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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The article is clearly problematic. Nobody wants to keep the article as it stands - calls are either for deleting or for renaming, rewriting or merging, with no agreement on any solution, though a strongest call for deletion, the safest course is to delete the article and the various names it has been called, and to offer to userfy the material so it can be worked on away from mainspace. There is some sense in the suggestion that a section should first be started in Iranian Azerbaijanis and split out from there when ready.. SilkTork 23:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Genocide of Azerbaijani people in Iran

Genocide of Azerbaijani people in Iran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Claim of Genocide with no RS. I myself couldn't find any reliable content supporting the claim in English. Rafy talk 15:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Delete: According to WP:Partisanship , "Partisanship is the tendency of supporters of political parties to subscribe to or at leastsupport their party's views and policies in contrast to those of other parties. Extreme partisanship is sometimes referred to as partisan warfare (see Political party)". I think that article is an exact example of Partisanship , contrasting with WP:NPOV.Besides that , the page seems to be a test page :A page created to test editing or other Misplaced Pages functions. Having no reference and no other standards of Misplaced Pages ... --Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:07, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. LadyofShalott 22:59, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Speedy Delete Genocide is a serious accusation that requires independent scholarly verification. Misplaced Pages's policy is "“Exceptional claims require exceptional sources” ". The user who has created this page, appears to be on disruptive ultra-nationalist Pan-Turkist editor, trying to blame the victims of the well-known well-documented Assyrian Genocide and Armenian Genocide by Turkey, for a fictitious genocide against "Turks" , which reinforce the idea that this page is nothing but nationalist WP:Soapboxing that should be speedy deleted, and the user in question should be blocked from further disrupting Misplaced Pages with his hate filled nationalist agenda targeting other ethnic groups in such a manner. Kurdo777 (talk) 00:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Note to closing admin:I am not a Pan-Turkist or ultra nationalist as Kurdo777 wants to intend.Likely Kurdo777 is an ultra nationalist (a Pan Kurdist, Pan Iranist , Pan Farsist or ...) and by accusation like this wants to eclipse his distorted and subversive activities in favor of Kurds and against Azerbaijani people.He cannot tolerate even a flag of Azerbaijani people of Iran Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Flag of South Azerbaijan.However, many minorities and even states and provinces in Europe and U.S have their own flag.They confuse here with a totalitarian state, and with different false scandals and accusations want to impose their ideas to others.I do not have any problem with Armenians or Assyrians.I only write part of bloody history of Azerbaijani people of Iran.This article is not related to Assyrians and Armenians problems with Turkey. I condole with all nations which were exposed to genocide.Orartu (talk) 06:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Delete. Genocide ?!!! It's a pure POV, plus there aren't any reliable sources for it. In fact 11:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment:Jalal Al-e-Ahmad a Persian writer in his book "In the Service and Betrayal of Intellectuals" about cultural genocide of Azerbaijani people in Iran has written:"Tehran government, if not politically and economically - but certainly in terms of culture, considers Azerbaijan as its colony and the first abuse of this cultural colonialism is killing Azerbaijani language and culture".Jalal Al-e-Ahmad's quotation is neutral, and reliable about this issue.Because he is a famous Persian writer not Azerbaijani--Orartu (talk) 14:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
  • You are not using the above source properly at all. There is a big difference between Killing people and Killing the language or culture. I strongly believe that there is no such thing as Genocide, and this article should be deleted. In fact 09:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Plus he is not quoting the book correctly, nor is Jalal Al-Ahmad a scholar. I do not think he knows the definition of Genocide. There is an article Iranian Azerbaijanis which he can mention the Pahlavid era based on WP:RS Western sources. Else the current list of weblogs, psuedo-scholarly writings and non-English publications (many from websites) are not WP:RS. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 13:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Note that non-english sources are fine (per WP:NONENG), but of course they must still satisfy WP:RS. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
extended commentary about "genocide" vs. "agitation" and some tangentially relevant issues
  • "Comment about the changing the name of article" : Definition of genocide is almost clear . But it is not clear what social acts are named as agitations . As I am reading the sources , almost in none of them a single term of agitations has been used . What does it means ?!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Comment on comenting":ultra-nationalist Persian movements specially in Pahlavi period against the Azerbaijani people of Iran, their language, history, identity and ....--Orartu (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • In the page Agitation (political) , the meaning is exactly the opposite .

    An agitator is a person who actively supports some ideology or movement with speeches and especially actions.

    .But anyway , there is also another article , that uses the word in other meaning :Anti-Hindi agitations of Tamil Nadu . In this article , and associated articles , the word tends to mean "mass protests, riots, student and political movements" .None of the meanings are used in any of the sources , regardless of sources to be reliable or not .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Comment on comenting":Bu there are many usages of word genocide in these sources , anyway.Agitation and agitate meanings in English language:
"1.To arouse interest in (a cause, for example) by use of the written or spoken word; debate.
"1.Excitement of public feeling by discussion, appeals, etc.; as, the antislavery agitation; labor agitation".
"2.the act of moving something vigorously; the shaking or stirring of something"
"3.the act of attempting to stir up public opinion for or against something"
"4.Agitation refers to the process of moving something forcefully or violently".

For more meanings of these words see:, and , please stop finding false faults.--Orartu (talk) 17:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

    • Thank you for showing me the dictionary . And where in the sources , regardless of reliability of that sources , the word "Agitation" is used ? And if you think the word genocide is used in that articles , then why you changed the Wiki's article name ? Indeed , if we are talking about a topic , then what is the topic ? Agitation , Genocide , cultural assimilation , demonstrations , violation of human rights ?! Every one of these concepts may have their own article ! If you still believe you are writing about the genocide , then what's the "Agitation" ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • CommentYou're welcome.I thought you couldn't find dictionary.This article is about Anti-Azerbaijani agitations in Iran.The sources support this. This article involve all Anti-Azerbaijani agitations which are created by ultra-nationalists in Iran, such as encouragement for cultural assimilation, denial of identity,...--Orartu (talk) 02:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment This article is a fork as we have already Anti-Turkism, Iranian Azeris, Ethnic minorities in Iran, and host of such articles. Some of the authors are random people (some even Azeri like Javad Shaykh ol Eslami who is from Zanjan and is not Persian) who have expressed variety of opinions. If there is any real sources in this article, they should be merged to here: (ethnic status in Iran), with a portion for the Pahlavi era. Sure that article needs a cleanup, but at least the sources are verifiable and in English. The current article is simply original research copied from several blogs/papers. It needs some serious non-regional (people not from the region) sources who are WP:RS (not those quoting poorpirar or claiming Sumerian are Turks,,.. but Western authors. For example Tadsuez Swietchowski is much more neutral.. these can be put in Iranian Azeris). [REDACTED] only uses reliable authors (Professors and works that are well cited by other academicians). The current article is cut & paste OR. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
    • CommentMost of sources are Persian books which written by Persians.Bring reliable source for your claim about eyhnicity of Javad Shaykh ol Eslami, but because of his views he is surely a Pan Iranist or Pan Farsist.If[REDACTED] only uses reliable authors (Professors and works that are well cited by other academicians), then all the non sense and false claims of Ahmad Kasravi and other Pan-Iranists about Azerbaijani people must be omitted.Because writers such as Kasravi, Javad Mashkur and ... were not full professors nor scholars.Pan-Iranist and Pan-Farsist people want to exterminate Azerbaijani identity, language and culture snd they also deny the Azerbaijani identity of this nation

, all the users who want deletion of this article seems to be ultra-nationalist, they are not neutral about Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani people of Iran --Orartu (talk) 18:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)--Orartu (talk) 18:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Javad Shaykh Ol Eslami is random author from Zanjan (and an Azeri) . We do not quote random authors just for the sake of it. And you cannot label him pan something if there is no reliable source. It is like quoting random blogs. If you want to create an article on Javad Shaykh Eslami (if he is notable enough), then you may attribute a quote to him. As per Kasravi, he is also an Azeri. So is Mahmud Afshar Yazdi who is two generations Azeri. But[REDACTED] hardly uses Kasravi, Afshar.etc. Kasravi though is deemed reliable by Richard Frye, Minorsky and others. He has been quoted by them. But Kasravi is not mentioned a single time in "Azerbaijani people" unlike what you claim. Prof. Mashkur is a full Professor of Tehran university (not a random lecturer), but he is not used at all in English wikipedia. Also your translations of quotes could be unreliable as well as you are quoting websites, and do not have the original scanned books. The convention in Misplaced Pages English is to use scholarly Western sources and not intrepretation of quotes from regional authors. So the article is a major violation of WP:OR and WP:synthesis. Also please mind WP:SOAPBOX. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment Misplaced Pages articles like is not reliable, there is not neutral source in it.Show reliable source for P.H degree of Javad Mashkur too.Is he a full professor of Pan-Iranist field?Bring western and neutral sources about ethnicity of Afshar Yazdi too--Orartu (talk) 18:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

'Comment Your not making sense. The article is in Persian about Javad Shaykh Eslami. But he is not a notable scholar in my opinion . I just wanted to point out that he is Zanjani (you can search for it yourself). Also again watch WP:SOAPBOX. But Javad Mashkur is not quoted in English Misplaced Pages. If you have a problem with him in Persian wikipedia, go bring it up there. As per Dr. Afshar Yazdi..it is in one of his own biographies. But do you have any source about his ethnicity? Besides he is another random auuthor and you cannot state random opinion of authors as a Misplaced Pages article. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

      • Comment They were Pan Iranists.They were against Azerbaijani people of Iran.Their writings are not neutral,because they are ultra-nationalists,I am not interested in any ultra-nationalist person, then they are not important for me to bother myself about them. --Orartu (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
          • Comment what occurs in other wikipedias is not a concern here. What matters is western scholarly sources describing what you have mentioned. Furthermore, there is a section about this in Iranian Azeris. Then there is a section in Anti-Turkism. Misplaced Pages cannot continously fork articles. Choose a single article among these please. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 19:03, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
            • CommentBut you reported my contributions in English[REDACTED] to in Farsi[REDACTED] and he reported to one of admins in negative form.This article is not related to Anti-Turkism, it is completely related to the sufferings of suppressed and disadvantaged Azerbaijani people of Iran.This issue is so extensive and painful that it needs an independent article.--Orartu (talk) 19:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
                • Comment Please bring Western scholarly sources on the issue. The current article as it stands is original research. Much better studies have been done by the likes of say Tadsuez Swietchowski. In order to have a balanced article, you can definitely include reliable items in the Iranian-Azeris article. But the current state of the article is simply WP:OR, as none of the sources talk about disadvantaged and suppressed. What a few authors (like the azeri author Shaykh ol Eslami) writes cannot be considered "disadvantage". 1000s of people state their opinions and it does not make noticeable for[REDACTED] unless the person is notable. Also loaded terms like "ultranatiolist" and "pan-Iranist" need secondary Western sources or else it is not reliable. Thanks. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 19:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
                • Comment'You said:"But most Iranians are not fond of inciting ethnic hatred".But Persian people humiliate Azerbaijani people and give them scornful titles like Donkey, every day Persian people with tellng scornful and offensive jokes against Azerbaijani people contempt them.In other words, Azerbaijani people of Iran are scorn of Persian people. This is famous poem of Azerbaijani poet Mohammad-Hossein Shahriarwho referred to these ill-treatments.All these ill-treatments are related to this issue that Azerbaijani people of Iran only want to keep their identity, languge,culture, history,... but Ultra-nationalist Persians cannot tolerate these and with any device, including humiliation,want to break the resistance of the Azerbaiani people in defending their granted rights.--Orartu (talk) 19:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
              • Comment' As per "Genocide" I searched in google books and no such reliable items were found. However, the Mongol massacare of Persia (majority of whose troops were Turks) is considered a genocide in some books. But most Iranians are not fond of inciting ethnic hatred. These sort of ethnic hatred stuff has been exported from USSR and now Caucasus. It has no basis in Iran, and in the end it will not work. This sort of work is done by lobbyist in Misplaced Pages and it brings out no benefit. I guess some people are intent on starting ethnic civil wars in the region for geopolitical benefits. Are they sure that its smoke will not reach their eyes? --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
              • Comment'These sort of ethnic hatred stuff has been invented by Persian people of Iran and they want to export this to other regions too.Most of Iranians are not fond of inciting ethnic hatred but majority of Persian people of Iran are .If you want I can bring source for you. You are the activist of this sort of people, both in Farsi[REDACTED] and English wikipedia. Turks and Mongols are completely different nations.Turkish people were massacared by Mongols too, specially members of Turkish clan of Kharazmshahi.This happened once in past, but Anti-Azerbaijani agitations in Iran are repeated every day--Orartu (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment . The bulk of the Mongol troops were actually Turks. From the 10th century Oghuz Nomads to actually the Qajar times, many actual massacares occured against native Iranian speakers. But these things are not publicized because they simply create ethnic hatred (like you have in Armenia/Azerbaijan countries). As per "anti-Azerbaijani agitations in Iran" being "repeated" everyday, the current title is POV. There is no google books/scholars mentioning this. You need WP:RS sources. Begzaar beh Farsi behet begooyam. Setiz/nabard raah andaakhtan miyaan-e mardomaan-e Iran beh sood hichkas nist. In qabul keh rejimeh Iran hoqooq-e bashar mardom raa raa'ayat nemikonad. Vali inkeh bein zabaanhaayeh mokhtalef dar Iran kineh dorost konim kaareh besiyaar naashaayesti hast. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 20:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment Use English only on this, the English Misplaced Pages.But look at here and your suggestions to this user .Telling scornful jokes against Azerbaijani people and addressing them with titles like Donkey are done by ordinary Persian people too, You can see different ordinary Persians blogs about these issues,can you deny these issues? Orinary Pesians like you in Farsi[REDACTED] distort Azerbaijani people's history, language, identity,....--Orartu (talk) 06:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment The article is still fork of Iranian Azeris. If there is a new article needed about human rights, and Iranian Azeris, anti-turkism, ethnic minorities in Iran, Human rights in Iran are not sufficient, then one can consider "human rights in Iran". There is no other[REDACTED] article with titles such as "Anti-X agitations in Y". An article on human rights can be comprehensive and state all positions. But the current article is just onesided POV pushing with hardly any real sources. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 20:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
  • CommentIf Mongols did any injustice against Persians, why Azerbaijani people of Iran must atone?However, the Azerbaijani-inhabited regions of Iran were also destroyed in Mongols' invasions.Azerbaijani people and other Turkiush peoples were massacared too.Commanders are important, because they command to soldiers.Bring also neutral western sources about your historical claims about presence of Oghuz Turks in Mongols' army, remember that Turks themselves have been victims in Mongols' attacks and assaults.Oppressions and repressions against Azerbaijanis in Iran are very high and vast, the sufferings of Azerbaijani people of Iran need an independant article.If Persians think Mongols did bad against other peoples, why they do same things against other peoples specially Azerbaijanis?Evil on behalf of everyone is bad. --Orartu (talk) 06:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Comment on Commenting" This page tends to be place to talk about deleting the page or keeping it . This is not a general chat room . I think if user Orartu continue to use this page against the Wikipedian rule of WP:Soap , that will make any closing admin so tired to read all comments , and the out come will be something such as "No consensus" - that means no one will be able to read the bulk of comments !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:19, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Comment on Commenting" It is your idea, all my writings are related to defend this article. Khodabandeh14 confuse here with chatroom and begins one disscussion, and I only say my opinion. --Orartu (talk) 09:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment. Thanks Alborz, you are right. My final comment to Orartu,.. Azerbaijan was not speaking Turkish during the Mongol era and over a dozen massacares (not the light weal stuff of this article) occured in history from Turks against Iranians. However, Iranians are not racist to constantly focus on these issues. Your WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NPA make discussion fruitless. And also IRI is not "Persian" and your generalization shows your level of hatred. I already voted delete and I am not going to further engage with you here.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:24, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    • CommentAny way you want.The dominant culture in IRI is Persian culture.Because only Persian language, Persian history, Persian culture is official in Iran not other minorities'. I have no hatred in any ethnic, I only defend from realities.Bring again neutral and reliable western source written with a Full Professor of famous and reliable university about your claims about ethnic of Azerbaijani people.--Orartu (talk) 14:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Iranian Azerbaijanis. (Or more precisely, move to Status of Azerbaijani people in Iran without a redirect, then redirect that article, so that we don't get a redirect from the unfounded genocide claims, but still preserve the history in case there's anything to be salvaged.) "Agitation" is totally vague and unhelpful. A NPOV article like Status of Azerbaijani people in Iran could be fine and could address all sides of the issue, but essentially that content is already located in Iranian Azerbaijanis. I'm not sure if this is a POV fork because that natural parent article is locked down or what--and I'm not inclined to wade into ethnic disputes here to figure out the whole history... Right now this article is basically incoherent. If any content could be rewritten in NPOV understandable English, it should begin as a section in Iranian Azerbaijanis, where it will get more eyes and input. There, it could be integrated into the history section or into the section on the status of the ethnic group. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete and salt — ] is the NPOV name for this topic and it already exists. There is nothing obvious to merge. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
      • CommentUser:Khodabandeh14, intentionally has entered some of the irrevalent materials of Iranian Azerbaijanis to ruin this article.This article wants to show the tragic situation of Iranian Azerbaijanis, specially in terms of cultural and racial aspects
      • Comment Statements such as This article wants... are direct evidence of POV. The only thing a[REDACTED] article can/should want is to be a good article on the named topic. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
        • comment—i think statements such as this article wants... are much more likely to be direct evidence of their author's not being a native speaker of english. i don't know azerbaijani, but it's normal in at least some languages to say "X wants to Y" to mean "the purpose of X is to do Y".— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 16:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
          • comment point taken. Stuartyeates (talk) 20:13, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
            • comment—Orartu, please, please, don't change your remarks after people have responded to them. it makes it very, very difficult for newcomers to follow the conversation. if you change your mind about what you want to say, please use strikethrough so that everyone can easily understand the comments that follow in response to your old versions.15:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
              • commentYou are right.Thanks for your helps and guidances.--Orartu

(talk) 16:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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