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Talk:Ashleigh Barty

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Good articlesAshleigh Barty has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: January 10, 2019. (Reviewed version).
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GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ashleigh Barty/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MWright96 (talk · contribs) 10:05, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Will take a look at the article on this tennis player. MWright96 (talk) 10:05, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Early life and background

Junior career

2010–2012: Australian Open debut at 15, top 200

2013: Team competitions

Barty's only other two tour-level singles

Doubles: Three Grand Slam finals, one WTA title

2014: Singles struggles, continued doubles success

2014–16: Hiatus from tennis, switch to cricket

2016: Return to tennis

Singles: First WTA title, world No. 17

Doubles: Fourth Grand Slam runner-up, WTA Finals berth

  • "Barty and Dellacqua reached the quarterfinals or better at three out of four Grand Slam tournaments during the year." - at three out of the four Grand Slam tournaments during 2017.
  • "They had narrowly missed qualifying for the event back in 2013" - remove "back"
  • "Individually, Barty also established a new career-high doubles ranking of No. 11 in the world towards the very end of the season." - a new career-high world doubles ranking of No. 11 towards the season's end.

Team competitions

Singles: WTA Elite Trophy, world No. 15

Doubles: First Grand Slam and Premier Mandatory titles

Playing style

Personal life

References

  • What makes Flashscore a reliable source?

That's my lot. Will put the article on hold to give you time to make the necessary changes. MWright96 (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, MWright96! I made most of the changes, and noted the issues where I disagreed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 03:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Indigenous in the lead

We have a bit of an edit war underway about including the descriptor "indigenous" in the lead. It's probably time to discuss.

Most of the activity to include it would appear to be good faith attempts by newer editors to highlight something they see as important. Well, her Aboriginality is mentioned later in the article, so we're not keeping it a secret. One edit summary used when removing it mentioned that the Evonne Cawley article doesn't mention it in the lead. A fair point, but is that just WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS?

I don't feel strongly either way. But we need to pause the edit war. Thoughts? HiLo48 (talk) 03:22, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Clear exclusion under MOS:ETHNICITY. Barty is not an activist or ethnic leader, so her ethnicity is not leadworthy. WWGB (talk) 04:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
There are probably thousands of ethnicity situations with tennis players that we never include in the lead. Shall we make sure we say that Maria Sharapova is a Siberian tennis player? Do we start making details of Eskimo tennis players if they represent Canada? That stuff gets mentioned in the personal/family section. The WTA bio doesn't find it important enough to even mention. This type of trivial addition happens all the time after a just-completed Major. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:40, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Good points people. Agree with all of that. HiLo48 (talk) 22:50, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Being an indigenous Australian is being an activist. Activism is not a choice for marginalised people. Being a leader is what she is doing - she is a leader on a world stage making an enormous contribution. It is not correct to cite the Sharapova example because Sharapova is not a person marginalised in her own country. Mrs Sussex (talk) 08:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Wow, you created a new account just to comment here. What a pity your comments are mostly rubbish. Barty is an activist? Evidence please. Barty is marginalised? Evidence please. I concur that Barty is a leader, but that is in tennis, not indigenous affairs. WWGB (talk) 09:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
This is a clear personal attack. Retract this, and apologise.--Senor Freebie (talk) 04:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Nope, and nope. WWGB (talk) 03:22, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I agree with WWGB, her ethnicity is not what has made her notable and shouldn't be included in the opening paragraph. In order to maintain an unbaised and consistant article we should refer to the guidelines MOS:ETHNICITY. Pabsoluterince (talk) 13:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Do you also agree with their conduct, in attacking the other user?--Senor Freebie (talk) 04:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Hang on a second isn't she the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia? Does that not count as making her an activist? LordStrawberries (talk) 23:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Then her being the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador should be near the end of the lead, right after her accomplishments over the last two years. Because she is a notable player, they bestowed the title on her and she accepted it very graciously. It's pretty cool but most of that info belongs in her personal section with only a mention in the lead, so I recapped the ambassador info at the end of the lead as a compromise. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:05, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is a whole bunch of garbage here that is unencyclopedic. Is it the verifiable fact that Ashleigh Barty is an Indigenous Australian? Is it noteworthy? It seems to me we have a mixed bag of things. I will tend to agree with the previous comment that identity from marginalised backgrounds is important and that you will probably not understand this (or even fight against it) if you are not from a marginalised background. This is called white privilege and there is a succinct article about this behaviour here and its consequences in Australia. For those who are best interested do your own research first then come back once you actually have an educated position not just a reaction to the word "indigenous" however problematic (read: it isn't) you think the word is in Australia. Aside from that there is the issue, given that there is no consistency in Misplaced Pages about this issue... I would strongly suggest a request for consideration of the fact is in order from people who are suitably qualified to discuss this issue without drawing from their personal emotive vocabulary that helps nothing. Misplaced Pages should be about facts, not about being "right." Unfortunately the whole process of being "right" is exactly why I don't have an account here. People push agendas that are emotive rather than factual all the time here especially on topics (they believe) are highly emotive (that aren't actually so). It's unfortunate it takes someone becoming world number one to raise the ugly issue of racism once again. --2001:8003:641C:4B00:3026:802B:7911:A98C (talk) 05:42, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
That's a bit of a scattergun attack on all sorts of issues. Not really sure what point(s) you are trying to make. A couple of things.... When editing here, it's important to assume good faith from other editors. It's impossible for you to know the racial background of other editors here. I can't quite quite discern what you mean by "Misplaced Pages should be about facts, not about being right." In fact, we really only care about what is said in reliable sources. With luck, it's both right and factual. HiLo48 (talk) 05:16, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Do not edit the ranking results until the official WTA Rankings are released

Please do not disrupt this page . Jezzy-lam (talk) 20:42, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Use of Live WTA rankings

Is there a Wikirule against using Live WTA rankings for updating the ranking of a tennis player, as implied by previous section?--185.53.197.61 (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

A[REDACTED] policy, no. Consensus and guidelines, yes. See Tennis Project Guidelines under "Player articles." This was done long ago to stop crystal ball projections from non-official websites. Player rankings do not change instantly. They only change officially at the beginning of a new week (usually on Mondays). Updating rankings before that would be inaccurate. Rankings can actually change in the interim period. If a player retires their ranking will be immediately removed and all other players rankings will move accordingly. Drug suspensions can have the same affect. Any other ranking site other than the WTA/ATP/ITF is not official, it would be an unofficial projection. Plus when people start updating before then often the number of weeks they are ranked gets all skewed up by the next person who edits who didn't realize someone updated the rankings prematurely. That is why it makes the most sense to go with the official results. It's easier for everyone. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:52, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I see the explanations given above and I'd say only one aspect: Live rankings aren't exactly crystal ball predictions, they are certain being done only after matches, not before when the winner is not known yet. The other presented aspects make some sense and may be understood, especially the aspect re the entire number of weeks with certain ranking.--185.53.197.61 (talk) 15:31, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Indigenous Australian or simply Australian?

This edit war is disgracefully racist. It smacks of white privilege and fragility. Ash identifies as Aboriginal and is acknowledged as such by the community. Her father is described as an Indigenous Australian. Cathy Freeman is described as an Indigenous Australian on her page. It is a way to convey identity which can be different to background or heritage. I have Viking heritage but I don't identify as Viking. She does not need to be recognised by white people as an activist to legitimise this descriptor. The Aboriginal community sees this edit war as blatant racism. It is one word, it is an accurate description of her identity. The people taking it out need to consider why they are so fragile and triggered by it. Sharyn4939 (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Cathy Freeman and Evonne Goolagong do not include ethnicity in the first sentence. Why should Ash Barty be any different? WWGB (talk) 01:27, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Sharyn4939 : It is not acceptable Misplaced Pages style to include a person's ethnicity in the opening sentence(s) unless this has some major significance to the person's profession, not just to their personal "identity". We don't include mention of a person's sexual orientation for the same reason. Anyone's ethnicity or sexual orientation, if they require any mention at all, is included elsewhere in an article but NOT in the opening sentence. Yahboo (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
@Yahboo: Again, why shouldn't it be on the first line? Nowhere on the page does it describe her as an Indigenous Australian. Her Nationality is described as Australian. It says her Dad is an Indigenous Australian but that she only has Indigenous heritage. Compare this to Deborah Mailman who is described as an Indigenous Australian and the second line says she is an Aboriginal Actress. Ms Dhu is described an Australian Aboriginal woman in the first line - so I am pretty sure you are making up protocols to suit here. Indigenous identity is mentioned in the first line of many - Albert Namatjira, Eddie Mabo, Harold Thomas.. and that is 2 minutes of googling. We are talking about someone's ethnic / cultural identity here - if it is appropriate to call someone Australian then it is equally appropriate to call someone Indigenous Australian. AND AGAIN - IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR NON INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO POLICE HOW INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IDENTIFY. Do you not understand what I am saying here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharyn4939 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Regardless of what any other articles may do, I am not "making up" any protocols. We normally only refer to a person's nationality in the opening sentence, not their ethnicity or any other "identity" unless this is of major notability. By your logic we should, apparently, also refer to all non-indigenous Australians as being a "White Australian" or "European Australian". Yahboo (talk) 03:04, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
@Yahboo:You don't appear to have much awareness or sensitivity of these issues. No, there is no need to refer to non Indigenous Australians as White or European because they are the dominant culture and so the label is interchangeable. There are issues behind this idea of which you are ignorant. The distinction between Aboriginal Australian and Australian is absolutely a statement of Nationality for many Indigenous people. You might not understand how the current edit war is racist, but that does not mean that it isn't. https://www.welcometocountry.org/digital-genocide-ash-bartys-race-repeatedly-removed/ Misplaced Pages has become just another platform of White Privilege where the resistance to the inclusion of one word is ridiculous. It's one word. It's an accurate word. Why are people so triggered? (Sharyn4939 (talk) 04:27, 6 September 2019 (UTC))
Per MOS:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Barty is notable for being a top tennis player. While it is undeniable that Barty is indigenous, that is not the reason for her notability. WWGB (talk) 04:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
WWGB : Nowhere on the page is she referred to as an Indigenous Australian. If you were an Aboriginal person or sensitive to the issues of Aboriginal Australia you would understand it's notability. But again, you seem to be comfortable making determinations about how Indigenous people should and shouldn't be described. I have opened a dispute over this. I have only just ventured into the world of Misplaced Pages but have learned very quickly that Aboriginal voices are not very important here and that editors have no concept of what is culturally appropriate and are not interested in hearing. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 05:30, 6 September 2019 (UTC))
What the heck are you talking about? The lead already says ""Barty is of Indigenous heritage and serves as the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia." Prose also says her father is "a Ngarigo Indigenous Australian" and her mother is "the daughter of English immigrants." Later in prose we have a quote from Barty, "I'm a very proud Indigenous woman..."
That should be more than satisfactory. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Accusing others of racism without proof and using all caps are not good practice on Misplaced Pages. Nigos (talk • Contribs) 08:27, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it matters. I think this is an acceptable edit. I would not make that edit. But I don't think it's a big deal. I would ask Sharyn4939 if it is in the interests of indigenous Australians to place that identity in the first sentence of the biography of a very accomplished Ngarigo Indigenous Australian? The alternative, which is in place now, is to call her simply an Australian. I don't think there is anything terribly offensive in simply mentioning the dominant power. That would not be "White or European". That would be "Australian". I think the term "Australian" represents the presiding government. It too could be omitted. But once again I wouldn't favor that. Omitting the term "Australian" from the first sentence of the lede is not utterly unacceptable but I don't recommend it. This is a biography of an accomplished person. If that person takes pride in their Ngarigo identity I think that identity should be prominently stated. But the first sentence of the lede is for such things as reason for notability, date of birth, and the prevailing governmental entity, which in this case is Australia. Also, I've taken the liberty of changing the section heading. WP:TALKNEW says "Keep headings neutral" Bus stop (talk) 08:17, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2019

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Suggest the re-insertion of the word "indigenous" before "Australian tennis player" in the opening line. Thebrisc (talk) 02:51, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Please establish a consensus for this change before making an edit request. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Plus that information is already in the lead where it says "Barty is of Indigenous heritage and serves as the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia." Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:42, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Amount of details on Barty's ambassadorship?

We definitely want the fact that Barty has been named National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador in working with Tennis Australia. And adding that the goal of the ambassadorship is to "promote more indigenous participation in the sport of tennis" can work into the article also. There was no source so I added one. But then to continue talking about the number of children "Tennis NT" hopes to reach and the percentage of the population that's indigenous in the NT, is a bit much imho. That is something for the source to tell us and perhaps a new Misplaced Pages article on the Tennis NT program. I removed this new addition pending discussion. Any other thoughts on this? Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the NT material is not relevant in a bio article. Tennis "clinics" like this are nothing more than "feel good" stories. WWGB (talk) 07:23, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
How in the name of God, Vishnu, Thor, the sun god Ra, Apollo, Zeus, and Allah as well as mother nature and the laws of science is a persons identity or anything to do with a persons identity an example of a feel good journalism story? This displays pure incompetence and lack of knowledge to construct an unbiased opinion that would actually listen to what Indigenous Australians are thinking. It's the type of groupthink that leads to things like indigenous protectionism in Australia. Which is the general level of incompetence that leads to open racism, racial profiling and racialisation on Misplaced Pages. --120.22.79.115 (talk) 02:53, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
Where a person calls someone incompetent it is not a personal attack, it's a sign of a persons inability under Misplaced Pages policy to properly understand the issue and form a neutral perspective. As a person who has majors at university in areas that qualify me to have a formal opinion as well as a post-graduate degree in areas that qualify me to have a stronger formal opinion I have SOME but not all of the understanding of the issue I am not a self-identified person in this case. I don't profess to understand the issue from their perspective in full. What I DO understand is that the NEUTRAL term for an Indigenous, Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander or South Sea Islander is all of the aforementioned. As a self-identified Aboriginal person Ash Barty SHOULD be identified as such in this article and any other construct is open racism. --124.181.82.220 (talk) 12:04, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
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