Talk:Auschwitz concentration camp

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Sources

The historian Charles Sydnor has added a list of recommended sources for Auschwitz to his article about the camp in the USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos (volume 1, part A; for the sources, pp. 207–208). Download. Posting it here in case it's helpful. SarahSV

Secondary sources and personal accounts
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum, eds., Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1994). Debórah Dwork and Robert Jan van Pelt, Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present (New York: Norton, 1996). Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, trans. Peter Moss (New York: Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, 1989). Robert Jan van Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the David Irving Trial (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2002). Sybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History, trans. Shaun Whiteside (New York: ECCO, 2005). Danuta Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle 1939–1945 (New York: H. Holt, 1995). Jonathan Webber and Connie Wilsack, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, compiled originally by Teresa Swiebocka (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1993). Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies (New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1981). Wacław Długoborski and Franciszek Piper, Auschwitz 1940–1945: Central Issues in the History of the Camps, five volumes (Oświęcim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 2000). Peter F. Hayes, Industry and Ideology: I.G. Farben in the Nazi Era, 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2000). Josef Buszko, Auschwitz: Nazi Extermination Camp, 2nd ed. (Warsaw: Interpress Publishers, 1985). Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, 3rd ed. (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2003). For the Auschwitz garrison orders: Norbert Frei et al., Standort- und Kommandanturbefehle des Konzentrationslagers Auschwitz 1940–1945, vol. 1 of Darstellungen und Quellen zur Geschichte von Auschwitz (Munich: K.G. Saur, 2000). Personal accounts Rudolf Höss, Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at Auschwitz, ed. Steven Paskuly and trans. Andrew Pollinger (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1992). Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic, I Cannot Forgive (New York: Bantam, 1964). Primo Levi, The Drowned and the Saved, trans. Raymond Rosenthal (New York: Summit Books, 1988). Hermann Langbein, People in Auschwitz, trans. Harry Zohn (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina, 2004). Filip Müller with Helmut Freitag, Auschwitz Inferno: The Testimony of a Sonderkommando, ed. and trans. Susanne Flatauer (London: Routledge, Kegan Paul, 1979). Janusz Nel Siedlecki, Krystyn Olszewski, and Tadeusz Borowski, We Were in Auschwitz, trans. Alicia Nitecki (1946; repr., New York: Welcome Rain Publishers, 2000).

Secondary sources and personal accounts

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum, eds., Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1994).
Debórah Dwork and Robert Jan van Pelt, Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present (New York: Norton, 1996).
Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, trans. Peter Moss (New York: Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, 1989).
Robert Jan van Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the David Irving Trial (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2002).
Sybille Steinbacher, Auschwitz: A History, trans. Shaun Whiteside (New York: ECCO, 2005).
Danuta Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle 1939–1945 (New York: H. Holt, 1995).
Jonathan Webber and Connie Wilsack, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, compiled originally by Teresa Swiebocka (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1993).
Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies (New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1981).
Wacław Długoborski and Franciszek Piper, Auschwitz 1940–1945: Central Issues in the History of the Camps, five volumes (Oświęcim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 2000).
Peter F. Hayes, Industry and Ideology: I.G. Farben in the Nazi Era, 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2000).
Josef Buszko, Auschwitz: Nazi Extermination Camp, 2nd ed. (Warsaw: Interpress Publishers, 1985).
Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, 3rd ed. (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2003).
For the Auschwitz garrison orders: Norbert Frei et al., Standort- und Kommandanturbefehle des Konzentrationslagers Auschwitz 1940–1945, vol. 1 of Darstellungen und Quellen zur Geschichte von Auschwitz (Munich: K.G. Saur, 2000).

Personal accounts

Rudolf Höss, Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at Auschwitz, ed. Steven Paskuly and trans. Andrew Pollinger (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1992).
Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic, I Cannot Forgive (New York: Bantam, 1964).
Primo Levi, The Drowned and the Saved, trans. Raymond Rosenthal (New York: Summit Books, 1988).
Hermann Langbein, People in Auschwitz, trans. Harry Zohn (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina, 2004).
Filip Müller with Helmut Freitag, Auschwitz Inferno: The Testimony of a Sonderkommando, ed. and trans. Susanne Flatauer (London: Routledge, Kegan Paul, 1979).
Janusz Nel Siedlecki, Krystyn Olszewski, and Tadeusz Borowski, We Were in Auschwitz, trans. Alicia Nitecki (1946; repr., New York: Welcome Rain Publishers, 2000).

"Restore images"

I changed some images with edit summary "Image changes: (1) Move File:Map of Auschwitz and environs, 1944.jpg from Background to infobox; (2) replace File:Concentration camps in occupied Europe (2007 borders).png with File:WW2-Holocaust-Europe.png -- wrapped in {{Image frame}} {{Superimpose}} to add a circle around Auschwitz. Clunky but I think WW2 borders is worth it.", and SlimVirgin effectively reverted with edit summary "restore images". I'm sure there was a good reason for the revert, but might I request that it be made public? jnestorius 16:08, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

There were several reasons for the revert. (1) Adding a third image to the infobox wasn't an improvement, especially when it's a map that readers would have to click on to see properly. (2) The 2007 borders for the concentration-camp map were chosen to make it easier for readers to make sense of; the 1942 map is linked in the caption for comparison. (3) The red circle you added isn't there when the map you added is clicked on and most needed; the current map doesn't have that problem. (4) The changes included increasing the size of one map, disturbing the visual integrity of the page, which consists of a series of images of roughly the same size, several within the multiple-image template. SarahSV 02:26, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: thanks for responding.

I can't imagine how the 2007 borders make it easier for readers than the contemporary borders. This is not a locator map. I can't find any relevant MOS for or against the point, but it seems to me that, within Misplaced Pages as elsewhere, contemporary maps are and ought to be standard for explaining historical events.
On another note, I see you also restored the five "See also" links in the Background section. Five is a lot and they are already linked in the running text. I don't think any of them relates sufficiently closely to the topic for there to be much benefit in the extra emphasis of a see-also. Of course these five do give background information, but so do many other articles; why highlight these five in particular?

jnestorius 16:18, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I've posted a note on talk about the arbitration remedy and sourcing in case you're not aware of it. If you have an appropriate source showing the 1942 map is accurate (and when in 1942), I'm happy to look at it. As for the links in the background section, they're "further information" links, not see also, and "why highlight these five", I'd have thought it obvious. SarahSV 18:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, so we can drop the "easier for readers" argument. As regards sourcing expectations, I'm not sure the sources for the 2007 map are much better ("using information from USHMM & Misplaced Pages"). If the sources in the 1942 map are inadequate for showing the picture in this article, are they not also inadequate for linking to it in the caption to the 2007 map? Other articles, currently showing the 1942 map, will need to remove it per the same arbitration, e.g. Sobibor extermination camp.

At a minimum it is not obvious to me why Declarations of war during World War II is more worth highlighting than Wannsee Conference, or Adolf Hitler's rise to power more than Nazism.

jnestorius 19:46, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand what this means: "so we can drop the 'easier for readers' argument". I haven't dropped it. I try to focus on the reader all the time. SarahSV 20:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

~~How would Wannsee Conference be part of the background?~~ SarahSV 20:51, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Note: I've just noticed that I got this article mixed up with The Holocaust when I wrote the above. My apologies. SarahSV 17:49, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I am sure we both focus on the readers. My contention is that a map showing the 1942 borders would be more helpful for readers of this article than a map showing the 2007 borders. I understood from point #2 in your original 4-point comment that you had the opposite opinion; I understood from your 12 April comment that you were not pressing this point. Perhaps I misunderstood one or both comments. jnestorius 15:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 April 2021

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I think the successful escape on April 5, 1944, by Siegfried Lederer and Viktor Pestek, should be mentioned in the section “Escapes, Auschwitz Protocols”. Given that the escape has its own lengthy article, which was recently featured on the front page, I believe the incident is notable enough to merit a mention in this section. A suggested change is below, with the added part in bold.

Four Polish prisoners—Eugeniusz Bendera (serial number 8502), Kazimierz Piechowski (no. 918), Stanisław Gustaw Jaster (no. 6438), and Józef Lempart (no. 3419)—escaped successfully on 20 June 1942. After breaking into a warehouse, three of them dressed as SS officers and stole rifles and an SS staff car, which they drove out of the camp with the fourth handcuffed as a prisoner. They wrote later to Rudolf Höss apologizing for the loss of the vehicle. On April 5, 1944, Czech Jew Siegfried Lederer escaped with Viktor Pestek, a disillusioned SS guard. Lederer attempted to warn Jews in the Theresienstadt Ghetto, but was unsuccessful. He and Pestek returned to the camp to rescue more prisoners, but failed, with Pestek being caught and later executed. On 21 July 1944, Polish inmate Jerzy Bielecki dressed in an SS uniform and, using a faked pass, managed to cross the camp's gate with his Jewish girlfriend, Cyla Cybulska, pretending that she was wanted for questioning. Both survived the war. For having saved her, Bielecki was recognized by Yad Vashem as Righteous Among the Nations. Jogarz1921 (talk) 06:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Czech 2000, p. 150 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFCzech2000 (help); also see Khaleeli, Homa (11 April 2011). "I escaped from Auschwitz". The Guardian.
Świebocki 2000, pp. 203–204. sfn error: no target: CITEREFŚwiebocki2000 (help)

Hi Jogarz, good idea. I'll add something when I have time to check whether the sourcing is already in the article. Thank you, SarahSV 22:51, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion revival (archive 6): Polish name

Further information: Talk:Auschwitz concentration camp/Archive 6 § Polish name

The Polish name per the official website is "Obóz koncentracyjny Auschwitz". – Batreeq 01:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

That's the museum. It wasn't a Polish camp. It was a German camp. That's why we have the German name in the first sentence. There's no need to mention a third language there. Anything else can go in the infobox. See MOS:LEAD about avoiding clutter. SarahSV 01:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. Auschwitz was a German-run camp located in Poland. Therefore, the Polish name is relevant. It is permissible to list more than one additional language in the introduction; for example, Ethiopia lists six. The name cited to the museum which represents the establishment is certainly more reliable than a conjectured one using "Oświęcim". – Batreeq 01:58, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The issue of whether a Polish name should be added is interesting and I need to thinka about this further, but there is a major technical problem: what is the Polish name of this entity? TL;DR - I think there is no "one" name, and the entity is known under numerous synonyms. Polish people, colloquially, refer to this entity using the Polish, not German, town name ("Obóz koncentracyjny w Oświęcimiu"), simply b/c everyone knows the Polish name of the town, but only people interested in history know the German one. That said, pl wiki article is at pl:Auschwitz-Birkenau. German is at de:KZ Auschwitz. A review of Polish media and literature suggests both Polish and German names are used, to determine if there is a preferred, modern pattern or trend, more analysis would be needed. Sample Polish academic article using Oświęcim, sample one using Auschwitz. Anyway, in addition to Oświęcim vs Auschwitz (vs Auschwitz-Birkenau, as many Polish sources prefer to use A-B rather than just A name), there is also the usual issue of "concentration camp" vs "death camp" issue, just in Polish ("obóz koncentracyjny" vs "obóz zagłady", "obóz śmierci", maybe something else too). Oh, and re op, I think "Obóz koncentracyjny w Auschwitz" would be more grammatically correct than "Obóz koncentracyjny Auschwitz", but it is less popular (shrug). A plethora of minor variants due to Polish grammar make any search more complex than in English :( Not using the Polish name may be a reasonable way to avoid headache with determining what Polish name to use... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Poland had no reason to name it at the time. Their relationship with it was that Poles were held there. SarahSV 02:15, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

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