Talk:Birger Jarl - Misplaced Pages

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Several questions

Several questions:

Who was Fr. Hedberg?
Is it true that Mechtild was the mother of Bengt in 1254 even though she wasn't married to Birger until 1261?
Who is the king who was Ingeborg Eriksdotter's father? Is it the Erik Eriksson who's mentioned in the next sentence?

Ingeborg Eriksdotter's father was Erik Knutsson (d. 1216). Ingeborg's brother was Erik Eriksson (a.k.a. Erik the lame) who made his brother-in-law (i.e. Birger) Jarl in 1248. Erik "the lame" Eriksson was the last of the House of Erik.

-- Zoe

1. Havent the slighest these were old thing, which I didnt wrote. 2. Really have to check this up, thanks for noticing. She was married to Abel of denmark before, well see into this. 3. As above stated, Erik Knutsson was Ingeborgs father, not her brother.

So now Id be most interested to know

In what source did you find Erik Knutsson as Ingeborgs brother?

Glad for your interest in scandinavian genealogy. // :) Dan Koehl

I just put in what 217.215.99.203 wrote in response to my 3rd question above. If this is wrong, who WAS her brother? -- Zoe

As named above (by 217.215.99.203) Erik Eriksson. Erik Knutsson was the father to both of them, that why they are sister and brothers. I was really thinking, because yesterday actually someone asked for genealogy information, that I should make someting more graphical. Is there any standard for such things, or can I just make a /link to genealogy? Dan again.

You might consider creating a page Kings of Sweden and indicating the relationships there. -- Zoe

Theres already a list List_of_Swedish_monarchs. I meant a graphical thing/Dan

Now noticing that someone has written that Birger married the daughter of Abel, with whom she was actually married with. It sure isnt easy to put this in order, when so many want to write so much, but wrong...Dan Koehl 23:47 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

It is better not to name the family that Birger jarl belonged to as "Folkunga", nowadays most historians namen it "Bjälbo-ätten" (Bjälbo-family) as Folkunga in their time was an opposition of Birger jarl and his sons. First in the 17th century, due to some confusion the historians started to name Bjälbo as Folkunga.

One source added

Today I added one source to the article and removed the templates from the top of the page (to add them to two sections needing attention). More sources and some copy-editing is still necessary though.
/ Mats Halldin (talk) 09:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Date of birth

The source I used for the article clearly say he must have been older than 50 (...han kan knappast ha varit född så sent som 1216. Fadern Magnus Minnesköld antas nämligen ha dött senast 1210. En hyfsad gissning är att Birger fötts något eller några år innan faderns bortgång.) I don't claim the Lindström brothers are the ideal NPOV reference, but preferably another source should be used before replacing the information in the article.
Thanks
/ Mats Halldin (talk) 11:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about this. Added reference. The traditional dating mentioned in the article would have made him around 60 at the time of his death, however recent publications take 10 years off from his age after the examination of his bones. I don't know on which grounds his father has been though to have died before 1210, but that seems to be incorrect then. --Drieakko 11:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd also point out the fact that Birger was very interested in getting more offspring his entire life and binding other dynasties to his own. He had his first daughter in 1238. Assuming that he was born already before 1210, that would make him closer to 30 then, which sounds uncharacteristic. Putting him closer to 20 sounds more believable. --Drieakko 12:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, sounds believable. The source I used, which admits itself the information is "a fair guess", is however still used for the Early life section, so the information in the article is still contradictory. Maybe it perfectly well illustrates how much is knowledge and/or speculations concerning Sweden during the 13th century. I don't understand Finnish, but I'll gladly assume your reference is more credible than mine, so, please, feel free to substitute information I've added.

/ Mats Halldin (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The contradiction is difficult to tackle since Magnus Minnesköld is regarded Birger's father on fairly strong grounds, but he is also usually regarded to have died in 1208. All the pieces don't add up, so someone has it wrong, we just don't know for sure who. Perhaps Magnus Minnesköld, born around 1150, had another son, Magnus, who has been merged together with his father and who would have been the actual father of Birger. --Drieakko 12:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Mm, I tried to make this clear in the article by shovelling things around a bit. Again, don't hesitate to rework it.

/ Mats Halldin (talk) 16:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The foundations of a Swedish kingdom?

I lifted out the assertion that Birger Jarl's reforms laid the foundations for a Swedish kingdom. I know there is a tendency among some Swedish historians to put everything as late as possible, and I guess they still have an axe to grind against gothicismus and national romanticism. A kind of antithesis to what they perceive as fusty old stuff. However, there are scholars who disagree with their way of presenting Swedish history, e.g. Mats G. Larsson who deals with Sweden's past as a Germanic kingdom. On WP we have to follow NPOV and we have to have a functional terminology in English. This means that we have to be very careful with what a particular Swedish historian means with "kungarike" in a specific context and with how this should be translated into English. IMHO, it is a trifle pathetic to have a statement that implies that there was still no Swedish kingdom in the early 13th century while we have a List of Swedish monarchs that begins with Eric the Victorious (10th century).--Berig 17:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

There were Swedish monarchs before him, but they were typically mentioned as kings over the Suiones. The English article Eric the Victorious mentions him as king over Swedes, but the Swedish article calls him Sveakung. As the reference given in the article describes it (and as I know Swedish history), Birger Jarl was the first to rule both Svealand and Götaland and therefore the first Swedish king in the modern sense of the word (i.e. the first king over what was to become the Kingdom of Sweden). That is, there were several kingdoms in present-day Sweden before Birger. I don't understand what is lost in translation.

/ Mats Halldin (talk) 18:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

We cannot and must not translate word for word from Swedish to English (no professional translator does that), and above all we have to handle each historian critically like they handle each other. There are several ways of understanding what the "kingdom of Sweden" is and I maintain that we have follow:

1) The mainstream regnal list of Sweden, where it is either Eric the Victorious or Olof Skötkonung who begin as "Kings of Sweden" in the 10th century. The only reason why it does not begin earlier with kings such as Björn at Haugi is that all the preceding sources are contradictory.

2) The mainstream translation of Svear into English, which is Swedes and Swedish, and this is something we have to abide by here.

The notion that is *one way* of defining the Sweden of the high middle ages, while there is another: Svearike/Svitjod=Sverige (my own point of view, BTW). Moreoever, the first king to rule Svealand and Götland is unfortunately unknown, and it was certainly not Birger Jarl.--Berig 18:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

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