Misplaced Pages

User talk:Gavin.collins/Archive 11

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< User talk:Gavin.collins

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gavin.collins (talk | contribs) at 07:45, 1 August 2010 (→Descriptive & segmented article titles). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 07:45, 1 August 2010 by Gavin.collins (talk | contribs) (→Descriptive & segmented article titles)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Study of a Tuscan Landscape (Leonardo da Vinci ,c. 1473, on show at the exhibition 'Fra Angelico to Leonardo: Italian Renaissance drawings', British Museum)
Archives
no archives yet (create)

Wiktionary usurption request

This note exists for the purpose of providing a diff on my home wiki to submit to the following projects for usurpation of the username Gavin.collins at en.wiktionary.org.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Email me

Gavin - I'd like to have an off-wiki dialog if possible, please email me. Thanks--Mike Cline (talk) 11:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Bring your comments here, and do so knowing I am quite happy to accept any form of criticism you wish to make. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 13:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Gavin - no criticism was forthcoming, just wanted to start an off-wiki dialog. --Mike Cline (talk) 13:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I would prefer to keep our discussions here. I find the talk pages a useful reference, and I find that the ability to create links between articles and these discussions provides useful context. I presume you wish to discuss the debate at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of management consulting firms, as I can't think of any other issue that you might have a shared interest in. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 16:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Not really. as I can't think of any other issue that you might have a shared interest in- you might be surprised--Mike Cline (talk) 16:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Notability of small settlements

I saw that you contributed to the discussion at WT:N#Notability of small settlements, so you may be interested in a policy proposal I have made concerning this issue at the Village pump. Regards. Claritas (talk) 17:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for support in Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Conflicting_clauses I was undefblocked in the Russian Misplaced Pages for the source requesting. Falsificators does not like source requests becouse they can't find any good sources and wrote articles without it. They say: "source is not needed here". Administrators and referees with them in one company. X-romix (talk) 14:00, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

How I think "notability" once worked

My recall of the history of N-without-V was that there was once looser standards for requiring V. It went like this: an editor writes and article and lacks V, some editors think the article is OK, maybe an editor or two thinks the claims to N lack V, even in the strong sense "even if you look for verifiability, it ain't there" -- in the old model consensus would overruled this objection (as in "give the article some time for its content to be verified"), and in the new model the objection is sustained. patsw (talk) 00:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That sounds about right. Having read the discussion at WT:Importance, I think it gradually became the consensus that some form of evidence in the form of citations, rather than editorial opinion(s) on their own, would be used to decided whether a topic should get its own article. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:21, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I think the other factor is that even in four or so years there is a profusion of sourcing on the web, an explosion of content on google books and other places, so verifiability becomes a quicker thing to determine than previously. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Climate Change Probation

Thanks for your contribution which is very welcome. However the RFC is about the Climage Change Probation and your comment does not refer to the Climate Change Probation in any obvious way. Perhaps you might clarify this so that it is clearer to the reader? Clarifying your comment is easier now than after lots of people have signed it. Cordially --BozMo talk 10:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

What would you describe as an obvious way? What issues would you like to see addressed? Which editors have address this in a more obvious way than me, for example?--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Specifically, Climate Change articles have been put under special measures and the RFC is about the appropriateness of the special measures and whether they should be changed or kept or not. Your various comments about things going on on the CC articles do not refer as far as I can see to the influence of the measures or the measures themselves. They look like comments which could go into an RFC on Climate Change rather than an RFC on Climate Change probation. During the course of the RFC there has been a drift towards general comments but all looking at least at possible interventions. But if you want to leave them thats fine, perhaps others will work out what I missed. --BozMo talk 10:32, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I think special measures are appropriate, but frankly, I don't think your involvement is. Perhaps my views are better kept on this talk page than in the RFC. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
By all means express your view whereever you like, I certainly do not think the way I dealt with your interventions reflected in any negative way on me. But as I say, actually mentioning the special measures or the probation in your comments on the RFC might improve the appearance of relevance. --BozMo talk 10:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
In response to your request, I have added a comment in a way which is more useful. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, thats much clearer to me now anyway --BozMo talk 10:56, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Reviewer granted

You have been granted the 'reviewer' userright, allowing you to to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Misplaced Pages:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. –xeno 13:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Stand-alone lists (television)

{{rfctag}}

What should our policy be on articles that contain lists related to television? You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Stand-alone lists (television). Taric25 (talk) 23:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC) (UTC) (Using {{Please see}})

AfDs

I haven't seen you in many AfD debates lately. Is there a reason? A lot of unworthy pages are being kept. Abductive (reasoning) 06:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I am quite busy with AFD for lists at he moment. Your comments about WT:FICT have not been helpful: they sort of muddy the water, despite the fact the proposed guideline provides a lot of guidance about how to deal with non-notable topics at AFD. Maybe you could revist your comments and support the proposal? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 13:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't think anything I do can ever make a difference. Except AfDs. It's very frustrating. Could you opt-in for email? Abductive (reasoning) 09:54, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

References

You may be interested in Misplaced Pages talk:Disambiguation#References. Colonel Warden (talk) 05:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

RFC

I noticed that you participated in a previous RFC at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (events). I was wondering if you might share your opinion here: RFC: Should Misplaced Pages:Notability (criminal acts) be merged with Misplaced Pages:Notability (events) and Misplaced Pages:Notability (people)? Thanks! Location (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Elevation to OR Notice Board

Gavin, based on the tone of your last comment on the History of wolves in Yellowstone allegation of synthesis in the lead issue, it is my view that no further rationale discussion is possible between the two of us. So I have elevated the allegation to Misplaced Pages:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Is_this_Synthesis_as_alledged.3F so that other editors may assess and advise on the issue.--Mike Cline (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I did not ask you to stick your neck out for the article History of wolves in Yellowstone. Surely you can see the lede is synthesis? Just revert your edits to the article and get the hell out of there before your get yourself into deeper water. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 15:43, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Gavin, can you briefly describe the synthesis you observe? What conclusions are being reached that can't be found in the sources? Is there a particular claim or specific wording you dislike? Please specify so I can help fix the problem. You've already been asked to do this, so either respond or consider the matter closed. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Where would you like me to respond (in detail)? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
The article talk page is preferred. And if you could start a new thread that addresses the problem you see without commenting on or referring to other editors, that would be appreciated. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Very well. I will respond there in detail a little later on today. Make sure you are familiar with the sources before you make any comment, otherwise you might end up with egg on your face. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Gavin, this type of childish commentary is not helpful. If you can improve the article, please do so. If you can't, then stop harping on it. I think everyone agrees that the article can be improved, so it would be helpful for you to collaborate with Mike Cline. Looking at the lead, I think it can be greatly improved, but I don't see you contributing or helping out. Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Its not childish, in fairness. The leading paragraph is as about as far from the sources it is supposed to be originating from as it could get. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 01:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Gavin. Thanks for the apology on the talk page--I think Viriditas' comments are correct, and I have overstepped the mark. My whole hearted apologies to Mike for my outburst. Based on those comments I closed the OR noticeboard discussion as resolved. My neck feels much better. You and I have some fundamental differences re WP:NOR, WP:SYN and a number of other WP policies and guidelines. On the Original Research front, I personally don't think you understand the general consensus on the subject by which WP operates. OR is a strong allegation for any content in WP, thus it needs strong arguments when it is alleged. This is where I think you falter, you are quick to make the OR allegation, but whoefully deficient in making cogent, fact based arguments to support those allegations. Experienced editors, even those with some POV to push, enjoy a good OR discussion. But those discussions must be fact based. As a trained researcher, when I am challenged with OR, I will search for the facts and demand the same of those involved in the discussion. There may be a great many things in WP in which your OR allegations are spot on, but unless you present facts, you will continue to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding on what OR is all about.--Mike Cline (talk) 02:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The lead as it was written was comprised of 24-carat original research, and it was about as far removed from being a summary of the sources as Middlesex is distant from Yellowstone: none of the sources cited even remotely supported what was written. You can accuse me of what ever you like, but I presented verbatim quotations, so my facts were spot on. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 02:19, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Original Research of the 1st Order

Unfortunately interactions between Misplaced Pages editors can sometimes seem impersonal. We don’t often remember that other editors see the world through their eyes, not our own. To that end Gavin, I wanted to share with you what I did this fine Sunday morning. I went fishing, leaving the house early at 4AM. My destination was the Gardner River just inside the northern boundary of Yellowstone National Park. The fishing was good, but the experience was even better. As I have done many times before, I traversed the Gardner Bench—a triangular and xeric landscape bounded on the NW by the Gardner River, the NE by the Yellowstone River and the south by the gentle slopes of Mount Everts.

The confluence of the Gardner and Yellowstone Rivers, from the Bench, Sunday July 11th, 2010

My destination was the south side of confluence of these two rivers, a location etched in the history of Yellowstone, but a place that bears no mark of what occurred there on September 13th, 1869. Three men with nothing more than a few weeks supplies, some pack horses and blankets crossed the confluence and made their way across the Gardner Bench into Rescue Creek. The Cook–Folsom–Peterson Expedition had entered what would become Yellowstone National Park in but a few short years. As they crossed the Gardner River and looked south into Wonderland (a name that would eventually glorify the park in its early years), Cook, Folsom and Peterson were gazing into Terra incognita. As they left the river, if they looked back north they would have seen a skyline dominated by Electric Peak and Sepulcher Mountain, mountains that were unnamed and unexplored as they traversed the Gardner Bench. Mount Everts another unnamed and explored mountain would guide their right flank whilst the Black Canyon the Yellowstone dominated their left. They were unknowingly pathfinders for the more comprehensive Washburn expedition the following year, a group of 18 men who also crossed the Gardner Bench into Wonderland. It was as if Gardners Bench was Alice’s rabbit hole into Wonderland. In 1871, the Hayden expedition chose a better route into the interior of Wonderland and the Gardner Bench became just another landscape. The Army built a small firing range on the bench in the 1890s and while its remnants can be found tucked alongside a small hill the bench is a wild place.

Dawn on the Gardner Bench looking south into Wonderland, July 11, 2010

The Gardner Bench today has not changed much in 140 years. There are only a few games trails that traverse it. There are no signs, no markers, no memorial to the men who traversed it into Wonderland 140 years ago. It is, as the crow flies, but a half mile from the highway that brings millions of people to Yellowstone every year, but very, very few people ever traverse the Gardner Bench. Anglers have trails along the rivers and hikers take the Rescue Creek trail at the base of Mount Everts to walk into remote regions of the park, but there is little need to traverse the Gardner Bench. When I do it, as I did this morning, I do it at dawn. I do it because when I gaze south across the Gardner Bench into Wonderland, I am seeing the same thing Cook, Folsom and Peterson saw 140 years ago. It is not terra incognita today, but at dawn crossing the bench takes me back 140 years.

I thought I'd like to share this with you.--Mike Cline (talk) 20:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are getting at. The scene which you describe is most pleasant, as are the pictures, but from what I can deduce from your choice of title for this thread, I am getting the impression that you are annoyed with me. If so, don't beat around the bush, just come out and say it. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 06:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Gavin, not at all. Just wanted to share what I did last Sunday. The title was just a bit of a tease, but indeed Cook, Folsom and Peterson were involved in the best kind of Original Research 140 years ago.--Mike Cline (talk) 07:27, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Well just so you know that last Friday I went to the library to have a look at the sources you claimed were related to the lead paragraph of the article History of wolves in Yellowstone, and I was annoyed to find that there was virtually no relationship between it and the sources you cited. It would be better if that article were to be rewritten and renamed, so that it more close reflects the extensive range of published sources that are available on the subject of "Wolves in Yellowstone".
I am not entirely a guilt free person myself when it comes to original research, as one of my first edits when I first joined Misplaced Pages fell into this trap, as I have acknowledged. Just because I think myself to be familiar with a particular topic, this does not give me the right to feature my own personal views in an article. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 12:24, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

I am going quickly so I am not going to put the page in and waste time. I think there was a near miss, not an edit conflict, and one or other of us have deleted content at the talk page of WP:NOT. Si Trew (talk) 13:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC) Si Trew (talk) 13:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Simon. My editing is very clumsy, so applogies for the mishap. I think I have corrected my mistake, so I think we are in the clear. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 13:58, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Descriptive & segmented titles

I don't think that closing the discussion is in any way good ettiquette. Do you wish to discuss this matter over at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 15:35, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

That would not be a productive venue, this is not a matter of proper etiquette, but rather of proper judgment. If you take issue with my assessment of the debate I would suggest you file a complaint at WP:AN/I. --erachima talk 15:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I think it is, as I don't think you have the unilateral right to halt a discussion, either by collapsing or blanking it. I have opened a thread at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts regrading this matter. Please restore the thread in the meantime so we can resume the discussion. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 16:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
And I do not believe you have the right to make a laughingstock of WP:CON via filibuster. I've made an incident report summarizing the matter as neutrally as possible, and you are of course welcome to give your own summary. Cheers! --erachima talk 16:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
While the discussion at at Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles#Descriptive & segmented article titles is very long, I don't think the discussion can be characterised as a filibuster. The discussions include several worked examples, and cover a variety of issues. Given that the purpose stated at the onset of the discussions to move towards a form of agreed wording for the proposal, I think it fair to say that it is my intention to work towards conensus, not to block it. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • If you believe you have a new point worth discussing, or that one of your points was genuinely not responded to in those 60 pages of dialog then by all means start a new proposal. However, you should not reopen the archived discussion, because you do not have consensus to do so.
    On the larger matter of your behavior in policy discussions, if you can learn to actually listen to people who don't agree with you, and understand that the purpose of discussions on Misplaced Pages is to determine the group's tendency, which everyone is then expected to acknowledge and respect, even if they disagree with it, you can start whatever discussions you please wherever you please. --erachima talk 09:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it is that simple, because I don't see there being any alternative, as sourcing is the only way to resolve content disputes between editors with opposing opinions. It seems that segmented titles and the articles they describe are a phenomenon that exist somewhere between content forks and alternative article titles. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 22:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
While not brokenhearted over the end of the discussion, your point about there being no "Stalin and the Purges" (like Smuts and the Boer War) was well-taken, I think. It does seem pov. Not sure how to generalize about these though. Student7 (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your comment, you helped clarify some points on this issue. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

About your complaint

Hi Gavin. I've removed this because it appears you have misunderstood that you need not be informed about draft RfC/Us. Users are specifically encouraged to construct a draft RfC/U in order to allow the process to run smoothly, and purely because constructing a RfC/U can take a lot of time when two or more users are trying to certify the same dispute. If a draft RfC/U became final, it is listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct/UsersList in accordance with the rules, guidelines and traditional procedure, some of which is detailed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct and several other links therein. It is only once that RfC/U becomes final that others can comment, and it is only at that point which you need to be notified so that you can respond. (Additionally, it is only once that RfC/U becomes final that it becomes subject to minimum requirements where it needs to be certified within 48 hours.) If you have any queries, please let me know. Regards, Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It sounds rather Kafkaesque, but surely I should have been informed about the existence of User:Masem/draft, if only as a matter of courtesy? Having read the guideline, it does say that "Before asking outside opinion here, it generally helps to simply discuss the matter on the talk page first. Whatever the disagreement, the first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to the other parties involved". It seems to me that in this instance, thedispute is being fabricated first. I disagree with your interpretation: this seems to far from fair play, more like sharp practice to me.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 16:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Not at all. In the first or second link that I gave you, you are only to be notified after it has been listed "in the appropriate Candidate Pages section of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct". There are a number of reasons for this. Sometimes users will remove a lot of the content that they post originally because they feel it is no longer relevant, it is meritless or it is taking up too much space. Certifying parties don't have that luxury once the RfC/U is final because that part is pretty much 'final'; other than striking content, they will need to generally use the talk page to say anything further (though sometimes they may also create another subsection to make a further statement). Obviously with regard to the subject of the RfC/U, responding and re-responding to content that is no longer going to be in a RfC is not a productive use of wiki time. Sometimes certifiers also find that an RfC is not needed at all and then they request the draft be deleted. What matters is what is posted in the final RfC/U because that is when the dispute is being confirmed; the original drafting process is somewhat more private, and they have the right to expect that it will not be interrupted.
Once it is final and publically listed though, that's when others can respond or comment, and that is when notifying you matters so that you or others can make their views known - including if you feel that no prior dispute resolution has occurred or if another editor agrees/disagrees with that view. But remember, the minimum requirements exist to prevent abusing the system and if a final RfC/U has been based on a fabricated dispute, chances are that it will be deleted in line with those requirements. Incidentally, I've been observing how this process works and have been assisting in making it run smoothly for a few years, but if you wish to run with your interpretation based on your experience with the process, then that's up to you. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I disagree with this view. It seems to me multiple editors could be working on an RFC while the potential participants would be the last to knowing about it - this sounds like The Trial to me. I will file an official complaint at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment tomorrow. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Re: Everet v. Williams, aka "The Highway Man's case"

Are you interested in writing an article on this topic? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

You got me there: I should have remembered that one since I know I've mentioned it a couple of times here & there on Misplaced Pages. However, I don't think I have access to the resources needed to write it up. (And LQ doesn't explain what the periodical is -- "Law Quarterly"?) If I ever do find the materials I will eagerly write up the article, or hand them to someone to do so. But if someone does write it up, I'd appreciate a head's-up about it! -- llywrch (talk) 21:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I will take that to be a "no" then. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 22:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

More on segmented titles

I noticed your late statement in a currently open arbitration case. I've raised it here and asked that it be discussed, so you might be interested in following that or commenting there. Carcharoth (talk) 05:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I have responded and I hope this helps the case to progress. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 12:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Descriptive & segmented article titles

As a matter of courtesy, I am notifying you that I have revered archiving of the thread at Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles#Descriptive & segmented article titles.
I think this addtion of the archive template is unnecessary, discourteous and was carried out in underhand manner. Its unnecessary to archive discussion, even if you disagree with some of the points raised in it; there is no point to attack the discussion itself, when it is actually the arguments within it that are objectionable to you. It is discourteous to other editors who may wish to continue the discussion, and runs contrary to the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Civility. And lastly it was carried out in underhand manner, because you did not sign your name, but "hid" behind that of Erachima.
I think it fair that I can speak my mind to you on this talk page, I would ask you put aside your annoyances, and allow yourself to view things from the other of the argument as well as your own. If you can to that, it is possible to see there are two sides to a dialogue, and "archiving" a discussion is not the way of facilitating constructive dialogue. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:13, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to debate it with you. So do not try to discuss it with me. You removed the closure box from the section "Descriptive & segmented article titles" on Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles. I reinstated it at 04:38, 29 July 2010 with the comment Undid revision 375268006 by Gavin.collins see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive626#Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles debate closure). This ANI showed a clear consensus for the closure. You reverted my revert, at 10:53, 30 July 2010 Gavin.collins with the comment (Undid revision 376032570 by Philip Baird Shearer (talk) per Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive89#Erachima).

My revert was done as an administrators revert based on the ANI, Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive89#Erachima does not trump the ANI. I am going to redo the edit and put back the closing box. If you think I am out of order then do not revert it but take it back to another ANI. If the consensus among other administrators at another ANI is that my edit should be reversed then I will revert it, or not object if another administrator does so. If you revert it, I will take that as disruption of an administrative edit and I will block your account. I will not unblock you account until you agree to leave the section "Descriptive & segmented article titles" alone. -- PBS (talk) 07:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Gavin.collins/Archive 11 Add topic