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info removal discussion

Counterpunch.org article

I believe it is[REDACTED] policy that you have to state a reason to remove cited info on the talk page first (you have to specifically state exactly why it wasn't NPOV and why it shouldn't be allowed in a bio, it is a response to the 9/11 essay criticism brouhaha so very relevant, and I should also note that professor Emma Perez took over as chairperson of the CU ethnic studies department after Churchill resigned that post, so her opinion is even more relevant). If it's written in POV fashion then we should correct that rather than delete? I look forward to your explanation on the talk page. zen master T 23:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This above comment was placed on my Talk page instead of being placed on this Talk page, as I believe it should have been. If Zen-master had been participating in the Talk page conversation all along then he would been privy to the discussion--but he has not been.--Keetoowah 00:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed a reference to the opinion of another University of Colorado professor. Zen-master has not been participating in the Talk page discussion however he reverted my revert and told me to participate in the Talk page discussion--I found that quite bold. Following is why I reverted him. I have attempted to put in comments of well-respected American Indians and experts by well-respected experts on American Indian history, language and culture and those comments have been deleted by other editors on the ground that those comments are either: 1. redundant or 2. off-topic. Now, if the long, long list of well respected American Indian experts that crticized are going to put taken out of the article because the pro-WC editors believe that the comments are redundant and/or off-topic (Examples: 1. Jodi Rave, reporter from Montana, her own personal experience of retailation by WC was removed and 2. Editors of Indian Country Today outlining the criticism of WC fake Indian heritage), then adding comments of a pro-WC supporters--from flaming partisan Web sites like Counterpunch.org--going forward will be removed--unless, of course, we can start putting in each and every example of where Churchill has physically assaulted people that disagreed with him or he has academically retaliated, or some other type of horrid retaliation.--Keetoowah 00:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, first of all you seem to be misdirecting the issue in terms of counterpunch.org being a "POV website", that essay was written exclusively by a colleague of Ward Churchill's at CU so how is the location of the article relevant? Secondly, you seem to mention at length "American Indian experts" without saying much of anything. How does that relate to the paragraph I added that you removed? What previous editors have done to this article may also have been wrong, but I believe you have removed valid, factually cited information in a relevant article. Please succinctly list your exact reasons for the removal and let's please work together from here forward to bring the article inline with true[REDACTED] policy. zen master T 00:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Misdirection. I don't think so. If you want to talk about misdirection, instead of the Counterpunch.org article, then we can. You went to my Talk page and told me to explain on the WC talk page why I did what I did--when you have never been here before. Also, when I told you to quit commenting on my talk page and to comment over here on the WC talk page the first thing that you did was take all of the discussion on the WC talk page and archives it so it can't be seen. Now that's misdirection. If you had been involved in the WC discussion before then you would be aware of the personal, relavant comments and experience of a Mandan Indian named Jodi Rave. This discussion is in the archives. Rave was once a student of WC at UC years ago. She straight forwardly questions WC false, lying, horrid claims of being an Indian and WC lowered her grade from an A to a D. She did her research and he retaliated. She is now a newspaper reporter for a newspaper in Montana and her story has been outlined in the Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News and she has written about the experience in her Montana paper. Her personal experience, which is backed up with facts and not just opinion, was taken out of this article. Now if you were ever involved in the talk page you would know this story. Now the Rave story is out and I'm more than willing to see the comments of the prof who replaced WC, but the Rave story needs to go in and all of the other stories where WC has either physically abused Indians or spit on Indians or somehow or another retaliated against Indians that dare question the fake Indian heritage of WC. Do your homework before you lecture others zen master. --Keetoowah 00:41, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Any previous discussion can not possibly be a justification for removing what appearss to be validly cited, factual new information, can it? If you have a problem with the wording then we can modify it, rather than deleting it entirely. I archived the old discussion because you placed this new section at the very top as opposed to the bottom which is the general talk page practice (it seemed to me your intent might be to hide this discussion?). I also only posted on your talk page once, and then made a copy edit. The treatment of Indians and previous talk page discussion is irrelevant to the issue of why you removed factually cited relevant new information, please come back to just that issue. To state thing more directly, you have yet to list any valid specific reason why you removed the Emma Perez essay info and in my opinion you have even failed to present an argument that can be debated logically. I will give you one more chance to defend your action before I create an RFC on this issue. zen master T 01:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have reinserted the content in question as I believe that it presents a relevant viewpoint in an accurate and neutral fashion. Keetowah, please do not use the cry of "NPOV" as an excuse for censorship of viewpoints you do not agree with. Kelly Martin 01:18, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dear zen master & Kelly Martin: From the tone of each of your posts it is clear that you both have a brow-beating attitude. It is unpleasant, unwanted and unacceptable. Try to maintain a professional attitude. I don't mind the information from the professor being placed in the article. I only am making the point that Misplaced Pages should err on the side placing more information in an article than not enough. So fine. By all means keep the information in the article. Now, the Jodi Rave information WILL go back into the article and all other relavant documented criticisms of WC that are available to be placed in the article will be placed in the article. Don't censor the viewpoint of Jodi Rave and others--like Vajero did--and I won't, as Kelly Martin so dogmatically put it, censor the critics of the fake Indian either.----Keetoowah 03:26, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Keetoowah, please refrain from personal insults. I have never proposed censoring anybody's viewpoints. As far as I am concerned, if the Jodi Rave comments you allude to are documentable, then they're relevant and should be included in the article so long as they can be phrased in a neutral manner. I would advise you to refrain from referring to Churchill as "the fake Indian", however, as talk in this manner is strongly suggestive of bias, and tends to lead others to question your neutrality as an editor. If you wish to be taken seriously here, you should act appropriately. I would advise you to try harder not to be so antagonistic in your dealings with other editors. I do not have a dog in this fight; I am not your "enemy". Kelly Martin 03:39, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity

It was written in the ethnicity portion of Churchill's article: "To date no one has specifically accused Ward Churchill of lying about his ancestry." Is such a statement true? I think many many people have specifically accused Ward Churchill of lying about his ancestry. While I agree none of these allegations have been proven, they were definitely made. I am suspecting what the writer meant was no formal allegations have been made against Ward Churchill by the University of Colorado regarding his ethnicity.

Very subtle distinction there. If someone is directly claiming that Ward Churchill lied then we should cite that specifically (but slander comes to mind). All the citations that I've seen in the article are basically arguing since he's not full blooded (or at least 1/4th blooded) Native American he should be forced to resign as professor. Ward Churchall says he always claimed he was less than 1/4th Native American. Such a controversy should not damage the credibility of a professor unless the person specifically lied about his ancestry. Additionally, no one should be forced to prove ancestry for a job (which would likely be impossible anyway except maybe genetic testing). The critics seem to be trying to bash Ward Churchill with the ethnicity thing in a very sneaky round about way. zen master T 22:53, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There have been hundreds of people who have accused Churchill lying about his ethnicity. There are tons of examples in the articles cited at the bottom of the article. There is no need to relive this argument.-----Keetoowah 02:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You fail to note the distinction, they aren't saying he's lying, they are saying he shouldn't be a Native American activist because he's not "really" Native American. To show someone has lied you have to first show a statment of theirs that is later determined to have been false. Currently it's only pundits bashing Ward Churchill for things and insinuating he should be fired if he lied about his ethnicity. He admits he is less than 1/4th Native American so all the tribes stating he does not belong proves nothing, what is your point? I will change the sentence in question to "To date no one has offered evidence of Ward Churchill lying about his ethnicity". It's obvious the right wing propoganda machine chose Ward Churchill because they have a lot of dirt on him. zen master T 04:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Plenty of people have stated out and out that he is lying. . Now your sentence is not backed up by any citation whatsoever. It is your opinion. Since it is just your opinion it is not NPOV. It will be removed until you find a source or citation that state that exact sentence other than just you a Misplaced Pages editor. It is one sentence essay by you and it violates the Misplaced Pages policy of being neutral. You have reached a conclusion. That is not your job.-----Keetoowah 14:52, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's obvious to me that this is an issue which is going to be the subject of persistent dispute. Can we all agree that the article should reflect that some people believe that Churchill misrepresented his ancestry to Colorado University and that such misrepresentation, if proven, may be grounds for termination of his employment relationship? I think we need to avoid using the loaded term "lied". I don't think any of us are privy to the exact nature of the representations Churchill made to CU, and I think we should wait for the university to complete its investigation before making any positive claim on the matter. I would once again remind those editing this article that Misplaced Pages is not a forum for either trashing or rehabilitating someone else's reputation. Kelly Martin 16:40, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

While I agree that the article needs to mention the controversy around his ethnic background, we shouldn't step into the realm of speculation as to whether this may be grounds for his termination. Once these things have been determined by those concerned, then we address it. -- Viajero 15:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is not an area of "speculation." It is NOT speculation that CU is looking at the ethnicity issue as a issue to dismiss him. That is a fact. There are dozens of newspaper articles confirming that fact. No we don't wait until the until "these things have been determined." We know that the issue is one of the issues being looked so we put it in the article.

The article states: Churchill was hired by the University of Colorado partly because of ethnic background, and there is some speculation that he might be fired should he fail to prove his ethnicity. While the reference provided in that paragraph confirms the speculation part, it does support the Churchill was hired by the University of Colorado partly because of ethnic background. Is there any evidence (e.g, hiring committee deliberations) which supports the assertion that ethnicity was a factor in his hiring? While Affirmative Action allows ethnicity to be taken into account in hiring decisions, but it does not allow ethnic quotas - the position could not have been open only to any single ethnic group. Unless some sort of documentation can be provided for this part of the statement, it should not be stated as a fact. Guettarda 17:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I removed the sentence, "Others point out ethnicity is not generally a requirement to be a professor of a certain department as there are many ethnic studies professors that do not have the corresponding ethnicity." This sentence was removed because:

1. It is the opinion of Misplaced Pages editor. It is not backed up by a citation to a non-Misplaced Pages source, therefore, it is non-NPOV. It is basically a one sentence essay expressing a defense of Churchill. Provide a citation for the sentence and it perfectly acceptable, but there is NOT one provided.

2. It uses the weasel word "others point out" to make it look like someone outside of Misplaced Pages stated this and since there is no outside source cited I can only conclude that it is the opinion of the Misplaced Pages editor that put it there.

3. It makes the implication that the clain against Churchill go back to whether he an Ethnic Studies professor without being a minority. The issue is much larger than that concerning the implications of simply not being truthful about who you are.

4. It implies that somebody made the statement that to be an ethnics studies professor someone has to be a minority. No one has state that. Anyone can be an ethnic studies professor--minority or non-mionority. It is the fabrication that is the issue.-----Keetoowah 15:20, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I cleaned up the problem I had with that section by correcting the sentence that stated he could be fired if he doesn't prove his ancestry, I do not believe that is true and all the citations I've seem to agree, I changed that to he could be fired if it is proved he lied about his ancestry. Two sentences later the article already stated "misrepresenting a claim of indian heritage could be construed as fraud" so that related point was already covered. Is it possible he believed he is of Native American heritage but is unable to prove it? Should someone have to prove their ancestry to get a job? In my opinion, no and that would likely violate all sorts of laws. The only thing that could resolve the ethnicity dispute might be a genetic test which I think would be a ridiculous thing to require of a professor. Additionally, it is in fact a true statement that many ethnic studies professors do not have the corresponding ethnicity, your citation request for something obviously true reveals your apparent motive regarding this article. zen master T 22:19, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your argument has a logical fallacy. So what? There are non-Indian teaching about Indian issues. That fact does not prove what my motives are. Just in case you haven't got it yet: my motive is that Churchill is a fake Indian and he is a fraud and he steals jobs from real Indians. That is my motivation. What is you motivation to defend the fraud? If can't prove it then he should run around and state it. It is an easy thing to prove. If your parents are Indian then you are Indian. No big deal. What is your motivation? You have questioned my motivation. What is your motivation to defend the fraud?-----Keetoowah 19:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that his ethnicity was a factor in his hiring? Unless it can be substantiated, that statement should not be in the article. Misrepresentation of your ethnicity could be construed as fraud, but I think it would come down to whether you believe it to be true. So I would suspect that there would have to be evidence that he intentionally misrepresented his ethnicity (assuming, of course, that he did). As for proof one way or the other, genetic testing wouldn't be able to prove things conclusively one way or the other. The only proof would be historical documentation. Guettarda 22:29, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe he listed his ethnicity as part Native American or Native American directly to get on some affirmative action program that got him the initial job as associate professor or having to do with a loan or something (it's in one of the citations). I agree that is a far cry from fraud even if he can't prove the Native American heritage. Genetic testing is more conclusive than historical documents which can be faked, it would be conclusive if genetic testing did prove he's at least distantly related to current day Native Americans. zen master T 22:50, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't doubt that he might have done that. The problem is, the article states that this had a role in his being hired...states it as a fact. Without seeing the notes of the search committee, there is no way to establish this as a fact. It's speculation. Genetic testing cannot establish anything with certainty. There is not American Indian gene that everyone with more than a certain quantum of blood has, and everyone without it lacks. There are statistical tools which can speak to likelihood, but they cannot say anything with certainty. Guettarda 22:58, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree any such sentences in the article should be cleaned up. There may be some confusion in that his Native American heritage played no role in his becoming a tenured professor. I believe genetic testing has the ability to prove someone is a distant cousin (2nd or 3rd cousins) of someone else. In Ward Churchill's case if this someone else is a full blooded Native American then it proves he has at least some Native American heritage. zen master T 23:10, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mitochondrial DNA can show shared female ancestry, Y-chromosomes can show shared male ancestry, but they only go mother to daughter and father to son (so I share neither with my father's sisters' children and my mother's brother's son). I share Y chromosomes with my father's brother's son, and some of my father's cousin's sons. I share mt DNA with my mother's siblings, her sister's children, etc. Microsatellites can show relatedness between specific people, but they don't have to. Mostly you can look at probabilities - what proportion of your genes do you share with such-and-such a group. But you might inherit none of the characteristic genes and still have the ancestry. Native Americans have mixed extensively with white Americans. Since it's a matter of chance what genes you inherit, it would be very difficult to say unequivocably that you had or did not have certain ancestry based on your genetics. Genetic testing could demonstrate that he had NA ancestry (or that it was highly likely that he did)...the problem is disproving that he did. Guettarda 23:33, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, you obviously know more about DNA testing than I do. Were you going to be the one that cleaned up the sentence that errantly states as a fact his ethnicity played a direct role in his hiring? zen master T 23:51, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're right, I should quit talking and do something, huh? :) Guettarda 00:03, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This recent report from the university should give you closure for this section (though I doubt that the controversy will end soon). "Report on Conclusion of Preliminary Review in the Matter of Professor Ward Churchill" . -- Dan O. 16:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, no, it doesn't. It outlines some of the complaints and some of the evidence, but does not make a final conclusion, especially in the area of ethnicity. Guettarda 19:44, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have been following the Churchill controversy and have some of the documents, or their locations. A copy of an e-mail concerning the Churchill hiring decision states that it is a positive factor in the hiring decision (increasing cultural diversity on campus). The e-mail can be accessed at http://www.khow.com/img/cu-email-2.html

Whosear

Sorry, I'm just now learning how to use these comments. On the point in contention: the hired-as-an-Indian question has been mooted by the three-member review committee, wherein they said "The question about Professor Churchill's employment application must be considered closed as a result of this ten-year old review." What remains for the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct to decide is--in the words of that same three-member committee--"whether Professor Churchill has attempted to gain a scholarly voice, credibility, and an audience for his scholarship by wrongfully asserting that he is an Indian."

jwpaine

Leroy

So does the L. stand for Leroy, or not?

No, it stands for LeRoy; he is named after his paternal grandfather, Ward LeRoy Churchill. From an extensive article in the Rocky Mountain News, March 26, 2005. Fred Bauder 16:22, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Freedom of Speech and Academic Freedom

Calicocat writes: I maintain the issues of Freedom of Speech and Academic Freedom are cental to the Ward Churchill controversy and at the root of this article's content. Others fought hard to have these issues removed, a manifestation, perhaps, of the extant fight againt freedom of speech and academic freedom itself. It was falsely asserted that inclusion of this material was an "essay," when in fact it was a well crafted, highly germane and sourced section, researched and added to focus on these critical issues. In looking at this article again, and having followed the news on Churchill, I still am of the opinion that these issues are perhaps the most materially significant to understanding the controversy surrounding Churchill, certainly at least equal to his disputed ethnicity. I am still of the opinion this material would have added valuable information to the article -- even including the break in style of adding the two free links within quoted text was warranted and would have added richness to the overall article.

When a man's life is threatened, when his livelihood is attacked (as is the case with Churchill); when a venerable institution like Hamilton is theatened with violence, it is appropriate to devote some space in the article to what the institution involved said about it, to read the references contained in Hamilton's statment, and to examin other views on the subject.

It was my intention to add more views and develop this section, but after its removal I lost interest and was "fired" as an editor on this article. As it stands these hub issues are inadequately reduced to but one line in the article, but do not deserve to be given such short shrift. As others have said on these talk pages, the only really interesting thing about Churchill is this essay controvery, cental to that are the issues of Freedom of Speech and academic freedom. Therefore, I'm placing the original section here, between lines, so it may be considered by any who might take interest in the real heart of Churchill controversy. See below: (section removed from article. Lines added to demark removed material; some slight editing to original draft)Calicocat 10:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Section Heading: Freedom of Speech/Academic Freedom

Churchill's role as an academic, combined with the public controversy over his 9/11 essay have seen calls for his censure, dismissal from his position, prosection as a traitor and theats against his life (as well as credible threats of violence against Hamilton College). These have raised serious issues related to academic freedom and freedom of speech.

On March 3, 2005, Hamilton College, a private instituion, released a statement saying:

"It is...important to remember that, however offensive or even deplorable Churchill's remarks about 9/11 may have been, those remarks were by currently recognized legal standards neither unlawful nor an incitement to violence. However hateful, they were essentially political speech of the kind that, as part of a sound liberal education, students must learn to confront intellectually and, if so inclined, to dispute. The only illegal acts in this situation were the threats of violence received by the College. Unfortunately, those threats imposed a lawless veto on the normal process of civil discourse and open debate on the campus and made it impossible to go forward with a previously scheduled program."

The Hamilton College statment goes on saying:

"Two classic statements of these guiding constitutional principles provide eloquent support for Hamilton's decision to defend academic freedom in the Ward Churchill controversy.

"Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once wisely observed: "If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought, not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate."

"On another occasion, famously reasoned: "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."

• A Rocky Mountain News editorial editoral dated March 11, 2005 by Rodney Muth argues that "In our culture, it is through free exchanges, even clashes, of ideas that intellectual progress is made, knowledge is advanced, wisdom is achieved and truth revealed. As many commentators have pointed out, if Churchill keeps his job it will be because protecting speech that we dislike is the price we must pay to protect all speech."

• Another commentator, Jon Caldara in a February 27, 2005 editorial from the Independence Institute, argued that Churchill takes a double-standard on the First Amendment: "Churchill's First Amendment double standard is the norm in higher education. Case in point is the outrageous statements made this week by Colorado University President Betsy Hoffman. The same Betsy Hoffman who suspended (CU Professor) Gary Barnett for his speech said state legislators and elected officials should stop talking about the Churchill affair."

• "A February 15, 2005 Capital Magainze editoral, "Professor Ward Churchill, The First Amendment and Free Speech on Campus," by Onkar Ghate puts the question is stirctly economic terms, but still argues against censorship, "Only private universities can ensure that every citizen's freedom of speech is respected." Echoing Colorado Gov. Bill Owens who, in calling for Churchill’s resignation, said taxpayers should not have to subsidize Churchill’s 'outrageous and insupportable' views. The editorial argues, "To force another person to support ideas he opposes violates his freedom of speech." The audtor is a resident fellow at the Ayn Rand Institute. Capital Magazine advises the views of that author do not necessarily represent those of the magainze.

(end section removed)Calicocat 10:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

911focus: which demos?

User:911focus, in the text you just added

whom he derides for trying to prevent window breaking and other minor acts of outrage at the demonstrations which he sardonically derides as mere "sign-waving".

to which demonstrations is Churchill referring? This is ambiguous. -- 21:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Who wrote this question? Sign your name.----Keetoowah 13:22, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dialog from User talk:Fred_Bauder

(copied here, from User talk:Fred_Bauder)

Ward Churchill is Not An Indian

I am an enrolled member of Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and I used to work for the BIA. I added into the article the written opinions of people that have researched Churchill's Indian ancestry and 99% of these Indian folks point out that Churchill has not provided the basic information required to prove that he is an Indian. I put it up last night and it much of it was taken down early this morning. It was information where I provided sources for the comments. I understand that what I wrote can and should be edited. But taking out information that provides sources and citations seems to be an attempt to stifle the information. Dear Fred Bauder, it IS fair to ask if Churchill really is an Indian. He is taking away from actual Indian people the ability to speak for themselves. He has build his whole career on being someone who has experienced the oppression of a minority culture. It is similar to a white middle class Protestant person from Idaho was writing books about himself being a Jew in Hitler's Germany. And don't even say that I just made a inaccurate analogy because Churchill himself compares and uses Hitler and Nazi analogies. I'm sure that is how you learned about him in the first place because he made this most recent comment about 9/11 victims are all "Eichmann's." Look, providing information about whether you are an Indian or not should not be that difficult. Why? You have Indian parents. It is simple as that. Even if you don't have brothers and sisters then you have Indian parents and your parents have brothers and sisters. Correct? Why doesn't anyone in Indian Country know any of these people? This is NOT a cheap shot as you indicated above. It goes to the heart of who he claims that he is. As Suzan Harjo pointed out: Churchill is taking jobs and speaking engagements from real actual Indians and building a whole career on it. Those jobs and speaking engagements should go to actual Indian. Also, Harjo made the point that Churchill's comments are having a backlash and where is that backlash going? On to Indian Country. Look, no one believes that he should not have the right to say what he wants. We all believe in the First Amendment even if it is difficult speech. However, just don't run around and claim that you are an Indian when you aren't and that you personally have been oppressed. Let's say that I am a white person that lives in Kentucky and I attend a Baptist church and my parents came the United States from South Africa, do you really believe that I could run around and write books on Irish experience of oppression in Belfast? No. But that is what he is doing. And you are calling it a cheap shot. It is not a cheap shot. It goes to who and what he is. He is what we call in Indian Country a Wannabee. There is a whole tribe of Indians called the Wannabee Indians and he is the Chief. The people that making the complaints about his fake Indian heritage are not conservatives by any stretch of the imagination either: Suzan Harjo (worked for Bill Clinton), Dennis Banks (Founder of the American Indian Movement), etc. He can say wherever he wants about 9/11 or America, but he shouldn't lie and claim that he is an Indian when he isn't. And schools like the Univ of Colorado should do a better job of doing there homework when they hire a someone and put out to the world that he is an Indian because he isn't.----Keetoowah 17:45, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry that your edits were removed from the article. I did not remove them, although I did think about how to edit that material. I will look further at what you wrote on my talk page when I get a chance. I am in agreement with your distaste at Ward Churchill putting himself forth as a spokesman for the Native community but even more at those who have accepted him as a spokesman, like the people at the University of Colorado who put him on a fast tenure track, bypassing others, most of whom were not even interviewed. However, judging from his appearance I do think he probably has some Native American ancestory and feel we should take his word for it. The real issues have to do with his actions and ideas. Fred Bauder 18:11, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Fred, this quote of yours "However, judging from his appearance I do think he probably has some Native American ancestory" is the epitome of racial stereotyping. I am part Native American (no joke) and I am extremely shocked you would say this. BTW: I was on your talk page just now to inquire why you did not answer the email I sent to you a few days ago at "fredbaud@ctelco.net". Is that not your email address? I was attempting to contact you from the "wikien-l" mailing list archive pages of April, 2005. Also, my email was on the subject of a "user block" and I see that you did comment about a different "block" to another user . Why did you not answer my email about a "block"? Suffice it to say, while my "block" question has been resolved elsewise, I am still interested to hear back from you. I thought you and I were in good standing, dialog-wise. Your no-reply surprised me. Rex071404 08:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reponse to Rex071404

User:Rex071404 wrote above:

this quote of yours "However, judging from his appearance I do think he probably has some Native American ancestory" is the epitome of racial stereotyping. I am part Native American (no joke) and I am extremely shocked you would say this.

Rex071404 also brought this matter up on my talk page, and I am taking the liberty of replying here. In my understanding of the term, "racial stereotyping" has a strong perjorative component. A notorious example would be the practice by some police departments of stopping black drivers more frequently than white ones, the assumption being that blacks are more likely to be engaged in illegal activities (or whatever). I don't think Fred was being perjorative with that comment; it was a simple observation. While we can argue whether Fred is correct, I don't think we can claim he was being offensive. After all, we all carry traces of our ethnic background in our faces. -- Viajero 10:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What Viajero refers to is racial profiling. No one is suggesting that Fred is doing that. However, on this Wiki, there is a redirect from Racial stereotype to Ethnic stereotype and on that page, one finds this definition "...an overly-simplified representation of the typical characteristics of members of an ethnic group...". This I feel, is what Fred is suggesting; that somehow Ward Churchill has facial features which typify him to be Native American. Implicit in such a suggestion, is that Fred could elucidate for us what facial features he sees in Mr. Churchill that allows him to assert (as he did) "However, judging from his appearance I do think he probably has some Native American ancestory. Fred is not a forensic sketch artist with a background in human anthropology. And since he's not, his obervations about Mr. Churchill's appearence can only be coming from a layman's obervations. That being the case, I'd rather Fred keep his opinions about personal appearance to himself. And I'd also like him to recognize that his limited personal knowledge about human appearances does not qualify him to draw inferences about a person's race (or ethnicity). Certainly skilled and trained observers are able to see general patterns of appearance among large groups of persons with similar heredity, but such observations ought only be made in the context of scientific study - not for pigeonholing people in our minds 'he looks like an Injun to me'... Granted, Fred did not phrase his statement that way, but this is the message I took from him. Rex071404 13:07, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ward Churchill / Fred Bauder

While discussing Ward Churchill recently on his personal talk page, Fred Bauder said this: "However, judging from his appearance I do think he probably has some Native American ancestory".. I am part Native American (Mi'kmaq aka Micmac), most certainly more so than Mr. Churchill and I don't like to be judged by my appearance. I think Bauder's comments are offensive racial stereotyping. I think he ought to apologize and have basically said as much on his talk page. What do you think? Rex071404 08:38, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with your comments about NOT judging people based upon their looks. I think that is completely stupid way to decide if someone is an Indian or not. However, I don't think that we should engage in the actions of forcing people to apologize for stupid comments. It stifles Free Speech and it makes martyers out of people like Ward Churchcill. Churchill is a complete and total fraud and he is being defended by a bunch of people that think they are doing the right thing. These are people that has a tunnel vision view of the world. They believe that if someone is in an academic environment then no one has a right to question their authority. It is blind, stupid, brain-washed, knee-jerk liberalism, but it is their right. You read his comments and you got it. You knew instinctively that the comment was stupid and wrong-headed, but the folks that blindly support Churchill when he lies about his Indian heritage truly believe that they are doing the right thing. You and I know that to be stupid, but we can only argue against their point of view--not force them into false apologizes, etc. Even if the Fred Bauder or the other Churchill apologists actually came clean and admitted that they are blindly defending Churchill on the fake Indian issue because they simply want to defend him because he is spouting off anti-America rhetoric, it wouldn't matter because we know that any apology would be as fake as Churchill. Just drop it and point out to them that no one in Indian Country really believes Churchill to be an Indian--except liberal, white folks.-----Keetoowah 13:20, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well said. Still, I feel that perhaps Fred is smart enough to concede on the stereotype concerns. If he does, it undercuts his support for the "evidence" he sees which he uses to infer that his suppositions about Mr. Churchill's supposed heritage are somehow valid. Rex071404 13:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:Fred_Bauder):

Dear Rex: Please keep in mind that Viajero is one of the knee-jerk defenders of the fake Indian. He is not ever going to agree with your comments concerning Fred's comments, so really don't waste your time. You know that people should not be judged by their looks, but Viajero has a political agenda to work and he wants to us Misplaced Pages to further that political agenda and he sure as heck isn't going to let some Indian get the way of that political agenda.-----Keetoowah 13:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Message received. Rex071404 13:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One last thing, they will circle the wagons, so to speak, when one Indian gets out of line. Misplaced Pages has a Star Chamber where they invite people to throw stones at folks who don't go along with their agenda. Viajero is part of that group. He will go out and gather together his pack of thugs to beat you into submission. So don't even think about making an issue of Churchill's fake Indian-ness. These folks--Viajero, ZenMaster, etc--don't like criticism of their anti-America hero--even if it is true, like the fact that he is complete and totally fake Indian. Of course, if you do decide to pull a Custer on them, I will be there right along with you.-----Keetoowah 14:08, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Discussions like these don't belong here; they belong on user talk pages or in private email. This page is to discuss our article on Ward Churchill. -- Viajero 14:34, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See what I mean? Rex. Viajero is going to one of buddies and they are going to commence a Star Chamber proceeding or they are going to a sympathetic Admin who will have us blocked or banned, etc. So he can continue to portary Churchill as an Indian--even though Churchill isn't one. See you dared to question the authority of the ruling know it alls. Of course a double standard applies. Of course, they can make comments like, "I think he looks like an Indian." But you aren't allowed question those comments--just comments that don't agree with Viajero, Fred or ZenMaster, and the rest of Churchill's apologists.-----Keetoowah 15:24, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My comment on Ward Churchill's appearance was based on his resemblance to some of my close relatives (my mother and grandmother) whom I know to be partly Native American. Fred Bauder 15:39, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:Rex071404):

It would have been less prone to misinterpretation, had you said that to begin with. Still, you would never say that someone "has a big nose" or "thick lips" and then suggest that they are this or that, would you? Why then try to divine Churchill's geneology from his appearance? And by doing that, aren't you weighing your edits with your personal opinion? And if so, that's truly POV. The public facts do not reasonably support any assertions or suppositions about Churchill actually being a Native American (not in any true sense). That being the case, I frankly am unmoved that you "feel we should take his word for it" based on your personal opinion of his appearance. I think Fred, as an attorney, you ought to be able to see the error of your logic here. Your personal feelings are not one of the public facts which we can rest our editorial standards on. Indeed, we've already established that such methods are not the rule here - as evidenced by the fierce way my personal feelings are scrubbed by others from articles such as John Kerry. Also, as evidence by the blocking of my edits to Dedham, Massachusetts, it's not enough that an individual editor personally "know" or "feel" something to be true. Rather, it must be backed up by public fact sources that other editors will accept. I have two problems with using your "feelings" as a source: a) feelings are subject to change and therefore are not reliable as an ongoing fact referrence and b) I am repulsed by the notion we ought to judge people by appearance. That said, thanks for answering about Ward Churchill. But, I am still curious, why did you not answer my email? And why do you stand mute on that topic in this reply to me? Rex071404 15:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I did say that to begin with and only on the talk page. As to your mail, I do not recall a particular message to me. Fred Bauder 16:09, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Did say what? Rex071404 16:20, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A New Look at Ward Churchill, Rich White Guy

Ward Churchill is white. He all but admits it himself. For a "native American" activist, this is a central and crucial fact that deserves prominence in this article.

Ward Churchill would not be noteworthy at all except for his remarks about the victims of 9/11 which deserve the highest prominence. They are very confronting views, and while I don't agree with them, deserve to be prominently displayed with little editorializing.

Ward Churchill has a checkered academic history with many claims of plagiarism that would have brought down others. His ethics violations must also be detailed.

Carlshooters 18:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)