbcom to accept EdChem's lengthy submission in full. IMO it is a fair summary, and a useful primer to establish the context. As I understand it, there are two points of contention, both under active scientific debate:

• The proper placement of several elements of the periodic table, particularly in graphical representations
• Whether or not the non-metallic elements should be subdivided into two classes

I urge Arbcom to accept this case. Normal methods of dispute resolution have failed. An WP:RFC which needed a chemistry degree to understand would be unlikely to be productive. Arbcom cannot, by its role, rule on the merits. What it can do is rule on behavioural issues; and I would single out WP:BLUDGEON, WP:DROPTHESTICK, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH at least. I would not wish knowledgeable and productive editors to leave WP; but these interminable circular discussions must stop. Narky Blert (talk) 09:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Andrew D.

I commented on the ANI threads (!vote; stats). At that time, I supposed that an RfC was needed. But, now that I check further, I find that there was already an RfC in August which was closed as a trainwreck. So, a case does seem needed to resolve this. Note also that the main article in question – Periodic table – is an FA which has been featured on the main page twice. It therefore appears that the parties are trying to "gild refined gold" and so should be advised to leave well alone. See "perfect is the enemy of good". Andrew🐉(talk) 14:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by {Editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Elements: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Elements: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0>-Elements-2020-11-13T00:21:00.000Z">

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

• Awaiting further statements, but given the history, this is likely to be accepted. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)"> ">
• Also awaiting statements, but leaning accept. What I think could be very useful at this stage from the parties is a brief and succinct description of what the crux of issue is here. The ANI threads are unparseable given the walls of text: could you please try to explain the main points of the dispute (a bulleted list of, say, 5 members could work, 5 x 100 words = 500 words), without the extraneous details (these we can get to later if needed). Maxim_(talk) 00:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• I agree with Maxim that we need a short summation of the central problem. I consider myself to be relatively bright, and I have 18 hours of chemistry in my college transcript, but I can't make heads or tails of these ANI threads other than we're arguing about the periodic table somehow. If we can't understand the issues, there's going to be a serious temptation to use a belt sander where a nail file would do, and hand all these editors a blanket TBAN from chemistry-related topics, because this situation is not sustainable. To be clear: I don't want that to happen. Belt sanders are loud and messy. So help us out here and find us a way to use a nail file. Katie 02:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
• I'd like to hear from the parties before going any further, but it certainly does look like the sort of thing we should be accepting. Worm(talk) 09:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  On word limits, I do think that editors should generally keep these in mind and do their best to minimise their text output during arbcom proceedings - it does help the arbitrators understand what's going on and encourages people to focus on the heart of the issue. Personally, however, I would waiver the length limit for EdChem's "primer" above, which appears quite helpful in explaining what the underlying dispute is in less than a page of text. Thanks for that EdChem Worm(talk) 13:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)