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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bangladesh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bangladesh on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BangladeshWikipedia:WikiProject BangladeshTemplate:WikiProject BangladeshBangladesh List This article has been rated as List-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Bangladesh To-do list: edit history watch purge Add more images to Bangladesh Liberation War and related pages Clean up Climate change in Bangladesh, it needs a lot of work Clean up History of Bangladesh after independence, it needs NPOV Improve Bangladesh back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion) Improve Bengali language back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion) Improve Bengalis and related pages Take a look at the requested articles. Make a MRT line 3 article. Extend, add an infobox and a map of New Eskaton to New Eskaton.

Khulnaiya

@Batternut Hi, the Khulnaiya words were collected from a native speaker of Khulnaiya. Sagir Ahmed Msa (talk) 09:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The article discusses the distinct languages of the Bengali–Assamese family. Bengali has many dialects, as do the others. It just is not feasible to put all the dialects in the comparison table. Besides, there is very little evidence of the notability of Khulnaiya, and your comment above rather suggests that the addition was original research, which is not allowed. Batternut (talk) 10:10, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The comparison table compares the languages which makes classifying (according to linguistics, not ethnicity or socio-politics) and studying languages easier for linguists. Sagir Ahmed Msa (talk) 14:20, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The place to write educational texts is Wikibooks. Batternut (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Rohingya

@Dlohcierekim:, @Anatoliatheo:, @Raymond3023: Why did you remove the sourced Rohingya words?

@Dlohcierekim:, @Anatoliatheo:, @Raymond3023: No answer???

Script

According to all the sources added here, the languages use Bengali script and not Eastern Nagari. So please don't revert to push this unsourced POV. Za-ari-masen (talk) 12:34, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Script

The Assamese script is used in the Hajong language. The Assamese ৰ /ɹɔ/ and ৱ /vo/ are used in this language. And Koch Rajbanshi also uses these. @Chaipau:, any suggestions in this matter? Axomiya deka (talk) 00:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The inline Ethnologue citation says Bengali and Latin script. So it should be that way. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

This is Hajong language, but this is not Bengali script.

Axomiya deka (talk) 00:26, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The source says "Bengali script" for all languages here so we should follow that. Anyway it redirects to Bengali-Assamese script which is used by all of these languages. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:46, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The script is Eastern Nagari, but neither Bengali nor Assamese alphabet. The example is ৰৗ. The consonant is not found in Bengali alphabet and the vowel is not found in Assamese alphabet. Chaipau (talk) 06:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Script names

@Za-ari-masen: the name of the script is Bengali-Assamese script in Misplaced Pages and the alphabets are different. Chaipau (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

The name of the script in[REDACTED] has been changed if that's the only reason you have. Please follow the sources and don't edit war. Za-ari-masen (talk) 23:13, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen:, please do not keep claiming Alphabets and Scripts are same. You are linking the scripts to alphabets. Furthermore, the Assamese alphabet is not at all the Bengali alphabet. This is adequately documented both in "Origin of Bengali Script" and the "Evolution of Assamese Script". So please desist from these false claims. Chaipau (talk) 23:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Please follow the sources. All the sources clearly indicate that these languages use Bengali script. Don't use the title of a[REDACTED] article as a justification to push your POV. Za-ari-masen (talk) 21:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

The name of the script has been discussed and resolved Talk:Bengali–Assamese_script/Archive_1#Requested_move_13_February_2019. Chaipau (talk) 08:24, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Chaipau, you just did exactly the thing I asked you to not to. Za-ari-masen (talk) 19:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Za-ari-masen please resolve this issue in the talk page of Bengali-Assamese script. This page is just following the convention set there. Chaipau (talk) 07:06, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Title of a[REDACTED] article (which has been tagged with numerous issues) cannot be a justification to change the content. The sources say these languages use Bengali Script. If you want to change it, bring proper sources to back your claim. That's the only convention here. You are now being stubbornly disruptive. Za-ari-masen (talk) 09:18, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Richard Keatinge, since you have just reverted my edit, can you point me any source at this talkpage that says these languages use "Bengali-Assamese script"? If not, please self-revert otherwise this would be regarded as a team-warring. Za-ari-masen (talk) 09:39, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Chaipau, bring a source that says these languages use "Bengali-Assamese script" and we can have a discussion. Otherwise, quit repeating the same thing and wasting both of our time. Za-ari-masen (talk) 19:31, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Edit Warring

User:Chaipau you are involved in persistent edit warring to prove your seemingly unsubstantiated claims. Immediately stop the edit war and build consensus with other editors here. Thank you.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

@Bhaskarbhagawati: This is clearly not edit warring and the point is definitely not unsubstantiated.

• There is a reason why there are separate articles for "scripts" and "alphabets". What should not be done in this article is use ]
• One cannot pass off "Bengali alphabet" to mean "Bengali script". The script that is used for Assamese is called "Assamese script" in Assam (Bora, Mahendra (1981). The Evolution of Assamese Script. Jorhat, Assam: Assam Sahitya Sabha.) and the script for Bengali is called Bengali script (Banerji, R D (1919). The Origin of the Bengali Script. University of Calcutta.). These are not scripts in themselves, but rather alphabets used for specific languages.
• Writers such has Brandt have pointed out that the over arching script is better called "Easter Nagari script", since the script is used in many languages in their own specific ways. For example, Meitei uses the Bengali "ro" but the Assamese "wo". Thus it uses neither the Assamese nor the Bengali alphabet but an alphabet specific for itself which is neither "Bengali" nor "Assamese".
• Brandt also asserts that the Bengali naturally asserts the script is called "Bengali" without merit.

Chaipau (talk) 17:19, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate that identity and naming are difficult in this subject. From the references presented on these pages, it seems to me that the most appropriate names are those that Chaipau presents - but I think that "Easter Nagari script" should be "Eastern Nagari script". I hope this helps. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:11, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

It's only this single source that mentions Eastern Nagari and this source is the only thing that Chaipau try to present everywhere which has already been discarded at the talk page of that article with consensus. On the other hand, there are numerous sources that call it Bengali script which is also officially accepted by Unicode standard. Za-ari-masen (talk) 09:54, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

No one is calling it Eastern Nagari. We are using the name that has been agreed upon, even though it is a misnomer. Chaipau (talk) 15:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Map

I have removed this map from the article as it's misleading and inaccurate. There is no source added in the file description. As another editor has also expressed the same concern, do not re-add the map without reaching a consensus. Za-ari-masen (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I have added the map again. I agree with the editor who inserted it. The map is based on Suniti Kumar Chatterji's four group of Magadhi Apabhramsa, and the citation clearly references it. The citation is: . Please do not remove the map. Chaipau (talk) 09:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Chaipau, the map is still misleading. Suniti Kumar Chatterji includes North Bengali (Rangpur, Dinajpur, Jalpaiguri, South Darjeeling, West Goalpara, East Purnia) and Assamese under Kamarupic dialects but the map includes parts of Nepal, Arunachal Pradesh and Nagaland as well. Za-ari-masen (talk) 09:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: Nepal has pockets of North Bengali speakers and Arunachal Pradesh and Nagaland have Nefamese and Nagamese, which are Assamese-based creoles, which are showed shaded. Thus the map gives a much fuller and accurate depiction of the Bengali-Assamese languages. Chaipau (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

You need to provide a source for the North Bengali speakers in Nepal, migrants don't count. Nefamese is a pidgin, not native to Arunachal Pradesh and according to the[REDACTED] article, its usage is already endangered, being replaced by Hindi. I won't be opposing the inclusion of the map for now and will wait and see if anybody else raises such concern in future. Za-ari-masen (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Nefamese and Nagamese are native to Arunachal Pradesh and Nagaland. These creoles were used in All India Radio broadcasts. Nefamese is endangered, but that does not mean it does not exist or did not exist. Nagamese is veritably the lingua franca in Nagaland. The portion of Nepal showed within the Bengali-Assamese language map was within the Koch kingdom, and the Bengali-Assamese speakers there are native to that place. Chaipau (talk) 10:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Word comparison

@Chaipau: The word Jol is also an Assamese word, please refer to any Assamese dictionary. The word Pani is actually of Persian origin, & was probably derived from Bengali during the colonial era when it was imposed, which also resulted in the change of the script. Just like the word for book was originally Pustok (like Dhormopustok - the 1st Bible) in Assamese but now its Kitaab (of Persian origin). Jol is also present in many Assamese words - Jolpropat (waterfall), Jolpan (snacks), Jolpoth (water channel) etc. Tizen03 (talk) 16:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tizen03: yes it is used as part of another word, but never on its own. It does not matter what the source of pani is. Chaipau (talk) 17:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, Hindu Bengalis almost strictly use jol. Had interactions with them in different parts India, some guys coming from interior villages do not even know what the hell paani is. One guy in my college (in Punjab) would ask for jol in the mess and most Punjabis wouldn't understand. Average northernly people have almost forgotten the root word jal. Pani is more natural for the Muslims of Bengal region, though the ones living in west Bengal would use jol. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 04:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

The word pānī is not "of Persian origin", it derives straight from Sanskrit पानीय. The Persian word is āb, which was not widely loaned into Indo-Aryan languages. –Austronesier (talk) 05:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Absolutely true. The names Punjab , Chenab, etc have that Persian -ab, which doesn't seem to have spread beyond that region. Muslims of Bengal use synonymous terms more common in colloquial Hindu-Urdu like paani, bhabhi, etc instead of the terms commonly used by the Hindus. Along with many of the Persian terms like zameen, which are also used in other languages. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Alphabet

Might it be helpful to remove the entire "Alphabet" column in the script table? Much steam in the discussion around this article exudes from that column... –Austronesier (talk) 09:40, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I introduced the alphabet column because Za-ari-masen inserted internal links that pointed to the Bengali alphabet and not to Bengali-Assamese script. Languages such as Bishnupriya Manipuri language uses neither the Bengali alphabet nor the Assamese alphabet but a hybrid. So does the Meitei language. I am OK removing the alphabet columns as long as the internal links point to the Bengali-Assamese script. But I don't think they will remain so—e.g. . To resolve this issue, I had started an RfC (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Linguistics#Is_an_"alphabet"_and_a_"script"_same?), but that discussion digressed into something else. Chaipau (talk) 10:05, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Why not remove both the script and alphabet columns to keep it cool? Since all the sources cited here call the script "Bengali", it's a borderline source misrepresentation and synthesis to have Bengali-Assamese as the script anyway. Za-ari-masen (talk) 11:45, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

There is not need to remove the information on scripts just to accommodate a particular reading of references. It is well known (and mentioned in the Bengali-Assamese script article with citations) that many authors, especially those from Bengal, call the Bengali-Assamese/Eastern-Nagari script "Bengali". These authors are referring to the script, not to the alphabet. Bishnupriya Manipuri does not use the Bengali alphabet. There is no ৱ in the Bengali alphabet and Bishnupriya uses it profusely (bpy:বিশেষ:সব_পাতা/ৱ). Chaipau (talk) 12:17, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

That is the WP:SYNTHESIS I'm talking about, one has to point towards other sources to prove that the Bengali script mentioned in these citations are same as Bengali-Assamese. Besides, most of these languages use the same script with few exceptions, this could be easily mentioned in prose. There is no need to have this problematic script column that only repeats "Bengali-Assamese" serially and that too with a synthesis. Za-ari-masen (talk) 12:35, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: When a thing is called differently by different people, and we use a source that calls that thing differently from the way we do, that's not synthesis. –Austronesier (talk) 12:41, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Austronesier when you combine multiple sources to form an information, it's WP:SYNTHESIS. For example, the source for Sylheti language says it uses "Bengali script" but we have Bengali-Assamese added here as the script pointing to the sources cited on Bengali-Assamese script. That's a synthesis. Za-ari-masen (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: No, it's not synthesis if it is just two different names for the same thing. We can cite works about "Cristobal Colon" in our article about Christopher Columbus. –Austronesier (talk) 12:55, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: SYNTH is not a policy, per se, but a part of WP:OR Misplaced Pages:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_a_policy. Could you please point to where any new information that was generated? Also look at Misplaced Pages:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_summary. Your reading cannot be verified , but OTOH what you call SYNTH can be verified! Your reading of SYNTH is at best Misplaced Pages:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_a_rigid_rule and at worst WP:GAME. Chaipau (talk) 12:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Austronesier, can you show me a source that says Sylheti language uses Bengali-Assamese script? If not, then you have to combine multiple sources to prove that "Bengali script" = "Bengali-Assamese script" and thus Sylheti uses Bengali-Assamese script, that's a classic WP:SYNTHESIS. I'm pinging Kmzayeem, UserNumber to know if I'm wrong in my interpretation of WP:synthesis. Za-ari-masen (talk) 13:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Just would like to point out that this could be WP:CANVASS. Chaipau (talk) 13:06, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

We are not having a poll here like AfD or RfC so it's not canvassing, there is no harm in seeking opinions of editors in discussions. Za-ari-masen (talk) 13:10, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: Per what I have explained above, and per the links cited by Chaipau, I don't have to. Identifying synoynms, and replacing one with another in a statement to make it conform with our consensus nomenclature, is not a chain of arguments to reach a new conclusion. Btw, I don't mind UserNumber being pinged here, who has a good understanding of sensible linguistics details. –Austronesier (talk) 13:17, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Austronesier your example of Cristobal Colon/Christopher Columbus is not relevant here IMO which is the Spanish/English name for a person, we are not just talking about alternative names in different languages here. Bengali script also refers to Bengali alphabet so one could very well interpret it this way. Since we are again deflecting from the main discussion, I'm proposing to remove both script and alphabet columns for the reasons mentioned earlier. Let's see what Kmzayeem and UserNumber have to say. Za-ari-masen (talk) 13:25, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: Alternative names in English a.k.a synonyms. –Austronesier (talk) 13:31, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: CANVASS does not cover just AfD or RfC but all discussions. Canvassing is notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate. Please don't keep "bending it". Chaipau (talk) 13:42, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

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