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Centralized discussion
For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.What happened to Misplaced Pages?
When I logged into Misplaced Pages this morning, strange things happened. All the links to my watchlist, preferences, contributions, etc., have simply vanished. There isn't even a search box so I can search for stuff. I can go to the main page and my own user page, and that is it. (Just to get here I had to do a google search.) The link to my talk page was there momentarily, but as soon as I replied to a message that link disappeared as well. All the useful links on the side are gone. Tables of content are missing. I don't know if this is some glitch or there was a major change to the website, but as of today it seems to be practically unusable. I don't know where else to bring this up, except that I know a lot of people watch this page who may know what the heck happened, so I'm just letting people know that there seems to be a big problem. No need to reply to this message. I don't seem to have access to my watchlist anymore, so I would never see the replies even if I was watching. Just FYI, because as of today the site has gotten impossible to use. Zaereth (talk) 21:11, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- It is the new Vector skin. Most of those links are found under the top right profile icon. I assume you can switch back to other skins. Masem (t) 22:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Zaereth see Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Vector 2022 deployment update. There was also a previous RfC. S0091 (talk) 22:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- No clue what any of that means. Skin? Vector? No freakin' clue. I don't speak computerese nor read hieroglyphics. That's what I liked most about Misplaced Pages, is that everything was in plain English --right there in front of you. Took me 12 years (I think) to figure out what little I do know, and it's not much when it comes to computers or the internet. Just enough to get me by. What I do know is I'd rather shove drywall screws into my eyeballs than learn a new operating system or relearn how to use Misplaced Pages all over from scratch. (There isn't even a search box so I can look around. What are people supposed to do? Search from google?) When most websites do this, that's the day I suddenly lose interest in those sites, so it's been fun, but unless things go back to normal I'm out. I got better things to do that try to figure out this mess. Zaereth (talk) 02:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, Zaereth. Go to your "Preferences" and then "Appearance ", and then select "Vector (2010)" and save your change. Problem solved quite quickly. Cullen328 (talk) 03:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Multiply Zaereth by X, way to fix what wasn't broken.
Is this our New Coke moment?Luckily I use Monobook so nothing has changed. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)- Whose brilliant idea was this anyway? Can anyone tell me exactly what was broken that needed fixing? How are WP visitors to know how to look something up? Thanks Cullen for telling how to fix it. Sectionworker (talk) 04:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Instead of solving genuine software problems that impede the work of productive Misplaced Pages editors, which would be the logical and rational thing to do, the WMF spends massive amounts of money on busywork upgrades to fully functional "skins" to appease the developers who want to work on something "new and shiny". The Android app to upload smartphone photos to Wikimedia Commons is just one of many examples of things that should have been priorized but haven't been. That app has sucked for years, is bug ridden, crashes and fails frequently, and needs to be uninstalled and reinstalled repeatedly just to upload a few photos. I would love to donate my photos about notable topics, but that app is an active impediment to my efforts. Cullen328 (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Another example is the massive amount of money and staff time spent over many years on the failed efforts to develop a functional mobile site and associated mobile apps. For at least ten years, the fully functional but misnamed "desktop site" has worked just fine on modern smartphones and other mobile devices. And still today, smartphone editors are automatically directed to a crappy site that impedes collaborative editing, and are denied easy access to a fully funtional site that allows them to flourish as collaborative editors. It's a tragedy but very few top level Wikipedians care about it at all. And paid developers have built their lucrative careers on failure to achieve their simple goal, year after year after year. Cullen328 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, as one that has used the desktop mode on a mobile phone (rather than the mobile version) the old skin was widely inconsistent in how things were displayed and made it very difficult to use. The updated skin works very much consistently on mobile display, so that's a clear improvement I see. Masem (t) 13:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Another example is the massive amount of money and staff time spent over many years on the failed efforts to develop a functional mobile site and associated mobile apps. For at least ten years, the fully functional but misnamed "desktop site" has worked just fine on modern smartphones and other mobile devices. And still today, smartphone editors are automatically directed to a crappy site that impedes collaborative editing, and are denied easy access to a fully funtional site that allows them to flourish as collaborative editors. It's a tragedy but very few top level Wikipedians care about it at all. And paid developers have built their lucrative careers on failure to achieve their simple goal, year after year after year. Cullen328 (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Someone obviously went "why can't the site look the same on desktop and mobile devices" and this travesty is the result. To quote Maddox, "I didn't buy a 19" monitor to have 50% of its screen realestate pissed away on firing white pixels, {{rpa}}". – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 13:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- The new skin was not at all considered for mobile devices, and the full width mode can be disabled by clicking the button in the bottom right(though why is it in the dead bottom right???) Aaron Liu (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- What Cullen328 and filelakeshoe said... Ugh. Give up. DeCausa (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- I just realized that this may not be about the limited width issue but about the all the other whitespace. That is a problem I agree. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:16, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- The new skin was not at all considered for mobile devices, and the full width mode can be disabled by clicking the button in the bottom right(though why is it in the dead bottom right???) Aaron Liu (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Instead of solving genuine software problems that impede the work of productive Misplaced Pages editors, which would be the logical and rational thing to do, the WMF spends massive amounts of money on busywork upgrades to fully functional "skins" to appease the developers who want to work on something "new and shiny". The Android app to upload smartphone photos to Wikimedia Commons is just one of many examples of things that should have been priorized but haven't been. That app has sucked for years, is bug ridden, crashes and fails frequently, and needs to be uninstalled and reinstalled repeatedly just to upload a few photos. I would love to donate my photos about notable topics, but that app is an active impediment to my efforts. Cullen328 (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Whose brilliant idea was this anyway? Can anyone tell me exactly what was broken that needed fixing? How are WP visitors to know how to look something up? Thanks Cullen for telling how to fix it. Sectionworker (talk) 04:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Multiply Zaereth by X, way to fix what wasn't broken.
- Hello, Zaereth. Go to your "Preferences" and then "Appearance ", and then select "Vector (2010)" and save your change. Problem solved quite quickly. Cullen328 (talk) 03:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- No clue what any of that means. Skin? Vector? No freakin' clue. I don't speak computerese nor read hieroglyphics. That's what I liked most about Misplaced Pages, is that everything was in plain English --right there in front of you. Took me 12 years (I think) to figure out what little I do know, and it's not much when it comes to computers or the internet. Just enough to get me by. What I do know is I'd rather shove drywall screws into my eyeballs than learn a new operating system or relearn how to use Misplaced Pages all over from scratch. (There isn't even a search box so I can look around. What are people supposed to do? Search from google?) When most websites do this, that's the day I suddenly lose interest in those sites, so it's been fun, but unless things go back to normal I'm out. I got better things to do that try to figure out this mess. Zaereth (talk) 02:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Zaereth By the way, the skin doesn't actually do that, the site was momentarily half-broken while the skin was being deployed. Usually all these features are there. Most of the buttons you mentioned are in the top right dropdown. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:14, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Just so it's clear, the search bar is at the top center of the page, as seen in this screenshot of Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article:
- If you're not seeing the search bar, or (on much narrower screens) a magnifying glass search icon, please report a bug (a note at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical) is good enough – I know the devs are watching that page).
Built-in opt-out button - If you decide that it's just not for you, that's fine. I remember when we switched from MonoBook to Vector 2010, and about 20% of us opted out. So far, fewer people seem to be opting out this round, but I wanted to point out the built-in button for switching back to the old look (or any style you prefer).
- If the sidebar's collapsed, then click the
Hamburger button by the logo to open it. Click "Switch to old look", which will take you to the exact section of Special:Preferences that you need to be in. The "preview" option for each item will let you find the style that you like best (MonoBook if you prefer information density; Vector 2010 if you like last month's style; Minerva if you want it to match the mobile site; Timeless if you need lots of room for gadgets; Vector 2022 if you want to see what most readers are seeing these days). After you've made your choice, remember to click the big blue button at the bottom of the page to save your prefs. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:52, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT on the new layout. Actually i really really dont like it... Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm finding it extremely hard to believe you can't find the search bar, unless there is something else technically going on that is suppressing it. Schierbecker (talk) 12:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
NFL Thoughts
Wsg, I'm a lifelong Bills fan, it's nice to be writing a message on your talk page. I'm just writing to express my extreme disappointment in what happened yesterday, we blew a big game. As a reaction, I wrote some rather crude stuff on my sandbox, I suggest you avoid it, unless you don't like the Chiefs, Pats/Bucs or Bengals. Anyways, I just want to know your personal input on the NFL, what I could do to forget about yesterday, your personal favorite teams, players, etc. I'm writing to you because, when we're talking Misplaced Pages, you're pretty much the Almighty. I use Misplaced Pages a lot, and I could really use some advice on how to cope with a stressful thing like this. While you're at it, I found this: https://img.delicious.com.au/WqbvXLhs/del/2016/06/more-the-merrier-31380-2.jpg Enjoy.
- B D A *Whopper, whopper, whopper, whopper. Junior, double, triple whopper. Flame-grilled taste with perfect toppers. I rule this day. Lettuce, mayo, pickle, ketchup. It's okay if I don't want that. Impossible whole bacon whopper. Any whopper my way.* -Joseph Mama (∞-∞) BubbaDaAmogus (talk) 14:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- Interestingly, because I grew up in Alabama, which doesn't have an NFL team, I never became a fan or all that interested in it. With my family, even if I have to stay up very late because I live in the UK, I do tend to watch the Alabama/Auburn game every year, and a few games on top of that if Alabama is playing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thoughts on Alabama's next-door neighbor, Georgia? Tails Wx 13:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- An important rival and a well-earned win in the 2023 National Championship. I do think that the 65-7 outcome was so lopsided as to call into question something about the way the whole process works, but I suppose almost any system can result in an underdog having a great day in the semifinals only to find themselves hopelessly outmatched in the final. I'm glad you didn't ask about Georgia Tech, as I'm still unhappy about that incident that happened 3 years before I was even born. But I assume since you asked that you are a Bulldogs fan and will understand about Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate haha!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:36, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Not a Bulldogs fan, but a Hoosier. I hope you remember Bryce Young from 2021. Great Alabama quarterback! Tails Wx 14:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Man, the Crimson Tide will be really proud of Tua this year, I think either them or Mr. Relevant will win Super Bowl LVII. Avoid picking Kermit or Joebunny at all times. But I'm over the loss now, still bitter about the last two I mentioned. We should be allowed to win the next Super Bowl though. I don't follow college football much, but I did track the Championship Game by chance and I saw the unpredictable. I can only imagine teams other than the ones in the SEC going big every year, so unfair.
- - B D A *Person A: You know Joe? Person B: Lemme guess, Joe Mama? A: No, stupid! Joe Schmoe!* BubbaDaAmogus (talk) 20:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- I mean Jalen Hurts, not Tua Turndaballova, Mr. Softskull can be forgotten about, I bet he'll NEVER win a ring. BubbaDaAmogus (talk) 21:19, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- Not a Bulldogs fan, but a Hoosier. I hope you remember Bryce Young from 2021. Great Alabama quarterback! Tails Wx 14:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- An important rival and a well-earned win in the 2023 National Championship. I do think that the 65-7 outcome was so lopsided as to call into question something about the way the whole process works, but I suppose almost any system can result in an underdog having a great day in the semifinals only to find themselves hopelessly outmatched in the final. I'm glad you didn't ask about Georgia Tech, as I'm still unhappy about that incident that happened 3 years before I was even born. But I assume since you asked that you are a Bulldogs fan and will understand about Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate haha!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:36, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thoughts on Alabama's next-door neighbor, Georgia? Tails Wx 13:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
ChatGPT and large languages models
Hey Jimbo,
There's need for the WMF input on WP:VPP#Misplaced Pages response to chatbot-generated content. Specifically, what is the WMF's position on:
- The constructive role LLMs could have in the development of Wiki content over the short and medium term.
- Mitigation of risks stemming from the use of LLMs by vandals, criminals, "sock farmers", and other bad-faithed individuals.
- The availability of technical tools that address both of the above.
Best regards,
François Robere (talk) 14:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Great - I can't speak for the Foundation at all but I think it's safe to say that in many ways the WMF staff and board are just like everyone else in this community - very interested in the possibilities of constructive roles here, and worried about the risks as well. I suppose what I am saying is that I don't think the WMF *has* a full position yet, nor would I expect them to!
- It looks like the conversation there is a good one and people are learning.
- Now, I can't speak for the Foundation but I can speak for myself. I'll only speak at the moment about a few positive ideas that I have rather than go into details about the negatives which are huge and which can be summed up prettye easily with "ChatGPT and similar models make stuff up out of thin air which is horrible".
- If you go back in the archives here on my talk page (don't bother, as I'll explain enough) there was a discussion about a proposed article that hadn't made it through a new page review. In response to an inquiry about it, I opened up a newspaper archive website (that I pay for personally) and quickly found 10-15 decent sources which could have been used to improve the article. I skimmed each of them just to figure out if I thought the subject was notable or not. I passed along the sources (but they aren't that useful to anyone who doesn't subscribe to a newspaper archive website) because I didn't have time to actually read them carefully enough to improve the original stub article.
- Now, ChatGPT does not have the ability to follow a URL. Also, the archives are in jpeg format, so ChatGPT would not be able to read a download of it, and I don't have any easy way to do image-to-text. (It would be faster to just read and write the articles in this case). But imagine that those minor technical limitations were removed in some way. Suppose I could say: "Hey, ChatGPT, here's a Misplaced Pages stub. And here are 15 links to sources that I, an experienced Wikipedian, judge to be relevant. Please read these articles and add facts from them to the article, adhering to Misplaced Pages policies and writing in a typical Misplaced Pages style. Don't make anything up that isn't clearly in the articles."
- That doesn't strike me as a super far-fetched use of this technology. It would then require me to read the output, check that nothing was made up out of thin air, and to make sure it wasn't getting it wrong in some other way. But I suspect this would be a productivity boost for us. And if not today, then in 3 years? 5 years?
I can think of similar use cases. "Here's a Misplaced Pages entry. Follow all the links to sources and read them. Find sentences in this entry which are in disagreement with what the sources say, if any." "Here's a paragraph from Misplaced Pages. Someone has complained that the article introduces a subtle bias not found in the original sources. Check the sources and rewrite the article to more closely comply with NPOV policies."
In each case don't imagine some automatic result, just think about whether this might be useful to good editors in at least some cases. It's hard to see that it wouldn't be. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Category: