Talk:Holocaust denial - Misplaced Pages

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Holocaust denial has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 6, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 11, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
December 27, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

Jewish history GA‑class Top‑importance

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Some discussions to note: Some topics have been discussed multiple times on this talk page. It is suggested that editors review these previous discussions before re-raising issues, so as to save time and cut down on repetition.

If you want to argue that Holocaust Denial should be called Holocaust Revisionism, please read (not an exhaustive list): , , , , ,
If you want to argue about the Auschwitz Plaque, please read: , , , and the appropriate section in the Auschwitz article.
If you want to argue that "most historians" or "almost all historians" do not reject Holocaust Denial, please read: ,

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20
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Please add new comments to the bottom of the page.

Biased

This article is way too biased to a pro-Zionist POV. I am not a troll — don't call me that, but I, and any fool could tell this is a POV article. I as a Holocaust revisionist think that this article states clearly that the term "Holocaust revisionism" is an anti-Semitic term. It is not. This article is so in bed with Zionist lies. It needs to be desperately reworked. Idaltonrand talk 21:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

You can help to make this article little bit better, undoing revertions of my edits. I am trying to remove POV from here. But, of course while such guys like Jpgordon are admins here, there is little hope:)--Igor "the Otter" 18:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Which Zionist lies would these be? --jpgordon 00:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
This is my dear friend Ionas68224 who is currently blocked for disrupting an RFC of which I am a subject. As such, let's leave this be, as his ideas have been skewed by the minds of the Misplaced Pages Review—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Demographics

I keep reading about comparisons between pre-war and post-war census data which supposedly proves that approximately 6 million Jews were killed, but the truth is the article/s don't state what Europe's Jewish population was prior to WWII. The reason I am asking is this: I've has the chance of reading some old NYT articles, from before WWII (like from the late 1930s,etc) which always mention some sort of perilious situation that same number of people find themselves in. Not wanting to be biased, we could assume 6 million was the number of Jews in the area, in Central Europe. That can't be right because there are still survivors today. Even if the writers saying 6 million lives were at stake meant the whole population, the Nazis would have killed all Jews in Europe, which didn't happen. So, why does the 6 million figure show up a decade before WWII? -- Ishikawa Minoru 23:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

We'd have to see your exact sources to really answer this. --jpgordon 00:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- In particular, it is unlikely that the NYT in the 30s would include Polish, Russian, Norwegian, and Romanian Jews it its count. --Stephan Schulz 11:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to “Nazi Publicity Here Held Smoke Screen”, New York Times, June 25, 1940, which says that "Six million Jews in Europe are doomed to destruction, if the victory of Nazis should be final". I had one or two more from that time period, but I couldn't find them.

Nevertheless, looking up the archives I found "JEWS INDIFFERENCE TO WAR AID REBUKED" from Jan. 14, 1915, which states that "there are about 13,000,000 Jews, of whom more than 6,000,000 are in the heart of the war zone".

Maybe it's an incorrect assumption, but why is this same number popping up everywhere?

Furthermore, how many Jews were there in the World in 1915, then 1920 and finally before WWII? Deniers or Revisionists or whatever you want to call them state that the World Almanac of 1920 states that there are 10 million Jews in Europe. Is this true? And what was the number of people in the "war zone"? Because the article talks about Russia and Poland, so I can't easily accept the facts would fit such a 'dramatic', to say the least, appeal. -- Ishikawa Minoru 16:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

As our article states, there were about 8-10 million Jews in the areas under Nazi control. June 1940 would be after the start of WW2, with half of Poland already occupied, France about to fall, but the German-Soviet war more than a year off. Looking at The War Against the Jews, I see about 4.5-5 million Jews in countries at least partially occupied by the Axis in June 1940, and about 3 million more in the Soviet union and the Baltic states. There are also about half a million in allied countries in Europe. So depending on what you consider "final victory", you can come up with a large number of plausible numbers. Of course, this also depends on which definition of "Jew" you use. For the Nazis, one Jewish grandparent made you a half Jew, and two made you a Jew (not great at arithmetic they were, Yoda declared), while the traditional Jewish definition requires a Jewish mother. So again, there is plenty of wiggle room. --Stephan Schulz 17:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

So, what do you make of this? How could he be so sure of the 6 million figure? -- Ishikawa Minoru 17:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to the NYT author? We don't know how sure he was - we only have a headline. We would need to see the full article (and even then probably could not reconstruct his sources). But there are only so many round millions, so simple coincidence is an adequate (if unsatisfactory) explanation. --Stephan Schulz 17:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You can purchase the articles online. They're not very expensive. One annoying thing about said purchases is the fact, in recent times, you seem to have to wait a lenghty period of time before actually being able to read/download the full article... -- Ishikawa Minoru 18:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No strong desire (and transatlantic payments may be more complex, anyways). It's an open question I can well live with.--Stephan Schulz 20:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

2 Jpgordon That wasn't me who started the edit war you are talking about. I explained myself. Squiddy did not.--Igor "the Otter" 15:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Predetermined conclusion 3

I changed the intro based on the following insight... the references do not say that the "hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy" is a "predetermined conclusion". The one reference that mentions "predetermined conclusion" mentions "revisionism" which presumably refers to Holocaust denial. Thus, it is Holocaust denial which is the "predetermined conclusion", NOT the "hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy". Now, some of you will argue that "most Holocaust deniers imply or openly state that Holocaust denial is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy" and thus if Holocaust denial is a "predetermined conclusion" then, so too, is the hoax also a "predetermined conclusion". This may be true. I certainly believe it. However, since our current references don't say it that way, linking characterizing the "hoax" as a "predetermined conclusion" is possibly a "synthesis of published material" which borders on being OR unless someone can find a source that makes this linkage explicitly.

I know this may seem like splitting hairs. Nonetheless, I think my rewrite is more precise and does not create the difficulty that the previous text did.

--Richard 07:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm being dense here, but I don't see the distinction. Holocaust denial is the phenomenon of denying the holocaust... the 'predetermined conclusion' (or "preconceived result" as the reference has it) is that the holocaust never happened, ie it was a hoax. "Holocaust denial" is just a noun. Having said that, I wouldn't argue with your edit ;) EyeSerene 12:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It is possible to deny the Holocaust without claiming that the denial is a "hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy". One could argue that the statistics are simply inflated because of the destruction of German records and that the postwar animus against the Nazis made it easy to blame them for everything bad that happened even when the Soviets were really responsible.

Now, I will accept that "most Holocaust deniers imply or directly state" that the Holocaust is a "hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy". All I'm saying is that the quotes don't support the assertion that the "hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy" is a "predetermined conclusion".

Perhaps we could find a reliable source that says this more explicitly. What we're looking for is someone who will say that Holocaust deniers have predetermined the conclusion that the Holocaust did not happen BECAUSE they believe that there is a "deliberate Jewish conspiracy". As I've said, I believe the assertion. It's just not supported by the sources quoted in the article.

--Richard 15:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, with you now. The 'predetermined conclusion' could be any of a number of different, unspecified conclusions (which we can't cite because the source in non-specific). As you have it in the text, it relates more to denial methodology than any single claim. I read your earlier comment as saying that HD was itself the predetermined conclusion, and was confused about the logic of that. Thanks for the clarification! EyeSerene 15:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The way Richard changed the head section it seems much better, but not good enough still. The phrase "The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are often criticized as based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores extensive historical evidence to the contrary" must be moved to the section about criticizm. The phrase "Scholars, however, prefer the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from legitimate historical revisionists who use established historical methodologies." must be changed also for this is open POV. Only western (and assotiated with them) mainstream scholars think so. This seems too fixed at western culture IMHO. Any suggestions?--Igor "the Otter" 19:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

If you're the one saying there's a problem (without actually using a source to show why it's a problem), shouldn't you also be the one to offer a solution? 64.95.27.5 21:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)sean

OK, I'll try. I moved one phrase into criticism section and deleted another one ("Scholars, however, prefer the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from legitimate historical revisionists who use established historical methodologies") because the entire term "denial" is misleading and that phrase infers also that revisionists ("deniers") are not scholars themselves. In any case there is already the section about terminology. In my opinion, this article must be renamed Into "Holocaust revisionism (denial by it's opponents)". I explained my position in the section "Predetermined conclusion (AEB)".--Igor "the Otter" 04:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

2 EyeSerene Reverted to revision 150347499 by Richardshusr; you have no consensus for this edit - please stop removing this sentence. using TW OK, let us try to make consensus. But strange enough, why you don't say it on the talk page? What do you propose? If you will ignore this talk page, I'll have no choise but just to restore my version.--Igor "the Otter" 20:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

At which point you will be in immediate risk of being blocked for edit warring. I suggest you refrain from doing so. --jpgordon 20:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Hm. Interesting enough, why that is me, who will be blocked? Why don't you block those who reverted my edits? I'm understand, you don't like things I say about Holocaust Revisionism (Denial if you like), but if you have nothing to answer, then let my version remain. Or try to make consensus, like I do.--Igor "the Otter" 20:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think, it will be better if you restore my version youself. How do you think?--Igor "the Otter" 20:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say I'll block you; it would be improper, as I am involved in this discussion. One of the other thousand or so admins will do so. Since you know you lack consensus for your change, to make the change is edit warring. --jpgordon 20:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

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