User talk:Jerome Frank Disciple

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jerome Frank Disciple (talk | contribs) at 16:42, 5 May 2023 (→1RR violation at Libs of TikTok: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 16:42, 5 May 2023 by Jerome Frank Disciple (talk | contribs) (→1RR violation at Libs of TikTok: Reply)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

A belated welcome!

Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Misplaced Pages, Jerome Frank Disciple! I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may still benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Misplaced Pages:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Again, welcome! Drmies (talk) 16:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of 1984 New York City Subway shooting

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article 1984 New York City Subway shooting you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Freedom4U -- Freedom4U (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 28

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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Bernhard Goetz.jpeg

A tag has been placed on File:Bernhard Goetz.jpeg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section F7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a non-free file from a commercial source (e.g. Associated Press, Getty Images), where the file itself is not the subject of sourced commentary. If you can explain why the file can be used under the non-free content guidelines, please add the appropriate non-free use tag and rationale.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. :3 F4U (they /it) 16:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello! I added an argument for why this photo of Goetz, would, relative to a modern photo, be uniquely appropriate for the article. (The photo captures Goetz at resentencing, a topic covered in the article. Further, in a modern photo of Goetz, he would be nearly double in age.) Hope that helps.--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

As a free content encyclopedia, the use of non-free content must meet all of the non-free content criteria. This image has multiple issues which I touched upon in the FFD. This image is from Getty Images, a commercial photo agency. Such images are licensed by Getty for use to illustrate news articles, and magazines, etc. That's how they make their money. As such, the use of a Getty image fails to meet WP:NFCC#2, the criterion about respect for commercial opportunity. The only exception would be if the photograph itself were the subject of significant sourced commentary. As well, to meet WP:NFCC#8, significant context needs to be established. This is usually shown with significant sourced commentary about the subject of the photo that establishes that the photo is needed to enhance a reader's understanding, and that its removal would be detrimental to that understanding. Copyright, and non-free content policy can be confusing. If you have questions about it, you can ask at Media Copyright Questions. -- Whpq (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realize commercial photo agencies are given special treatment relative to other non-free content. Thanks for the explainer!--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for taking so much time with your third-opinions on Talk:Sword of the Spirit. I've asked some follow-up questions, but overall, am grateful. Arbitrarily0 18:03, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely—I endeavored to respond to the follow-up—I had meant to address that in my original reply, but some last-minute rearrangement must have led me to accidentally remove it. I also responded to your other Q on the size of SoS. Hope that's helpful!--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 19:34, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Jodi Arias Case

I would like your advice before i make edits in the Travis Alexander page, if that is ok with you ? Jodiariasproject (talk) 13:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi! So, I'm absolutely happy to provide any helpful guidance or tips that I can. Still, I don't want to encourage you not to be bold—you have just as much of a right to edit the page as anyone else! And, of course, relative to you and other editors—I don't own the page; even if you and I think an edit is worth including, we might ultimately be overruled by a consensus of editors who conclude the opposite. (I should also say that I'm going on a little trip this weekend, so I won't be on Misplaced Pages much until next week.) But yes, I'm happy to give advice if you need any. --Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 13:21, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

thanks Jerome Jodiariasproject (talk) 02:24, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of 1984 New York City Subway shooting

The article 1984 New York City Subway shooting you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:1984 New York City Subway shooting for comments about the article, and Talk:1984 New York City Subway shooting/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Freedom4U -- Freedom4U (talk) 19:23, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

That's such great news! Thank you so much for the tireless work you put in to both (1) improving the article and (2) improving my understanding of Misplaced Pages policy and how a Good article should look/be.--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 01:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

2023 Nashville school shooting

As far as I can see, you made a change here, which was challenged by reversion here. You seem to misunderstand the consensus required sanction. Any change from the status quo that has been challenged requires affirmative consensus to reinstitute. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

This edit has been challenged by reversion. Please self-revert and wait for affirmative consensus before making the edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for the delay here. That "smaller" edit (combined with the one I made after it) was a reversion of an edit made earlier today. Here is the diff. So I was challenging a change the status quo. Agree I shouldn't have reverted as to the other two—I was thrown by the reverter's (1) revert of my revert (which shouldn't have happened) + (2) the mere invocation of a lack of consensus as the basis. (I followed up with the reverter, who said, amongst other issues, that I removed the "number of shots fired"—which ... unless I'm missing something, I definitely didn't. Regardless, if that reverter is actually challenging the edits I did make (except, of course, for the reversion), I'm happy to hold off!--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 17:56, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the clarification. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

No problem! And my fault entirely on the initial too-wide reversion; I should've just reverted the last edit.--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Quick support offer

I'm inches away from raising an ANI on the editor on the SpaceX discussion who you're trying to explain RS to. I'm fed up with their behavior and don't have the patience anymore. If you want help on sourcing for the article or anything, please let me know, but I'd advise you not to waste your time one someone who refuses to get it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi! So first, thanks for reaching out! And sorry it's been rough. Unfortunately, I'm also sorry to disappoint: since (1) this article has a lot of users editing it, and (2) the subject matter is about as far away from my comfort zone as Earth and the sun ... I really think jumping in myself wouldn't be any help to anyone. I wish I could be of use! I tried to list a few POV concerns and pair them with reliable sources, but that's really as far as I think I should go for now. When there are more secondary sources on the subject and if the activity level dies down, I might be able to jump in.--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 01:25, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I didn't mean to ask for anything from you, just to inform you that the editors on that talk were, to put it mildly, difficult. It's not my subject matter expertise, either, for what it's worth. I was very glad to see you sticking up for policy and doing your best to edit. Thank you. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:27, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Pshh—I got edit conflicted when I first tried to respond, and I didn't take enough notice of the fact that you changed the section title from "input request" to "support offer". My fault! Thanks again, I hope the difficulty eases soon--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh goodness I'm sorry haha! Hey, thanks again. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:31, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for summary and closure of discussion

Many thanks for your efforts in summarising the discussion on the Australia talk page about the term Anglophone. Meticulo (talk) 03:32, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course! Sorry I couldn't find a consensus—I just didn't think WP policy clearly favored one side's positions, but I suppose it's usually better to err on the side of no consensus.. --Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 19:11, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Please

Please revert your comment at ORN. I only linked to that discussion to make a side-comment about policy (trouts on me, it was completely off-topic w/r/t article improvement), not to "win" a dispute where I agree with you (that Ergzay didn't convince me yet). The "real" reason I asked you not to participate despite linking you to it, was because you'd already expressed very clear views on the subject, that SpaceX dispute between you and Ergzay was "front of mind", and it would inevitably lead to assimilation and "blurring the specifics" between both cases. It's improper to bring up that SpaceX dispute on an unrelated topic (yes, even hatted), and is bound to give off heat, rather than light, when it's one of the most nuanced issues I've seen at ORN (unlike that SpaceX "dispute", which again, we agree on). DFlhb (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello! I'm sure it was a ton to get through, so no worries if you didn't!, but the last paragraph I wrote was very much tailored to the U.S. Grant discussion, and I think the question of OR-re:accuracy should be considered across contexts, but I see your point as to "heat" :) —I removed the hatted discussion entirely. --Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Would you consider removing the first paragraph too? Stuff like the context of that discussion made me feel like weighing in here was appropriate is what I mean about assimilation, priming and "blurring the specifics". The paragraph "tailored to the U.S. Grant discussion" is the only one that really belongs in the Grant discussion. It was improper of me to link you there asking not to participate (I shouldn't have linked in the first place), but the right thing to do would still be not to participate. Again though, the full responsibility is on me. — DFlhb (talk) 19:11, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

So, I've tried to reach a compromise that I hope is suitable to you. I do think the appropriateness of OR is worth addressing, since that's a subject raised by several editors (both on that page and in the Grant and DYK item). And I think other contexts do show the potential issues with such an allowance. But I deleted enough info—including portion about you mentioning the debate to me on a different page—that I think no one would stumble upon the SpaceX page based on my comment, and I also tried to shorten the paragraph. (I think, in total, I halved it?)--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Just some general, respectful feedback: I was never worried about "being accused of canvassing"; that was me being self-deprecating. I was trying to hint at the fact that participating at all, regardless of hatting or trimming, was dragging one dispute between you and another editor, into a different, nuanced discussion that needed uninvolved fresh minds. The point of WP:CAN is to make sure discussion aren't contaminated by other discussions, and your disclaimer that I shouldn't be accused of canvassing missed that point (which I should have made explicit, but "hinting" was my dumb way of being polite). Please, the next time someone links you to a discussion and asks you not to participate, don't. I assumed, incorrectly, that this would be obvious. Learning experience for all, I guess. DFlhb (talk) 20:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I feel like you've alternated between "the full responsibility is on me" and "I assumed ... this would be obvious"! And, let's just be clear, the point of WP:CAN is that it's am improper way to influence the outcome of a discussion. If contamination were the concern, then bringing up that discussion on the SpaceX page would be a CAN issue from the perspective of the SpaceX page!

Listen, there are plenty of discussions and debates happening on Misplaced Pages, and people stumble upon ones that they're interested in in all sorts of different ways—sometimes it's through a general dispute page (which I do, actually look at, and you'll notice I've posted to that noticeboard before), sometimes it's far, far more random. I wasn't at first planning to participate in the discussion (although I am separately interested in historical study of presidents!), but, as my concerns with OR re: accuracy became more pronounced, I took more interest and took a deeper look, and I found I had something to contribute.

If you do take this as a learning experience, I hope you take away that it's not your job nor your place to police what people enter what discussions. And if you, for whatever reason, can't stop yourself from thinking that you do have a responsibility to police discussions that people might find through you, then you should probably just not mention those discussions, because, "Hey! Here's a debate you might be interested in and have thoughts on! ... Now, don't participate because I don't trust you to have thoughts on this specific debate!" is a pretty weird thing to say. --Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 20:17, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Use of Good-faith edit label

I'm not a super experienced Misplaced Pages editor, but in previous encounters with the Good faith edit label I noticed it was given for obviously-incorrect edits that were done in good faith. Because this does not seem to be the case for the SpaceX Starship incident I suggest you edit your post, so as not give a false impression to other editors.--Gciriani (talk) 00:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Really? I've always seen it as an acknowledgment that the other editor was editing in good faith even though you're considering a reversion. If you take offense to it, I'll absolutely remove it!--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 12:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Repeating my similar comments in several discussions

Hi. I come in peace. I just wanted to say that I have been writing articles at WP since 2006 -- hundreds of new articles, and thousands of greatly expanded articles, many of which became GAs, FAs, or maybe just B or C class. In many (most?) of them, I added infoboxes! When I have decided that an article should *not* have an infobox, it is usually for the reasons that I have stated previously: that an proposed infobox would be repetitive, misleading, distracting, etc. Over the years, quite a few of those articles have been the subject of infobox discussions. Since my reasons for not including IBs in the first place were usually similar, when an infobox discussion has arisen, my arguments against them have been similar. I'm not sure what is wrong with that. In every case where I have opposed adding an infobox, it is because I do not think it helps the article, or actively hurts the article. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:46, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi! Yeah I've seen a lot of your work—I meant to give you a shoutout in one of my replies; sorry if I neglected to do that! I definitely know you're a great writer and contributor—my point about the repetition wasn't that what you were saying wasn't accurate or fair, it was only that I don't think the article-by-article approach is really working (and your critique is far more substantive and tailored than most)--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 00:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't want any shout-outs, but I think that most people reading what you wrote would interpret it as saying that what I wrote was not valid because it was similar from one discussion to the next. That's what I thought you meant. Regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:23, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Reagan AIDS section

I think your reverted edits to the AIDS section on the Reagan article would be great to put on the article on his presidency. Jaydenwithay (talk) 21:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me! You're definitely welcome to add it. I had missed that that was reverted, but I've now re-added most of it. The criticism—that Reagan admin officials shouldn't be attributed to Reagan, really only applies to the press secretary story. (Reagan, himself, didn't mention AIDS for a long period of time, and he did propose the budget, even if someone else drafted it ... that's not a real distinction to draw)--Jerome Frank Disciple (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

1RR violation at Libs of TikTok

Libs of TikTok is under a 1 revert per 24 hour restriction. You reverted here, here, and here. Your last edit also removed and changed a significant amount of material that was the topic of those reverts. You need to self-revert and discuss this on the talk page. There is WP:NODEADLINE, so you can wait until there is consensus on the talk page for rewrites and reverts. Making four changes away from the status quo in under 24 hours is not acceptable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:21, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I'm sorry—did you miss the many messages on the talk page I started? Currently, there are four sections on the talk page ... all of which were started by me. The trim to the hospital section was discussed in Talk:Libs of TikTok#Restructure, and the only responding user said, "I would support reducing the hospital section of redundancy while being careful not to remove relevant information". It seems a little strange to ignore the many, many messages I've left and then say I haven't gotten consensus ... because I didn't get approval from the editors not participating? Either way, I understand many feel passionate about LibsofTikTok even if they're not closely watching the talk page; I've self reverted and pinged all the most recent editors to hopefully allow input and improve the article.

Also, in terms of the status quo and the reverts—I did challenge a change to the status quo and brought it up on the talk page. That second edit might be a reversion in the technical sense, though I admit I didn't think of it as one: the prior editor moved the content to the first paragraph, said the edit summary it should be in the first paragraph, and also made one wording change ... I kept the content in the first paragraph, added other content to that first paragraph and undid the wording change. That said, you're certainly right about the 1R rule—I missed that, and next time I'll ask them to self revert.--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

It's good that you had started discussions on the talk page, however you need to wait for consensus rather than trying another edit on the same material after it was reverted back to the status quo. Also, after multiple reverts in 24 hours is not the time to try a radical overhaul of the same material. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough! Apologies—I had mentioned overhauling that material on the talk page a few times, and it had been on my to-do list for a few days (just waiting till I had the motivation to follow through with it)—I figured if there was a dispute about the content (which, based on the tag and the response on the talk page, I assumed everyone agreed was over detailed), it would make more sense to have that discussion after the trim rather than before.--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:47, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

A handy way to present large changes like that for discussion is to make the edit, then revert with an edit summary stating that you made the edit to provide an example for what you think should be done. That allows others to view the diff and review the exact changes. That is functionally what happened in this situation as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:50, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll definitely keep that in mind! I was probably a bit too emboldened by my prior edits, which I was sure to very carefully detail on the talk page (and I was trying not to do too much in a single day, hence the many sections I started being like "here's what I did today") and which didn't get a negative response (should I go back and revert those edits as well? absolutely fine doing that if you think it's called for)--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

You can leave them, I'm just trying to warn you that you're editing near quicksand so you need to be aware of the restrictions. You've been editing in WP:CTOP areas, so you need to be very careful. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Fair warning! Noted.--Jerome Frank Disciple 16:42, 5 May 2023 (UTC)