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Parasites/Medicinal Value
as the intense vomiting it produces can clear the body of dangerous worms and other parasites common in the rainforest.
This seems a little unlikely, as most parasites live in the intestines, not the stomach, and no matter how intense the vomiting is, it's unlikely to cause partially digested food to reverse its course along the small intestines, pass by the Duadnum/Pyloric valve and exit through the stomach/esophagus. Parasites don't really do too well in the stomach, as it's a pretty hostile environment, what with the Hydrochloric acid and all. I suggest we remove this section unless there's some evidence somewhere to back this up. Note: purgatives are certainly sometimes useful in medicine, but the removal of parasites specifically is what seems incorrect to me. --User:Overand @ public terminal 160.39.225.2 09:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
the ayahuasca treatment as i understand it traditionally includes extensive dietary restrictions for days before and after, and fasting on the day of drinking the brew, which most certainly does have an effect on the intestines, and on any parasites therein, and purging thru vomiting is not universal although common, purging thru defecation does also happen and perhaps these are the cases anecdotally referred to as clearing parasites... perhaps the reference to clearing parasites can remain while the vomiting being the cause of their removal be edited.
- It should be reworded- first, we're talking about traditional usages, ie what they use it for rather than what it actually does. but perhaps more importantly, it shouldn't say "vomiting"- it can (and often does) cause intense diarhea as well, it just gets everything movin' in there, and can keep it movin for days afterwards . . . --heah 08:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
This text should be revised to mention the anthelmintic properties of harmala alkaloids (particularly harmine and harmaline), which actually do reach the large intestines (Hassan, I. 1967. Some folk uses of Peganum harmala in India and Pakistan. Economic Botany 21: 384.). Thus, this action is two-fold; a direct action on the parasites by these harmala alkaloids (particularly harmine in ayahuasca) AND through increased intestinal motility that is caused by these alkaloids. Jcc 30 June 06
Recipe?
Would some sort of example recipe be apropriate, or should we just leave readers to work it out from the external links?
- The text already provides the basic recipe (boil stuff up). I think for specific recipes (and there are many of them possible, with lots of different plants) the external links are sufficient. (Also, providing a recipe would make the page illegal in certain countries, e.g. Australia.) -- Rkundalini 01:08, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- <:<:<:<:<:<:<:<>:>:>:>:>:>:>:>:
As I am an Ayahuasca drinker myself, I strongly agree with you. Misplaced Pages should not go into this kind of detail, as it may be even harder to American Ayahuasca users to have the freedom do take the tea. As you might know, it is stil in dispute the legal right to drink the concoction within the American territory, and one of the arguments of the prosecutor was exactly that it might "spread its evil effects in "the American Youth".
Moreover, Giving the recipe here is overflowing the scope of Misplaced Pages, as I see it.
spirit in the city?
has anyone read "spirit in the city"? i haven't; from examining it online it seems to be about how to bring shamanistic religion into your life, but isn't about ayahuasca. but i could be wrong, so please say something if i am- otherwise i think the book should be deleted. there are a million books on shamanism, and imho the list here should only have books particularly relevant to ayahuasca (as all the others are.) eg, i don't think there should be any michael harner books on the list either . . .
- Ross, i removed your book from the list because it isn't about ayahuasca. [REDACTED] is not the place to advertise yourself and its against the rules to do so. If you write a book about ayahuasca feel free to put a link to it here; but otherwise, your book is just one of thousands about co-opting ancient spiritual practices into new age drivel. for instance, shamanism should certainly NOT be employed to help Nike become a bigger company, like in that one article on your site . . . It is a religious path essentially diametrically opposed to consumerism and capitalism. But that doesn't even matter, as this entry is for ayahuasca, not shamanism. ayahuasca is not in any way related to voodoo, except in that voodoo incorporates ecstatic techniques and ayahuasca creates one. thanks for understanding. Heah 19:54, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A lot of work in perspective...
Hello to all past and present contributors,
I have rewrited the first phrase to avoid the classic confusion between vine and tea, and to restore priorities: as almost all other vernacular names, ayahuasca firstly refers to the vine.
In reading the history of this article, I realized it is some kind of stalactite: successive depositions around an almost unchanged initial nucleus, without other guiding strategy than a form of crude gravitational force. Clearly a deep reorganization around a well thought-out architecture is needed for this article to honor its subject. My proposal is to structure it along botanical, anthropological, pharmacological, and psychological aspects, with notes and references. A lot of work...
I have reformatted the Books section according to a mixed MLA (the italics) - APA style (the rest), combining lisibility, accuracy, and handiness (ISBN links). It is also enriched in scholar references. Doctorcito 18:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- sounds good to me, doc. if you need a hand, just tell me what to do. I'd be more than happy to help you out where needed, especially with grammer and stuff. I feel much more comfortable with your scholarly analysis and contribution than mine! Heah 19:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
constituents
Wouldn't it be appropriate to mention that under US law some of the chemical constituents are legal, and others are not? B. caapi is grown commercially within the US, and contains no banned alkaloids.
Also, should Syrian rue really be listed here? Yeah, it's a good MAOI source, but it's not a traditional ingredient in ayahuasca. It's an old-world plant, not an amazonian one, and the name "ayahuasca" also refers to the B. caapi vine. (I hear the vine and Syrian rue have subtly different effects, as well, but not having had ayahuasca I wouldn't know.)
- technically, none of the plants are scheduled, and can all be bought, sold, imported, and so on; they are also grown commercially within the us. concoctions made from these plants, on the other hand, are illegal- ie ayahuasca tea, as a prepared dmt drink. ayahuasca has never officially been scheduled but has occasionally shown up as a scheduled substance because of the dmt. perhaps there should be a little something about all that. as for the rue and caapi, i kinda think this just needs a lot of rewording and reworking. i feel like rue should at least be mentioned, as people have different ideas of what ayahuasca is. you're right, of course, and from what my good friend tells me the differences aint so subtle.Heah 14:55, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"technically" speaking, such beverages are decoctions, not concoctions. Jcc 30 June 06
Cultural bias
Edited the page a little to remove some of the cultural bias (more correctly, ignorance of the indigenous cultures using ayawaska) which gave this article a strongly Euro-American viewpoint that ayawaska is only a psychedelic and that DMT is an essential element. DMT is not essential, and ayawaska is used for non-psychedelic medicinal purposes as well. Murple 31 Aug 2005
- I agree with above, the people who continually associate ayawaska users with thrill seeking drug users are frankly fucking arseholes who do not have the slightest idea what the are talking about. Dirk Diggler Jnr 11:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely couldnt agree more. also ayahuasca Analogues which do not contain b.Caapi are NOT AYAHUASCA and should not be called as such. These druggy fools are not only completely disrespectfuly but linguistic simpletons. As for "pharmayhuasca" that is a total joke and insult to the culture of Ayahuasca. Its basically calling some chemical concoction "drug vine". Imbeciles.
Interating how the cultural bias comes through in this section on cultural bias! By the way, the correct spelling is 'pharmahuasca', and I don't see much use in these judgemental lables for these so-called fornicating rectums or 'druggy fools'. Seems to me that ayahuasca, and the alkaloids therein, are used to expand awareness rather than contract it. Could we try to be a little more patient with those who are not as far along the path? Jcc 30 June 06
Opening
The article opeing needs to be fixed, it uses way too detailed language. The whole article doesn't need to be in the 1st sentence. Something like "Ayahuasca can be either a giant Amazonian vine or the psychoactive infusions prepared from it." would be much more consise and be easier to read. -Ravedave 05:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"retreats"
I've removed all the "retreats" from the churches section pending discussion. i'm sorry, i know many of you are good people doing good things, but it just smacks too much of spam. i don't think they are really valid external links under the external links guidelines. So we should discuss this. the ones i removed are below. --heah 18:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- www.wanamey.org
- www.heartoftheinitiate.com
- www.a-keys.nl/ayahuasca/
- www.naturezadivina.org/home_us.htm
From a conversation with heart of the initiate, so anyone else interested can weigh in:
I appreciate the work you guys are doing, but i'm really not sure that your library qualifies as a valid external link under the[REDACTED] external link guidelines. particularly the first few "links that should normally be avoided":
- Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Misplaced Pages:Featured article.
- Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, as detailed in Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources.
- A website that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked to. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important objective at Misplaced Pages, and a difficult one. If it is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let other — neutral — Misplaced Pages editors decide whether to add the link.
Your library, while perhaps being written with an eye to different aspects of the human condition, don't seem to have a whole lot to do with ayahuasca, per se. A collection of links to lots of articles about ayahuasca might be one thing, but almost the entire thing is written by the guy who runs your organization, ralph miller, with a handful from stewie wild.
As for soga del alma and wasiwaska-- soga del alma has a chapel, yes, but they are also a legally recognized religion in the country of peru, with members from all over. And they don't seem to really run retreats, although they do host the yearly conference. wasiwaska--which i don't think there is actually a link to--is primarily a research facility, not a place running ayahuasca retreats.
I really don't mean to denigrate the work that you guys are doing. i'm just not sure what your link adds to the article that makes it link-worthy under EL guidelines. You say that you are one of the older and more popular ayahuasca retreat centers, but i'm not sure that that, in itself, is something that would make your site worthy of a link. there are LOTS of retreat centers these days, and linking to them seems to go against EL guidelines. generally, as a rule, businesses just don't get linked to. I know that you guys are not in this for the money; running ayahuasca retreats in the jungle isn't something one gets into for the cash. but the fact remains: your website exists primarily to inform and attract people regarding your own retreat center. the library consists almost entirely of the thoughts of ralph miller. generally, operations such as yours just don't get linked to.
anyone else care to voice an opinion?
--heah 20:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Misplaced Pages that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 03:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Bogus Link
Someone put up a link to an organization calling itself aurorbaha in the organization's section http://www.aurorabaha.org/ . This link is bogus for the purposes of this entry. It is actually related to the Baha'i faith and has absolutely nothing to do with any bona fide ayahuasca group. As such it has been taken out.Thamarih 07:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The individual responsible for the Aurora Baha link has taken it upon themselves to delete a log in a discussion regarding an article. This is sockpuppetry and against wikipedia's terms of service. The link has been taken out again, together with the comments of said individual. Thamarih 02:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
And they are once again doing it. This individual is a sockpuppet. Administrators be warned. Thamarih 06:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Administrators, the individual with the handle Aurora Baha is committing sockpuppetry, malicious deleting and changing entries. Per the Wiki terms of service, I ask their account be temporarily suspended Thamarih 07:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The sockpuppeteer AuroraBaha is removing links and adding material to this site that does not meet Misplaced Pages standards. The link for the Fatimiya Sufi Order was indeed added in July of this year. That this individual has now removed it needs intervention by the administrators. This individual is vandalizing this page Thamarih 09:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The sockpuppeteer AuroraBaha has made an unsubstantiated claim regarding his group. Inquiries have been made to the bona fide ayahuasca churches, and no one in South America has heard of it. Until such time as they can demonstrate membership, administrators be warned that this individual is committing sockpuppetry Thamarih 09:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. - AuroraBaha
- You are NOT Assuming Good Faith in Violation of Misplaced Pages Policy - List of supporting evidence follows -
- Engaged in malicious personal attacks in violation of No Personal Attacks Policy; lying generally, but specifically about ownership of Aurora Baha's domain and its legitimacy as a Religious Society; User Thamarih is a sockpuppet of Curandero101 and has been previously blocked for similar activity; Repeated Violation of three-revert rule for which user has been blocked previously; Repeated Violation of Conflict of Interest by posting external link to personal website of "Fatimiya Sufi Order" under Ayahuasca Churches; claim WITHOUT ANY SUPPORTING EVIDENCE that user Aurora Baha is a sockpuppet - AuroraBaha
Inauthentic Link
The website www.auroabaha.com is registered to an individual, one Seven Thunders also going by the name Lobo. It therefore has no independent value.Thamarih 09:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Lobo aka Aurorabaha's idea of truth
Lobo, has the truth prevailed about your claim,
"I am of Taino descent born in the Quisqueya/Hispaniola, the first place in modern history where the use of the Sacrament (in the form of Cahoba) was recorded, in 1496. I became a Pipe-Carrier in 1996 and had Hambleche on Bear Butte with a Lakota Sun Dance chief; Keeper of the Elks Altar (this elder is well known by the Altar he Keeps). I acquired my pipe-stone directly at the quarry in Minnesota and carved both the pipes which I now carry. I began to work with the Shipibo-Conibo in 2001, and was given Camalongo as a plant to diet with - hence I became a Camalongero; In March of 2002, in the Peruvian Amazon, I received the Fire Altar of Purification of the Eagle and the Condor when the Pipe and Ayahuasca were brought together; I was later initiated as an Ayahuasquero. A banco (bench), serving as a specific function and tool of the Mother, is always bestowed by La Divina Madre Herself - a matter clear to those who have sat in ceremonies with one. "
The thread is here: http://ayahuasca.tribe.net/thread/82db6f81-9517-4572-8c4d-ba945ea96783
When you said to me in email in February,
"''Regrettably, though mostly of Lebanese decent, my family uprooted from Lebanon (Miziara Region - NE of Tripoli, and about 25 minutes from Khalil Gibrans home) and relocated to the Caribean Islands. Hence, my first language is Spanish...I have only begun learning Arabic in more recent years''."
Yes, let the truth prevail indeed. Your website is registered to yourself. Neither the Santo Daime, the UdV, or any number of offshoots in SA have heard of AuroraBaha. Obviously the truth has prevailed - publicly today - that you have a proclivity to fudge it. Thamarih 09:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Administrators, note that the sockpuppeteer Aurorabaha has registered under another name, i.e. Ayahuasca Churches, and is once again removing items from the main article.Thamarih 01:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Also note that sockpuppeteer Aurorabaha removed the item under IP address 66.68.115.56 which is registered to ROAD RUNNER CO HOLDCO registered in TEXAS AUSTIN ROAD RUNNER HOLDCO LLC, i.e. the location and IP of Aurorabaha aka Seven Thunders aka Lobo Siete Truenos. This is a blatant case of sockpuppetry. This action also violates the 3RR rule. Thamarih 05:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- Please stop. If you continue to make personal attacks on other people, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Thank you. - AuroraBaha
- You are NOT Assuming Good Faith in Violation of Misplaced Pages Policy - List of supporting evidence follows -
- Engaged in malicious personal attacks in violation of No Personal Attacks Policy; lying generally, but specifically about ownership of Aurora Baha's domain and its legitimacy as a Religious Society; User Thamarih is a sockpuppet of Curandero101 and has been previously blocked for similar activity; Repeated Violation of three-revert rule for which user has been blocked previously; Repeated Violation of Conflict of Interest by posting external link to personal website of "Fatimiya Sufi Order" under Ayahuasca Churches; claim WITHOUT ANY SUPPORTING EVIDENCE that user Aurora Baha is a sockpuppet - AuroraBaha
Authentic Link
Aurora Baha is a legally documented Religious Society which utilizes the Sacrament Ayahuasca. We are intimately involved in alliances with other Ayahuasqueros and other Churches involved with the Religious/Sacramental use of Ayahuasca, with a view towards Universalism and the Gathering of all peoples in Peace.
Any claims to the contrary is by a certain individual who abhores the fact that we hold certain Spiritual tenants of Baha'u'llah [Baha'i Faith] as important to our Religious view, and have made it their personal crusade to defame anything Baha'i or Baha'i tolerant.
This matter was refered to Misplaced Pages for Vandalism for the original removal of the listing under Ayahuasca Churches and for the false allegations made by the same person.
I have temporarily left the link out until such time as it is independently added by a different party, we having become aware of Wikipedias "Conflict of Interest" policy. Thank you for making us aware of the policy.
I have also removed the link to "Fatimiya Sufi Order" which was added by the sockpuppeteer Curandero101 on July 10, 2006 and is the alternate (sockpuppet) of the individual Thamarih who originally vandalised the Aurora Baha Church link. The link to the "Fatimiya Sufi Order" removed is the personal creation (and website) of the same Thamarih/Curandero101 and is therefore subject to the same independent review and "conflict of Interest Policy". This user has been formally reported for being a sockpuppet of Curandero101, the third of such incidence against him. He has presently already had two accounts closed for sockpuppet activity and has had his sockpuppeteer account temporarily blocked for the behaviour on several occasions.
added by Aurorabaha
Domain registration of Aurora Baha at aurorabaha.org is in truth registered to the Religious Society :
Domain ID:D118493370-LROR
Domain Name:AURORABAHA.ORG
Registrant ID:SPAG-34587500
Registrant Name:Aurora Baha
Registrant Organization:Aurora Baha - Spiritual Society
added by Aurorabaha
- reinstated comment, slightly out of place now: WP:EL specifically prohibits adding links to your own website. if people think it should be added after discussion here, then we can add it.
- from what i understand, the disagreement between you and thamarih goes back some ways, but regardless of that or what he thinks of you and your site, you're simply not allowed to add links to your own site. sorry.
- --heah 06:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE COMMENTS FROM TALK PAGES. blanking is considered vandalism. assuming good faith, you probably though that since it was resolved, you could remove it, but DO NOT DO THIS under ANY circumstance except vandalism. we don't simply delete comments here, we archive them, so everything is available for viewing.
- I'm not sure what truth you seem to believe is prevailing by giving the domain and so on of your site . . . but if the edit warring doesn't all stop, this page will be protected, and one or both of you WILL BE BLOCKED FOR three-revert rule, which stipulates that no one may revert a page, in whole or in part more than 3 times in 24 hours. --heah 15:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Misplaced Pages policies are to be applied uniformly. Personal Attacks, reverting more than three times, and Conflict of Interest posts are all violations. In addition so is sockpuppetting and vandalism. After learning about the 3RR and Conflict of Interest policy we refrained from any other modification. As to the other various violations which user Thamarih/Curandero101 is clearly responsible for (and has previously been blocked for), it has been formally reported to Misplaced Pages. AGAIN, POLICIES ARE TO BE APPLIED UNIFORMLY. P.S. Good-faith includes Not-Biting the Newcomers. Misplaced Pages:Don't_bite_the_newcomers - Aurorabaha
Sockpuppetry by Aurorabaha
The sockpuppet Aurorabaha is continuing their violation of Wiki policies and has been reverting items in the main article without justification ans blanking comments in the discussions. They are doing this under IP address 66.68.115.56 which is registered to ROAD RUNNER CO HOLDCO registered in TEXAS AUSTIN ROAD RUNNER HOLDCO LLC, i.e. the location and IP of Aurorabaha aka Seven Thunders aka Lobo Siete Truenos. Such items have been put back again. Thamarih Thamarih 23:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Remove P.J. O Rourke quote.
I suggest that the PJ quote in this article be removed.
His account of the experience differs radically from any other account we have seen, especially when he claims that he did not get sick.
Perhaps he missed the intense nausea everyone else did through divine providence. Or perhaps the unidentified rum punch which he drank was not Yage. Zenexp 01:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
After taking Ayahuasca for the first time myself, I did not vomit. Granted I took a very small dosage (4 grams Mimosa Hostiles, 2 grams Syrian Rue), I did feel nauseated for a brief period but did not vomit. 74.230.147.81
Fatimiya Sufi Order
Someone (possibly the Aurorabaha clown) keeps taking out this entry. This is a legitimate Ayahausca group. Please note that the person or persons removing this entry are doing so out of pure politically motivated malice.Thamarih 02:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The person who removed the Fatimiya Sufi Order gave no reason for removing it. The Fatimiya Sufi Order is not a commercial venture. It is a bona fide Ayahuasca Church like the others except, like PaDeva, it is not Christian. If you decide to remove it, please give reason and not just nonchalantly place it under a commercial rubric when it isn't. Thank you. Thamarih (talk) 10:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- There's no evidence that this "sufi order" exists beyond the single blog page that isn't even supported on its own server. That page makes no connection to the subject matter at hand. See WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOTDIR & WP:INDISCRIMINATE. MARussellPESE (talk) 02:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The person MARussellPESE is an ideological hack of the Haifan Bahai organization who regularly (together with his other members of the Bahai IT committee active on wikipedia) regularly puts a spin all of the articles on[REDACTED] to a specifically Bahai bias. The Fatimiya Sufi Order is a bona fide incorporated body at law in Australia and has a membership. If Mr Russel and his harassing Bahai cohorts do not cease their harassment we are happy to take the matter to a higher legal authority. Thamarih (talk) 06:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
tone
I just jumped in an worked on the Westerner and "tourism" thing to give it a more 'pedic tone. If anything's gone awry cause of that, apologies. Wasn't till I read earlier talk stuff that realised the article keeps getting pocked. Would be a pity to spoil some interesting stuff here.Julia Rossi 04:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
- I removed the tags for now since the section has been heavily revised since they were placed. If anyone still sees issues with the tone or the neutrality, please explain here. —Celithemis 01:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
MAOI and tyramine
This article portrays the MAOIs in ayahuasca to be deadly in combination with certain diets. In reality, the pressor amine "tyramine" present in aged foods, has a higher affinity for the MAO enzyme than do the "reversible", selective MAO-A inhibitors, harmaline, harmine, etc.
The extreme dietary restrictions are associated with pharmaceutical MAOI's which are irreversible, unfortunately someone somewhere began proliferating the misunderstanding that since beta-carbolines are a kind of MAOI, they are unsafe to consume unless you follow a strict diet. This is not the case, and gets people unneccesarily worried about consuming harmala alkaloids.
"Activation" by MAOI
It's incorrect to state that MAOI activates DMT. DMT is already active. Instead, the MAOI inhibits (that's what the I stands for) de-activation which would otherwise occur in the gut. 76.200.150.238 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Experience
Should there be a discussion/description about/of the typical Ayahuasca experience, if for no other reason than as something of a public service warning? The typical brew (caapi/viridans) can be particularly intense and I saw only one passing reference to that effect.
There is also wider interest in the symbology of hallucinagenics, and Ayahuasca - for whatever reason - seems to produce something of a uniform hallucinatory experience.
That is, most users experience/report similar states and symbolism: otherworldly entities, out-of-body experiences, etc.
I realize, on the other hand, that such a discussion might not coincide with the Misplaced Pages mission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bezoris (talk • contribs) 23:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
strongest natural drug?
is ayahuasca strongest natural drug what planet earth has ever had? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pentagonshark666 (talk • contribs) 14:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)