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User:Fram banned for 1 year by WMF office

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resysop of Fram

Fram has been unblocked. I see no community consensus that the administrative user rights of Fram should have been revoked. Can anyone think of a reason the user rights should not be restored without delay? Alternatively, restored following the standard 24 hour hold period for commentary? –xeno 20:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Fram is still technically banned from en.wp. The actual T&S ban has not been reversed yet. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 20:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Fram is unblocked. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

A block is different from a ban, and you know it. He may be unblocked, but any editing he did here would immediately be seen as a violation of the ban, and the last thing we want at this moment is for WMFOffice to escalate this. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 20:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• I know I'm not a 'crat any longer but there was nothing offered by even the near-silent WMF that suggested Fram abused the tools. The desysop wasn't under a cloud, so a technical re-sysop is just natural. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Fram is currently banned from enwiki, per the office action. If a bureaucrat were to restore the sysop flag at this point, that may well lead to a de-cratting. ~ Rob₁₃ 20:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

If you want to restore rights, the 24 hour hold is not the major issue as Fram remains office-banned. You would be acting outside of any established norms. Maxim_(talk) 20:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, Fram should be re-sysopped in 23 hours time. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) There is nothing normal about this situation. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐ 20:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Allow me to quote from Misplaced Pages:Office actions#Secondary office actions.

In extremely rare situations, the Foundation may become aware of circumstances and information regarding major breaches of trust performed by Wikimedia functionaries or other users with access to advanced tools that are not possible to be shared with the Wikimedia communities due to privacy reasons and therefore can not be handled through existing community governance mechanisms. In some of those cases the abuses reported may not rise to the level of irreversibly expelling Wikimedians from the communities; however, they may be severe enough to have breached the community’s trust in the individuals involved and therefore warrant removal of administrative rights. Removal of user rights are usually either permanent or long term. Rebuilding trust is not impossible, which is why individuals are encouraged to reflect on their actions leading up to their advanced rights removal and consider how they may best serve the communities moving forward. In situations of long term removals, and once the no-rights period has elapsed, a contributor may have to fulfill additional criteria before they are permitted to reapply for advanced rights; those are made known to them at the time of the removal of advanced rights.

Reversing an office action out of process is not something that not possible to be shared with the Wikimedia communities due to privacy reasons. And, reversal of an office action that has broad community opposition is not breach the community's trust. There is no grounds for an office decratting here. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• To the best of my knowledge Fram is currently under a WMF Ban, and access removal was an office action. So summary restoration is out of line of the bureaucrat mandate. Additionally, as the access removal was clearly not for inactivity or voluntary, an RfA should be required to ensure community support, following the prohibition period of the ban. — xaosflux 20:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  To the best of your knowledge, Fram was banned for a year yet has been unblocked. To the best of your knowledge, you have absolutely no idea why Fram was de-sysopped, so to mandate another RFA is complete nonsense. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  Blocks are technical measures that may be used to enforce bans, removal of blocks does not negate a ban. — xaosflux 20:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  Lawyering. The community have already summarily ignored an office action by reinstating Fram's editing ability. You're just lawyering ("technical"? What?) to avoid hard questions. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The 24 hour hold certainly should apply; bureaucrats should not be hasty in heated circumstances such as these. Unless the WMF re-blocks Fram or issues a new statement, I see no reason he shouldn't be re-sysoped tomorrow. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• While I agree with TRM, I understand if no crat wants to stick their hand in this fire and I dont think you can reasonably hold it against them if they stay away from this. Its also functionally a grey area in that the crats are elected by ENWP community to enact the decisions of the ENWP community in an impartial manner. Restoring rights that have been removed as part of an office action *but have no backing from the community* is clearly not something that has any real precedent here. The removal was not at arbcoms or the communities request and we generally as a community dont *want* crats to start getting creative - crats mandate is not to act on behalf of or for the WMF in any sort of dispute. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

If ever there were a situation where allowing a little time to pass might make the consensus clearer, this would be it. I myself would wait until it is clear whether the community consensus will prevail regarding the block itself. UninvitedCompany 20:23, 11 June 2019 (UC)

Agree, additionally I'd want to see a response on-wiki from Fram (which would also indicate that they are willing to violate their WMF Office ban). — xaosflux 20:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• I personally am not willing to take any bureaucrat action on Fram's account either way until the situation is resolved. Resysopping Fram is also not supported by the relevant policy, and there's no precedent to draw on. It's not for the bureaucrats to set precedent by acting unilaterally. For now, I think it's better for the situation to become clearer before acting. --Deskana (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• My sense is that this it is too soon for 'crats to be taking any action here, irrespective of the various arguments for/against re-sysopping. Let the dust settle, and give WMF a chance to respond to the recent unblocking. There's no point in discussing a resysop if there's going to be a wheel war about the unblocking. Waggie (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Both the block and the desysop were WP:OFFICE actions, so it was out-of-process to unblock, and it would be out-of-process to resysop. Why are we talking about procedural stuff like a 24 hour hold when we have so flagrantly disregarded the procedures surrounding WP:OFFICE? In the past, the Arbitration Committee has threatened to summarily desysop administrators who modify office actions, see . Any bureaucrat seeking to resysop here, 24 hours or otherwise, would put themselves at risk to losing their bureaucrat access. Mz7 (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  Well, the reason why it's being mooted is because the community has agreed that Fram should be unblocked, and has been. There was no reason given as to why he was banned in the first instance, so retention of his sysop status should be natural (as a c.f. I was blocked while retaining admin rights). Why is this any different? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  There are some technical considerations, the executive summary is that no one cares enough that blocked admins can still do some admin things to fix that leak. See my talk. –xeno 20:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  I'm sure. There has been no indication that Fram has warranted a desysop. But I'm now seeing how the game goes. He's unblocked but still "banned" which means that if he dares edit, the ban will be lengthened. He didn't abuse his tools once. Amazing. Way to go WMF. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  Office actions are explicitly outside of the control of community consensus. Procedurally, we can't overturn their action no matter what our consensus is. It's quite dictatorial, but this is what it is. Resysopping would still be reversing an office action. Mz7 (talk) 20:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Can't say I blame the 'crats for not wanting to act here. In fact it would be outside of their remit to be "activist" and re-admin Fram without a mandate to do so.

However I completely disagree with the contention that Fram needs a new RFA should they be unbanned. The local community had no say in this process, and there is no indication he has lost this community's trust to handle the tools. That is the only reason to require a new RFA. Vague handwaving at secret evidence that as far as anyone knows has nothing to do with admin tools does not make this under a cloud by any previously accepted definition. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Until WMF actually get round to telling us why they decided to desysop Fram, this is just a purely cosmetic desysop, made by a few people in California. There's no cloud. As soon as any ban expires, Fram gets to be a sysop again. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

The ban will expire in 1 year, right? -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• For every desysop of Fram there should be someone willing to re-sysop again. They're not going to desysop everyone. That would cause irreversible harm if they did that. But they'll always be those who consider their admin rights to be higher than their morals. Cassianto 21:00, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I'm with Beeblebrox on this. Fram, though he may be a bit strident and controversial at times, has not generally lost the confidence and the trust of the community as a whole. Should he be reinstated as an administrator, it would be best done without any sort of RfA or pseudo-RfA process. Of course, given the standing ban, etc., I would certainly not fault any bureaucrat for taking no action at this time; or, once action is authorized (or independent action is taken), implementing a 24-hour hold. All the same, when all's said and done, I do wonder who shall be the courageous. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Going to agree with Beeblebrox here; absent a motion or determination by Arbcom that Fram's tools should not be reinstated at the end of whatever is going on at T&S, there is no valid reason not to return the tools at the end of that time, should he request them. If Arbcom believes he no longer meets the requirements to be an admin on this project, then they need to bite that bullet themselves. We have a community desysop process - it is via Arbcom. While I would never counsel the bureaucrats on this project to deliberately rescind an OFFICE action, once that action has expired, I can't really see a reason why the tools would not be reinstated upon Fram's request as of this writing. (And given the fact that almost nobody on the T&S team or the chain of individuals who are involved in OFFICE action decisions are actually in California and in many cases aren't even in the US, I think it may be time to let go of that canard.) Risker (talk) 21:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

But "SanFranBan" rolls off the tongue so nicely... Ivanvector (/_Edits) 21:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Desysop request (BU Rob13)

BU Rob13 (t · th · c · del · cross-wiki · SUL · edit counter · pages created (xtools · sigma) · non-automated edits · BLP edits · undos · manual reverts · rollbacks · logs · rfar · spi · cci) (assign permissions)

Please remove my sysop flag. Thanks. ~ Rob₁₃ 21:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you for your service. 28bytes (talk) 21:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Would appreciate if someone could pull EFM too. ~ Rob₁₃ 21:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I’ve done that for you. –xeno 21:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

@Xeno: I'm not sure if you meant to, but you pulled extended-confirmed. MusikAnimal had already pulled EFM. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 21:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Reverted as an error, thank you for the ping. –xeno 21:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Is someone going to remove checkuser and oversight? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Currently on 24 hour hold on Meta. Mz7 (talk) 21:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the update Mz7. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Thank you for your service, BU Rob13. I hope you come back and re-join the admin corps when you are ready. Softlavender (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Desysop (Ansh666)

Hi crats, please remove my administrator rights. I'm also going to waive my right to automatic resysop - I'll run another RfA if I want to come back. The only userright I'd like is autoconfirmed. If you have any other questions, please contact me at user talk:ansh.666, as I'll be blocking this account once this edit is saved. Thanks, ansh666 21:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you for your service. 28bytes (talk) 21:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Notice: WMF desysop of Floquenbeam

Please note, the WMF Office has removed sysop access from User:Floquenbeam with the log entry: Foundation Office Action - Temporary (30 days) - assisting user under Office Action. This is mostly for our records, just as with Fram - BN is not the best venue to discuss the WMF actions. I have no way to know what will happen after 30 days (i.e. will WMF staff restore access, or will they leave it to us to deal with). I suggest a discussion at WT:ADMIN is held to determine if users that are involuntarily desysoped by office actions can be summarily restored upon their request, or if they will require a new RfA. Of course a new RfA is an available route if the requester chooses to go that way. My current read of the administrator policy says this is not a current route, as it is only available in cases of voluntary resignation or for inactivity. Best regards, — xaosflux 01:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussion on the admin policy possible options started at: Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators. — xaosflux 01:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Quoth WMFOffice: "If they wish for their admin rights to be restored, a RfA can be opened once 30 days elapse, and the community may decide on the request at that time in such or another way." (for clarity) Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 01:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@Salvidrim: thanks, I didn't see that note (but haven't searched everywhere yet). So this is "left to us", thanks for that note. — xaosflux 01:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Special:Diff/901457495 - diff for our notes. — xaosflux 01:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: The WMFOffice account didn't add extendedconfirmed, which appears to be the standard practice when removing +sysop. Of course, there are other rights that could be granted for the 30 days as well, but those could appear as circumvention of the desysop... --DannyS712 (talk) 01:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@DannyS712: it will be auto-granted on Floq's next edit. We only need to do it manually if it was manually removed past the autopromotion period in the past. — xaosflux 01:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@DannyS712: I don't see any other prohibition on "lesser" access listed, and most would not be able to "interfere" with the WMF Office action. I highly suggest that if Floq want's some other flags in the mean time to use the normal WP:PERM process and let someone completely uninvolved deal with the request. — xaosflux 01:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Also note that Meta interface does not have 500/30 userrights, and you can't add/remove any user rights that does not exist on Meta (when trying to manipulate the user rights on Meta). That's why I had to grant +steward to remove researcher access on this wiki from someone in the past. — regards, Revi 01:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: although the WMF clearly has the desysop right, they've said it was temporary. For me the only meaning of that is that it should be automatically restored after 30 days. The WMF office doesn't have the right to advise on an RfA in any case. And to repeat myself, there's no need for an RfA if the desysop is temporary. It's my guess that the person who wrote the statement isn't familiar with how we work. Doug Weller talk 10:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

To me the meaning of the note is that after 30 days Floq can either (a) stand for adminship at RFA (either self-nominating or accepting someone else's nomination) or (b) be resysopped in another way; the choice is the en.wp's community. Personally I would wait for Floq to either (1) start/accept an RFA nomination or (2) ask here. If they choose (2) it would be up to the crats to determine whether to flip the bit themselves (presumably after the standard 24 hours) or ask for an RFA. If anyone else is temporarily deysopped by the WMF (over this or anoyter matter) the same options would apply to them unless specified otherwise by the WMF when blocking. Thryduulf (talk) 11:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I said it elsewhere, and I will say it again here. I think it is unavoidable that the resysopping of Fram, Floquenbeam, and, potentially, Bishonen will go to ArbCom since the policies which relate to it can be read differently, and they can even be read as contradictory. It would be advantageous to use this month and file a clarification ArbCom request (or even a full case if needed). I unfortunately do not have time to do it myself.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:52, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• "Temporary" means a suspension of the status quo followed by a reversion to the status quo ante. Thus, no extra steps necessary. ——SerialNumber54129 11:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Unblocked

I've unblocked Fram. Stand by for the next desysop. Bishonen | talk 07:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC).

Desysop (Nick)

Nick (t · th · c · del · cross-wiki · SUL · edit counter · pages created (xtools · sigma) · non-automated edits · BLP edits · undos · manual reverts · rollbacks · logs · rfar · spi · cci) (assign permissions)

If you could remove my sysop bit please. I'll re-collect it when the Wikimedia Foundation comes to its senses and properly deals with the Fram block, the Floquenbeam desysop and the inevitable Bishonen desysop. I'm not all that busy/useful anyway, and don't have the time to really get involved in challenging the WMF at this time in the way Floq, Bish and others have. Nick (talk) 07:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@Nick: Why not hang on to it long enough to unblock Fram if the WMF undoes Bishonen's unblock? Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

No need, Ken; it turns out handing back the tools amounts to the same thing. I'm only now realizing that unblocking Fram is a mere gesture (doesn't mean I regret making that gesture), and makes no difference to his ability to edit. See explanations on User talk:Fram: he remains banned, and will presumably be hit even more harshly if he does edit, even once. Bishonen | talk 09:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC).

Bish - It's true that Fram remains banned and that they should not, under any circumstance, edit here at this time. However, there is more than a "mere gesture" here. Each unblock requires the office to 1) re-block Fram, 2) de-sysop the unblocking admin, and thus 3) further inflame the situation. If you hand in your tools with a "I resign because of the conduct of the WMF" comment, the WMF can simply ignore it all until it blows over. It makes no difference to Fram, perhaps, but it makes a difference to 1) us and 2) the WMF, who is forced off the sidelines. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

It is a novel argument that it is the WMF inflaming the situation when an admin acts in blatant violation of the Terms of Use they agree to when they edit this site. ~ Rob₁₃ 13:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done. Let me know when you want it back. Primefac (talk) 10:53, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Resysop request (Floq)

WMFOffice's statement yesterday said "On these grounds, we will not hesitate to take further appropriate actions should such abuse occur again. The same applies for any attempts made by Floquenbeam to evade the sanctions announced against them today or by attempts by others to override that sanction." Since the only sanction announced against me was a temporary desysop, I was at first confused about how I could evade this sanction, and I just assumed it was part of the overall pattern of them not thinking things through. But then I thought perhaps they were threatening me with a siteban if I even asked for a resysop before the 30 days are up. I suppose that would be kind of evading the sanction. Since further action on their part just because I ask for a resysop would be 100% clear indication that they're just acting like Those Who Must Always Be Obeyed Especially When They Realize They're Wrong, I thought I would test that theory out. Seems like their response to this would be useful information for other admins deciding whether to just watch things unfold, or actively resist ceding day-to-day control of this site to them. So @WMFOffice:, and crats, I'm officially requesting a resysop today. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I did try not to just sit on the sidelines; and there was nothing amusing about it either—I still can't transclude  ;) ——SerialNumber54129 13:41, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• Or, they're simply referring to any bureaucrat that actually resysops you and helps you evade the sanction, and you've taken the "Path-of-Most-Grandstanding". ~ Rob₁₃ 13:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Unless I'm on double secret probation, and there are other sanctions which I haven't been told about, which I suppose is actually a possibility here
2. Be very clear: they singled out Fram, and not one of 5 dozen other rude people. Ignoring other unprovable theories, this is because he is a thorn in their side for opposing a lot of their technical decisions. Opposing Fram's ban is not supporting incivility or abuse; it is recognizing that this is, literally, a fundamental abuse of power on their part. Sitting on the sidelines and leaving barnstars is not enough.

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