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July 28, 2006 -- The first line says Stossel is a "journalist" for ABC, but that title normally denotes some level of objectivity. While he may have been more of a standard correspondent early in his career, I think it would be more fair to call him a "journalist/activist" or "reporter/activist" or something to that effect.
IS he jewish? if so I think it should be added to his page! -------- 16th March, 2006
it can be added, but why is it in the first line of his biography? when I think of John Stossel, I don't think immediately of his Jewish religion. --69.113.38.124 13:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC) Is there a reason why the Dr. D entry states the settlement amount was never released but the Stossel page says an exact amount?
Also: Who is "Dan Schneider" and why do we care about a post he made to a hackwriters mailing list about John Stossel?
- Was John a stutterer? If so, how did he overcome his speech impediment?
Yes. He overcame it by attending an intensive, three week program that retrained him to pronounce troublesome words. This information can be found in his book, Give Me A Break. MafiaCapo 17:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Add criticism for balance
If there is any substantive criticism of Stossel out there, we may want to add something about it for balance. -- 22nd February, 2006
Currently, the External links section contains two independent sources that are critical of Stossel's reporting but none that are neutral or supportive. The Schneider piece fails to provide evidence for some of its criticisms. For example, it does not address the main tenet of Stossel's program Greed--that it frequently motivates people to serve each other through trade and innovation. The other links are to Stossel or ABC pages. -- 22nd March, 2006
I Agree that there needs to be criticism added to this page. After reading articles like You Call That Art it is obvious that there is going to be people who disagree with his views. External links are not showing all sides of this story. -- 30th May, 2006
www.fair.org has a ton of stuff on Stossel that is both critical and supported by source material. His methodology is often flawed (http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh011706.shtml), therefore agreeing with his preconceived notions that private enterprise is always better than public works. Also, to not at least include some of the controversy surrounding his work is a key point that is missing.
- What that dailyhowler article conveniently leaves out is that Stossel said at the beginning of the segment that Belgian students outperform American students on international tests. It is well-known that American students do poorly on the international tests. The rest of Stossel's segment is used to make the point TV-friendly. JHP 07:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's irrelevant (or non-NPOV) to identify the political affiliations of the critic-sites. "Progressives" tend to oppose libertarians like Stossel in principle, and their criticism reflects this. The http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/06/18.html#a8765 link is a fairly savage attack that calls Stossel a pathological liar. That's not a balanced criticism.
- Agreed. Misplaced Pages has a reliable sources standard that most of these critic sites don't meet. JHP 07:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Consistency
In my experience, the external links in Wiki articles related to people tend to list the people's own websites or work first yet I notice that the external links here that are critical of Stossel come before the links to his own work.
If you have a problem with Stossel thats fine but at least afford the man respect for his own work and list his link first like what is done on most Wiki pages. I see bias in the article.
edit: There. I did it myself. If anybody has a problem, I'll hear them out.
Snark
Down to earth/uninformed style?
Jonabbey 14:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Suggested Edits, July 2006
A bit new to Misplaced Pages editing, so didn't first put a summary of suggested additions when I added the "Criticisms of Stossel's Reporting" heading and accompanying 5 paragraphs of text. Hope no feathers ruffled, change all you want, of course, no offense intended.
Also, deleted a bit of text in my edit from circa 7/11: took out a phrase about Stossel's "down-to-earth style" from "Books" since I felt it threatened NPOV (Neutral Point of View). Again, hope no feathers ruffled, change it back if you like.
Suggested further edit, to be implemented circa 7/22/06 if no objections:
1)This entry already a bit long. Subtract all but 5 or 6 of the "Give Me a Break" segment titles, the paragraph under "Criticisms" beginning "In June of 2001" in the interests of brevity. DONE 7/24
2) Make new para. under "Criticisms" briefly discussing Stossel's pro-free-market stance as it relates to critiques that have been made of his reporting. Move the bit of text under "Legalize organ selling" into this paragraph and do away with that heading. 7/25 NOTE: REVISION ALREADY DONE (ADDITION OF "LIBERTARIAN VIEWS" MAKES THIS LARGELY IRRELEVANT.
3) Add new heading, "Stossel in the Classroom," to discuss controversial instructional materials for public schools put out by Stossel. For sample units, see under "guides and worksheets" at http://www.intheclassroom.org/students/index.php. DONE 7/28--FORGOT TO LOG IN LIKE AN IDIOT, BUT THOSE TWO PARAGRAPHS PUT IN 5 MINUTES AGO ARE MINE Dicksonlaprade 17:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Let me know of suggestions or objections.
Dicksonlaprade 20:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Update: schedule busy. will complete suggested edits, hopefully, later this week.129.15.127.254 19:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
"The latter petition was the product of the George C. Marshall Institute, which is affiliated with a number of corporate-funded, far-right organizations known for global warming denialism" The wording far-right is a point of view.--Soliscjw 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. Changed "far-right" to "conservative." Good catch. Dicksonlaprade 20:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
While reading further I found another item in the same sentence I am not sure that is why I did not change it my self "global warming denialism" I think the word denialism should be changed to some thing like "groups who question humans role in global warming."--Soliscjw 23:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's tricky. The scientific consensus is overwhelmingly on the side of human industrial activity being a primary cause of global warming, which makes it even trickier. This is why I used "denialism." "Global warming skepticism" is problematic for the opposite reason, since "skepticism" has a positive cast. "Global warming contrarianism" works (e.g., science journalist Chris Mooney uses it), but is an unfamiliar word choice. Your suggestion--"groups who question the human role in global warming"--works, too, but it doesn't get across the fact that such groups are (1) often funded by the fossil fuels industry (see, e.g., the entries for the Cato Institue and the Competitive Enterprise Institute in Exxonsecrets.org, MediaTransparency.org, and SourceWatch.org) and (2) at odds with the vast majority of scientists on the question of what causes global warming.
- Any changes someone can suggest that deal with these difficult issues are welcome. 129.15.127.254 17:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I am not saying that I dissagree with the statement just saying that the term "denialism" is pointed and implying a negitive point of view of the group. This is why I did not change it on the page since this is such a highly charged topic.--Soliscjw 01:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's tricky. I definitely see your point about it being a bit of a pointed word choice. Dicksonlaprade 16:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
It has been changed it is better, but I think the word skepticism does not work well in the sentence.--Soliscjw 22:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Slapped twice?
This video, although it's short, seems to indicate only one slap: http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/irishkorean/stossel.gif
- I've seen a longer length video which definitely shows him getting hit twice. He gets up after the one shown in that .gif file and the wrestler knocks him down again. That
schmuckwrestler was fired (I don't know if charges were filed) and apparently has drifted into (hopefully ignominous) obscurity. I like to think of him having to earn a living relegated to bouncing at a bar someplace while Stossel is watched by millions every week on national TV. Lawyer2b 23:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Unnecessary (?) NPOV tag above Criticism Section
On July 26th, Soliscjw added an NPOV tag right above the "Criticisms" Section so that there would be a note that "the neutrality of this section is disputed." I'm not sure that this tag is really necessary. Two word choices in the original "Criticisms" section were considered problematic by Soliscjw and others: one was the use of "right-wing," which I replaced with "conservative," and one was the phrase "global warming denialism," which someone else replaced with the phrase "global warming skepticism."
Both Soliscjw and I would like a better replacement for the last-mentioned phrase, but I don't think that that, by itself, warrants an NPOV tag. Unless there are other issues people want to to discuss in this section, I vote we remove the tag on or about August 13. Dicksonlaprade 17:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC) I will take it down there were a few thing that I thought were and they have been fixed (at least as far as pov)--Soliscjw 02:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC) Cool. Thanks! Dicksonlaprade 16:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Was there some thing wrong with the section early career?
It has been removed I do not know if there was a reason behind it or is it the work of a vandle. I did not want to revert the section if there was a valad reason behind removing it.--Soliscjw 03:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- I reverted it as soon as I saw it because, in my opinion, to remove something like that without so much as an edit summary indicates such poor editing or, more likely, outright vandalism, that the appropriate reaction is "revert first, ask questions later." Lawyer2b 18:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I thought it was vandalism but wanted to make sure and wanted to "assume good faith" just in the slight chance it was not--Soliscjw 19:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Inappropriate deletion of "criticisms" section
For no apparent reason, the ENTIRE three-paragraph "Criticisms" section has been removed and replaced with this: "Since the late 1990s, Stossel's journalism has become increasingly criticized by groups like Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting and Media Matters for America for alleged innaccuracies and misrepresentation. Stossel himself states that there were no intentional innaccuracies and believes that his political views have drawn the ire and aggression of the 'liberal left'. It should be noted that the attacks on Stossel coincided with his political shift from liberalism to libertarianism. "
If you remove three paragraphs of material which is supported by over twenty citations without so much as a how-do-you-do on the discussions page and replace it with a vapid paragraph which provides no information whatsoever on criticisms of John Stossel--a paragraph which, moreover, is not even supported by a single citation--then perhaps Misplaced Pages is not the right forum for you. I am, of course, reinstating the inappropriately deleted material today. I have no problem with people updating or tidying up this material (as many have done already), of course, but I see no plausible reason to Stalinize the "Criticisms" section to make Stossel appear to be a put-upon saint when the truth is actually much more complex. I trust that this will not result in an idiotic edit war. Dicksonlaprade 19:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Done. There is a strange problem with the last paragraph of this section which wants fixing, but I am going to leave this section alone for at least a week. If someone else would like to fix the problem without deleting everything in sight, please feel free. Dicksonlaprade 19:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- The criticism section should stay since Stossel does have critics who make good points. I have added a sentence at the end of the first paragraph pointing out the politically-oriented nature of many of his critics. It is telling that the criticism section is the longest section of the article: The Stossel-haters are out in force. JHP 17:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Libertarianism
The libertarianism section is quite bad and looks as if it was written to intentionally portray Stossel in a negative light. Libertarians believe in personal liberty and the free market, but you would never guess that from the way the article is phrased.
Also, the article sometimes confuses the terms conservative and libertarian. Many of his left-wing detractors call Stossel conservative because they only recognize two political ideologies, but they label him incorrectly. In his second book, Stossel quite clearly states that he is NOT a conservative. JHP 03:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Suggested sources
- Laissez-Faire TV, A balanced article about John Stossel from Brill's Content.
Character assasination
About half the sources cited in this article fail to meet Misplaced Pages's reliable sources guideline. Partisan sources are generally fair in the criticism section, because they are indeed Stossel critics, but they are being used throughout the article to do a hatchet job on Stossel. JHP 08:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is a list of sources being used which identify themselves as progressive organizations or conservative watchdogs:
- Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (progressive organization)
- Media Matters (progressive organization)
- Media Transparency (conservative watchdog)
- Common Dreams (progressive organization)
Here is a list of sources that obviously don't meet the WP:RS guideline even if you ignore partisanship:
- JHP, I believe you're misreading WP:RS. You're right that crooksandliar.com is probably not appropriate for a factual reference on the validity of a claim, but it's perfectly fine for an opinion piece. WP:RS says "When reporting facts, Misplaced Pages articles should cite sources" (emphasis mine) and "When reporting that an opinion is held by a particular individual or group, the best citation will be to a direct quote, citing the source of the quote in full after the sentence, using a Harvard reference, a footnote, or an embedded link. See WP:CITE for more details. If there is text, audio, or video available of someone expressing the opinion directly, you may include or transcribe an excerpt, which is allowed under fair use" (again, emphasis mine). Note that we're not arguing over the validity of the criticism, merely documenting what the critics say. Crooksandliars.com is a good example, because they have commentary and often host unabridged videos of the subjects they critique. It's my opinion that such references are acceptable per WP:RS. Wyatt Riot 11:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have no problem with the actual video on crooksandliars.com. I intentionally kept the link to their video in the external links section (but removed the broken link earlier in the article because it was broken). If the same video(s) appear on YouTube, however, that would be a more appropriate source because sending readers to a site named "crooks and liars" is an underhanded way of portraying Stossel in the worst possible light.
- My general complaint, however, is not that partisan sources are used. It is the overwhelming use of partisan sources in an intentional attempt to violate WP:NPOV. This article was (and still is) a character assasination, not a scholarly reference. The overwhelming use of partisan sources (without disclosing that they are partisan) conveys the idea that this article is an accurate portrayal, when in fact it is largely a personal attack. JHP 15:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- When simply documenting something that Stossel said, I do agree that a site like YouTube is preferable. But I whole-heartedly disagree about your other point. There is a great amount of criticism of Stossel's journalism and editorials, which absolutely must be cited, just as criticism of Noam Chomsky must be cited. If this article gets large enough, it can even be forked into a "Criticism of John Stossel" article just as there is a Criticism of Noam Chomsky article. Wyatt Riot 23:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)