Talk:Beyoncé: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 10:44, 1 December 2020 editBgkc4444 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,634 edits →RfC: Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the infobox?← Previous edit		Revision as of 13:29, 1 December 2020 edit undoTruthGuardians (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users2,042 edits →Votes Next edit →
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	*'''Yes''' - I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. ] (]) 22:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)		*'''Yes''' - I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. ] (]) 22:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
	*'''Yes''' - The word songwriter should be included in the infobox (and reinstated in the lead) and no qualifier should be added ] (]) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)		*'''Yes''' - The word songwriter should be included in the infobox (and reinstated in the lead) and no qualifier should be added ] (]) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
			*'''Yes''' - Editors don’t get to decided who to consider a songwriter and who is not. An artists work dictates whether or not that is true, and credible sources mentioning such determines weather or not to label an artist as a song writer. There are credible sources that says she is. Personally I’m not big on Beyoncé, I don’t know much about her. I didn’t even know she wrote songs until these sources.] (]) 13:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

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Move logs: Beyoncé Knowles
Beyoncé

Discussions:

Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, No consensus, 21 September 2007, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, No consensus, 20 March 2010, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, No consensus, 11 July 2010, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, No consensus, 7 August 2011, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, Not moved, 23 February 2012, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, Not moved, 3 February 2013, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, Not moved (speedily closed), 20 March 2013, discussion
Beyoncé Knowles → Beyoncé, Moved, 16 January 2014, discussion

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Photo of Beyoncé102020.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Why did u do it Tech bot Hewoaq (talk) 22:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Beyoncé Black Is King Still.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Robotic Clone: Please stop adding the photo which has been nominated for a speedy deletion into the article. Thanks.--LeftiePete (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually, Robotic Clone has now cleared copyright for use of this image. However, there's something still not right. Robotic Clone – whose account was created a week ago – has now tried to make this the lede image nine times – and has been reverted by 5 different human editors, plus CommonsDelinker (initially because of copyvio issues; latterly because of Beyoncé's distracting costume). The only reason Robotic Clone has ever given for preferring this image over the existing one is that it's "more recent" (by one year). Robotic Clone uploaded the image, and in clearing copyright appears to have declared that they personally created it. (I don't have access to the permission correspondence: maybe someone who does could check it out.) This is starting to look like a case of WP:COI. GrindtXX (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Copyright clearance or no clearance, the image is more a depiction of the goofy costume she is wearing than a representation of Beyoncé. For this reason it is inappropriate as her infobox image. -- WikiPedant (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Why are u so negative Hewoaq (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Please restore it Hewoaq (talk) 22:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Queen Bey Camcam1234 (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -ink&fables «talk» 11:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

The lead of Lady Gaga's article (a featured article) says: "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta (/ˈstɛfəni ˌdʒɜːrməˈnɒtə/ STEF-ən-ee JUR-mə-NOT-ə) (born March 28, 1986), known professionally as Lady Gaga, is an American singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman."

Beyoncé is also known for being a singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman. If the lead of Lady Gaga's article is not seen as promotional, I do not understand why would adding "songwriter, record producer and businesswoman" to the lead of Beyoncé's article be so, esp. since Beyoncé definitely fulfills all those roles.

As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. I'd add the three titles mentioned above or at least "songwriter" to the lead, once again, regardless of songwriting controversies. Beyoncé was awarded for her songwriting, and in "May 2011, Billboard magazine listed Beyoncé at number 17 on their list of the Top 20 Hot 100 Songwriters for having co-written eight singles that hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 chart."

Note (regarding the 'Songwriting credits' section): The article says: "The controversy surrounding her songwriting credits began with interviews in which she attributed herself as the songwriter for songs in which she was a co-writer or for which her contributions were marginal. In a cover story for Vanity Fair in 2005, she claimed to have "written" several number-one songs for Destiny's Child, contrary to the credits, which list her as a co-writer among others."

It is common for artists to say they "wrote a song" when they actually mean they "co-wrote" a song. They say they "wrote" the song for short, but in Beyoncé's case, it is assumed she was of bad faith... And it is not too uncommon for certain artists to receive a songwriting credit for "marginal" contributions. For these reasons, I am questioning the relevance of parts of that section. qedk, TruthGuardians, MaJic, GiuliaZB, JG66, BD2412 what do you think?

EDIT: I now see that consensus was recently reached to remove "songwriter" from the lead, but that does not apply to the Infobox. Israell (talk) 00:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I see that an editor added "record producer", which I approve. Israell (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The lead sentence of Madonna's article also has the same problem. Here's the discussion: . I'd add those professions back myself, but I'd rather some consensus is reached. Israell (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

There was a consensus of "no" about this earlier --> Talk:Beyoncé/Archive_13#Should_she_be_defined_as_a_songwriter_in_the_lead? isento (talk) 22:26, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Relevant guideline: In general, a position, activity, or role should not be included in the lead paragraph if: a) the role is not otherwise discussed in the lead (per MOS:LEAD, don't tease the reader), b) the role is not significantly covered in the body of the article, or, c) the role is auxiliary to a main profession of the person ... (Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Biography#cite_note-1) isento (talk) 22:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

isento, consensus applied to the lead, not the Infobox. Songwriting is definitely one of Beyoncé's main professions, and that is well-documented. As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. The Infobox must therefore display it.

"Barely does production, and definitely not known for it." Not true. Barely? Beyoncé produced all of her studio albums, all of her live albums, most of her singles, etc. Beyoncé is quite known for production (song production, executive production, concerts/live album production, etc.), it's well-documented, and she has her own production company, Parkwood Entertainment. Some sources out of many more: . Israell (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

So as I see it, and I’m sure there may be more experienced editors, the info box must match what’s in the article. If consensus was reached to remove “song writer” from the lead, that doesn’t necessarily mean to remove it from info box, especially if mentioned throughout the article as being a songwriter. TruthGuardians (talk) 15:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, regarding a comment written by isento on the linked archived talk page, it is not true that an artist that has exclusively co-written songs is not a songwriter but only a co-writer or "part-song-writer." The article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. Israell (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The article does not make that clear. In fact, the only source supporting that section does not even use the term "songwriter" in its prose. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize the essentials of the article. It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it, while those that don't are merely industry awards or accolades with no insight into it. isento (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not going to sift thru all those citations (WP:REFBOMB) to verify your claims about her association with production (please quote relevant text). But in response to your claim in the recent edit summary, her songwriting is as well documented as it is well disputed. isento (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no discussion in the article of her record production. There are credits in album articles, but there is no insight into what she actually does. And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails, I believe. isento (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we can reach a compromise and use Musician instead of songwriter or producer. A musician can do a variety of things but not be defined necessarily by one of those things. There is discussion of her singing and musicianship in a broad sense, so I would support "Singer and musician". isento (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Beyoncé is credited for co-writing nearly all of her solo songs as well as most of the Destiny's Child songs. Beyoncé currently has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP. Here's the list: https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/writer/341826274/KNOWLES%20BEYONCE%20GISSELLE. Beyoncé Knowles is therefore a songwriter. I am aware of the controversy, the allegations, but that does not negate the fact she has co-written the vast majority of her songs. It is possible certain songs were written and she barely modified them, but that does not mean it is always the case. It is not up to Misplaced Pages to speculate and determine if Beyoncé Knowles is a "real" songwriter or not. People may have their opinion, but the fact she has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP is verifiable. For instance, some people may not consider certain singers "real singers" or "real vocalists", but Misplaced Pages will still call them "singers" and "vocalists."

Britney has 72 song credits on BMI , much less than Beyoncé, and she is credited as a songwriter on Misplaced Pages. Mandy Moore, Debbie Gibson, Nicki Minaj, Rihanna, Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown, Ava Max, Dua Lipa, Lily Allen, Christina Aguilera, P!nk, Solange Knowles (Beyoncé's sister), Farrah Franklin (formerly of Destiny's Child), Kim Petras and many more recording artists on Misplaced Pages are defined as songwriters in the lead of their articles or at least the infobox of said articles. Once again, Misplaced Pages is about WP:V, and it is not up to us editors to make a judgement call on whether or not Beyoncé is indeed a songwriter in spite of verifiable registered ASCAP songwriting credits. Israell (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

As for the sources I've listed earlier, they pertain to her song production, concert/live album production, soundtrack album production, movie production, etc. Israell (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

It is up to editors to make judgement calls. All the ASCAP source proves is she's been credited. It is not an independent source. isento (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Israell: Thanks for taking this up and good luck with it! @Isento: There was no consensus reached previously so I don't know where you got that from. As I have previously said, you cherry-picked negative comments from completely random musicians instead of the larger number of positive comments from her actual collaborators that fully explained her songwriting ability and style. "It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it" and "And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails" are just more of your unsubstantiated and incorrect assertions. I once again hope you act correctly and do the right thing for this section. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Eight people said "no". Two said "yes". Sounds like a consensus to me. isento (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Besides, the consensus did not apply to the Infobox. Beyoncé has 346 legal, official songwriting credits. Whether one considers her a "real" songwriter or not is irrelevant in that section of the article. I agree w/ Bgkc4444. Israell (talk) 00:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry you overlooked the large block of text below and adjacent to those votes. But that constituted discussion. isento (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not disputing the relevancy of songwriting credits. I am saying there were valid objections from as many, if not more, editors than you two in the previous discussion, which you are dismissing on the technicality that it did not specify the infobox. Unless I am mistaken, the heading of this section includes "lead", does it not? isento (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the clear controversy surrounding the songwriting credits -- non-independent-source testimonials notwithstanding -- demands this discussion be more nuanced than what you're providing it. This is an encyclopedia, not merely an office of public records. Articles are to be based largely on third-party sources, and while there are industry accolades, passing mentions of her as a songwriter, and organizational records, there are also more in-depth-coverage articles focusing squarely on her songwriting and questions surrounding it, and we ought to use the best sources on the particular topic being discussed (WP:STICKTOSOURCE). Negative comments were not "cherry-picked from random musicians". If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions (Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines#Central_points). isento (talk) 01:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You are free to disagree with my ideas and conclusions as it pertains to the content being discussed. But stop suggesting I'm acting incorrectly. I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially if I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from. Start another RfC, poll more editors, reach a new consensus, etc, if you don't like where I'm arriving at. isento (talk) 01:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

And please stop bringing up other articles (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). I'm not in charge of potential errors elsewhere and cannot be expected to answer for them, especially when these pop-icon articles tend to attract overzealous fans who tend to lose sight of editorial judgement... isento (talk) 01:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@Isento: That did not constitute discussion. The only people who engaged in discussion (and not just voted with their opinion) were Timeheist, you and me. As WP:PNSD says: "Misplaced Pages works by building consensus. When conflicts arise, they are resolved through discussion, debate and collaboration. While not forbidden, polls should be used with care. When polls are used, they should ordinarily be considered a means to help in determining consensus, but do not let them become your only determining factor. While polling forms an integral part of several processes (such as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion), polls are generally not used for article development. Remember that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy; even when polls appear to be "votes", most decisions on Misplaced Pages are made on the basis of consensus, not on vote-counting or majority rule. In summary, polling is not a substitute for discussion."

Negative comments were cherry-picked from random musicians. In what world does a Reddit user telling a songwriter - who never even worked with Beyonce before - an unsubstantiated (and false) claim about Beyonce's songwriting and asking her thoughts on that "fact" constitute a reliable source of commentary on Beyonce's songwriting style? I can no longer tell whether you are doing this on purpose or you still don't see it, but do you not agree that it would be much better to fill the section about Beyonce's songwriting style with material that explains how Beyonce writes songs (i.e. her collaborative approach) using reliable sources from people who are actually privy to such information, instead of including it with comments from random musicians just because they support the "Beyonce can't write and is a thief" claim you so desperately want to include?

"If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions" - No idea where you got that from?

"I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from" - Is this meant to be a joke? You never elucidated your concerns thoughtfully. I even asked you to clarify what your concerns were in the previous discussion yet you never answered nor actually responded to my points, and instead continued with your typical personal attacks and insults on my intelligence. Bgkc4444 (talk) 11:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow, look at you tell me. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

When I started this discussion, I mentioned the lead because I had not seen the previous discussion (regarding the "songwriter" title in the lead). The discussion then shifted the infobox. I have listed 15 recording artists who are defined as "songwriters" in the lead or at least the infobox of their respective articles.

Also, as explained earlier, Gaga is defined in the lead (and also the infobox) of her (featured) article as a "singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman." As for Miley Cyrus, she is defined in the lead and the infobox of her article as a "singer, songwriter, actress, and record producer." As for Kylie Minogue, she is defined in the lead and the infobox of her article as a "singer, songwriter, actress, record producer and television judge." Are those artists known for generally producing records for other artists? No. As for Beyoncé, she not only produced all of her own solo albums, all of her solo songs, she also produced all of Destiny's Child's studio albums (many songs) except for the first one.

. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You'll notice that bandmates Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams, just like Beyoncé, all have songwriting credits on Destiny_Fulfilled, Destiny's Child last studio album. Are we going to assume those are all stolen or bought credits, that they only changed one word or one note every time? Yes, suspicions were raised by some about Beyoncé's songwriting credits, and the article does cover such suspicions, but it doesn't negate the verifiable and well-documented fact Beyoncé is indeed a professional, regular songwriter and record producer. Besides, the songwriting credits section of the article does have comments from professional who agree Beyoncé does indeed write her songs. Israell (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

According to Lindsey Weber of Vulture (the source citing that "unsubstantiated claim"), "Despite having songwriting credits all over her new album, it’s open knowledge that Bey doesn't really write her own songs". Doesn't feel like an "unsubstantiated claim". Perry's response was to the spirit of that idea. Perry is among the industry's most prolific songwriters. I don't see how she is less reliable or relevant than a source who's worked closely with Beyonce, which according to our guidelines is a source we should depend on less, if at all in a bio, because it's not an independent source (WP:BASIC). isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

If I were to compile 346 parking tickets, that would not make me a professional criminal. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Please just open an RfC. You pinged other editors here, I noticed above, but this unstructured mess of a discussion is hardly enticing to an uninvolved editor. If you feel I'm so wrong and unapproachable, then stop pinging me and open something more formal for others to talk to you. isento (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting that you agree that Beyonce's collaborators are "the most reliable source for songwriting" and believe they should be used in the article, but only when they support your personal opinion that Beyonce should not be considered a songwriter, instead of also believing so in the case of the majority of her collaborators who have detailed her songwriting. And why do you believe that Lindsey Weber of Vulture is a perfectly acceptable reliable source for such a contentious claim about a living person? "Perry is among the industry's most prolific songwriters"? Why does that matter? If someone tells a "prolific songwriter" a lie about Beyonce and then asks her thoughts, in what world can that be considered a reliable enough source to make such a contentious claim about a living person, instead of using sources that are actually informed of her songwriting? Writing a songwriting section shouldn't be that hard if an editor is approaching it from a neutral point of view, but if one is so hell-bent on trying to paint Beyonce as a thief then of course the editor would insert an indiscriminate collection of opinions that support their belief from every random musician or journalist they can find. I hope that's not what you're doing here and, again, hope that you do the right thing for this topic. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I never said I agreed with what you are linking. I said: "Thanks. I've included that in the article." So far, you have been the only person I know of here to mention Beyonce and "thief" in the same sentence. Maybe you mistook "thanks" as agreeing, when I was just being polite. But I can see how that would go over your head... isento (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to stoop to your level with your typical insults to my intelligence because I guess it makes a change from the obscene rants filled with personal attacks, profanity, sexism and ableism? And yes, you literally added the word "theft" to the article. And no, you missed the point. You agreed with that comment not because you said "thank you" but because you listened to it. If the people who actually know about Beyonce's songwriting from their experience with her are unreliable sources, as you now claim, why did you add the Fusari claim, among others? Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Ohhhh. Okay. Then I apologize for actually listening to an editor's comments in a talk page discussion. I will refrain from listening to any further editor comments here. Thank you for enlightening. So so sorry for my misapprehension that we should actually listen to each other in talk page discussions. I am overcome with immense guilt and profusely apologize for my abhorrent behavior. I should be punished. Perhaps a spanking is in order? isento (talk) 22:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

isento typed in regards to Beyoncé's 346 ASCAP-registered songwriting credits: "If I were to compile 346 parking tickets, that would not make me a professional criminal.", "It is up to editors to make judgement calls." Timeheist, Bgkc4444, NinjaRobotPirate, qedk, BD2412, what do you think of such a tone? Israell (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Note: For now, I am simply asking that "songwriter" remain the infobox since Beyoncé has 346 ASCAP-registered songwriting credits and it is well-documented she is indeed a songwriter. I see no use for an RfC. Suspicions raised by some over her songwriting as well as the praises she's received for her songwriting are mentioned in the "Songwriting section" of the article. Israell (talk) 17:09, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the infobox?

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I am opening this in response to the above discussion, which has become untenable and messy. For the sake of the RfC's integrity, please restrict votes to "yes" or "no" and the like, and leave explanatory comments in #Discussion, where they can be discussed among participants. Thank you. isento (talk) 15:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Votes

Conditional yes - Accompany it with a footnote saying she has never been credited as the sole writer for a song. isento (talk) 22:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes - I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. Israell (talk) 22:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes - The word songwriter should be included in the infobox (and reinstated in the lead) and no qualifier should be added Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Yes - Editors don’t get to decided who to consider a songwriter and who is not. An artists work dictates whether or not that is true, and credible sources mentioning such determines weather or not to label an artist as a song writer. There are credible sources that says she is. Personally I’m not big on Beyoncé, I don’t know much about her. I didn’t even know she wrote songs until these sources.TruthGuardians (talk) 13:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

I object to this RfC as there was already one pertaining to the lead just three months ago. Besides, there is no use for one more RfC. NinjaRobotPirate, qedk, if there were one more RfC, it should for now only pertain to the infobox. Some editors may oppose to "songwriter" being in the lead but not the infobox. The way the question is formulated, it could lead editors to vote "No" for the infobox just because they'd vote "No" for the lead. Israell (talk) 16:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

As I've explained earlier, Beyoncé has 346 ASCAP-registered song credits, she's been awarded for her songwriting and has received other accolades for it. Besides, some of her collaborators have confirmed she does indeed co-write her songs. The songwriting credits section of the article does address allegations raised by some pertaining to Beyoncé's songwriting, and allegations should not determine what's in the infobox. It is par of the course for recording artists who consistently write and/or co-write songs (for themselves and/or others) to be defined as songwriters in the infobox of their respective articles. "Songwriter" must remain in the infobox of Beyoncé's article. As for the lead sentence, I have no objection to the addition of "songwriter." Israell (talk) 20:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

One of her collaborators is quoted in the article as bringing doubts to her credits: Tedder vaguely questioned the ethics of her possible "demand" for a writing credit in other instances. And she has never been credited as the sole writer. If we were the keep it, I would agree to it if there could be a footnote beside it saying so. isento (talk) 22:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. That said, as I explained earlier, Misplaced Pages's article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. A songwriter is a songwriter, whether or not they ever got a sole songwriting credit. To my knowledge, (this is not a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) no Misplaced Pages article for a recording artist has such a criterion (a footnote if the artist never had a sole songwriting credit). This is a Misplaced Pages article, not a trial case w/ Beyoncé put on the stand for allegedly stealing credits and editors making a judgement call on whether or not she is a real songwriter, whether or not her 346 ASCAP-registered credits (WP:V) have merit. The infobox pertains to her occupations, and her one of her very main occupations is that of songwriter, period. Israell (talk) 04:00, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a mention of Beyonce as a "top-liner" (). She's been credited as an executive producer too, but we practice editorial discretion based on other factors beyond simple credits. That is why I previously suggested "Musician" as a compromise, or just a footnote here given what's been reported. Are there other articles on artists who's credits have been disputed or questioned by sources, both independent and dependent? isento (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, I am merely one voter. The better judgements usually prevail in these discussions. So if it is yours, feel confident other voters will just say yes. Also, fyi, a while back before the last RfC, I believe I had added such a footnote as a compromise to "songwriter" remaining in the lead ... isento (talk) 05:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I am leaning towards "no", given the concerns and opinions posted at an earlier RfC covering the same question in regards to the lead. But my thinking has been exhausted by the discussion above and would prefer to hear from other editors first at the moment. isento (talk) 19:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce is considered a songwriter by reliable sources and so that should be included in the infobox, as well as in the lead, but Isento removed it in the lead despite no consensus being reached. Regarding a footnote, in no way does an artist having co-writers mean that they are not a songwriter. That's a view belonging to an editor, not reliable sources or the songwriting article. It's one thing if there are claims about ghostwriters - and many artists are faced with claims about ghostwriters and yet there is no footnote in their articles - but saying an artist uses writing camps in no negates their status as a songwriter nor warrants a qualifier just because an editor believes that Beyonce should be seen as stealing credits and not writing her songs. Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

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