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Archives

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Requested Move May 2007

Survey to find out which name editors think is the best one under which to place this article. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This survey lays out several proposals. Please only express # Support and an explanation followed by a signature for any of the proposals. Please place any comments like Oppose opinions in the Discussion section. You may change your opinions at any time up to the close of the survey. Changing you opinion and supporting more than one option in the Survey is encouraged as it helps to build a consensus. Please add any new proposals at the bottom of the list in chronological order. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you note the rationale for your move request here? Consensus can change, but we don't need to have additional move requests unless someone believes it actually has changed. Stability has benefits, and this is a controversial topic. Dekimasuよ! 00:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Survey

For previous surveys see:

1. Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 3#Requested move Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks, result of the debate was move, 2 May 2005
2. Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 4#Requested move Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo, result of the debate was move, 1 June 2006

--Philip Baird Shearer 15:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep the article at Dokdo

1. Support local name used by entity in actual possession, arguably most common in English. (No strong preference between this option and move to Liancourt Rocks). --Reuben 16:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Support b/c it has the most hits on Google web, Google book, the major newspapers, major websites (i.e. UN.org), etc., as shown in the archived discussion. (Wikimachine 18:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC))
3. Support same as above Janviermichelle 18:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
4. Support Per above. John Smith's 18:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
5. Support per above, especially because it's most common. — AKADriver ☎ 19:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
6. Support local name used by entity in actual possession, arguably most common in English. --Kingj123 21:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
7. Support I do not like the name "Liancourt Rocks" to be the title of this article because there are already established historical names while Liancourt Rocks do not have any cultural or historical meaning. BombAFT 21:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
8. Support. Actual possession and reasonably similar name usage provide adequate support to the status quo. -- Cjensen 23:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

   Support per most common naming. Sorry, didn't read first, I misunderstood above comment which is wrong, since it is equal used, I withdraw this vote. It appears UN, etc. supports a different name, but I'll read up the huge page first, so sorry. Seoyoon 02:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

9. Support Yo peoples, I'm back after a refreshing 24 hour break from Misplaced Pages. Support using Dokdo as per above. Good friend100 03:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
10. Support Per King123. Endless Google arguments here and in archives just show Dokdo and Takeshima are widely used, Liancourt Rocks is not. Dokdo is the official locally used name to break the tie. Wikiment 05:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
11. Support Liancourt Rocks is outdated name as Pinnacle for Senkaku islands. Some encyclopedia may refer the islets to Liancourt rocks, but it is largely a legacy from old days (before WWII) without any meaningful contents with it. Therefore it is questionable that it is comtemporary and the most common name and these days it is actually being used less and less compared to Dokdo or even to Takeshima. Between Dokdo and Takeshima, Dokdo should be the title per many reasons above. Ginnre 07:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Move the article back to Liancourt Rocks

1. Support This is my first option as it complies with WP:NPOV --Philip Baird Shearer 16:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Support Reasonably neutral name. (No strong preference between this option and Keep at Dokdo). --Reuben 16:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
3. Support Disputed territories should never be referred to by names used by any of the claimants --H27kim 17:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
4. Support If the slashed names (and their equivalents) are excluded, this is probably the most common English name.--Dwy 18:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
5. Support As shown recently, neither Dokdo nor Takeshima are more common in English pages. In additional, nearly all English speakers will encounter this item in the media where both will be mentioned, making siding with one name odd. Liancourt Rocks is a modern, accepted English name for this place used by all major encyclopedias and official naming conventions of at least the American government. I might also add that besides Dokdo not being more common, there is a sticky NPOV issue in newspapers where pundits are claiming, "In consideration of the popularity and influence of Misplaced Pages, the preference given to the word Dokdo demonstrates global Internet users are tilting toward us." here. --Cheers, Komdori 20:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
6. Support As per Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names). Liancourt Rocks is the most common name among encyclopedias. Other external references suggested by recommended external references for identifying common names that supports Liancourt are "geographic name servers" (according to the NGIA GNS server, "Liancourt Rocks" is the BGN Standard and both Japanese and Korean names are variants) and "international organisations" (the United Nations Cartographic Section uses "Liancourt Rock" in List of Territories). --Kusunose 22:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
7. Support As per above. Parsecboy 23:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
8. Support as per above Masterhatch 01:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
9. Support More NPOV name. Hermeneus (user/talk) 02:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
10. Support pending resolution of the dispute between Japan and South Korea. This name sucks, but at least it's neutral, which makes it better than the alternatives. - Sekicho 03:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
11. Support This is the title used in English in Encyclopedias and trusted sources. This is the title as used in Colombia encyclopedia, Britannica refers to it as a name, and Encarta has a map. None of these three major references uses either Dokdo or Takeshima except to explain what the island is called in Korea and Japan respectively. It is also stated as the name in the CIA world factbook and the UN. When a name is actually used in media Liancourt Rocks is sometimes used and once again Takeshima or Dokdo as names in Japan and Korea simply reported but never actually used. In recent scholarly publications, Liancourt is actually the most commonly name and the one being used. Seokwoo Lee, from Incheon’s Inha University in South Korea and an authority on territorial disputes and this one in particular says "The two tiny rocky islets are called 'Tokdo' in Korean, 'Takeshima' in Japanese, and internationally recognised as 'Liancourt Rocks'." Dokdo and Takeshima are essentially never used in trusted sources as the name of the island in English. (Although Google hits gives Dokdo and Takeshima about equal hits and more than Liancourt Rocks this is misleading, because most of those hits are simple reporting what the island is called; or are on webpages set up specifically to promote one of the names). Macgruder 03:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
12. Support NPOV.--Watermint 08:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Move to Takeshima

1. Support I do not like the name "Liancourt Rocks" to be the title of this article because there are already established historical names while Liancourt Rocks do not have any cultural or historical meaning. I also voted for Dokdo!BombAFT 21:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Move to Takeshima/Dokdo

1. Support This is a second option as I don't like a slash in a name (means something in a URL) and which of the two names should come first--Philip Baird Shearer 16:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Move to Dokdo/Takeshima

1. Support This is a second option as I don't like a slash in a name (means something in a URL) and which of the two names should come first--Philip Baird Shearer 16:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Support By far the most common English name. I don't foresee much dispute as to which name should come first. Most Japanese will be happy to have the Korean name first on the basis of the current control, and this appears to be a rather established practice.--Dwy 19:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
3. Support English speakers will invariably hit this combo. I see no reason to violate alphabetical order. I would prefer to avoid the slash, but it's far better than siding with one side. --Cheers, Komdori 20:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
4. Support A second option. This is by far the most common name encountered (but usually as a reference) outside encyclopedias and scholarly publications. (the slash could be replaced by a | ). When an English user encounters one they usually will encounter the other especially in News, and sources that are not regarded as respected. Macgruder 03:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I think enough time has passed since the last WP:RM (in 1 June 2006) for another to be held. So I am going to post this to WP:RM --Philip Baird Shearer 16:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

See Archive 9: Data on reliable sources for a survey of names in carried out on "Encyclopedias", "Newspapers", "Reliable websites" and "Google Books" about a week ago. Also another earlier survey Archive 9: Data from archive --Philip Baird Shearer 17:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The "most common name" from the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions guidlines does not trump Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view policy. As Liancourt Rocks is a neutral name in the ongoing dispute over the ownership of Dokdo/Takeshima, I think that this article should be placed under that name. The guideline Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid makes a valid point under the section "Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter" to paraphrase "Use of the name Dokdo or Takeshima implies a moral cliam to the island, if one party can successfully attach the label to the island, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its viewpoint. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem that I see with the article names of "Takeshima/Dokdo" or "Dokdo/Takeshima" is which name comes first. I can see that being as much a debate as whether it resides at Dokdo or Takeshima. Further because a "/" implies a URL hierarchy I think that names with a "/" in them should be depreciated. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I request that certain discussions (i.e. the ones containing the data of the web results, etc.) be restored from archive. That way, people who are not familiar with this dispute may have more factors to consider in making votes. (Wikimachine 17:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

The trouble is that there are 100 of kilobytes of discussion over this. It is not at all clear why we need to pull up information from the archives instead of just providing a link to the informaiton like this: Archive 9: Data from archive --Philip Baird Shearer 19:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

What are the parameters of the survey? How long is it to run? What breakdown of opinion is required to consider a consensus to have been reached? Are there to be qualification requirements for valid participants, such as number of edits or length of time editing? The last incarnation of this survey elicited large numbers of sock puppets and single-purpose accounts, as well as outright vandalism, and considerable confusion about the criteria for closing and evaluating the survey. Who will have the discretion to remove disruptive edits from the survey area of the talk page? Although I already registered my opinions above, I suggest that this survey should be put on hold until these questions are decided. --Reuben 17:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

See WP:RM, but the normal length for a survey is 5 days, what is a consensus etc. As to the question of sockpupets etc, I have found when I have closed a contentious WP:RM, that at the end of a survey it is usually best to ask the participants if they think there are any irregularities and then to investigate those bought to my attention. However this is really a question for the administrator who closes this request. As I have opened it I will not close it. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

All legitimate voters from the last poll (~ 30 voters) have been notified of the new poll. (Wikimachine 19:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

This survey is not a vote. It is a survey of opinions to try to reach a Misplaced Pages:Consensus, the administrator who closes the poll will determin what the consensu (if any) is --Philip Baird Shearer 19:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Comment: Let the readers decide for themselves after reading the archive. You cannot deny that Dokdo has the most hits in English pages with the data I've put up. You also agreed that encyclopedias tend to lag on disputed issues. And I explained that the article you've linked does not say as you claim. Repeat, it's only an observational statement. It's unfair that you quote only that sentence. Readers will know by reading the rest of the article that the author doesn't mean anything POV. (Wikimachine 20:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC))
2. Comment: Your data is flawed, with things like this listing all the transliterations of Dokdo and Takeshima once meaning you get 5 counts for Dokdo and 1 for Takeshima. I hope editors do read that article, it will show how the title of this article is interpretted in a POV way. --Cheers, Komdori 21:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine there is a risk that my search result will be seriously erroneous due to multiple variation usage (which info, by the way, the site was specifically aiming to provide... unlike most other sites). But so what? Does that help Liancourt Rocks? Never. Even if I don't include the different variations, Liancourt Rocks is outnumbered by both Dokdo & Takeshima. The fact that 80% of Takeshima results are names completely justifies that minor rounding error. Every Google page (10 results), about 8 sites use Takeshima as a name for Japanese individuals. What, maybe about 1 site per Google page could be accounted for the multiple variation use. Fine, I'll do the searches again. (Wikimachine 23:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

In response to Wikimachine's comment:

It is not true that Dokdo is more common in Google. A simple test as required by Misplaced Pages shows the names are used equally. To do a simple test, you follow the guidelines that say to include some English words, and examine the first few pages for false hits. We need to check for variations, and to ensure Takeshima is not referring to names. We can achieve this easily by phrasing our single test carefully. The following test meets all those requirements and give equal results:

• takeshima island Japan Korea disputed -wikipedia 18200
• Dokdo OR Tokdo island Japan Korea disputed -wikipedia 16200

A careful look at the Takeshima results shows few if any uses outside this dispute. This is a tie.

Macgruder 04:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh. Seems that you forgot about the archive. I already told you that WP naming convention does not limit google test to simple tests & that would lead to an especially strong bias. I also showed you this link on why simple tests shouldn't be used because they contain similar pages that have nothing to do with the terms. Also, what's so bad about excluding similar pages? There's nothing bad about it, but there's something good about it. Why not use it? And does it matter? Liancourt Rocks have the most votes currently, but even if I were to use your faulty search method, Liancourt Rocks has only 39,800 sites while Dokdo has 466,000. (Wikimachine 04:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

The archive is a flawed test as shown in this discussion below. Stop talking in generalities and find the flaw in my test. Yes, some of those pages might be referring to another Takeshima but it is very small and not enough to change the essential result. . Macgruder 04:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a complete lie! As you can see, if you exclude similar pages, Dokdo comes out on top, but if you don't Takeshima comes out on top. All of you liars! I just can' believe people lying straight at my face like that. (Wikimachine 04:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Once again, shouting at people and calling them liars when your 'method' of excluding similar pages is wrong is not productive. Google stops storing at around the 1000 page mark, so EVERY test with more than 1000 pages gives a similar result. Or are you telling me that of the 153,000,000 Smiths in Google only 930 of them count because of 'exclude pages'. This kind of reasoning is why I call you results flawed. I think when you make a mistake and call people liars it's time for you to consider your place in Misplaced Pages. Macgruder 05:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

"Change your attitude, and get a new suit & tie before coming back to this discussion", Macgruder. If this was the case, why not tell me? Fine. I'll base my statistical inference on your web searches & I'll prove to you that Takeshima is mostly used as names. (Wikimachine 05:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

We did. Twice. Both Komdori and I pointed this out to you before. Once again you're resorting to rude comments. It's you who is going around calling people liars. That proof needs to apply to the search that I have made btw because they have been framed in such a way already to exclude most Takeshima's as names. Macgruder 05:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The archive is not a flawed test. Spamming is part of Google test. Also, the new statistics I'm going to build will exclude spams, unlike yours. And spam applies to your searches as well. I see no net benefit. This is ridiculous.

• Dokdo: 747
• Takeshima: 648

That is your search without similar pages. (Wikimachine 04:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

No it's isn't. Sorry, but I think you are confused about how to use Google. Looking at the last page is meaningless for more than about 1000 results. Google doesn't store more than about a thousand pages. If you do the same search with Smith, the most common name in English, then you get the same result. It stops at around 900 even though there are 153,000,000 Smith results. This is an example of flawed reasoning. (Your 466,000 is also meaningless because it is not limited to English language as is required.). Macgruder 04:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we just got finished showing this is not true unless you include Korean results. Dokdo is actually in the minority if you don't use the variations (there are variations because it's not an English name, it's a transliteration--besides, there is a standard English name, see my comments undre my vote). Of course, nearly all users will see the combo together, or see the established English name. --Cheers, Komdori 20:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

all right let's stay right here. Wait.

• First, define what you mean by Korean results.
• Second, Dokdo is minority only if you don't use variations. Its search size is far greater if you use the different variations. (i.e. tokto, dokto)

• Now... You haven't given reasons why not to use variations. I'll explain:

• Because Japanese words use Latin-based pronunciation (all letters have only 1 sound designated to them) while Korean words do not, in English, Dokdo happens to have many variations. They include Dokdo, Dokto, Tokdo, Tokto, Dok-do, Dok-to, Tok-to, Tok-do, Tok Islet, and Dok Islet... while the Japanese counterpart contains only one, Takeshima.
• Web search under Misplaced Pages policy seeks to measure the degree of usage of the term.
• I already explained in the archived page that authors will not switch between different variations. That means that there should not be double, triple, quadruple, etc. tags if I were to search for all variations. Any addition can be ignored as a rounding error.

• Third, I already proved that 80% of Takeshima is used as Japanese name, not for the name of the island.
• Fourth, people keep saying NPOV NPOV, but they're wrong. S. Korea has 100% administrative rights over the island. Japan may dispute the claim, but the mere act of dispute doesn't put Japan on equal level of ownership of Dokdo with S. Korea. If S. Kore was to make territorial dispute on Alaska with U.S., does having Alaska as the title become POV?

• This spills over to another WP policy.

The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these apply, the modern official name, in articles dealing with the present, or the modern local historical name, in articles dealing with a specific period, should be used. All applicable names can be used in the titles of redirects.

• Since S. Korea is the official country controlling Dokdo, Korean local name should be used.
• Even if Liancourt Rocks is widely accepted name, Dokdo in itself has made much larger presence in the English language & can be considered as a English title as well.

• Fifth, Misplaced Pages concerns only with the commonality of the title in its naming convention.
• Sixth, final analysis: only candidate that matches Dokdo in commonality is Takeshima. Even if you were to not add the different variations for Dokdo, Dokdo still offers Liancourt Rocks no chance. I'm surprised that so many people are advocating Liancourt Rocks over Takeshima. Everything comes down to the commonality between Takeshima & Dokdo. Even if you say searching multiple variations may lead to buildup of same sites, remember that 80% of Takeshima is just names. Plus, I'm planning to do another data search with the method Komdori suggested (with all the search variations in "-"). That will clearly show that Dokdo trumps over the 2 other titles completely. And I already said in the archive that

• Misplaced Pages does not recommend double or triple names.
• Misplaced Pages does not recommend "/", or any other symbols that might suggest a hierarchy of articles.

(Wikimachine 20:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

We can use the variations if we agree it is not an English name but a transliteration of a Korean one (Tokyo is an English name, Toukyou is a transliteration). There is an established, modern, English name (Liancourt Rocks). Even if we were to ignore the English name for this place, and include the variations, it's still a statistical dead-heat. --Cheers, Komdori 21:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, nice double bind. Nope. An established English title can still have different transliterations. Plus, it doesn't matter really because we advocate Dokdo, the most common of all variations of the Korean name for the island, just as Misplaced Pages uses Tokyo instead of Toukyou. That there can be only one single established form of a name or title is non-argument. (Wikimachine 23:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Those of you supporting Dokdo based on the Google hits should probably take a look at the results listed below. Wikimachine's method (the only google test that demonstrated a dominance of Dokdo over Takeshima) is terribly flawed. Most of the results from his/her google test are unrelated to Dokdo. Parsecboy 00:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Still better than the previous tests, and in much better condition than Takeshima search results. Like I said below, I'm going to do manual count & statistical procedure so wait couple of days. (Wikimachine 02:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

If his edits are so flawed, they why don't you try a google test? Its not easy providing statistical data and it can get very tedious (as I have done it before). Don't simply reject his edit list simply because you don't agree with the results. Good friend100 03:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking to me?

Philip, I'm really frustrated with the fact that you archived the previous discussions because all these arguments that users like Komdori & Macgruder are bringing up I completely answered & annihilated in the previous discussions. The editors participating in the poll seem to have neglected reading the previous discussions, and, as I predicted, have voted based on their personal dogmas & experience from the previous poll. (Wikimachine 03:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

For example, even if Liancourt Rocks is used by encyclopedias, most books use Dokdo. And I already explained that encyclopedias tend to lag on current issues & territory disputes.

Second, commonality of the title outweighs NPOV, per WP naming convention. People seem to have forgotten that.

Third, Google results show clearly that Dokdo is clearly more common than Liancourt Rocks & Takeshima. I just hate these people who constantly make obvious lies (as if to confuse outside readers & win support). I'd really love it if Komdori would explain how in the world Liancourt Rocks has higher number of hits on the search results.

Fourth, I also see people who make links to Misplaced Pages naming conventions, etc., but tell obvious lies about what those policies actually say (or make leeway interpretations).

(Wikimachine 03:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Answers to voters for Liancourt Rocks

• Philip Baird Shearer: Common usage of the title in English outweighs NPOV policy.
• H27kim: Misplaced Pages naming convention does not limit usage of names advocated by any of the claimants in the title of the article as long as it is the most comon title.
• Dwy: This is not the most common name. See archive & current data.

We are all rather familiar with Wikimachine's opinions so he does not have to try to refute the other side every time we say something. I only hope he will accept that people may have different opinions.--Dwy 06:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Komdori: As shown recently, Liancourt Rocks can compete neither with Dokdo nor Takeshima, even if you exclude all transliteration variations. The fact that Liancourt Rocks is an accepted name is not a reason to choose the title when Dokdo is also an accepted name.
• Kusunose: encyclopedias are not the only places to search. Google Book search results favor Dokdo more than Liancourt Rocks. See Talk:Dokdo/Archive_9#New_Data_Using_New_Method. UN uses Dokdo more than any other terms.
• Macgruder: You should, of all people, know best that only encyclopedias refer to the island as Liancourt Rocks, but most of the academic sources refer to the island either as Takeshima or Dokdo, not Liancourt Rocks. See Talk:Dokdo/Archive_9#New_Data_Using_New_Method. Out of 10 major reliable news press, Liancourt Rocks receives 23 total while Dokdo receives more than 100.

(Wikimachine 03:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Data based on Komdori's proposals

I will do this only on web search b/c Google Book is too small to be affected. Also see Talk:Dokdo/Archive_9#New_Data_Using_New_Method.

Interesting: you claim many of the hits for Takeshima are irrelevant because they're last names. How about hits for Tok-to that aren't relevant either. Hit the 40 button on the .com domain, and you get "tok to da hand", "doan tok to me about", dun tok to me abt", "AND FUCKING TOK TO THEM", and finally, "・・・ＴＯＫ－ＴＯ (TAKE-SIMA) とか". So we're talking 20% relevance in that one google page. So much for Dokdo and transliterations dominating other results, eh? Not to mention your objectivity in the matter, where it's apparently ok to make sure Takeshima hits actually apply to the issue at hand, but Dokdo + transliterations hits are accepted at face value. Can we say POV pusher? Parsecboy 00:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, lets look at #10 from .edu domain. We get "Kohji Suzuki, Department of Engineering, University of Tokto, Tokyo", "Tahashi' Tokto", apparently a last name, (here's an interesting return) "Liancourt Rocks ("Tokto" in Korea, "Takeshima" in", " Tokto Ilimbezova", a first name, " Tokto, Japan", and only two other articles that actually discuss the disputed islands. Wikimachine, your method is horribly flawed, and the only thing we can take from your test is that you're a blind POV pusher. Parsecboy 00:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Interpret as you wish, but I doubt what you say would apply to most of the searches. In my opinion, that type of spamming should apply to both searches - meaning that there is no net benefit of factoring such into the equation. Furthermore, I'm just doing as Komdori asked --> I'm open to more suggestions. If you want, I could manually count all for Takeshima, Dokdo, etc. because there aren't that much. But you'd have to wait maybe a week or two before the counting is finished. (Wikimachine 00:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Ha, read the archive before you say that. I'll do something about it. (Wikimachine 00:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

What do you mean, interpret as I wish? A slice of your Google test results show that only 20% of the .com sites examined relate in any way to the disputed islands, and only 30% on the .edu page examined. And yet you claim only Takeshima is affected by false returns. What exactly am I interpreting besides cold hard facts? Perhaps you should explain your comment a little better. By the way, I never said the Takeshima returns are 100% perfect either; but it's intellectually dishonest of you to claim the Dokdo returns are 100% acceptable, while "80% of Takeshima is just names". Parsecboy 00:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm just commenting on my cool stance with people who accuse me of being POV. It's just not my responsibility to catch all the errors. I noticed that Takeshima was used as names when I was searching newspaper sites, but I never saw Dokdo being used as names in those sites. So I got the impression that Takeshima was having a major problem while Dokdo wasn't. And I also think that spamming would apply to both Takeshima and Dokdo. I'm confident that I can find as many spams as you describe for Takeshima & Liancourt Rocks results as the amount for Dokdo variations. That is part of the Google search procedure. You make the assumption that all similar searches have the same technical problems, or Google search shouldn't even be used because there would be arguments over which is more accurate, which as more spams, etc. Spams are technical problems. However, people using Takeshima as names for individual is not a technical problem but one that has much larger implications (cultural) & necessitates appropriate response. (Wikimachine 00:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

I don't think the erroneous results returned from the Dokdo (or more accurately, from what I've seen, Tok-to) are any less a "technical problem" than Takeshima as a last name. I saw a couple Tokto's used as a last name or first name. I don't think it's properly classified as spam, as it doesn't appear to be an attempt to raise one side's name higher than the other. Most of the erroneous results I saw for Tokto in the .com domain were misspellings of "talk to", while many in .edu and .gov were sheer gibberish that happened to randomly have totko in it. I personally don't believe Google tests should ever be used, especially as a core portion for the justification for one side over another. Parsecboy 00:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that Koreans don't use Dokdo as a last name. That's impossible b/c Koreans have last names of only 1 syllable (i.e. Bak --> Park in English, Oh, Yang, etc.) Like I said, I'll do manual count so it doesn't matter, does it? Just wait peacefully. (Wikimachine 01:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

However, if you want a suggestion, start with removing Tok-to from the search criteria. From the results I've looked at from .edu and .gov domains, it more often than not refers to Tokto, Japan, or the Tokto National Musuem, also in Japan. Tokto county in China may also skew results. Parsecboy 00:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, I'll just count manually. (Wikimachine 00:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

I'll perform statistical procedure for large search results & manual count for small search results. I already did a statistical procedure at Talk:Heaven_Lake(Wikimachine 01:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

No need for all this complication. Here is the simple statistically unbiased test that makes it clear

• takeshima island Japan Korea disputed -wikipedia 18200
• Dokdo OR Tokdo island Japan Korea disputed -wikipedia 16200 Macgruder 04:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

But that is still not clear. It will still contain all the spams that Parsecboy complained about. It also contains similar pages. Back to here, what does Saint Thomas University have in common with MOFA? None. You know it. But why do you insist on using similar pages?

It also fails to exclude individual name usage for Takeshima, as my statistics will exclude. It also fails to bring in all variations of the transliteration Dokdo. (Wikimachine 04:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Including Japan Korea disputed in the search terms also excludes pages that are about the rocks themselves, but not about the dispute over their ownership. This fairly well forces the results to be similar for the two terms, since documents about the territorial dispute will usually mention both names. For some examples of what gets excluded with this search: , , . --Reuben 04:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

That's non-argument. If a site contains the term Liancourt Rocks, it will show up regardless of whether the similar pages are excluded or not. Show me the Google pages that show this differnece. (Wikimachine 04:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Good point Reuben. You can try different search terms and they all pretty much give a similar result. Such as removing dispute. The point is that all such searches give similar results, and it is not clear which is in the majority. As I have pointed out a random check of name usage for Takeshima shows very few examples and would reduce the number by only a few percent. I have included the two most common transliterations Tokdo and Dokdo. A simple Google search shows that Tok do Tok-do and other variations are used very rarely (about 1%) in comparison. This 1 or 2 percent issues don't change the basic result. As Komdori and I have pointed out before looking at the last pages of a search with more than 1000 pages is meaningless as Google never stores more than that, and anyway looking at the last page has nothing to do with similar pages. Google always has that same message at the end of their searches. This is just Wikimachine's misunderstanding of that message and ways to exclude similar pages.

Reuben, you can also do the search for both Dokdo and Takeshima which only gives 11200 results. This shows that about 7000 pages use only Takeshima and about 6000 use only Dokdo. Once again this is a statistical tie. (I for one and not going to take a close result and say it means anything beyond a tie).

And yes it does effectively remove the name Takeshima. Because the words are chosen in such a way to make a Takeshima far more likely as the island than the name. You may find 1 or 2% Takeshimas as names but it doesn't change the statistical result. This is why Zogby and other polling professionals only choose a 1000 people to get a countrywide opinion. Because a cross-section gives a more accurate and sufficient statistical result (e.g. within 5% margin of error). More parameters simply introduce more errors. Macgruder 05:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Statistical Inference based on Macgruder's web searches

Let me note that Dokdo results do not contain all transliterations (i.e. Tok Islet); however, I'm confident that Dokdo has much higher web usage than Takeshima even without the 8 other variations.

• randInt(1, 18100, 300)--> L1
• randInt(1, 16200, 300)--> L2

• SortA(L1)
• SortA(L2)

• Repeat searches with omitted results included.

• Takeshima

• Accept: 4, 122, 263, 277, 376, 392, 405, 487, 513, 521, 529, 560, 631, 910,

• Reject procedure. Google does not serve more than 1,000 results per query. Use results without similar pages to identify the percentage of the acceptable terms. This time, include all 10 transliterations for Dokdo.

• Takeshima: 18,100
• Dokdo: 21,500

• Since excluding similar pages show the most relevant pages, we can infer that the slightest inclusion of non-relevant searches (i.e. spams) makes a much larger presence in the larger web.

• randInt(1, 648, 50)--> L1
• randInt(1, 734, 50)--> L2

• SortA(L1)
• SortA(L2)

• Takeshima

• Accept: 7, 10, 11, 25, 55, 92, 93, 114, 115, 115, 126, 153, 179, 217, 224, 230, 256, 259, 275, 280, 296, 329, 330, 331, 332, 356, 361, 361, 365, 368, 376, 379, 399, 439, 507, 514, 517, 517, 522, 524, 529, 556, 564, 577, 579, 595,
• Reject: 640 , 642

• Dokdo

• Accept: 28, 47, 102, 115, 129, 147, 167, 172, 194, 223, 236, 281, 283, 288, 293, 299, 305, 311, 332, 347, 373, 387, 387, 388, 389, 422, 425, 432, 463, 481, 482, 502, 506, 513, 514, 525, 528, 533, 552, 556, 578, 588, 591, 591, 623, 637, 646, 649, 683, 734
• Reject: None.

• 2-PropZTest: H0= p1=p2; Ha= p1=/=p2. z= -1.428571429. p-value: .1531275427.
• At the usual 95% confidence, the null hypothesis that there is no significant difference between the two proportion of acceptable terms for Takeshima and Dokdo. However, at 80% confidence, the null hypothesis may be rejected.

(06:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

• NA-Class Japan-related pages
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