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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Alex '05 (talk | contribs) at 03:47, 25 March 2005 (→Bulgars---originally Turkic or not Turkic). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Remove "Bulgar" Etymology Guess

What on Earth is Varkun, and how could it be related to the word Bulgar? Furthermore, I believe the current view is that Bulgars were not originally Turkic (article seems to agree), so it does not make sense for the word to be derived from a Turkic language. According to Bulgarian scholars (who should care), the etymology of the name is somewhere between very controversial, and totally unknown. We should remove the whole name etymology sentence. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to throw wild guesses. Unless someone presents a viable referenced argument for the current etymology hypothesis, I will edit it out. --Bbugg 00:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bulgar (Bolgar) name seems to be driven from Volga river. I find the suggested etymology ("Bulgha" to mix) less likely.

I think etymologists agree that Volga is also derived from the Turkic for mix. Hope it helps.

Btw a friend of mine that graduated Turkology told me there is no word "bulgha" meaning "mix" in any Turkic language. In Bulgarian textbooks the name is explained with a totemistic origin. In Turkic languages bulga is a kind of small animal with valuable fur. So the "Bulgars" would be the "bulga hunters".

името българи има тотемен произход, т. е. свързва се с името на животното-прародител. Засвидетелствано е в различни варианти като булг-ан/а, булг-ин, булх-ън, булг-ар, бул-гачин, което на различни тюркски езици означава "белка, златка, самур". Или казано по друг начин, българи означава „ловци на самури" (История на България за 11 клас. С., Отворено общество, 1996 - автори: П. Делев, Г. Бакалов, П. Ангелов, Цв. Георгиева, Пл. Митев, Ст. Трифонов, Б. Василева, И. Баева, Е. Калинова)

Смешно е да се защитава енциклопедичността с голи гърди, а в същото време да се подхвърлят петърдобреви врели-некипели в стил "българи-арийци!". Само ще напомня, че ВСЕ ОЩЕ сериозната наука категоризира изследваните прабългарски глоси като тюркоезични и освен невежи спекулации, няма други доводи да се определи езикът на прабългарите като памирски или какъвто и да било друг.217.10.246.155 09:00, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would think twice before using "Отворено общество" (Open Society Institute) texts for anything, particularly concerning facts that might (or might not, as it usually is) have a "nationalist" ring to them. The institute is somewhat notorious for pushing their agenda when it comes to interpretations of history. It is very unfortunate, that such publications are actually used in some high schools in Bulgaria. On the subject of protobulgarian language, if you bothered to look at a list of non-slavic words, present in modern Bulgarian, you would discover that most words tend to appear much more closely related to Pashtu, than to any Turkic language. Refrain from posting in Bulgarian here, do so on my talk page. --Bbugg 19:47, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

İdel or Volga

Hi, I'm from Kazan and I can help you in this question!

Volga is Finnish for water. (Finnish tribes lived in Russia before Slavics and Turks). Tatars use İdel for Volga. So Volga is Finnish name. In native Tatar and Russian pronouncing bolğar do not sounds like volga^becose it's rr in the ending.

--Untifler 20:36, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I am a Bulgarian, who speaks Finnish, and I can tell you that Volga is not a word in Finnish. The Finnish word for water is vesi, and the sound combination lg is not present in Finnish at all. I'd bet on the Turkic origin of Volga.

--Bbugg 03:24, 30 Jul 2004 (EET)

The name of Kama river is absoulutely unclear. Some apologize that it derrivides from Komi ethnos. Intetrestingly, that Tatars foget their oun name for Kama (Çulman) and use Russian name Kama now.

--Untifler 20:40, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Madara horseman???

Da ne bi njakoj da e propusnal fakta 4e minalata godina arheolozi dokazaha trakijskija proizhod na madarskija konnik? Horata nameriha relef ot nadgrobna plo4a s absolutno syshtoto izobrazhenie. Taka 4e vyprosyt e priklu4en. Mozhe bi shte e dobre ako mahnete snimkata na konnika ot tazi statija i ja premestite v statija za trakite.

Ne si spomnqm da e dokazano sas sigurnost, 4e pametnikat e s trakijski proizhod, dokato tova ne stane, snimkata ostava. VMORO

Madara horseman should stay, unless hard references for alleged discovery of Thracian origins are presented. Please, use only English here! --Bbugg 00:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Heil master, yes master... I can not imagine any "harder references" than having a Thracian tombstone with exactly the same image found. They had all this written in newspapers and shown on tv news last year. I believe the have the stelae in the National Museum right now. Come by and search for yourself. You don't expect me to snitch it and knock it in your forehead, do you?

See being arrogant would only bring you arrogance in exchange. I wouldn't use words like "alleged" when speaking to somebody about what he just said. 217.10.246.155 09:21, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We get the same sort of "discoveries" every year, some of them (few) end up accepted by science, however, the most of them do not. You heard something on TV a year ago and that is not an especially valid reason for changing the whole article. On top of it, it is quite hard to talk of any Thracians after 1 cent DC (as they were all Romanized) and the monument is officially dated to the 7th or 8th century DC. And, please, tone down your language, you are not at the market haggling about prices. VMORO

Sorry - wrong address. I am not the one that clumps legs and says what "should" and what "shouldn't". Anyway my tone is exclusively my concern. NOTE! I don't know you and I do not have any personal biases towards you.217.10.246.155 11:41, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Btw the market I go to has fixed prices, unfortunately ;)

With this attitude you are going straight towards being banned. You are in a public website where people are supposed to be polite to each other. If you have a problem with that, leave. VMORO

??? And what exactly in my words would you categorize as "rude"? To be banned or not is not my decision, yet my ban would be the most unfair ever on this site. I broke no rules, I ment to offend nobody. Or expressing disagreement is quite a reason for you? If people should be polite, make them ALL be polite. Being edifying is not a shortcut in that direction.217.10.246.155 12:55, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Btw I didn't even argue with you. Is jumping into fights your way to keep adrenalin high or what? :(

Pamirian origin

...a people of Central Asia, probably originally Pamirian, ...

I have the feeling (may be I'm wrong) that here Pamirian is reffering to some kind of ethnic group. If that is the case than the link should point to it and not to the mountain. Otherwise I don't see why it shoud stay there at all - they just stayed in Pamir some time or what? --Nk 12:58, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Stetsyuk's Bulgar Etymology

Some researcher from Ukraine named Valentyn Stetsyuk has an idea that 'Bulgar' is related to Latin 'Vulgus' (a group of people), German 'Volk' (people), and Chuvash 'Pulkka' (a herd). The Turkic Chuvash people are said to be descended from the Volga Bulgars. No comment from me, and I caution that Stetsyuk is not always reliable. But then again, the 'furry animal' Turkic etymology is kind of weak as well. Decius 06:28, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bulgars---originally Turkic or not Turkic

Occasionally I watch the debate here whether the Bulgars were Turkic or not. I'm wondering what evidence exists that indicates they were Turkic. Whatever evidence exists for that theory should be collected and put in the article. If no evidence exists, then it is hard to list Bulgars under the Turkic category. Decius 02:16, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As far as I am aware there is NO debate in serious scholarly circles. The early Bulgars were linguistically Turkic, regardless of whatever their genealogical origin may be. The works of M.I. Artamanov, Runciman, Peter Golden, David Christian, Omeljan Pritsak and D. Dmitrov (himself a Bulgarian) to name only a few, all conclude that the early Bulgars spoke a Turkic language, as do all serious linguists who have studied the topic. I have yet to see a single citation from VMORO or any other user to a serious work of linguistics that contains arguments for reclassifying the proto-Bulgar language as Iranic or part of any other language group. Unfortunately, the "debate", such as it is, is motivated largely by nationalist ideologues seeking to minimize Bulgarian associations with Turkic peoples. --Dzimmer6 02:57, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I often hear that "The Bulgars were Turkic", yet I rarely see evidence for that idea. It might just be an assumption. Unless many Bulgar names, etc., have been shown to be Turkic (which would be a strong indication). On the other hand, I have found a scholarly site that presents much evidence indicating that the Bulgars did not speak a Turkic language:. This is based on a detailed study old Bulgar inscriptions, which really are not apparently Turkic at all, except for some Turkic words thrown in here and there (and there are also Slavic words thrown in here and there). Decius 09:07, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)