Talk:Saint Patrick - Misplaced Pages

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Battle for the Body of Saint Patrick was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 November 2017 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Saint Patrick. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2018

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Please change "though identified in one tradition as Glannoventa, modern Ravenglass in Cumbria, in what is now England; claims have been advanced for locations in both present-day Scotland and Wales" to "which has been speculated to be in Wales, Scotland or even England."

Reason- 2 sources: 1 broken link as source + 1 weak source. There are many other more credible sources naming Scotland or Wales as the birthplace. Giving more credance to Saint Patrick being born in England than the other places is deceptive, as his birthplace is unknown, but more generally accepted to be Scotland or Wales (which is discussed in previous sources used in the article). 2A02:C7D:6449:FB00:5091:E279:9CBE:F57C (talk) 17:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Spintendo 07:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

We know he was born in Nemthur and we are told that was in Strathclyde which has long been known to be Old Kilpatrick. This has recently been identified as Roman Nemeton which confirms he was born in Scotland: http://roman-britain.co.uk/nemthur.htm . There is no real evidence for any other location. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.73.95 (talk) 17:13, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I have reset this flag and request as none of my points have been answered. There is still no reference giving any credibility to Ravenglass and this is particularly galling when there are plenty of references from the lives of the saint telling us he was born in Strathclyde. Also "Banna venta" is not the original text. This has been changed to try to make it fit Clanoventa or Glannibanta which this site doesn't even locate in Ravenglass . In short, Strathclyde is the only credible location given the historic information backing it up and you certainly can't legitimately put in Ravenglass without a citation to back it up.

I have been trying to find where this statement which is currently in the page regarding his birth originates: "one tradition as Glannoventa, modern Ravenglass in Cumbria". I cannot find any source at all. Without any credible source it should be removed.

Likewise Banwen in Wales is not credible. It originates as a story given to an 8 year by their grandfather . Do I need to point out that this is not a reliable source? The source of their grandfathers tall story appears to be Bury 1905 where it says: "The existence of three places named Banwen (which may represent Bannauenta) in Glamorganshire opens a prospect that the solution may possibly lie there."

And similarly the idea that the site was in Northamptonshire appears to originate from 1899 when “Professor Haverfield, writing in the Victoria County History, expressed the opinion that this place could be none other than the Benaventa of the Antonine Itinerary, adding the interesting statement that it was possibly the birthplace of Ireland's Patron Saint … Haverfield, **while not attaching too much importance to this coincidence**, evidently regarded it as worthy of consideration” (BOROUGH HILL (DAVENTRY) AND ITS HISTORY by William Edgar. 1923 Again, this is idle speculation with no historical evidence.

In contrast, this source: gives a detailed explanation for why the site is Old Kilpatrick and there is no question that Strathclyde is the historic location as this reference explains:

“four of the five perfect lives explicitly state that Saint Patrick was born in Britain; three of them add, in the district of Strathclyde! It is hard to imagine how any one could be so audacious as to reject such a weight of ancient testimonies," (Turner 1872 p.274)

Likewise this location also states Old Kilpatrick and the Statistical account said the same (reference not to hand)

As such I suggest the following (apologise for formatting): From "from Banna Venta Berniae, a location otherwise unknown, though identified in one tradition as Glannoventa, modern Ravenglass in Cumbria, in what is now England; claims have been advanced for locations in both present-day Scotland and Wales."

TO: St.Patrick in his confession tells us his Grandfather's home was Bannavem Taberniae a location that is unknown. However a note to Fiacc's hymn tells us he was born in Irish Nemthur: "Genair Patraic i Nemthur" or Latin Nemturri: "Natus est Patricius Nemturri" which it says was in Strathclyde (ref: turner )

Most sources therefore locate the birthplace of Saint Patrick in the region of Strathclyde “four of the five perfect lives explicitly state that Saint Patrick was born in Britain; three of them add, in the district of Strathclyde! It is hard to imagine how any one could be so audacious as to reject such a weight of ancient testimonies," (Turner 1872 p.274) and many specifically say in Old Kilpatrick . However suggestions have been given for a variety of places such as Banwen & Ravenglass.

I have just found an excellent discussion on the subject of his birth in Byrne, F. J., and Pádraig Francis. “Two Lives of Saint Patrick: ‘Vita Secunda’ and ‘Vita Quarta.’” The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, vol. 124, 1994, pp. 5–117. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/25509063. On Page 20 it gives the translation of two of the lives of St.Patrick where it tells us that St.Patrick was born in Strathclyde at a place called Nemthor. This is discussed on page 68-72 where rather than "Bannavem Terberniae" it gives "Campus Taburniae" which it translates as "the plain of tents". It also mentions "Medionemeton" as per this site: . This doesn't fundamentally change my suggested revision. The only site with historical evidence to back it up is "nemthur", or variants: "nemthor", "nemtor" in Strathclyde, with Old Kilpatrick being the most likely place. The rest are speculation with a wide range of sites with nothing much more than glancing similarity of name to support them. However, it would be worth adding “Two Lives of Saint Patrick: ‘Vita Secunda’ and ‘Vita Quarta.’” as a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.73.95 (talk) 10:07, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

As I said before (below), the medieval lives are worthless as history, and no reputable scholar uses them as a source for anything other than literary traditions any more. "Nemthor" is therefore not "The only site with historical evidence to back it up", because it appears only in un-historical sources. It may or may not refer to Strathclyde, but there is nothing reliably historical to connect Patrick to it. The only place he mentions in his own writings is "Bannavem Taburniae", so that is the only place that has historical evidence to back it up. Unfortunately, we don't know where it was. There have been many suggestions made, none of them conclusive, but the internal evidence of the texts speaks against it being in Strathclyde. That is an old theory that has long since been abandoned by all historians of the period. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Every document we have is a later copy, so you're talking nonsense. Whatever your personal POV, there is clear and unequivocal evidence that the early lives located his birth in Strathclyde this MUST be in the article. In contrast, there's no historical evidence at all AND NOT EVEN A CITATION for the locations currently given. So, you're clearly pushing a POV. Stop POV pushing and just get on with the change.

"Stop POV pushing and just get on with the change." Who, precisely, do you think you are? Presumption of good faith is hereby withdrawn. You are here only to disrupt and abuse, and I will no longer engage with you. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:34, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Strangely enough I was just talking to the Falkirk county archaeologist and when I said "modern scholars dismiss Strathclyde" his comment was "I thought it was the reverse". It is simply a fact that Strathclyde is reported as the place of his birth, and it's a fact that no citation or evidence has been given for the site that is currently in the article. I suggest you START behaving with good faith and stop pushing your own POV.

No. We cannot make such a definitive statement on something which is not definitively known, especially not based on outdated scholarship. What Turner wrote in 1872 is not the last word on the subject, no matter how emphatic he is on the subject. Read some more recent sources, especially those with the benefit of more than a century's worth of archaeology. Modern historians do not accept anything but Patrick's own writings as valid historical sources - Fiacc's Hymn and the various Irish and Latin Lives are legendary traditions, not history. What we have to go on is the corrupt placename "Bannavem Taburniae", and Patrick's statements that his father was a decurion and owned a villa, and the fact that he was kidnapped there by seaborne raiders from Ireland. It is massively unlikely that this was in Strathclyde, as Strathclyde was not Romanised enough to have villas and decurions. The most likely location is in a lowland, civilian area - perhaps somewhere in the West Country (sources I have readily to hand: K. R. Dark, "St Patrick's uillula' and the fifth-century occupation of Romano-British villas", in David Dumville (ed), St Patrick, AD 493-1993, The Boydell Press, 1993, pp. 19-24; E. A. Thompson, Who Was Saint Patrick, The Boydell Press, 1985, pp. 9-10). The article should continue to reflect the uncertainty of our knowledge on the subject. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry your are just wrong. Your argument is that Turner is wrong - but in the same way the people you now cite can be wrong. The historical evidence, which is all we really have, clearly says Patrick was born in Strathclyde and no matter how many modern academics you claim disagree, you cannot change the fact that the early sources say he was born in Strathclyde and so that must be in the article.

I have supplied numerous good references to back up the change, You have supplied none to back up the current places in the text, which doesn't even mention the only historical evidence we are given which is for Strathclyde. As for the absurd statement about Strathclyde not being Roman enough, there is plenty of coin evidence showing a Romanised population right up to the time on Patrick and why on earth wouldn't Roman Christians flee the various persecutions? And if you can tell me what the a Latin scribe would call an Iron-age home other than using a Latin term, I will accept that the location must be in a Latin speaking area. But you cannot give me the term someone in Strathclyde would use. As such using a Latin word in a Latin text as a clear TRANSLATION of the local term, in no way proves the local language was Latin. Also we are told Patrick had his words translated INTO Latin. So you can't have it both ways - claiming Latin terms/names proves he was born in a Latin speaking area, when we are told his words had to be translated into Latin so he wasn't a natural Latin speaking (therefore likely born outside the normal Roman areas). PLEASE STOP POV PUSHING!! Change the text to include the historical references to Strathclyde and provide citations for any other places (if you can find any). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.73.95 (talk) 10:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Not done: Per WP:EDITREQ#General considerations, requests can only be completed for uncontroversial improvements (which this is clearly not) or when a clear consensus already exists on the talk page (which I do not see). Please continue civil discussion on the talk page as needed to reach consensus, and seek dispute resolution if necessary. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:34, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure whether you changed the flag to close this request, but as you say "Not done" it suggests to me that you accept the subject is still open. Unfortunately, there has been no attempt at a civil discussion as you put it. I made what I thought was a perfectly reasonable request - which like all such things could be improved through discussion - but I got a very blunt "NO" in response, with no attempt to discuss the points I raise. AND It's particularly annoying that despite looking I cannot find any reference to support Ravenglas and the more I look the less credible it looks (as both the Roman name and the name in the Patrick texts have BOTH been changed to make them look similar to each other). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.73.95 (talk) 12:28, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I did close the edit request template and have done so again. Per the guideline I cited previously, this cannot be completed as an edit request. If you feel you need to continue the discussion but aren't getting anywhere on the talk page, then you need to pursue other avenues of dispute resolution. An edit request will not be completed in the absence of clear consensus of editors on the talk page, and this is not the way to get other editors involved to reach such a consensus. (See WP:DRN, WP:3O, WP:RFC etc for that.) ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:44, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

OK apologies for re-opening. I made a simple suggestion for an edit backed with plenty of evidence to back it up. As you will see I got a very pointed "NO" - which clearly indicated they were not even a hint they were prepared to change in any way. As it currently only gives one site any prominence - and even my comments re the lack of citation to back this up were rejected, it seems very likely the individual was pushing a POV. As I've said, I've been looking at the places, and apart from Ravenglass (where I can't find who is suggesting it), the only place with historic evidence to back it up is in Strathclyde. However, if as you suggest it takes a discussion and as that was stamped on from the very beginning, it does appear the only option is some kind of dispute resolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.73.95 (talk) 11:14, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I have finally (after literally hours of searching) found a text supporting - not the Ravenglass in the text, but "Glannoventa". The reference is "Christianity in Roman Britain to AD 500, Part 500" (already referenced). But, as I've been saying, this also mentions Nemthur and Strathclyde. Fortunately, I've also found a good basic summary on the Welsh Government site (which obvious favours Wales). This reads: "There has been much debate on the exact birthplace of Saint Patrick. Some say that he was born in the south of Scotland, others claim that he was born in Banwen in the Dulais Valley. But most experts believe he was born in Ravenglass, Cumbria, where his father was a deacon during Roman Britain." . This seems a good place to start, so I suggest amending the text as follows: There has been much debate on the exact birthplace of Saint Patrick. Most of the early biographies of the Saint, say he was born in "Nemthur" located near Dumbarton Rock, in Scotland. Other sites have been suggested based on a similarity of names to Patrick's Grandfather's estate at "Banna Venta Bernaie". Thus claims have been made for Banwen, Wales, but recent biographies have located his birth in the Roman Town of Glannoventa, believed to be Ravenglass, Cumbria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.73.95 (talk) 14:43, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Snakes

On the section of Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland, I think it we be relevant to talk of the similarities of this story with that of another Irish story on Goídel Glas.For instance if it was added:

Similarities in this story and another Irish myth are notable. The story of Goídel Glas, who is credited as the eponymous ancestor of the Gaels and creator of the Goidelic languages (Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Manx),appears in the 11th century pseudo-historical book Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland), In the story Goídel Glas is bitten by a snake and his life is saved by Moses placing his staff on the snakebite. As a reminder of the incident he retains a green mark that would stay with him for the rest of his life. Additionally Moses tells him that no other of his people will be bitten by a snake and he would lead his people to a land that would be free of snakes. They eventually find Ireland after forty days wandering the sea

If this was added after the line "Aaron's snake-staff prevails by consuming the other snakes" and before the next paragraph starting with the line "However, all evidence suggests that post-glacial Ireland never had snakes" i think this will give a more detail to people on the past authors of these stories fascination of merging Irish history and culture with that of the bible.

References

MacKillop, James (2005) Myths and Legends of the Celts. London. Penguin Books ISBN 9780141017945. Retrieved on 14 March 2018
Koch, John T. (2005). Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia Vol. 1 A-Celti. Oxford. ABC-Clio. ISBN 9781851094400
Macalister, Robert Alexander Stewart. (1939) Lebor gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) Volume.2. Dublin. Irish Texts Society by the Educational Co. of Ireland. Retrived from Archive.com on 14 March 2018

Sections and names; "folk piety"

The "Legends" section has a "Folk Piety" section, which seems to have nothing to do with piety and not really folklore believed by ordinary people but rather "miscellaneous pseudo-biographical stuff we found on the internet but haven't sourced back to a particular hagiography or antiquarian". Some of it repeats earlier better-sourced information If you want genuine folklore there are 487 items in the National Folklore Collection. Things like visiting St Patrick's Well are there. Dia is Muire dhuit is Pádraig and similar invocations would also constitute genuine folk piety. "Places associated with Saint Patrick" could be made another subsection of Legends.

I think "Seventh-century writings" should be renamed "Hagiographers", as it already goes beyond the seventh century; the Tripartite Life of Saint Patrick and "Saint Fiacc" could be augmented.

"Maewyn Succat" is a factoid rather than a popular myth — Internet "did you know" propagators are at least correct that it is little known. (No matches for either Maewyn or Succat in the National Folklore Collection.) How old is it? I can date Maewyn to 1924 p.413 and Maewyn Succat to 1977 p.9 (Succat is 1786 English). "Patricius Magonus Sucatus" is in Bury 1905 and "Magonus Sucatus Patricius" is in Bieler 1951. There are already two sections, "Name" and "Seventh-century writings", which contradict each other about Ultán's Magonus and Succetus; these portions should be merged and the "Maewyn Succat" factoid discussed alongside them. jnestorius 19:00, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2019

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Under "Other places named after Saint Patrick include:" add: • St Patrick's Church, Inchagoill, on Lough Corrib. A church whose construction is traditionally attributed to St Patrick and his nephew Lugnad. A 6th century stone commemorating Lugnad is also present on the ireland. Lm nash123 (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland

The line in the section "Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland" reading: "The snakes, rather, were a metaphor for the druids, who Patrick is said to have driven out of Ireland when he established Christianity there." is not as true as it appears. The scholarly merits of the source are negligible as far as I was able to discover in searching for the book and the author. The editing errors in the quote provided in the footnote seem a bit of a red flag at the very least. This sentence should at least be edited to begin "Some claim..."

101.98.243.88 (talk) 03:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

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