Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cerejota (talk | contribs) at 00:15, 17 July 2007 (→Merge proposal: The Encyclopedia). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Merge proposal

It is extremely bad etiquette to remove a "merge" tag without discussion (in fact it is against the rules, but I don't feel like wikilawyering). Please do not remove the tag until a consensus develops either way.

If you oppose the proposal, you should discuss in the centralized thread in the {{mergeto}} article, in this case Allegations of apartheid. I will restore the tagging, and add a note in the correct thread. Thanks!--Cerejota 00:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You didn't state a reason for doing so, and the article is 14k long and almost 1900 words. It's far too big to merge. Please stop using tags as a weapon to deface articles you don't like. Jayjg 04:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, it is false that I did not provide a rationale. I did so here in the correct talk page, which is the talk page of the {{mergeto}} page. I ask you please apologize for misrepresenting me.--Cerejota 05:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I apologize. Jayjg 22:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Just don't lose your cool like that, it is embarassing to watch ;). You can be a hard ass, but I have learned that you are ultimately just with does with good faith. Thats freaking important if this is to be The Encyclopedia.--Cerejota 00:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Quote farm

Apparently to make the article appear more extensive than it actually is, extensive quotes have been added form single sources. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and attacks all quality principles of wikipedia. If we cleanup the quote farm, which is unnecesary, we are left with a good section for the parent article. Thanks!--Cerejota 04:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

A dozen good sources, all talking about different aspects of the same thing. Please stop defacing articles you don't like with spurious tags. Thanks. Jayjg 04:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, when did I say I didn't like this article, and why is placing a quote farm a spurious tag? The article doesn't meet quality standards, and that is what this tag is for. I suggest you calm down, man. Thanks!--Cerejota 05:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, why you didn't like my version, which was arguably more encyclopedic and less of a quotefarm, but kept all the sources you provided?--Cerejota 12:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The quotes added a great deal of information that wasn't captured in the summaries. Perhaps you can suggest some ways of shortening the quotes here that will still capture the meaning and intent and impact of the sources. Jayjg 22:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we work it together? I be honest with you, from my perspective quotes in general should be limited to a minimum, because they take away from the encyclopedic value. You obviously disagree, but appear willing to work it out, so I am happy to oblige.

I did include the one in the end because I tried four re-writes and still came out deeply unsatisfied with the results. I think my version doesn't minimize intent and impact of the sources, but ey of the beholder. I also think we should allow the encyclopedic voice its space. Since being balanced and un-biased is a given in wikipedia, as long as we are careful, I think we can do it fine. I have the proposed the same in other quotefarms.

Lets do something. I create a subpage in this talk page Talk:Allegations of French apartheid\UnquotedVersion, I put my version there, and we can discuss (and add edits, also by others, no this is my page- stay away here), and come up with some sort of consensus. I think it can work ok, as we both agree on notability and relvance of the sourced material. Thanks! --Cerejota 00:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

allegation of lies

France maintained colonial rule in the territory which has been described as "quasi-apartheid" this is stupid and totally false. there was no such things as US buses for black and white in algeria, besides algeria was truly part of france as made of département like today corsica. for example muslim children went in public schools with european french kids, i've seen worst apartheids. this view is a simplification by american editors, reads like all mslim in france are from algeria, but this totally false many comes from morroco and tunisia and black africa as well, all of which are former french colony or protectorates, there is not a single word about this. this article is totaly oriented and a mystification this can be seen in "Criticism"'s POV authors selection. this article doesn't exist in other language, don't ask why. Paris By Night 09:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Paris By Night, you have to understand the background. This is a prank article. The people writing it have no interest in or knowledge about France or even racial discrimination. Weird as it sounds, this article is a WP:POINT extension of disputes within the Israel-Palestine sections of Misplaced Pages. As you probably know, there has long been a heated debate among scholars, journalists and public figures involving comparisons between the Israeli occupation and South African apartheid, from ethical and historical perspectives, but also from strategic perspectives (with regards to Israel's demographic concerns, for example, and the international community's search for a just and pragmatic solution). Ardent Israeli nationalist editors object to the very existence of the article Allegations of Israeli apartheid, but haven't found much support for their cause, so they've come up with the novel strategy you're now encountering. They've googled around to see if the word "apartheid" has ever been used, even only rhetorically or in passing, in connection with other societies and government policies. When they find two or more such citations, they create one of these prank articles to house them. If you try to get this article deleted, they'll try to recruit you to join them in their opposition to the Israel article, making clear that the article you care about is a hostage to the one they care about.--G-Dett 15:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everything G-Dett is saying here except two things.

1) This is not a prank article. It exists to inform people on how rhetoric is used in political debates about discrimination. If Misplaced Pages decides that political rhetoric like this doesn't deserve its own article, then we can work on creating a stricter notability guideline.

2) I am not not adding these articles to make a WP:POINT, but rather to inform people that ridiculous rhetoric is used in every debate about discrimination/politics. Because Misplaced Pages has decided such rhetoric is worthy of articles, then can you really blame us for not wanting Misplaced Pages to single out Israel and Cuba for abusive rhetoric? It's an NPOV issue to me, at least.--Urthogie 16:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

article is undergoing AFD proposal

Can we continue this debate after the AFD result comes in? Thanks, --Urthogie 14:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)