Talk:Six-Day War - Misplaced Pages

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Egyptian OOB

> The Egyptian forces consisted of seven divisions: four armoured, two infantry, and one mechanized infantry.

This does not agree with (https://en.wikipedia.org/Order_of_battle_for_the_Six-Day_War#Egyptian_Army) and (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/1967_Six_Day_War_-_conquest_of_Sinai_5-6_June.jpg).

OOB article suggests that it's backwards (four infantry, two armored, one mechanized):

2nd Infantry Division – Maj. Gen. Sadi Naguib
3rd Infantry Division – Maj. Gen. Osman Nasser
7th Infantry Division – Maj. Gen. Abd el Aziz Soliman
20th PLA Division Gaza – Maj. Gen. Mohammed Abd el Moneim Hasni
Infantry Brigade (Ind) – Brig. Mohammed Abd el Moneim Khalil
6th Mechanized Division – Maj. Gen. Abd el Kader Hassan (on map as infantry division, but that's probably fine)
Task Force Shazli – Maj. Gen. Saad el-Shazly (on map as armored division)
4th Armoured Division – Maj. Gen. Sidki el Ghoul
1st Armoured Brigade – Brig. Hussein Abd el Nataf
125th Armoured Brigade – Brig. Ahmed El-Naby

A probable mistake

In the casualties table it is written that 400 Israeli tanks were DESTROYED. This number seems to be too high, and seems to refer to DAMAGED tanks. Most of the damaged tanks were repaired sooner or later. In addition, some 200 Arab tanks were taken by IDF and perhaps it is needed a different entry in this table.

undue

how is it undue to note the peacekeepers killed in the initial attack in the lead? every source that discusses the war in any depth notes that attack and the resulting casualties. nableezy - 17:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Peacekeeper casualty info is patchy on United Nations Truce Supervision Organization too. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:00, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

That sources discuss it is justification for it being in the article overall, but not a reason why it needs to be in the lead. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 20:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe the fact that one of the two countries started the war before the UN peacekeepers had even left the area and killed 15 UN Peacekeepers, which as far as I know had never and has never since been done by any other country in the world, is more relevant than many other sections included in the introduction. The fact that some users are so adamant into preventing this one half-sentence that is duly sourced to figure in the introduction does nothing but confirm that it is a consequential piece of information. Dan Palraz (talk) 13:51, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

It provides obvious detail to the situation on the ground at the time and helps paint the picture started by the sentence before, which notes that UN peacekeepers were still in the process of pulling out from the area. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@Dan Palraz, @Dovidroth: Ahem, both of you have breached the WP:1RR limit on this page today. Dan, you have dodged a bullet, since you've already been reverted in turn, but Dovid, I suggest you self-revert ASAP. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:23, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

totally UNDUE, a very fringe element in the war's commonly reported outbreak. Tombah (talk) 15:44, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Honestly, the USS Liberty incident gets more coverage in sources that I've seen, and we don't put that in the lede either (not even as a mention the way we do that UN peacekeepers were still withdrawing). --OuroborosCobra (talk) 23:53, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

We should mention that also. Both UN and US casualties should be bare minimum in the casualties section of the lead. Both are very high casualty numbers for entirely uninvolved forces. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:17, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

So, what is the procedure now? Dan Palraz (talk) 13:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Give it a little time for people to express a view about it. No rush. Selfstudier (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia?

I think it's false to put Saudi Arabia in direct opposite of Israel in belligerents and so is Iraq because even though they indirectly participated by sending some troops and money or weapons; the major powers involved or attacked were Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Saudi Arabia should be moved in supporters not direct belligerent. Nlivataye (talk) 17:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

You aren’t “indirectly involved” if you are sending troops. That is direct involvement. —OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:32, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

That's still indirect not direct. Most civil wars among nations have had foreign interferences and indirectly troops have been sent like the Russian civil war but does it say Russia was fighting US, The rest of Europe and Japan? No still Russian civil war. My point still stands Nlivataye (talk) 07:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 June 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove Vandalism, the cited source never said that the israeli attacks or invasion was “pre-emptive” or any thing like that

In the lead, Replace: Israel launched a series of pre-emptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort

With: Israel launched a series of airstrike assaults against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort Chafique (talk) 00:06, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done: Against consensus. Iseult parlez moi 14:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It should say "surprise attack", not "pre-emptive attack" because there was no imminent Egyptian attack to pre-empt 76.126.165.59 (talk) 16:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Please remove "pre-emptive." The source cited does not support this, and generally it seems illogical given that a paragraph or so earlier, the article states that Israel had said that if Egypt were to close the strait again, Israel would consider that a causus belli, i.e., a cause for war. Certainly the more logical interpretation of the events that followed, then is that Egypt closed the strait again, and given its knowledge of what Israel had just said about how they would interpret this as a causus belli, Egypt mobilized its army in order to defend against a presumed impending Israeli attack, which indeed did happen, just as Israel had said it would.

If you still feel this request is "against consensus," could you please cite a source to evidence that consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:C895:9F01:F439:8122:4D69:CEE (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Discrepancies about Lebanese involvement

This Misplaced Pages page on the Israeli-Lebanon conflict has conflicting information on the Lebanese involvement in the 1967 war. It sources state that "Lebanon rejected calls by other Arab governments to participate in the 1967 Six-Day War. Militarily weak in the south, Lebanon could not afford conflict with Israel."

A sentence should be added to mentioning the conflicting reports of Lebanese involvement. Stork19 (talk) 04:42, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 December 2023

Reference 81 links to a broken Archive.org link. The material is still partially available on Archive, but the corrected URL should be "https://archive.org/details/caseforpalestine0000quig/mode/2up". The full reference (fixing both links) would be the following source:

Quigley, John (2005). The Case for Palestine: An International Law Perspective. London: Duke University Press. p. 163. ISBN 978-0-8223-3539-9.

Curlsstars (talk) 21:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Map

Not an error, just a stylistic choice that makes the map a little less intuitive. The map at the top starts with Israel in dark blue, then different shades of green, then turquoise—it is a little hard to visualize the gradual attack with such colors. I think the flow of the war could be more easily understood at a glance if, e.g. day 1 was a moderate blue, day 2 a light blue, day 3 a blue-green, day 4 a darker green, day 5 a lighter green, day 6 a lime green. This would create a chronological gradient that would make the map significantly easier to comprehend. 108.147.175.124 (talk) 00:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, or just use categorical colors and make the figure legend bigger. Terrible figure hinestly. 82.147.226.185 (talk) 08:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Israeli expansionist plans

Seems like there is no mention in this article of the fact that Israel had been planning expansionism into West Bank and Gaza ever since the 1948 war? This was detailed notably by Ilan Pappe, who noted that these ambitions and plans had been fulfilled in 1967 war, which goes against the traditional Zionist narrative of having found themselves in a war they "did not start". Makeandtoss (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Ilan Pappe is an extremely opinionated source unfortunately, we cannot present his views as straight facts if not significantly substantiated by other sources. In reality there was a deep debate within Israeli authorities whether the West Bank should be captured or not. ABHammad (talk) 08:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

"We cannot present his views as straight facts if not significantly substantiated by other sources." This is not true at all, Pappé is a respected scholar and a reliable source, especially for facts. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Pappé is a significant voice, and per WP:NPOV, we must include all significant views. If he is truly in isolation, it can go in attributed; if he is not then it is even more due and necessary. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, also, anyway, he is not the only RS to have written about this. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

See https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-06-03/ty-article/.highlight/israel-said-67-land-conquests-werent-planned-declassified-documents-say-otherwise/0000017f-e738-df5f-a17f-fffe3ac80000 - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Also now having read more of Pappe's works, there are many good points to be highlighted here: Israel's military superiority due to US weapons was a factor in winning the war, northern Israeli incitement and provocations that aimed to illicit a Syrian response in order to occupy the Golan Heights, Israeli plans to occupy the WB from Jordan in 1957, 58 and 60. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

1967 ethnic cleansing

Do we have a separate WP article on that? Makeandtoss (talk) 14:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

1967 Palestinian exodus. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Interestingly very little information there that did not even show up on a google search; also few WP links to it. Pappe has also written about the expulsions of that period which he also charachterized as ethnic cleansing. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Preemptive

Pappe disputes the preemptive narrative, and I am sure other scholars do too, so why is this stated in WP voice? Makeandtoss (talk) 07:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

POV

Every single picture in the article except the first one seems to revolve around Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:57, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Good point. Which pictures do you propose to add? Jeppiz (talk) 09:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I will have to look. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:21, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The destroyed Jordan River bridge with Palestinian refugees crossing it is of course an iconic picture of the war. Possible options: Makeandtoss (talk) 10:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

RS

This phrasing which you reverted reflects RS: “ Syria. It captured the Gaza Strip and the Sinai desert from Egypt; the Golan Heights from Syria; and the West Bank and East Jerusalem, from Jordan.” Makeandtoss (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Makeandtoss (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree and restored the edit accordingly. Jeppiz (talk) 13:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I left a friendly note on your talk page about BRD.

Makeandtoss, thank you for engaging on the talk page. I do not believe it reflects the WEIGHT of mainstream narratives as to the abandonment of Gaza and the West Bank by Egypt and Jordan and I am concerned that the revision I reverted would mislead our uninformed readers as to the context and mainstream understanding of the history of the current occupation and the prior abandonment of the Palestinian people. We need to keep in mind that our readers do not come to these articles, particularly lead-skimmers, with an awareness of surrounding facts and narratives. While I know that some analysts believe that the war was precipitated by Israel as a pretext for the conquest of the occupied Palestinian lands, that is not currently the mainstream consensus view. SPECIFICO talk 14:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I think your talk page message to Jeppiz was unnecessary. BRD relates to when one’s own edits are reverted, not that of others. The previous version is awkward and I’ve provided the supporting RS for the new one. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Personal remarks should go on my user talk. However you appear to have confused BRD with the "enforced BRD" CT restriction on some pages. Please review BRD. Tag-team edit warring is being discussed now at WP:AE, and it's apparently quite a concern recently. Hence my note. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: There is no confusion. WP:BRD states: "Discuss your bold edit with the person who reverted you." It does not state discuss another user's bold edit with another user who had reverted them. Furthermore, your accusation towards @Jeppiz: that they are engaged in tag-team edit warring because they disagreed with your edit and reverted you once is an unacceptable and baseless assumption of bad faith. Again, as communicated to you below, please do better. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Tagteaming is a serious aspersion and shouldn't be made idly on talk pages. Either it's serious and you should raise it on a reporting page, or you shouldn't raise it at all. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, this all belongs on user talk, not here. And friendly reminders are routine in CT, not aspersions. SPECIFICO talk 14:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, your talk page note was not particularly helpful as you erroneously claimed I had engaged in discussion despite explaining my revert. Please do better in the future. Your reading of Makeandtoss's version is equally erroneous. Nowhere does it claim a "pretext". It simply states the neutral and sourced fact that Israel occupied these territories. Jeppiz (talk) 22:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Sourced facts aren't necessarily NPOV. See WP:ONUS. The prior version I reinstated is a more neutral summary for editors unaware of the context and relations with Jordan and Egypt. Disagreements need to be discussed on talk. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

infobox map

The various shades of green are confusing, unnecessary and the legend is barely readable. Do we have an alternative map showing only two colors; pre- and post-1967? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 August 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The following word in bold in last paragraph of lead should be removed, since it is superfluous and gramatically incorrect:

...and the Sinai Peninsula as and the Gaza Strip from Egypt.

Thank you very much!--Steven Homan (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

USS Liberty

I suggest that you change a line in the paragraph about the uss liberty from 'After an investigation, the U.S. accepted the explanation that the incident was friendly fire and the issue was closed by the exchange of diplomatic notes in 1987.' to 'After an investigation, the U.S. accepted the explanation that the incident was accidental and the issue was closed by the exchange of diplomatic notes in 1987.' as 'friendly fire' implies that the US was directly on Israel's side during the war when in reality they kept a position of strict neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 16:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Done. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Engvar

This article was started all the way back in 2002 in American English. Per MOS:RETAIN it should stay that way. John (talk) 00:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I've restored US English and added a tag. John (talk) 07:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Peace offer that wasn't

"The Israeli decision was to be conveyed to the Arab nations by the United States. The U.S. was informed of the decision, but not that it was to transmit it. There is no evidence of receipt from Egypt or Syria, and some historians claim that they may never have received the offer."

Incorrect. Israel told the US not to tell anybody about the offer nor did they do so themselves. As another Misplaced Pages article puts it:

"On 19 June 1967, shortly after the Six-Day War, the Israeli government voted to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for a permanent peace settlement and a demilitarization of the returned territories. This decision was not made public at the time, nor was it conveyed to any Arab state. " - Land for peace#Peace treaties

The current description here should be changed to that. Mcdruid (talk) 10:56, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

That's correct. The Raz source from the other article is good. Zero 12:58, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Mauritahhnia also declared war

Why isn't it added even if they didn't send any troops 80.107.72.31 (talk) 23:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

- FYI, I haven't seen any good sources corroborating this statement, so I think we're gonna pass on this one; we can't just simply make unsourced statements now, can we? TootsieRollsAddict (talk to me pls I am lonely) 15:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Soviets wrongly informing Nasser of IDF at Syrian border

"Background" section: One source is not enough, wording leaves user puzzled. Suggest adding more explicit & nuanced Egyptian source: Elbahtimy, Hassan (June 5, 2017). "Did the Soviet Union Deliberately Instigate the 1967 War in the Middle East?", The Wilson Center. It suggests unintentionally wrong intelligence and general Soviet reluctance in supporting Egyptian war intentions. It's also available online, unlike the only ref so far, a book.

More is of course needed. Didn't the USSR have useful satellite assets in 1967, did they depend on human assets or various intercepts, which can more easily be inaccurate? We're talking of some 10,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks, which weren't actually where the Soviets said they were! ("An Israeli infantry brigade typically has about 1,000 to 2,000 soldiers, while an armoured tank brigade has about 100 tanks." See here.)

"On May 13, 1967, the Soviet Union provided information that Israel was amassing around 11 brigades to attack Syria through at least three channels. It was first communicated to Anwar Sadat, speaker of the Egyptian parliament, during his short stop in Moscow following an official visit to North Korea. It was directly communicated twice more in Cairo, through Egyptian intelligence and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. As this information accumulated on Nasser’s desk, by May 13, Egypt was considering how it could come to Syria’s rescue."

Brevity is the least of many required qualities of an encyclopedic text. Arminden (talk) 11:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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