User talk:Jimbo Wales - Misplaced Pages

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Massive pedophile crackdown

About a month ago, there appeared to be a big crackdown on self-identified pedophilies. From what I can gather, the ones that I knew that had put up messages saying they were a pedophile (User:Zanthalon, User:Silent War, User:Clayboy) seemed to be indefinitely blocked and had their pages deleted and protected. I've found something here: Can you explain and is there any more information on this? Christopher Connor 21:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The banning of three self-professed pedophiles hardly seems like a "massive crackdown". If there are issues with individual bans please email individual ArbCom members directly. -Will Beback · † · 23:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Congratulation to the Misplaced Pages for actioning to protect wide society from the dangerous individualsWen Hsing 14:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Congratulation to Wen Hsing for making an extremely POV edit, not to mention one that is highly erroneous. — $PЯINGrαgђ 14:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This page for the talk, Point Of View expression is permit? Is it not? Also most reasonable persons agree pedophilia dangerous. If a persons say openly they feel urge to murder, or would enjoy torture the animal, or create the social chaos with explosive, is this not dangerous thinking? Similarly dangerous pedophile concern. I do not intend moralistic judgment or offensive, it is issue the society safety.Wen Hsing 20:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I am unaware of any general crackdown. We always block people who are trolling and being disruptive. I see nothing wrong with any of the blocks.--Jimbo Wales 18:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, my detailed response is here, the short version being: Ask the person to remove the offending material, and only refusal to do so being cause for banning. AFAIK these are good editors and I wouldn't have any credibility if I didn't stand up for them, so I am. Please reconsider. Herostratus 19:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The blocked Wikipedians were not trolls, they were simply paedophiles who made well-intentioned edits to Misplaced Pages but admitted their sexual orientation on their userpage. Since there are millions of paedophiles in society, there are clearly going to be a lot of paedophiles on Misplaced Pages. I'm guessing that Misplaced Pages received complaints from random vigilantes, however this reaction is totally unnecessary - a few silly hate groups and vigilantes are hardly going to damage a site such as Misplaced Pages. BLueRibbon 01:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

There was a longer discussion here, but it was needless, harmful, and disruptive. We are better off without it. —Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 17:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Power abuse

Mr. Wales, I'm just an ordinary Misplaced Pages's editor, I'm not from an english speaking language but I think everybody here is equal, by principle. I would like to protest about a block I suffered from an administrator (and your friend as suposed by the photo at his users page)named Kjetil r and other arbitrary one, Lugusto, from Brazil.

I'm now blocked at Commons because I "dared" upload an OWN WORK of good quality, which was tagged as COPYVIO withou any reason, just a "doubt". Of course, I reuploaded the image and this administrator Kjetil r simply blocked me for one week, with a bizarre "death sentence": "user reuploaded a copyvio". What??? What copyvio?? Please, I ask you to read the actual discussion in my talk page at Commons and help to a solution in this matter. I thnik administrators who block users based in their own will, without any true reason, must be punished. Thank you Machocarioca 21:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)Machocarioca

I would suggest, before going to Mr. Wales, that you exhaust the "lower level" appeals processes first. If you disagree with an administrators actions in the Commons, you should post your complaint on the Commons Admin noticeboard (). You should be able to post there even if you're blocked. If you can't, email one of the Commons administrators and let them know you want to appeal your block and they should allow you to do so. Cla68 01:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I can't do that, I'm blocked. When I'll be able to do that, the block would be expired. It looks like Cuba, maybe. I would like an answer from Mr Wales, the user in question is a friend of him. "Lowel Level"? I tought all users were equal here. Mr Wales and Mr John Doe too. There's a great injustice and power abuse in the situation. Machocarioca 05:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Machocarioca

Just as a reminder, we don't "punish" people here. --Abu badali 16:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That seems like a semantic quibble. We deny folks access to resources. In some contexts that serves as punishment, or charitably, feedback for their learning systems. --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 17:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Nobody is blocked as a punishment. For instance, if you there's no reason to believe some user would keep on doing disruptive behavior, there's no need to block. In the Commons case above, the user was blocked because he showed intention to keep reuploading deleted material. --Abu badali 18:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the intent (i.e. to not be punishment), the action of blocking can feel to the blocked user like a punishment, as should be self-evident by the user's complaint. The fact that a person does not intend a consequence to be interpreted as punishment (i.e. you/Wikipedia admins as a whole do not intend blocking to be interpreted as punishment) cannot prevent an affected individual from feeling punished. --MalcolmGin Talk / Conts 18:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

(Abu badali) said: "Nobody is blocked as a punishment". If you are blocked without support of any rule, you're being punished. "The user was blocked because he showed intention to keep reuploading deleted material". Yes, but why delected?? Nobody talks about that. Because a user "doubt" an own image is mine. Of course it was reuploaded, and will be again, this is not a nazi site . And of course I fell me punished. Machocarioca 20:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Machocarioca

Of course it was reuploaded, and will be again, is exactly why you're blocked. Editors are not blocked for punishment, but because it's the only way to prevent them from being disruptive. WilyD 18:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

To WilyD : Disruptive?? Who you call disruptive? An user who wants upload his own work?? I'm sorry, but are you kidding?? Could be disruptive, in your mind, an administrator who blocks an user who wants upload his own work or not?? And this arbitrary administrator blocked me before I say anything about reupload anything. Could you please answer this question? Did you read anytihng in this discussion before say what you said? Machocarioca 00:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)Machocarioca

Whether you're right or not is not really what being disruptive is about. When something is disputed in good faith by several users they need to resolve the issue before moving forward. Right or wrong, someone who keeps charging ahead against the grain without discussion is being disruptive. Pledging to continue to do so without trying to resolve the issue is definitely being disruptive. While a seven day block does seem somewhat excessive, the fact that you declared your intent to keep uploading shows it wasn't unjustified. Discuss and work out the problem, then proceed. Look, I understand how frustrating other users can be sometimes when you're playing by the rules and they're opposed to what you're doing. But you have to find a consensus. Of course, an Admin blocking a user who wants to upload their own work may or may not be disruptive - more context is needed to know. And I read the whole discussion before I wrote what I wrote, yes. WilyD 03:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some points of your message but let me discuss some statements: "When something is disputed in good faith". The problem here is this, there isn't good faith on it but bad personal relationship. This is a problem that came here from another language wiki, envolving a known troublemaker in it, user Dantadd✉ who came here to "doubt" about the work of someone about who he knows.......nothing. In other words, this guy called me desonest supported by an irresponsable ADM. The administrator (God knows how) Lugusto in question did not delet it in good faith, he deleted because this one, (his friend in another wiki) "doubted" about the ownership. Based in what? Nothing, as you can read at the discuss page. There wasn't a consensus to delect the image, just the will of an user because another one said "I doubt" (???)I want to resolve this issue, how can we do that? As you can imagine, I'm very upset with this situation.
I understand how frustrating other users can be sometimes when you're playing by the rules . Yes, I'm the one here playing by the rules, this ADM Lugusto is not, as you can read in the discuss. I apologize for all this thing, but this is a personal fight among users of portuguese wiki that was deployed here for two users, Dantadd and Lugusto. There's a huge discussion out there about fair use and these people took all this thing to a personal level. This is the root of all this thing here, I apologize for their behaviour. Well, I'm very frustated that an ordinary user of this wiki, only by personal feelings, have started this mess.

they need to resolve the issue before moving forward. Yes I agree but the issue was already resolved moving forward before anything, the image was deleted right? And when it was uploaded another ADM blocked the user. It was resolved, hã? Well, the bizarre question is: how can the owner of an image(me) upload it without being blocked or something?? What I have to say? I think I've said all. Thank you. Machocarioca 06:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)Machocarioca

Machocarioca: It was decided at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:KEITHR.JPG that the image should be deleted. I did not participate in the deletion debate, and I do not have strong feelings about this image. But when you upload it again, and say that you intend to do so over and over again, you should be blocked. ~~Seven days was perhaps too much, so I'll unblock you now.~~ The block has now expired. You can write a note at commons:Commons:Undeletion requests, but please do not upload it again. Kjetil r 01:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC), changed 01:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me , but I strongly desagree . It was decided, for who? By one arbitrary administrator without any, repeating, any evidence to that, as you can read in the discuss page. The only messages there were from two users who say that they talked with me before and I said the image was really mine. Just that. No arbitrary users, just came to me to confirm. Agree? Please, read the discussion and find ANY evidence that suppports the deletion. So, there wasn't any accordance to that, just of the user who began all the process coming from nowhere to say he "doubted" about the ownership of an image placed here months ago.

I will write a note in the undelection request and wait to read the arguments against or not. I'm very upset with these arbitrary act, as you can see, by two irresponsable users from antoher wiki, Lugusto and Dantadd.

And you, sir, blocked me because I "reuploaded a COPYVIO". What?? Could you say me what copyvio were you talking about? I think you made a huge mistake supporting an arbitrary act of another one, in a "debate" (it wasn't) you neither participate. An this "expired block" was an absurd one, forgive me. Ok, I know you, administrators, will never block an administrator for arbitrary acts, you will ever suppport them, this is a problema here in Misplaced Pages and the reason of some many angry among the users. I just think this method doesn't work. Maybe is the real reason why Jerry Sanger got out. Anyone, who we do not know who is or his capacity to understand an especific mater can decide what he wants if he is an "administrator". The human being never fails... Thank you. Machocarioca 06:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)Machocarioca

It's not just you, so don't sweat it. This sort of stupidity has become part of Misplaced Pages's culture. It's the reason I never bother contributing anymore, and it's the reason Misplaced Pages has been bleeding good editors for quite some time. (Anyone want to set an over/under on when this comment gets deleted?) 24.193.75.24 14:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Commercial Misplaced Pages

Do you regret not making Misplaced Pages a commercial site to sell some ad space? Obviously this could be bringing in a small fortune. Seems like a wasted opportunity. Acirema 05:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

He has been quoted as saying making it a nonprofit was the smartest thing he ever did or the dumbest thing he ever did. If he had not made it nonprofit, then it may never have become anything ... but we'll never know. WAS 4.250 06:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added that often repeated quote to q:Jimmy Wales, sourced to SXSW 2006; does it date back further? John Vandenberg 08:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The history of Spanish Misplaced Pages may be of interest to you. NoSeptember 12:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It is important to recognize that I have always said that line as a joke. :) --Jimbo Wales 09:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Karmafist banned for administrative vandalism?

I'm curious about what kind of "subtle vandalism" did User:Karmafist engage in (administrative? editorial?). How would someone "subtly" vandalize Misplaced Pages? And what articles did he vandalize? I don't know who to ask, so I post this on Jimbo's talk page, I assume someone else other than Jimbo would respond, since it happens in most of the times. Wooyi 22:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

He didn't vandalize any article using this account but through sockpuppetry using many others, as stated on user page. --Kzrulzuall 10:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well then why blocking his main account? Wooyi 17:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

This was a chronic, serious problem, including an arbitration case, in which I think the ban was really a last resort. The ban has always made me sad, because he gave me my first "welcome" message which is still on my talkpage, but at some point he became so unhappy that he just couldn't get along here any more. Newyorkbrad 18:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious? You think people can avoid all the consequences of their vandalism merely by doing it under alternate accounts? That's nonsense. Blocks and bans are handed out on a per-person basis, not a per-account basis. You vandalize under sock accounts, your main account gets blocked for it too. Pretty simple, really. --Cyde Weys 18:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Living people category in Chinese Misplaced Pages needs intervention

There is a heated deletion debate in Chinese Misplaced Pages concerning living people category. Please intervene even if you cannot enter Chinese. I can explain the English text to users there. Thank you.--Jusjih 15:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)(English and Chinese Misplaced Pages admin)

I can read Chinese and I edit the Chinese Misplaced Pages as well, but you want Jimbo to intervene to keep that category or to delete that category? Wooyi 15:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I saw your post there. Wooyi 15:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Rklawton

I believe the user User:Rklawton is abusing his administative authority. Could you or someone else look into his actions. 63.3.20.1 19:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

You need to make a request at WP:ANI, providing specific diffs or links to explain the problem. Do not reply on this page; nobody will help you here. Placeholder account 00:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I dare you...

...to take the Official "Are you a Wikipediholic" test. Then, tell me what your score is on my talk page. Good luck.--Dial 03:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Eleventy billion.--Jimbo Wales 04:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's because "You are Jimbo." Your score fits the range! :-) Nothin' like a bit of fun on a bad day (all those admins' accounts being hacked). Ryan 20:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Short answer to trolling question

You can look in the history if you want to read the trolling question.

With respect to where the donated funds go, you can look it up. We publish audited financial statements. What you will see in those financial statements is that neither I, nor any of the board of directors, receive any of that money. There are some travel reimbursements (very little to me personally, since most of my travel is paid for by people who have invited me to speak, or by me personally). Anyway, we publish everything.--Jimbo Wales 14:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Nickname Policy, please

Hello Mr. Wales, I have had a problem with the Misplaced Pages entry of Archimedes Plutonium. It just so happens that Misplaced Pages has some irrational policy over nicknames, and yours of "Jimbo" is a case in point. You may not feel that Jimbo is deprecatory, but to a scientist, these sort of things touches sensitive nerves. Scientists don't want nonsense but want seriousness. There is not a scientist that I know of in Encycl Britannica who is encumbered by some dumb and stupid nickname. Nicknames are fine for sports figures or entertainment, but for scientists nicknames smack of mocking. Arthur Rubin is a Wiki editor who insists on retaining this deprecatory fanname "Arky". The source which that was found is a deprecatory source in the first place and not a biography source. The people who discuss my ideas on the Internet have largely used the nickname AP. Nicknames are different from fannames. And a person has a say over what his/her nickname is. Others cannot give me a nickname which I reject. Arthur Rubin is acting like a bully on this nickname issue. He has never posted the full Wiki policy on nicknames, which leads me to suspect there really never was a policy and that the insistence on "Arky" is a form of mockery which the Wiki editors are delighted over.

I do not believe you have a policy for nicknames and that you do not have a definition of nickname versus fanname, nor does Misplaced Pages have a steadfast rule for nicknames as witnessed by scientist versus sports entries. So the evidence indicates Misplaced Pages is acting arbitrary on nicknames.

-- Archimedes Plutonium —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.16.54.196 (talk) 07:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

OMG it's Archie Pu! Do you remember me? I don't suppose you do, but anyway whilste I don't accept that you have a say in a nickname given to you by many of your "fans" never the less I don't see the issue is important enough to fight over. You do know that you are not really a scientist though? Honestly you are not. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 08:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

And for this very reason, why isn't the man's bio (Archimedes Plutonium) tagged for speedy deletion? Looking at the TALK page, I see this was tried, but failed. Partly on grounds that if everybody else was doing it (Kibo lives in part to make fun of Archie), then why shouldn't Archie? Here again we see BLP being used as a dumping ground for bios that NOBODY else would print. Misplaced Pages is (among other things) a museum of collected previously-lost trivia about living internet cranks, crackpots, and eccentrics. I can do nothing about it, except to continue to point them out, until you all just cave in from embarrassment regarding what your own petrified BLP policies have created. Gag me. Jimbo, some serious bad karma is building up, here. Your BLP policies remind me of the slime explosion from Ghostbusters II. Eventually, when it all goes up or comes down, everybody who aided or abbetted keeping BLPs of people like Archie, are figuratively going to look like they've been hit with 10 buckets of dinosaur snot. Fair warning. S B H arris 22:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you are proven wrong by how scientists names quarks those stupid, silly names. SakotGrimshine 08:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

How long will this go on ? ("Protocols of Zion")

People start noticing Zeq 08:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It is customary, I believe, to wait until ArbCom have actually ruled before you appeal to the big man himself. --h2g2bob (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom has rulled twice and did nothing to stop Zero. (this is his 3rd arbcom apearnace) and Fred is again rail roading it again (even after he admit that he himself was rude againt me, that he made factual errors in accusaing me etc...) everything goes in order to help an anti-zionist editor like Zero end his 3rd arbCom case without any restriction (depsite overwhelimg evidence to his violations) , - this despite the evidence: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_Dmcdevit Zeq 17:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Fred continues to taint the case with divisions to "pro-Zionist" editors: It is time someone intevine and re-start thje case w/o Fred being involved it. He is rude and made false accusations such as the one about using propeganda sources similar the "protoclos of Zion". Fred is unfit to be judicial in this case.

- - http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000/Workshop&diff=128867454&oldid=128761129]] (not by me) Zeq 18:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

My block

Thanks for the unblock Jimbo. I realize now that there's apparently some crazy stuff going on, even moreso than I thought when I first saw the main page deleted. My explanation for my unblocks is here. · jersyko talk 18:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's all good. I just saw that you unblocked one of the problem accounts, and thought I would be cautious. But I got straightened out pretty quickly.--Jimbo Wales 18:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh, well, if I was ever going to get a block log, I'm glad you're the one that did it instead of a rogue/compromised admin on a rampage. · jersyko talk 19:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, apologies

Hi Jimbo, I'm from Sunderland in the United Kingdom. Sorry about the questions on IRC (I never meant to troll) My apologies for the incident. Eaomatrix 18:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

So You have no answer on this ?

the bottom edit: Zeq 20:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo doesn't necessarily comment on everything. --Deskana (AFK 47) 20:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I know. By silence and not taking action are speaking volume. Zeq 04:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

He also doesn't read everything, and sometimes goes for days without visiting this page. So, well, it's hardly the dark signs & portents your message seems to suggest. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 05:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

understood. Zeq 08:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I actually visit almost every day, and try to read everything. I find myself entirely unconvinced by Zeq in this case. That edit, the one you link to, strikes me as completely unproblematic. It is of course true that at some point, biased sources are not reliable sources. You may disagree with Fred in his assessment of your behavior (and I might disagree with him as well), but it is hardly problematic for him to disagree with you. So what's the big scandal here? Is there something I am failing to grasp? --Jimbo Wales 09:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

When an arbitor makes false accusation about an editor (the accusation that the editor is using sources similar to some of the worst propeganda source the world ever known) and is unable to back this accusation with facts. And given that this accusations was only offered to defend the other party to the arbitration (who did removed sources) this is not a fair judicial proces. The problem is compunded by both Zero0000 and Fred being anti-Zionists and Fred labaleing me as "zionist" (not sure if Fred meaning by that is similar to my understanding of the term). In any case justice need to apear fair and in this case it is not. Fred is ignoring the evidence about Zero's constant edit-wars (in articles I never eddited). If you will look deeper into Zero's edit you will see how Misplaced Pages rule of NPOV is violated by him again and again (mostly be deleting sources who oppose his own POV) > Thank you for your time looking into this case. Zeq 09:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC) btw, was it your intention to delete all this: ? Zeq 10:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, you response is understandable because I think Zeq might be barking up the wrong tree (or for the wrong reason) here, but could you revisit that comment. While I never specifically referred to your old wikien-l post like Zeq has been, I'm now concerned that you seem to be repudiating the common-sense part that reads "we have a cardinal rule, that goes all the way back to the existence of sysop powers in the first place, that they must never be used in a dispute over content that we are personally involved in." In fact, one of the reasons I brought this arbitration case as a third party was because of Zero0000's blocking of an editor he was edit warring with (Zeq), and especially because of his previously desysopping of him, and this being his third arbitration case. I was already disconcerted to have Fred apparently deciding that blocking while involved is acceptable, but I sincerely hope that wasn't your intention. (In fact, I would appreciate it if you took the opportunity to reiterate this point, there or on the mailing list.) Dmcdevit·t 10:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Wrong tree maybe. We are after all discussing here an admin who engage in massive amount of edit-wars with multiple users (including articles that I never editted) and when he does revert me his give these kind of reasons which show maturaity and sound judjment: . Zeq 10:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Unblocking Jiang

Jimbo, please reconsider your re-blocking of User:Jiang. It has been confirmed that Jiang is back in control of his account, and he is already desysopped. Indefinite blocking seems a little harsh just for having a weak password.--ragesoss 02:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I second that. Checkusers have confirmed that the person in control of the account now is Jiang and the account is no longer compromised. Marine 69-71 has been unblocked under similar reasoning. While re-sysopping is a whole other bucket of worms, both Jiang and Tony the Marine are active and valued members of the community, and shouldn't loose that privilege because of a poor, yet common, choice of password. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 02:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No objection to an unblock, and I will do it myself right now to make sure the block log looks happy.--Jimbo Wales 09:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone beat me to it, actually.--Jimbo Wales 09:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW

Not realy sure what made you "unhappy" (it was not my intention) in any case I wrote this specific words when the case strated:

"Only Zero's current behavior is standing on trial today. The pattern existed for years but the evidence on recent bahaviour is fresh. His on-going violations will are presented (recent edits: 2007, 2006). There is no other Wikipedian who behave with such arrogance toward those who disgree with him and with such sense of impunity – this will be clear from the evidence.(some just days old - zero continue this behavior even after this 3rd ArbCom case of his has started) Zeq 15:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC) " . No one was making any attempt to paint something as something else. Zeros pattern of behaviour is similar to what he did when you suggested he should be de-sysoped. It really did not matter if you or anyone else said at the time but simply :It is clear that admins who are block/ban after being warrned not to block (and not to ban) during a edit-dispute lacks the minimal judgment and self restrain required of admins.

Zeq 10:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Messiahs

I removed the notice you placed here but have also substantially changed the article here. I am giving you the courtesy of letting you know, SqueakBox 18:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Falun Gong arbitration case likely to suppress information on the Falun Gong

If you have a moment, please check out a current arbitration case here: and my response to Fred Bauder’s justification for singling out Falun Gong critics here: I'm one of two critics of the Falun Gong who have just been banned from editing the article based on Fred Bauder's belief that I'm a "determined activist" seeking to push my POV, rather than an analysis of my edits. Falun Gong practitioners have aggressively deleted well-sourced and notable information from Misplaced Pages which they consider reflects badly on their group, yet none of these editors were singled out for a ban at the start of the Arbitration case. If this doesn't amount to unequal application of Misplaced Pages policies, I don't know what does.

I'm not asking you to intervene on my behalf, since I've already decided to leave Misplaced Pages for good. But there will surely be other editors who in good faith seek to introduce edits about the Falun Gong which Falun Gong practitioners object to and work to suppress. This particular arbitration action was flawed from the beginning. Thought you should know. --Tomananda 07:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

PS: For a slightly different take on this issue, check out this post on the Arbitration Talk page from another editor who is neither pro-FG nor anti-FG:

The problem is not the arbitrators want to suppress anyone, it is that anti-Falun Gong editors often disruptively remove sourced information from articles, I don't want to single out any editor, but removing sourced information based on POV is indeed disruptive. Wooyi 19:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's disruptive to delete sourced material...but that is not what I have done. For the most part, the edits that have been used to ban me are cases where I have re-instated direct quotes from Master Li Hongzhi. I have only rarely engaged in deleting things on Misplaced Pages because I believe in the principle of working cooperatively. When in doubt: add something to a legitimate edit, don't just delete it.

If other FG critics have deleted sourced material, is it fair to make me accountable for their actions? To get a grip on how my ban is so unjustified compared to the sanctions of FG practitioners, please compare my edits on the evidence page with those done by FG practitioner "Happy in General" and you'll get the point. Happy in General reinstated what can clearly be considered a POV picture some 30 times, and for those actions she was not even given the lesser sanction of a revert parole. My edits were also the reinstatement of sourced material...in this case direct quotes from Li Hongzhi on what he has said about his Dafa (Great Law of the cosmos) and how it is judging all beings. Those are direct quotes from the Master, who is considered an infallible god by the practitioners (although they deny it). So how in the world can I be banned for reinstating well sourced direct quotes from Master Li, while Happy in General gets off scott free for reinstating even more POV pictures of an alleged FG victim in China? My intent has always been to add quotes from Master Li which may make the practitioners uncomfortable not because I'm trying to embarrass them, but because they show a radically different picture of the FG from what appears in their edits. Now, it appears that the Arb Com has unwittingly given sanction to these same practitioners to control the content of these pages, censoring material which is relevant and well-sourced, but which they think reflects poorly on their group. Really, don't you see the profound injustice here? --Tomananda 19:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Userbox

See above. Emбargo 10:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Seriously Embargo, you need to let this drop, if you want a discussion on the matter, take it to WP:AN, this isn't the right place for it. Ryan Postlethwaite 10:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Ryan. Take this to WP:ANI or WP:AN if you wish, but please do not start another post here. It isn't relevant, and the posts are getting extremely disruptive, especially as you seem to be canvassing Jimbo for support... --Kzrulzuall 10:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I do not seek Jim Wales' support. I want him to resolve this once and for all and I hope he has the courage to speak up. Emбargo 18:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The community can decide this, we don't need someone from the top to comment on it. Please take this to AN or AN/I. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

On an issue this serious, on which which consensus has been reached too many times, I think I need a final say. "This user supports Hezbollah", is it allowed or not? Is it "completely inappropriate" and "inflammatory" or is it acceptable as the rest of the userboxes? I'm not asking you Postlethwhatever, I'm asking Jim Wales, the owner of Misplaced Pages. Emбargo 19:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you the head of wiki?

Are you the head of wiki? if not who is? thanks in advance, Dom58! 16:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Florence Devouard is the Chair of the Wikimedia Foundation. I am a trustee (board member) of the Wikimedia Foundation. Within the English Misplaced Pages I have a certain traditional role under our community system of governance, a role which of course changes over time as the community institutions grow and strengthen. This role is not assigned by the foundation, but by the community and our traditions.--Jimbo Wales 20:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wiki ads...

http://requests.wikia.com/Ads ← The proposal.

I've created a proposal that I believe has the potential to be a large revenue source for Wikia, and in turn, Misplaced Pages. Should I just go ahead and start the site myself, or would Wikia be an appropriate framework? --R e m i 00:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Um, you do realize that Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with Wikia? That you're posting this on entirely the wrong site? --Cyde Weys 01:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, you do realise that this violates Wikia's terms of use? — iridescenti (talk to me!) 15:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is another answer to Why Fred should have recused

By now, it is too late since Fred has tainted this whole process into a very clear direction:

Ignoring the multiple policvy violations of Zero as an editor while "admonishing" his misuse of the admin tools.

This is so remote from being fair.

Zero has edit-war (massivly) even in articles I never edited but it seems that as long as someone is editing only from a strongly anti-zionist POV he can violate[REDACTED] policy with impunity. This is Zero's 3rd arbCom case. He was warned before but again is going to end this case with no restrictions on his disrupptive edit practices. On the other hand the editor which the comitee (and Fred) label a "zionist editor" is removed, banned or severly restricted.

Jimbo, is this strike you as fair or as systematic anti-zionist bias ?

all I was asking is for ArbCom to look at the evidence (pleanty of it) before Fred starts dectating the proposed decison. Zeq 03:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not the only one who presented evidence which is totaly ignored by ArbCom Dmcdevit: Armarouso:

and there is more... Zeq 12:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Archimedes Plutonium

Dear Jimbo, I am writing concerning the entry on Archimedes Plutonium. He is a figure who, according to the opening of the entry, is "widely noted for his varied contributions to Usenet and his claims that the entire Universe is a single plutonium atom." The entry has been the subject of two AfDs, but has survived both. The subject of the entry requested in March that the entry be deleted (see here and here, and also see this). It is very clear that the subject of this entry is not notable, and that this entry exists only because some editors consider its subject to be a figure of fun, if their motives are not indeed more malicious than that. I feel that the subject of the entry may not be in a strong position to defend himself, and I therefore request your intervention in deleting this entry. Thanks. FNMF 04:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"The entry has been the subject of two AfDs, but has survived both." Clearly the community thinks he's notable enough to warrant an article, I've certainly read him before, so what exactly is the need so pressing that this article requires being brought to Jimbo to be deleted against the community's wishes? I fail to see it... FeloniousMonk 05:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

As I've already pointed out, the Archimedes meets WP:BIO. JoshuaZ 05:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

An example of the content of the entry is the following: "Others defended him on the grounds that anyone who dubbed himself "The King of All Science" while talking to Nobel prize winners about pumping water from the Pacific Ocean to the Moon via a giant hose using osmotic pressure, more than made up for any perceived lack of academic credentials for the sheer entertainment that such things gave to the world." He is an utterly non-notable figure, and the entry is not only non-encyclopaedic but insensitive and malicious. Furthermore, the subject of the entry has requested deletion, and this request is entirely reasonable. If this kind of abuse of the defenceless is permissible on Misplaced Pages, it reflects poorly on the editorial culture. FNMF 12:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you intend to respond to the fact that he meets WP:BIO or not? JoshuaZ 12:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned he's completely non-notable, as I've mentioned in both of the comments I've placed. FNMF 12:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

So explain how he's no notable. We have multiple (6 at least) independent reliable sources which focus on him. Nor is this a 15-minutes of fame situation but the articles are for a variety of different things in different years. Notability is not simply your being uninterested in the topic. JoshuaZ 12:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any sources that establish anything like encyclopaedic notability. FNMF 13:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The "The Dartmouth Murders" has an extensive discussion, there are at least two articles in The Dartmouth which are dedicated solely to discussing this topic and he is the subject of multiple others. He is extensively discussed in the Discover article ""Notes from Another Universe" as well as being discussed in Dartmouth Alumni Magazine for October of 1992. If you would bother to actually look at the article you would have realized this. We have many, independent, non-trivial reliable sources. Stop being disruptive. JoshuaZ 15:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

JoshuaZ, you may well feel certain that Archimedes Plutonium is an important and worthwhile ornament to Misplaced Pages. I disagree, and I have given my reasons. You ask me to address your criticisms of my position and I have done so, though obviously not to your satisfaction. On the other hand, I have not seen any response to my claim that the entry is non-encyclopaedic, insensitive, and malicious. However that may be, please do not accuse me of "disruption" merely because you are frustrated that I do not agree with your position. FNMF 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

FNMF: ths is really not the proper place to discuss events that have followed Misplaced Pages process to the T. If the article has twice survied AfD, it is (as FM stated) clearly because the community feels it should stay.

Essentially, in refusing to accept the voice of the community and in continuing to try to fan the flames of a dead fire, you are being disruptive for disruption's sake. Let it go, move on to another topic, another article. Look, I don't think most of the school articles belong here, but since the community supports these articles, I'll be damned if I'm going to bang my head into a marble wall in protest. It's best to just move on, and keep ones credibility intact. Jim62sch 20:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

My belief is the following: there is no clearer case that I know of where a Misplaced Pages entry has the potential to cause harm to the subject of the entry. I understand that editors aware of this entry have twice chosen to retain it. I nevertheless believe this is an unnecessary and potentially harmful entry that is also insensitive, malicious, and non-encyclopaedic. By coming to this forum, I was not attempting to initiate a dialogue on the entry with those who wish to defend the entry. Clearly there are editors who believe this entry is justified. Of course, if the entry has been through 2 AfDs, then obviously I'm not the first one to object to the entry. Whether Mr Wales chooses to act in relation to this entry or not is his business, and I trust him with this decision. But nothing that has been printed in objection to my initial post convinces me that the Archimedes Plutonium entry has any place in this encyclopaedia. FNMF 21:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The latest comment by the subject of the entry is this. FNMF 14:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The even latest-er comment by the subject of the entry is this This situation is unpleasant and unnecessary. FNMF 07:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Problem is, there's a source, a book by Eric Francis. Seems to me that if Archimedes Plutonium has an issue with the source, he needs to take it up with the source. We just report, and given WP:NOR can't really engage in our own research to verify that the source was telling the truth (i.e., investigative reporting à la the media).

If you feel that the article needs cleanup, why not tag it and edit it? Jim62sch 19:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if it's in a book somewhere, do we really need to list as his "nickname" something that he clearly doesn't like to be called? Perhaps, if there must be some mention of that name, it ought to be clearly noted as a name that was applied to him by others, not the name he chooses to be known as himself. (The legal threats and silly assertions by him are still ridiculous, and actually harm his case more than helping it, given that they make people angry who might have taken his side if he had been more reasonable about it.) *Dan T.* 19:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Jim, I understand what you're saying, but I would add this: the book, as far as I can tell (I admit, I haven't read it), is not really about Archimedes Plutonium. Rather, he appears in it briefly in the context of the book's theme, which is unrelated to the subject and unrelated to the subject's purported notability. In short, I don't see that the book establishes that the entry is encyclopaedic or notable. As for editing the entry, I can't see how to edit the entry to address the problems. The real issue is the existence of the entry, to which the subject has objected. And the real problem is that where editors are determined to retain the entry on grounds such as the existence of the book you mentioned, and in spite of the lack of notability of the subject, and in spite of the subject's objections, neither editing the entry nor yet another AfD seem avenues likely to address the real problems. FNMF 23:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Another contribution by AP. FNMF 22:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

interwiev Mr. Wales (Spain)

I am a Spanish journalist. I want to contact with Jimbo Wales -o with their press office - to make him an interview via e-mail, for a Spanish newspaper A greeting, ÁNGELES LÓPEZ <snipped to prevent spambots>

See Misplaced Pages:Contact us and Foundation:Press room. --h2g2bob (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic Slurred Nicknames and Misplaced Pages getting into trouble

Newsgroups: soc.history, sci.lang, misc.legal From: a_plutonium <a_pluton...@hotmail.com> Date: 10 May 2007 14:47:20 -0700 Local: Thurs, May 10 2007 4:47 pm Subject: Misplaced Pages insistence on giving ethnic slurred nicknames to innocent people

Misplaced Pages delights in throwing darts at innocent people whenever they can find something negative about a person they delight in pinning it on the person and then they justify it by saying it is their rules.

For example, I am a scientist but the only scientist pinned with a nickname and a ethnic slur of a nickname. My real nickname is AP, but since the hatemonger Eric Francis wrote "Arky" in his book, Misplaced Pages wants to laugh alongside Francis by trying to pin AP with that ethnic slur in Archimedes Plutonium's Misplaced Pages page.

Arkie / Arky (U.S.) similar to Okie, except from Arkansas instead of Oklahoma.

http://www.search.com/reference/List_of_ethnic_slurs#A

I keep telling Misplaced Pages that a person owns his or her nickname and has control over it. And that a person has to *want* a nickname before it can be used in an encyclopedia.

But the Wiki editors are too obtuse for the most part and too much into gathering laughs than to have serious and objective pages.

So I ask the question. Is the word "Arky" a profanity in some foreign languages. I know it is a ethnic slur in USA.

And I ask if Misplaced Pages continues to saddle me with a ethnic slur of a nickname that it is a civil lawsuit in the making?

Thanks for any answers.

P.S. I am thinking of contacting the State Attorney's Office and send a letter of reprimand to the Misplaced Pages foundation for the harrassement of private citizens. That Misplaced Pages just does not have their act together when it comes to nicknames. And that the Misplaced Pages organization has too many obtuse editors looking for laughs and not for the TRUTH.

P.S. post this also to Misplaced Pages discussion pages to Mr. Wales and to the Archimedes Plutonium entry.

Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.16.55.1 (talk) 21:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Do people from Arkansas constitute an ethnic group? Nigel Barristoat 23:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
That sounds like a No Legal Threats violation. *Dan T.* 02:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- This edit, where xe is clearly employing legal threats in an attempt to have editors stop editing an article, is an unequivocal violation. Uncle G 09:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

the usage of wikipedia-only/non-commercial purpose materials in Misplaced Pages

Hello Jimbo.

I am a humble member of Misplaced Pages community participating mainly in its german part I write to you, because as far as I know, this prohibiting guideline comes out directly from you, so you are the only appropriate person to talk on this topic.

So, I consider this guideline to be a huge mistake, and I'm sure that many authors are agree with me. It is absolutely clear that a permission is needed, to use diverse materials, otherwise it would be unlawful.
But using the materials in question, we can make it available and useful for everyone, at least inside Misplaced Pages. Because of this rule nobody can use it, also those who are you caring of. You don't help them in any way by such prohibition, but it harms Misplaced Pages from my point of view. --Prandr 16:02 CET, 11 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.142.137.24 (talk) 14:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Joe's page

I'm sure you're too busy to handle something as insignifigant as this, but if you get a chance, could you tell me if my user page has too much personal crap so that I can avoid a block?—Joe Jacard

I'll handle this one for you Jimbo, your userpage is absolutely fine - in fact, I like it! You really don't need to worry about a block, they don't get handed out willy nilly, it's only for very serious problems and as a protective measure for the encyclopedia. Keep up your great work :-) Ryan Postlethwaite 20:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It does

There is no reason that the article should not be sourced, however the removal of the information was done under false pretenses given the citing of BLP for a deceased individual. The protection of the page under the reason of "Edit war" seemed a little brisk too, considering by no objective viewer could that situation be considered an edit war with only two reverts total. When you are debating someone citing one policy, when there are violations of other policies in doing so, which policy trumps the other? If the answer is to ignore all rules then neither policy matters. My only aim on that page was to re-insert information removed because it was obvious it was removed without the person having read the article itself as evidenced by the citing of BLP for a dead man, why the page was locked after not even remotely reaching 3RR is beyond me.

So in conclusion I agree the article needs sourcing, I disagree on the methods taken to force the sourcing and strongly disagree with the protection of the page over a non-existent edit war. –– Lid 01:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but you are wrong. --Jimbo Wales 01:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to see which part is wrong, I agree with you that the article needs sourcing but disagree with the quick protection and methods that lead to the protection. I know your view on article sourcing, which is a point we agree upon, but I am unsure of your opinions on the protection or the methods that lead to the protection due to your vague replies, can you be more specific? –– Lid 02:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Pretty simple. If someone removes random crap from an article like that and asks for sources, cramming the crap back in is the wrong approach. Arguing that the guy is dead, and therefore BLP doesn't apply, is really a stretch. Quality matters. --Jimbo Wales 03:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I only did it in this case because of that stretch, although I will admit originally I saw it as detrimental and may have reverted at that time (though I felt justified in that during that period the editor in question was believed, and was also blocked for a period due to this belief, that they were a sock of a previously banned editor) I have since not ham-fistedly re-inserted information of this status back into articles excluding this single case. The quality does indeed matter, but also actually paying attention to what you are doing is just as important and I saw someone justifying their reasons with Biography Living Persons on a biography of a deceased person as simply ill-conceived. I won't re-insert the information, and in fact have no willingness to do so, I do however feel that the full protection should be lifted as there is no real dispute between the removal of the information, simply the reasons for the original removal of the information. –– Lid 03:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You wrote to an old conversation!

Post on my talk page a month too late!

Govvy, you are absolutely wrong in this. I will block if you continue to push this agenda. "At any time you shouldn't remove large amounts of information from bios even if it is wrong" is incorrect. The correct answer is "At any time you MUST remove large amounts of information from bios if it is wrong." Period. Misplaced Pages is not Myspace, we don't need shoddy crap. --Jimbo Wales 01:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

First off, you just said you would block me "for pushing an agenda"! I have no agenda, I follow etiquette and rules. Firstly saying you would block me, is considered a threat. Secondly I was trying to get some etiquette from Burntsauce, who continues to never cooperate with the Misplaced Pages Wrestling Project. Removing of large amounts of data with no explanations is vandalism. Burntsause never posted on the Project, so every time he does so without explanation I consider it vandalism. I made the point several times. I am not going to repeat myself to you, you should of read more. Like so many people on Misplaced Pages, the communication level is terrible, you should inform a project if a large scale of information is wrong. Hence, he has failed simple etiquette rules, hence, why I was upset. Now for you, please do a little more back tracking before you start running your mouth. Thanks. Govvy 13:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I can only repeat my warning to you.--Jimbo Wales 22:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

legal internships/externships (copy from meta)

Jimbo, does the foundation have any legal intern/externships? If I understand correctly, Brad left, and I'm not sure who to ask in the legal department: I emailed juriwiki-l. I'm a 1st year law student at American University, Washington College of Law (a top 50 school). I've worked in law firms for years from a file clerk to a research assistant, and I'd love to help you guys out. Also, conveniently I'm located in Florida (for the time being until I go back to D.C, though I spend my summers in Palm Beach Gardens), and I'm somewhat familiar with florida statute. Most importantly, I have quite a few contacts in Tallahassee from prior internships, lobbying work, and extensive family relationships in the legislature. I recently testified in front of the house commission on veterans affairs, and I've worked in the capitol as well. I hold a B.S. in political science from F.S.U. and a minor in communications. Let me know if this sounds like something you'd be interested in. I don't need to be paid, my family has plenty of ability to support me, and I'm financially stable. I just love Misplaced Pages and want to help it beyond my ability as just another en administrator. Credentials and information at my userpage ⇒ SWATJester 20:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I answered on meta. (Hi Jimbo) Anthere 21:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Award

Golden WikiAward

I, User:ISOLA'd ELBA would like to award you the Golden WikiAward for creating Misplaced Pages.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by ISOLA'd ELBA (talk • contribs) 22:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Philosophical remarks on a case instructive regarding the concept of "consensus"

Please excuse me as these comments are informal, though I have done a bit of thinking regarding these issues over the last weeks. My thoughts are still somewhat inchoate, so I hope clarity succeeds at least. I certainly don't expect and don't ask for an opinion regarding the facts of this case, as I feel that would be inappropriate. But I hope to hear anything you might have to say regarding these phenomena; or correct me if I'm ignorant about something.

This website's policies are largely governed by consensus. This is wise for a variety of reasons. Also let me say that, as regards the subject of this note, the article for a nice woman named Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, my sentiments against its existence have been made clear and detailed, shall I say articulated, in the relevant discussion pages.
With that out of the way, I present for your observation my thoughts on what I think is a misapprehension of the concept of "consensus" that I witnessed in many users' comments during the AfD and deletion review debates for this[REDACTED] article. I stress that I characterize the problem pejoratively not because some users did not agree with me -- I can accept people who disagree with me, and enjoy writing detailed notes to and fro with users of different persuasions. But I feel this project would only benefit from a clearer statement of what constitutes a consensus-based decision.
I've characterized elsewhere my ideal: a decision made by an admin which is, poetically speaking, half himself and half his audience. In other words, it's a desire for stronger admins. Is it because I dislike indecision? Partly, but what I dislike more is emotional-decision making, because such rationales are very often inarticulate, and therefore inaccessible to debate -- which easily breeds edit wars, acrimoniousness, and like.
Now, when I read the article I've cited, I feel as if there's no reason to have it here -- one's man's opinion, of course (if shared by others). The various article deletion/review pages, which you can find on it's talk page, ended on a note of "no consensus."
I can certainly imagine instances when, in the face of genuine differences of opinion, an admin may step back and recognize it would be wrong for him/her to decide on a matter of sheer opinion -- but I think that, before one gets to such a point, and this would require the admin know Misplaced Pages policy (as it currently stands) backwards and forwards (as they supposedly should/do), before one gets to such a point it is necessary to dismiss out-of-place, erroneous or inapplicable rationales used in argument. In such an ideal procedure I think we'd all find genuine matters of "no consensus" are exceedingly rare.
To take the instant case: I submit to you that a decision of "keep" would be impossible in the face of no rationale for such a decision. And likewise, by the understanding of "consensus" I am arguing against, a ruling of "delete" is also impossible, because of the lack of "consensus". But this lack, or this difference of opinion, is a sham controversy. The most usual abuse is seen when users treat discussions like votes. This is the reason legal matters are decided by judges very well versed in the law -- because opinions must be educated, which is demonstrated in the text of the rulings judges arrive at.
Admins must have the necessary spine, to put it bluntly, to cast aside the clamor seen in emotional debates such as regard the article in question, and keep the discussion entirely policy-based. The widespread misunderstanding of consensus, as it stands, creates a circumstance where articles cannot be judged either "delete" or "keep", and exist by virtue of a sham "no consensus". Anything is preferable to this kind of non-ruling ruling, because an articulated decision keeps the debate, the dialog, going; whereas the "no consensus" adjudication ends with great uncertainty, and therefore stifles and invalidates, the discussion. On a public forum such as this, isn't keeping dialog going simply paramount? Pablosecca 07:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is not a vote, or an appeal to popularity. 100 people citing WP:FRINGE derived references versus 1 person citing recognised impartial authorities (do I need mention Flat Earth vs. accepted scientific authority?) will result in the consensus going with the one. No consensus will result if both parties find good authorative sources to back their contention/interpretation. Unless an admin or 'crat can find a third authority which has already weighed the two arguments and has come up with a definitive answer then that admin/'crat must come to the verdict of no consensus. If consensus cannot be reached, then WP:NPOV demands that both viewpoints, properly referenced, should be included in an article. Where the existence of the article itself in debate, and an admin cannot decide on the consensus, then it probably needs to be taken to whichever area of dispute is appropriate and examined there. Again, this may not bring about a definitive result but that is always a possibility with a wiki. In the end, take issue to every forum possible until the processes are exhausted. If there is still no consensus then there is unlikely to be one.

Admins are part of the process, and not an entity that decides upon it. Being more or less brave is not part of the remit.LessHeard vanU 08:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

concern from a photographer (regarding english Misplaced Pages not accepting non-commercial photo licenses)

this is with reference to the article posted here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Fastfission/Noncommercial

i understand the concerns of[REDACTED] to a point, but i think if a NC-type license could allow commercial distribution of a media containing the work, it would be acceptable to wikipedia. as long as profits are not made by selling the content (i.e. intellectial property, in that case, photos), i would have no problem releasing my photos with such a NC license.

my concern is that if i license my photos with the "attribution" CC (i.e. allowing commercial use), magazines will be able to include my photos in any article that they publish without having to pay me any royalties for my work.

this is why i will not license most of my photos with GFDL license. to me, NC is acceptable and i would have no problem releasing many of my photos under NC license for inclusing in wikipedia. GFDL is not acceptable, since it means that all my work is free for all and i cannot make a living anymore.

this argument has not been mentioned in the article, and it is a very valid argument for photographers. Misplaced Pages seem to consider that photographers do not need to pay their rents and should work for free. that's not the case.

of course, there will be some photographers who don't care about money and will release their photos with GFDL, but the average quality of those photos is likely to be much lower compared to those from "professional" photographers.

i was contacted by the author of the Misplaced Pages article on the Semana Santa in Sevilla (spanish version), who wanted to include my photos of the event in the article, as he considered that they were among the best he had seen on this subject. i had to decline, unfortunately, because doing that would open a pandora's box for me, i.e. any magazine or post-card publisher would be able to use those photos without paying me any royalties for my work. in the end, i personally prefer making a living from my photography work rather than having my photos in Misplaced Pages.

the same situation arised ealier about the article on "dog meat" (i.e. eating dog meat). i have an excellent series of photos illustrating this subject, but i cannot release them with GFDL, since they are published by magazines who pay me royalties. in that case, my series of photos is linked in the external links (under the fair-use rule?). but apparently in the spanish wikipedia, it is not acceptable to even link an external website containing photos unless that external website have only GFDL photos, so the author of the "semana santa in sevilla" article refused to link my photos, claiming such an external link was against the rules of spanish[REDACTED] even though they are linked in the english version of the article.

in this article "User talk:Fastfission/Noncommercial", the author(s) only consider cases where the Misplaced Pages content might need to be involved with some commercial use. but what concerns me is that my GFDL photos could be used independently of any Misplaced Pages article, i.e. they could be lifted from the Wiki Commons and used with a completely different context (e.g. a magazine, or postcards), without me getting any royalties when it is used commercially. this situation is definitely not fair for the photographer. i would love to donate some of my photos to Misplaced Pages but this licensing policy prevents me from doing that, or robs me of the value of my work, if it gets used commercially by others than Misplaced Pages.

-tristan - www.loupiote.com - tristan@bok.net

Personally I share your point completely. I think it is wrong that all authors are being forced to release their works under GFDL licence. And you have brilliantly explained why. That's one more reason to take out this rule (see also my post on this topic above). Let us see if Jimbo is going to ignore this too. --Prandr 12:58 CET, 13 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.142.156.76 (talk) 10:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Just as a note, but many photographers do release their images with free or GFDL images. One of such users is User:Diliff. --Kzrulzuall 11:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The Use of a free license by Misplaced Pages is intentional, and a central part of our project. If you don't want your material to be used outside Misplaced Pages, don't expect to upload it to Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 12:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm personally quite chuffed at seeing photographs I've uploaded being used in publications, despite neither Misplaced Pages nor myself being credited.--Alf 12:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The reasoning you put forward, tristan, is absolutely sound, and you should not donate your photos to Misplaced Pages if doing so robs you of their commercial value. It may be possible to donate a low resolution copy if that suits you, but generally to meet its objectives Misplaced Pages has to make do with photos that are available on a free license. Some of them aren't bad, but in every case the photographer has to decide if any pleasure of seeing their photos used outweighs the commercial value of the photographs. Inevitably that tends to mean that professional photographers will not wish to supply pictures, quite rightly. ... dave souza, talk 13:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Alf, if you are not credited, then both GFDL and CC-BY allow you to sue. :-)--Kim Bruning 13:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Tristan, Prandr: Misplaced Pages is intended to be a copyleft encyclopedia, with all the advantages and disadvantages of such. This is a conscious choice, which we are unlikely to reverse in future. One of the big advantages is that it means[REDACTED] can be distributed and shared by all, including (famously, among others) the OLPC project. One of the disadvantages is that it means we sadly cannot always accept all content. --Kim Bruning 13:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read this at first. --Prandr 16:02 CEST, 13 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.142.156.76 (talk) 14:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

I note that the GFDL may suit your needs better than you think. The GFDL is intended as a "strong copyleft" license, which means that you cannot use a GFDL work as part of an another work without also making the combined work, such as a magazine article, free also. Many commercial publications aren't willing to do this, and you still hold the copyright to the images to make other arrangements as you would like -- several photographers who contribute work to Misplaced Pages also sell their photos.

The idea of strong copyleft is that you make your work free as a way to get others to create more work that is free and increase the amount of material available for the public to distribute and use, but only if they are willing to do that.

Many other copyleft licenses, such as CC-BY-SA which Misplaced Pages also accepts, have similar properties. However, many people from Creative Commons interpret BY-SA as a "weak copyleft", which allows you to use the work contained in works that aren't themselves free, so long as you keep the work itself and to a certain extent, its derivatives, free. To what extent its derivatives have to be free is not always clear. Larry Lessig takes the position that CC-BY-SA does not obligate a journalist to free a newspaper article where a CC-BY-SA photo is used in this post, though he is wrong about the FSF's position on the GFDL recently clarified here. However, he also takes the position that setting video to music should be considered a derivative work.

Depending on your needs and goals, you can license your works under a combination of licenses; many people who upload their own works use a "dual-license", or even "multi-license" under a variety of free-content licenses so that people can use them in a variety of ways. The most popular combination is probably GFDL and CC-BY-SA. You also still hold the copyright to your work and can offer it elsewhere however you would like. If you upload to Wikimedia as GFDL, you must allow anyone to use it under the GFDL. However, if you want to give permission for some uses or to charge for some uses that are outside of those terms, you are still free to do that. Cheers, Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 19:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I just see this as bizarre. It seems a tad restrictive for Misplaced Pages to force someone to give their work unconditionally. Sure, I might agree with Misplaced Pages's use of the image, but the GFDL means that anyone can use it, for any means. I am like many unwilling to put good work on the Wiki, knowing others can simply take it and use it without authorization. After having a photo I created stolen and credited to a staff photog in a magazine, I can attest that this is simply bad policy. "Weak Copyleft" doesn't cover it all. David Fuchs 19:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

David, is this a response to my post or was it written beforehand and posted after edit conflict? GFDL is not "unconditionally". (Actually, the usual complaint is that the conditions are too restrictive...) And under any license that requires attribution, having your work stolen and credited to a staff photog is not acceptable, and you can and should contact them about their violation of the license. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 19:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

After edit conflict, Mindspillage got there before I did. Having your work mis-credited to a staff photographer is not on, and I don't quite think that that's quite permitted under the GFDL. ;-) --Kim Bruning 19:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC) thinking of a certain "Weird Al" Yankovic song

From my point of view, nobody looks in the question deep enough. The supporters of this restriction claim that Wikpedia must be usable for everyone. But using the materials in question, we can make it available and useful really for everyone, at least inside Misplaced Pages. Because of this rule nobody can use it, also those who are you caring of. It doesn't helps them if we don't use them, IMHO it only harms Misplaced Pages --Prandr 13:32 CEST, 13 May 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.142.156.76 (talk) 21:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

But that is not a choice we make. That's the choice made by the photographer.

Whatever the case may be, we're only paying over a million dollars per year to host fully free content.

Knowing that, if we have a choice between spending some of that money on hosting for instance a non-free photograph of a pretty flower (something we can also make ourselves, eventually); or if we spend some same amount on some like say ... the collected works of William Shakespeare (now in public domain); we can only spend the money once. Which should we choose? --Kim Bruning 22:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)