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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ortolan88 (talk | contribs) at 22:26, 17 March 2003 (How come there's nothing in here about osteopathy?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

RK, as I said on your talk page, I have no viewpoint on this subject. But I am not going to let you get away with such terms as "mysterious" and "unidentifiable". That is hardly NPOV. -- Zoe

Do not lie. The subluxation is very mysterious, as it is a scientific fact that it is unidentifiable. No scientist or medical doctor has ever seen such chirpractic subluxations, ever. There is a difference between having differents points of view on a phenomenon, and lying about facts that you are uncomfortable with. Sadly, you have crossed that line. RK

Zoe, I am still willing to work with you. But what you are doing now verges on vandalism. Stop pushing this pseudoscientific religious belief as some sort of scientific fact. Your continued refusal to discuss the issue, your huge deletions, and the way you hide facts that make you uncomfortable identify you as a vandal. Is this what you want? If you think that particular facts need some context, or needs to be rewritten in a different way, then fine. Let's work together. But I won't let people push pseudoscientific and religious beliefs as facts. That is a violation of Misplaced Pages NPOV policy. RK

Wow. This is the first time I've had any particular dealings with you, RK, and I don't see why we can't work together on this. I have no intention of leaving the Misplaced Pages, but the use of the terminology that you use is hardly NPOV. Please tell me what is NPOV about "mysterious and unidentifiable." As I keep telling you, I have NO POV on this subject, but you obviously do, and it isn't letting you remain neutral. A disagreement is not vandalism, and you know it. -- Zoe

"Unidentifiable" is fine, I think, but "mysterious" is definitely not.

Whoever claimed that disagreements are vandalism? Not I. But wiping out 75% of an article at first looked a bit like vandalism! I just don't think you have yet responded to my specific points, nor to the points in the material which I added. (Material, by the way, which is agreed upon by the vast majority of medical doctors and scientists!) This subject is a scientific, historic and religious issue, but you seem to be overlooking the science, and even Palmer's own 18th century religious views. What is left? A discussion of your own theory of chiropractice. RK

I've taken it to the mailing list, where others with less of an axe to grind can see if you or I is more NPOV. -- Zoe

Subluxation is a simple term... if you guys actually looked it up in a dictionary.. its meaning is given... no doubt its used in pseudo-science variants of chiropractive medicine as well as the legitimate ones. For the rest of the article, deal with chiropractic medicine as a science and as a healing art, and leave all extra-ordinary claims for a subheader of 'pseudoscience' or non-scientific healing arts, etc...-SV

Should your changes be ported to the subluxation article, too? SCCarlson

The article as it stands is way out of line. As it stands, it's a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. It reads like chiropody is some kind of weirdo cult. We are talking about a branch of medicine that had thousands of practioners in dozens, maybe hundreds of countries around the world, that is regulated by governments to ensure profesional standards (just like dentistry, to name only one), that is taught as a five year course in outstanding universities like RMIT and the University of Sydney, that health care insuracnce funds and government medical subsidies pay out for as a matter of routine, that general practictioners refer paitents to as routine. Better to nuke the page and start afresh. Tannin 15:12 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, but what you call "way out of line" is called by the rest of us mainstream science. You obviously have littlke knowlesdge of the field or of the scientific method. Please underatand: These are not just about Palmer's bizarre religious claims (which I will amplify, because no one here seems to know anything about them) but rather, about the physical and medical claims that are being made by chiropracters. We cannot allow people to push pseudo-scientific claims and religious claims as facts. That violates our NPOV policy. I do note that your response to me ignores every one of the facts I mentioned; your argument is only that it "must" be reliable because thousands of people are involved in it. That is nonsense. If that were true, then we'd still be using leeches to treat the flu, because "thousands of doctors" do it! RK

And the original article (some paragraphs of which we still have) appears to have been take from http://www.straightchiropractic.com/language_of_straight_chiropracti.htm. Tannin is right; we have no article now. -- Toby 19:25 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

Uh, permission was explicitly given to use this information! Please don't falsely accuse me of copyright infringement. RK

I don't have a problem with including a bibliography on the dangers of chiropractic, but this bibliography is almost 20 years out of date! The newest article is from 1984. Since the bibliography is found in the link to the 1985 article, I'm removing the bibliography but would not object to listing more recent literature (e.g. after 1990). SCCarlson 19:23 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

I am reverting this deletion. This is science and medicine, not politics. Real scientific papers always quote previous works as well as current ones. Have you ever written and published a scientific paper? I have. Have you read over a hundred such papers? I have. This is how it is done. Old food goes stale; that is not necesarily true for scientific studies. RK

RK: Maybe you should stick to writing scientific papers and leave WP to other, more cooperative people. (By the way, if you remove, alter, or misinterpret this comment, I'll email Jimbo and have you banned.) Christopher Mahan

Indeed I do know very little about chiropractic, but I can tell a POV hatchet job when I see one. We are talking about a branch of medical treatment that may or may not have an interesting past, but is, in the modern world, unquestionably both reputable and common. Alas, I have no more knowledge of chiropractic than I have of dentistry, so I cannot be the one to replace this ridiculously biased entry with a better one, but I certainly hope that someone steps forward to do it. Tannin 22:33 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

Don't expect any help from me. Chiropractic medicine is in my mind as scientific as astrology. Here's another external link for you guys to look up: http://www.chirowatch.com/ -- Tim Starling 02:09 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Please RK, set forth under References at the bottom of the page the sources of each assertion. If there is significantly useful material a user could find on the subject please put it in a section called Further Reading. At the bottom of the page along with Further Reading and Reference please make a 3rd section called External Links. Fred Bauder 01:44 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Alright, I'm stopping by here from the mailing list. Here's my outlook. Chiropractic medicine has some scientific elements as well as some holistic elements to it. However, to say that it is mysterious, cultlike, or that it has no scientific backing is very NPOV. An overwhelming percentage of the population respects chiropractic medicine as being medically useful, and they believe in its efficacy. Being that there are a lot of these people, they are not in conspiracy, and are not total kooks, that opinion should be represented to counter-balance what seems to be an also widely-held belief that Chiropractic medicine is largely holistic and non-scientific. cprompt 04:55 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Cprompt, it is a scientific fact that chiropractic theory has no basis , and no proof. That is not debateable. In fact, multiple Nobel prize winners in science have pointed this out. Please don't accuse me of NPOV violations for mentioning scientific facts. I agree with you that millions of people claim that this method helps them. So what? Millions of people also claim that praying to angels or to God gives them miracle cures. The same amount of evidence exists for these claims as well. Perhaps you are confusing medical spinal maipulation with chiropractice; they are not the same thing. Chiropracters are free to make all the claims they like, but medical scientists have never found any support for them. RK

You may cite your scientific facts, and proofs. However, the article as I last read it was definately asserting that your opinion (even if it is the opinion of educated doctors and members of the medical community) is correct, and only quacks and kooks believe in it. Personally, I believe that angels and gods do not exist. However, I'll agree that the articles God and Angel is definately NPOV. The recent edits by Fred Bauder (Mar 16-17) seem to be closer to NPOV.

That's fine by me. I have no problem with you or him changing what I wrote. I state my case, you state yours, and over time the article evolves towards something better.

Your points are well taken. However, I did not mean to say that only quacks and kooks believe in it. I agree that millions of people have been led to believe that there is serious scientific basis for chiropractic theory. However, mainstream scientists hold that its adherents are mistaken; many people accuse the industry of promoting quackery. This is especially critical to note when we are dealing with a field which - up until recently - denied that germs cause disease! However, if you want to change what I wrote, please do so. I recognize this is a cooperative effort. RK

From the article NPOV:

1. An encyclopedic article should not argue that corporations are criminals, even if the author believes it to be so. It should instead present the fact that some people believe it, and what their reasons are, and then as well it should present what the other side says.

cprompt

How come there's nothing in here about osteopathy?

My impression is that both osteopathy and chiropractic are organized around spine manipulation, both started from the same roots in Andrew Still and that chiropractic went down one path (advertising: "If your spine's in line everything's fine") while osteopathy went the other (the only alternative medicine ever to get into the big tent). Crude typology to be sure, but there should be some compare and contrast in both these articles, and maybe a better article on the spine too. Ortolan88 22:26 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)