Talk:Józef Franczak: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 01:13, 14 December 2020 editPiotrus (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers286,455 edits →Poleszak article: new section← Previous edit		Revision as of 01:33, 14 December 2020 edit undoBuidhe (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors136,150 edits →Poleszak article: Replying to Piotrus (using reply-link)Next edit →
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	I can't find content in it that supports the stated claim ("arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust") in the source . On the contrary it states "Dlatego też na podstawie materiału zgromadzone-go w śledztwie nie sposób z pełną odpowiedzialnością wskazać bezpośrednich sprawców oddania Szmula Helfmana niemieckim żandarmom". and latter suggests that it is likely that the weak evidence in this case was manipulated/faked by the authorities: "Należałoby się zastanowić, czy poddany analizie materiał jest jednostronny i był gromadzony przez funkcjonariuszy UB, by obciążyć i zdepre-cjonować konspiratora, którego przez długie powojenne lata nie mogli schwytać. Wydaje się, że taka uwaga może zostać uznana za zasadną jedynie w przypad-ku podejrzenia o współodpowiedzialność za wydanie niemieckiej żandarme-rii Szmula Helfmana. Przypomnę, że tylko zeznania Franciszka Becia obciążały Franczaka współodpowiedzialnością za ten czyn." If anything, we could add to the article that the communist government concluded he did so, but that claim has been challenged by modern research. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</sub> 01:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)		I can't find content in it that supports the stated claim ("arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust") in the source . On the contrary it states "Dlatego też na podstawie materiału zgromadzone-go w śledztwie nie sposób z pełną odpowiedzialnością wskazać bezpośrednich sprawców oddania Szmula Helfmana niemieckim żandarmom". and latter suggests that it is likely that the weak evidence in this case was manipulated/faked by the authorities: "Należałoby się zastanowić, czy poddany analizie materiał jest jednostronny i był gromadzony przez funkcjonariuszy UB, by obciążyć i zdepre-cjonować konspiratora, którego przez długie powojenne lata nie mogli schwytać. Wydaje się, że taka uwaga może zostać uznana za zasadną jedynie w przypad-ku podejrzenia o współodpowiedzialność za wydanie niemieckiej żandarme-rii Szmula Helfmana. Przypomnę, że tylko zeznania Franciszka Becia obciążały Franczaka współodpowiedzialnością za ten czyn." If anything, we could add to the article that the communist government concluded he did so, but that claim has been challenged by modern research. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</sub> 01:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
			:It seems awfully rich to complain that you need a better source for a tweet (!) or well known, not contested by anyone, present memory practices, when most of this article has no sources at all. Nevertheless, even if it can't be proven exactly what happened, Poleszak suggests that fear of being prosecuted may well be a factor in Franczak's actions. Read the last few pages of the article. (] · ]) ''']''' 01:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:33, 14 December 2020

A fact from Józef Franczak appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 June 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Józef Franczak, last of the cursed soldiers, was a resistance fighter for over half his life?

A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2007/June.

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What is his birth date?

Was he born on March 17, 1918, March 25, 1918, May 25, 1918, or March 17, 1919?

The first sentence says "17 March 1918".

The Infobox Person says "17 March 1919".

The first sentence in the Biography section says "March 25, 1918".

I think this page (JÓZEF FRANCZAK (1918–1963) ) says "25 May 1918".

Chuck Coker (talk) 01:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

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Poleszak article

I can't find content in it that supports the stated claim ("arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust") in the source . On the contrary it states "Dlatego też na podstawie materiału zgromadzone-go w śledztwie nie sposób z pełną odpowiedzialnością wskazać bezpośrednich sprawców oddania Szmula Helfmana niemieckim żandarmom". and latter suggests that it is likely that the weak evidence in this case was manipulated/faked by the authorities: "Należałoby się zastanowić, czy poddany analizie materiał jest jednostronny i był gromadzony przez funkcjonariuszy UB, by obciążyć i zdepre-cjonować konspiratora, którego przez długie powojenne lata nie mogli schwytać. Wydaje się, że taka uwaga może zostać uznana za zasadną jedynie w przypad-ku podejrzenia o współodpowiedzialność za wydanie niemieckiej żandarme-rii Szmula Helfmana. Przypomnę, że tylko zeznania Franciszka Becia obciążały Franczaka współodpowiedzialnością za ten czyn." If anything, we could add to the article that the communist government concluded he did so, but that claim has been challenged by modern research. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

It seems awfully rich to complain that you need a better source for a tweet (!) or well known, not contested by anyone, present memory practices, when most of this article has no sources at all. Nevertheless, even if it can't be proven exactly what happened, Poleszak suggests that fear of being prosecuted may well be a factor in Franczak's actions. Read the last few pages of the article. (t · c) buidhe 01:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Categories:

Revision as of 01:13, 14 December 2020 editPiotrus (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers286,455 edits →Poleszak article: new section← Previous edit		Revision as of 01:33, 14 December 2020 edit undoBuidhe (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors136,150 edits →Poleszak article: Replying to Piotrus (using reply-link)Next edit →
Line 48:		Line 48:

	I can't find content in it that supports the stated claim ("arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust") in the source . On the contrary it states "Dlatego też na podstawie materiału zgromadzone-go w śledztwie nie sposób z pełną odpowiedzialnością wskazać bezpośrednich sprawców oddania Szmula Helfmana niemieckim żandarmom". and latter suggests that it is likely that the weak evidence in this case was manipulated/faked by the authorities: "Należałoby się zastanowić, czy poddany analizie materiał jest jednostronny i był gromadzony przez funkcjonariuszy UB, by obciążyć i zdepre-cjonować konspiratora, którego przez długie powojenne lata nie mogli schwytać. Wydaje się, że taka uwaga może zostać uznana za zasadną jedynie w przypad-ku podejrzenia o współodpowiedzialność za wydanie niemieckiej żandarme-rii Szmula Helfmana. Przypomnę, że tylko zeznania Franciszka Becia obciążały Franczaka współodpowiedzialnością za ten czyn." If anything, we could add to the article that the communist government concluded he did so, but that claim has been challenged by modern research. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</sub> 01:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)		I can't find content in it that supports the stated claim ("arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust") in the source . On the contrary it states "Dlatego też na podstawie materiału zgromadzone-go w śledztwie nie sposób z pełną odpowiedzialnością wskazać bezpośrednich sprawców oddania Szmula Helfmana niemieckim żandarmom". and latter suggests that it is likely that the weak evidence in this case was manipulated/faked by the authorities: "Należałoby się zastanowić, czy poddany analizie materiał jest jednostronny i był gromadzony przez funkcjonariuszy UB, by obciążyć i zdepre-cjonować konspiratora, którego przez długie powojenne lata nie mogli schwytać. Wydaje się, że taka uwaga może zostać uznana za zasadną jedynie w przypad-ku podejrzenia o współodpowiedzialność za wydanie niemieckiej żandarme-rii Szmula Helfmana. Przypomnę, że tylko zeznania Franciszka Becia obciążały Franczaka współodpowiedzialnością za ten czyn." If anything, we could add to the article that the communist government concluded he did so, but that claim has been challenged by modern research. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]\|]</sub> 01:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
			:It seems awfully rich to complain that you need a better source for a tweet (!) or well known, not contested by anyone, present memory practices, when most of this article has no sources at all. Nevertheless, even if it can't be proven exactly what happened, Poleszak suggests that fear of being prosecuted may well be a factor in Franczak's actions. Read the last few pages of the article. (] · ]) ''']''' 01:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)