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This article was nominated for deletion on 20 March 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on 6 October 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This page has been cited as a source by a notable professional or academic publication: Baroness Sarah Ludford, Member of the European Parliament: "MEP urges investigation of Jeremiah Duggan's death"

Jewish

Chip, I'm wondering about this edit. His family has always stressed this, because they feel he was targeted as a result of it, at least in part. The article does make clear further down that he's Jewish, where it says he stood up during the conference and declared it, but I felt we should make it clear earlier on, given its alleged relevance. SlimVirgin 19:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Jermiah was raised Jewish, but it is not equivalent to say that the father is from a country and the mother is from a religion/ethnic group.

It is like saying someone's father is Austrian and his mother is Catholic. It is a big no no--Cberlet (talk) 22:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right that it could be phrased differently, but I still think it would be better to have his ethnicity in the early life section, given its relevance. I'm willing to leave it out if you really think that's best, but my preference is to have it in. SlimVirgin 22:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

We can only summarize the info we have. According to Duggan's mother's statement here, she is Jewish and her husband was born in Ireland. She doesn't say where she was born, or what religion her husband follows (except that he isn't Jewish). If that's what we know that's what we should say. I'm sure we can find way of conveying it that doesn't make the two equivalent. Perhaps:

• Duggan was born in London, the son of Hugo, who has was born in Ireland, and Erica, is Jewish and who followed Jewish traditions on raising her son.

That's not quite it either... ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think SlimVirgin had it right when she referred to the "alleged relevance." I also think that Cberlet had it right when he objected to a formulation that emphasized the religious orientation of the mother, while omitting that of the father -- it is a compination of undue weight and WP:SYNTH, because it would be an attempt to slant the article in a way so as to promote a theory that Duggan was a victim of anti-semitism, without providing a reliable source. I propose that you leave the article as is, unless you have a quote from the mother that explicitly says "I think my son was targetted by antisemitism," and then it would have to be properly sourced (not from a self-published site like Justice for Jeremiah.") It seems highly speculative and therefore the sourcing requirements must be stringent. --Marvin Diode (talk) 06:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

By whom is Justice for Jeremiah self-published? Anyway there are other sources that describe Duggan as Jewish. The ethnic and religious heritage are important to any biography. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added the text I drafted above. Further improvements are welcome. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Improper use of a foreign language source

I have been following the discussion of this article at the Misplaced Pages Review, and I agree that the following source should not be used: this translation by an unknown translator of the "Berliner Zeitung" is hosted on a self-published website. We have no way of knowing whether the translation is accurate. --Zola says (talk) 07:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppets are no welcome on this topic. Please edit here under your main account.   Will Beback  talk  07:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Helloooo....I love everyone on Wiki and on the wiki-review! Kisses! But the new account is right, there is a problem with the article here: The article in BZ says, that they put Jeremiah "through the wringer" and Misplaced Pages cites this as "in the wringer". So, not even citation is correct.

Cheerio! Love you all! 81.210.193.64 (talk) 14:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, another mystery editor. Regarding foreign language sources, there's always a problem with translations. Whether translated by Google or Babelfish, by partisan movements, by regular Misplaced Pages editors or by mystery editors, there is always a question about the accuracy.   Will Beback  talk  17:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I am distributing Hugs, Kisses and Corrections. Do you find that "mysterious"? Do you want a big Bear Hug? Cheerio! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.210.193.64 (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Whoever you are, mystery editor, the correction has already been made. The text of the article says "through the wringer".   Will Beback  talk  18:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Love and Kisses and a big Bear Hug to Will! Cheerio! 81.210.193.64 (talk) 19:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

If someone wants to question a translation, they should make specific points in doing so. Which aspects of this translation are deemed questionable? Everyking (talk) 01:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't quite understand, actually. The IP says it should be "through the wringer" instead of "in the wringer". But the article has always said "through". I'd assume that it's an idiomatic metaphore, not a literal claim. Maybe the IP misread this article.   Will Beback  talk  01:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Quite metaphorical. That particular expression is more common in German than in English (for whatever reason ;) ). It says "in the wringer" on the website. Just a Germanism; the translation was not done by a native speaker. --JN466 01:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I've checked the translation on justiceforjeremiah.com. It is pretty accurate; small mistakes I found are: the number of the road is wrong; it is B 455 in the original, not 445; the original does not say "that Jeremiah had rubbed the cadre school's organisers up the wrong way", it just says "Es stellte sich heraus, dass Jeremiah dort angeeckt war," meaning he had rubbed (unspecified) "people" the wrong way. The rest is sometimes a bit clunky, but generally quite accurate. I've linked to the German original, and left the translation as a secondary link. --JN466 01:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, so its metaphorical, not literal. Very disappointing. I had thought Larouche to be more evil than this, but if he only uses metaphorical wringers and no literal ones..Thats disappointing. Anyway, Cheers, and Hugs and Kisses and a big Bear Hug to Will for being such a cutie! 81.210.193.175 (talk) 04:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Mail and times

Jayen, you were saying on the LaRouche talk page that some issues here were unclear, so I've restored some earlier material that I'd removed as too detailed. The problem has been that LaRouche accounts have insisted some material be removed, then have later complained that it wasn't clear how certain issues were linked. I've therefore restored some of that material, including one of the sources who said LaRouche had stayed on for a few days after the conference, as you requested. The article is still only 22 kB of prose, so the extra details haven't made it too long. Thanks for checking that translation. SlimVirgin 21:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, will have a look through. I restored that part about him saying to his girlfriend he feared he had an implant in his body; that seems striking. One thing that's just occurred to me is that we may be quoting times from two different time zones. When Jeremiah spoke to his mum in England, it was 5.30 in Germany (and 4.30 in the UK). However, when we say that he called his girlfriend in Paris at 4:15 a.m, that would seem to have been Central European Time (France and Germany are in the same time zone, the UK is not). Is the 4:15 am time from the BBC programme? At any rate, if he called his girlfriend at 4:15 CET and his mum at 4:30 UK time, there would have been more than an hour between the two calls. --JN466 21:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Just parking a source for potential use later: --JN466 21:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

We say, "It is not known where these telephone calls were made from". That is not in the source; the source just says the calls were not made from a mobile he had been lent. --JN466 22:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Jayen, is there a reason you keep adding the Mail? What it says is repetitive, and it's best to stick to the highest-quality newspapers. SlimVirgin 22:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see the above. Combining the headers. SlimVirgin 22:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Be careful about OR regarding the times. First, we should stick to the best sources for them. Secondly, bear in mind that time differences vary across the year; we'd need to know what the differences were in March 2003. And third, it's possible the newspapers themselves got confused. Probably the clearest sources on this issue are those written just after the inquest, because they would have been referring to official documents. Where there is confusion, we should clarify in a footnote. SlimVirgin 22:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The Independent article says he called his girlfriend in Paris at 3.20, and expressly states that was about an hour before he called his mother at 4.30. German papers say he called his mother at around 5.30. I'm pretty sure this stacks up, but I'll double check when the UK and German changed from standard time to DST that year. --JN466 22:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Daylight Saving Time in both the UK and Germany began on 30 March in 2003. The changeover date has been synchronised since the late 90s. --JN466 23:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Citations needed

I believe we need sources for the following content:

The British inquest heard from a psychiatrist that Duggan had no history of mental illness. His mother told the court she believed he had been the victim of a recruiting technique used within the LaRouche movement known as "ego stripping," in which recruits are made to doubt all their basic beliefs. A psychiatrist testified that a severe stress reaction can be caused by a rapid change in a person's belief system.

I can't find it in the sources indicated. The sources probably got displaced somewhere along the line. --JN466 22:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Statements by Sebastian Drochon

We should definitely add the statements made by Sebastian Drochon, another person staying with Duggan in the house, as to what happened that night, plus the fact that he called Duggan's girlfriend that night to ask whether she had heard from him. Sources:

• http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-lost-boy-537274.html
• http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/16/16074/1.html --JN466 22:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Done. SlimVirgin 23:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

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