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Jamia Tur Rasheed, Karachi

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Jamia Tur Rasheed, Karachi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Currently only a single primary source. Searches did not turn up enough in-depth coverage to show it passes WP:GNG. Onel5969 14:08, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Jamiatur Rasheed is among the major Deobandi "higher religious education" seminaries in Pakistan. There is plethora of coverage offline (in Urdu) about it. This is my major field of work, and I admit this seminary is a notable one. I'd be working on updating the article soon. ─ The Aafī on Mobile 16:23, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Jamia Tur Rasheed, Karachi is a major university established in 1977 for higher religious education. Added 2 new references to the article including a newspaper and a Government of Sindh website. Ngrewal1 (talk) 17:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep per Aafi & Ngrewal1. - Owais 09:13, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment none of the additional sources are in-depth. The government source is a simple mention, the news article is not about the institute, but about a meeting which occurred there, and the third source is primary. Onel5969 12:29, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
This above article right now is barely a total of line and a half. Thousands and thousands of Misplaced Pages articles are accepted and exist in that condition, where the editors are given opportunities to expand and improve them. That's no basis for asking for outright AfD deletion? Give people a chance to improve it since it's a major university in Karachi. I am sure the expanded article can look a lot better with more in-depth content and references. Added the category 'Pakistan-university-stub' today.Ngrewal1 (talk) 18:14, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep No indication whether any searching in Urdu was undertaken as part of a BEFORE process. Notable university/madrassa, frequent mentions in English language press, in-depth discussion in Urdu. "Some notable madrasas, including Jamia Tur Rasheed Karachi"

References

  1. "Despite constraints, madrasas encouraging their students to receive modern education". www.thenews.com.pk. 8 February 2021.
  2. "Deobandi clerics meet to avoid Tablighi Jamaat's crisis". www.thenews.com.pk. 18 January 2019.
  3. "Karachi madrassa found to have 50% students with depression: study | SAMAA". Samaa TV. 25 January 2019.
  4. "Food industry: Legislation on halal products' certification, standardisation stressed". The Express Tribune. 26 October 2013.
  5. "Jamia tur Rasheed students visit to Pakistan Mercantile Exchange - PMEX Karachi. | JamaPunji". jamapunji.pk. 19 December 2018.
  6. "ممتاز عالم دین اور جامعۃ الرشید کے مہتمم مفتی عبدالرحیم کا دورہ جامعہ اشرفیہ". Daily Pakistan. 9 July 2018.
  7. "فوجی ترجمان نے مدرسے کا دورہ کیوں کیا؟". Pakistan24 (in Urdu). 28 December 2019.
  8. "جامعتہ الرشید کے طلباء کا پاکستان رینجرز ہیڈکوارٹرز کا دورہ". MM NEWS URDU. 27 March 2021.
Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 05:47, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment As my !vote indicated: frequent *mentions* in English language press, in depth discussion in Urdu. I'm not sure how the articles discussing the visit of Pakistan Army Major General Asif Ghafoor to the university or the visit of 100 students to the Sindh Rangers can be characterised as "simple mentions", there's in depth discussion of the madrassa as one of the important locations of early support for the Taliban and the university leadership's more recent attempts to moderate its image via invitations of prominent Pakistani liberals, such as Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, or visible interactions with the military. An Urdu-language BEFORE would have avoided this. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 05:06, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 14:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Jamia Tur Rasheed is one of the Illustrious seminary in Pakistan. 02:32, 11 April 2021 (UTC)Ainty Painty (talk)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, jp×g 03:12, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Goldsztajn, True. As I've stated in a number of AfDs including this concerning madrasas that we must not confuse between the two. Madrasas have a different system but sadly we don't have any guideline for them like we have for schools. Jamiatur Rasheed Karachi is a degree awarding religious institute and its degree is equivalent to a double MA. (see this). Random madrasas aren't even equivalent to matriculation. Despite this, JTR has made a good news.─ The Aafī 00:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete The sources all seem to trivial and otherwise extremely run of the mill. They have to address the subject of the article directly and in-depth. Things like research papers on rates of depression in people who attend the place just don't satisfy that standard and I'm not seeing anything else that does. If someone can provide three independent in-depth sources that address the place directly I'll be happy to change my vote to keep. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:05, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment This repeats the claims made above, without addressing the *Urdu* language sources already discussed and continues to misconstrue the nature of this institution, ie it is a degree awarding higher education body. Again, I reiterate, run of the mill "schools" are not visited by Army Generals, Chief Justices or have delegations received by the Governor of Sindh. Seems necessary to spell this out... WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES c2: Most independently accredited degree-awarding institutions have enough coverage to be notable, although that coverage may not be readily available online..

References

  1. "Islamic Finance Education and the Curriculum of Deeni Madaris (Religious Seminaries)". Islamic Banking and Finance Review. 6: 59–79. 31 December 2019. doi:10.32350/ibfr.2019.06.04. some institutions like Jamia tur Rasheed, Karachi and International Islamic University, Islamabad are offering specialized degrees in Islamic commercial law
  2. "DELEGATION OF JAMIA TUR RASHEED LED BY MUFTI ABDUL RAHEEM CALLED ON GOVERNOR SINDH IMRAN ISMAIL". 14 November 2020.
Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 02:25, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Comment - WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES should not be used in AfD discussions as per a February 2017 RfC. Onel5969 02:53, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
WP:OUTCOMESBASED: Participants can refer to WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES but are expected to further explain their reasoning in discussions. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 03:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
WP:OUTCOMESBASED is an essay. Not a policy. Whereas, the conclusion of the RFC (which revolved around changing the wording in an actual policy) was clear that "WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES should be added to the Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions." --Adamant1 (talk) 08:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Um... Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions is ... an ... um .. essay. There is no policy which indicates reference to SCHOOLOUTCOMES cannot form *part of* discussions at AfD... the point is that it should not be used *solely* as justification, which nowhere in this AfD has that been the case. Having already provided RSs on this madrassa and elaborated on the contents of those sources, I've simply highlighted point 2 of the conclusions that notes that tertiary institutions can generally be assumed to be notable even where online sourcing is nto readily available. If no one had presented any sourcing here, I could understand an editor asserting that point, but that is not the case here. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
An RfC is not consensus, it is simply a *process* that may or (more generally) may not produce a consensus on a particular issue. The RfC that produced SCHOOLCOMES was about *secondary* education, it produced conclusions that included commentary on post-secondary institutions in order to differentiate the discussion around presumed notability for secondary from tertiary institutions ... and since the discussion now turns to consensus, consensus at AfD is that tertiary educational institutions are generally considered to be notable. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 21:00, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
That's not the consesus at AfD. Articles about tertiary eductional institions get deleted all the time. Also, What makes the RfC that resulted in SCHOOLOUTCOMES more of a consesus that should be listened to then the one later that decided it should not be used in AfD discussions anymore? Adamant1 (talk) 00:46, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
There's a consensus that degree-awarding, independent not-for-profit (private and public) tertiary educational institutions are presumed notable. What gets deleted "all the time" are for-profit, commercial businesses providing post-secondary educational services. There's a substantial difference. The full text of WP:UNIN is worth (re)reading (yes, well aware it is part of an essay). Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 02:26, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Acredited or not, its an Islamic seminary/madrasas. In no way they the same as a university. Which is what the guideline is talking about. Also, if its public or private makes a huge difference to notability. Private univerities (which this isn't anyway) are not treated the same at AfD or anywhere else as public ones. Adamant1 (talk) 02:59, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Today, there's nothing absolutely mutually exclusive between a seminary and a university (eg universities containing schools of religious ordination or schools of religious ordination having evolved into degree awarding institutions, ie universities). There's no reason a seminary cannot be a university, let alone considering the exact historic origins of universities. --Goldsztajn (talk) 04:24, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Sure, but that's not what I said. Also, it would be ridiculous to treat some random private Cathlic seminary the exact same as the Stanford's or Harvard's of the world. No one here does. Let alone do the guidelines. You should read up on what a Madrasa is to, because they can be "any type of educational institution." Which is what my point was. Adamant1 (talk) 05:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
We are discussing the notability of a specific religious degree-awarding tertiary educational institution, not madrassas in general. Despite repeated assertions of run-of-the-mill, not a single editor supporting delete has addressed the evidence provided that this institution holds a status that is not akin to "some random private Cathlic seminary". Regards,--Goldsztajn (talk) 07:21, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
That's a madrassa. So we can't talk about the notability of madrassas in an AfD about a madrassa? Right....It seems like your really picking and choosing here. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

But not a madrasa that teaches upto Class 8 or 10? It is equal to that of a university in our Western Educational system, i.e. degree awarding institute as the sources say, not definitely "run-of-the-mill". We've a local Madrasa here that teaches upto Persian class. That's definitely run-of-the-mill but a degree awarding madrasa isn't less than in equivalence to Darul Uloom Deoband or any other such institution. ─ The Aafī on Mobile 13:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Run off the mill is in relation to the state of the sourcing. Which is the only that matters in AfDs. Not what the place is. Not that "other stuff exists" is ever a valid AfD arguement, but how many in-depth, non-trivial (or non-run of the mill) references are in the article for Darul Uloom Deoband compared to what is avalible for this one? Adamant1 (talk) 14:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Compared to DUD, the institution "is not where the Deobandi movement began or which produced numerous Indian freedom struggle activists, or the founders of Jamia Millia Islamia and Pakistan, and it definitely isn't "155 years old", but established some 44 years ago. That said, the coverage that these type of seminaries usually get, is already what Goldsztajn has pointed out above, and majorly in Urdu language. I must bring the fact that the major hub of Deobandis in Pakistan, the Darul Uloom Karachi, where Muhammad Taqi Usmani (internationally considered an authority in Islamic finance) teaches, and Muhammad Rafi Usmani is the president "fails in what you call significant coverage" ; and that type of coverage doesn't really matter everywhere and this is why there exist subjective guidelines. Nonetheless, I was able to locate this book, The services of Islamic seminaries, by Muḥammad Anvar bin Ak̲h̲tar, where they discuss Jamiatur Rasheed as a major Deobandi institution, and also discuss their program of "Kulyatush-Sharia". I've expanded the article from a reliable journal published by the University of Karachi that discusses the seminary alone in 5 pages. And honestly, more such sources exist offline. ─ The Aafī 18:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
First of all, I'm not really concerned with what type of coverage these usually get, I'm concerned with what type of coverage this particular one does or doesn't have. Otherwise, there would be zero point in doing AfDs on any subject out there, because most subjects in general have "coverage." This isn't and AfD about the notability of seminaries (or whatever) in general though. Also, if most of the resources are majorly in the Urdu language, cool. That doesn't stop anyone from finding or providing them though, and that's all I'm asking for. Is for people who say sources exist to provide them. It could even be names of the articles, I don't really care, but it has to be more then handwaving about how "seminaries are notable in general. So whatever." Finally, it doesn't matter if notable people work there. Notability isn't inherited. Nor is it based on who works for a place. Feel free to create an article about any of those people if you think they are notable enough to warrant one though. Again, I don't really care. Which subjective guidelines cover the notability of seminaries, madrassa, or says there doesn't need to be sources for them to be notable? --Adamant1 (talk) 05:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
There are at least five Urdu sources that have been cited and linked here (or added to the article) since this AfD began; not one editor has claimed that "sources must be out there", we've added them. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 06:42, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment BTW, I find it rather uncouth that TheAafi edited the term madrassa out of the article. It seems a lot like whitewashing in order to side step the discussion about if they are inherently notable or not. I doubt they would be resorting to such tactics if this was an inherently notable topic like they say it is. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I strongly encourage you to assume good faith (as has everyone else with your contributions); per WP:HEY, there's no reason discussion at AfD cannot inform changes to an article. If you have an issue with changes to the content, the article's talk page is a far more appropriate place to take it up. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 06:29, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
What edits to the article have I made during this AfD that people are assuming good faith about? Because last I checked I haven't made any. The existence of WP:HEY doesn't mean it is OK to selectively edit words out of articles that don't help your AfD arguments. Which is what TheAafi did. Not make edits that simply "changed content" in the article. More so because there was no discussion on the talk page or here about it and the word that was deleted fundamentally changes what the article is about. Also, it was removed during an active AfD discussion about the word. There's zero about that is good faithed, appropriate, or just making "changes to the content" of the article. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Can you point out one place where I changed the word madrasa to seminary? The first sentence of the article ever since the article creation says "Islamic seminary" – now this doesn't help if I make changes to make the lede consistent with the article. FYI, the sentence was that Mufti Ludhynwi brought this madrasa to peak – and I really don't care about it because the introductory sentence says & said, it is a seminary. ─ The Aafī on Mobile 08:38, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
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